Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[Macchiato]

Fu gurl i remember the post and video when you used Zeldawful to beat Yoshi so you do still dabble in her sometimes despite your loyalties to Pallyterrible.

he's a gorl, he'll drop paluterrible in months

 

[A_Kae]

Hello, Zelda mains. The Marth boards have begun discussion on the Zelda matchup. If you have any input to add, or wish to fight against a Marth player for matchup knowledge, please join us.

http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-zelda-matchup-discussion-and-analysis.416331/

 

[Thinktron]

So for pikachu, Ironically i think pikachus best attribute in this match-up is its size, ill admit i wasn't to much of a fan of this match-up at first, i found him to nimble and had a hard time dealing with his air game, I found mastering my forward tilt essential, as its a good sharp way to keep him back, of course the basic smash knowledge applies in this match-up as well, Reflect, use phantom to wall him out, and elevator kills so early on him its actually rather amusing.

That being said i don't know to to deal with quick attack, i cant punish it and i often see pika's using it as a stage control option, i often throw out neutral attacks to catch him but with no effect, I know its weak damage wise, but i wish we could a quick option to truly counter it

other than that arguably useless thing that probability is just me not knowing how to deal with it aside, i think this matchup is fine for both sides, really shows how balanced this game can be

Id say minor pichu pickachu PICHUACHU..... yellow pokemon mascot advantage

-
55-- 45

 

[Macchiato]

Here's a video of the MU

Nairo uses Zelda at 4:05

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Here's a video of the MU

Nairo uses Zelda at 4:05

that grounded Dair>Elevator doe

 

[Underhill]

vs: I faced a tough Zelda player on Smash Ladder and it was rough, but I think the MU is slighty in Pikachu's favor by 55:45.

: Once Pikachu is up close in which he wins at, Its hard for Zelda to shake him off. Lighting kicks can be difficult to hit Pikachu and dangerous as well because he's small and he can punish you badly if spot-dodge and reads it. Pikachu wins in the air since his attacks are fast along with better frame data. Pikachu's mobility is better along with superious approaches and a better projectile. You can get juggled by Pikachu since he's fast, and Zelda's landing options aren't safe. Even though Zelda's kill power is better, Pikachu can kill Zelda as well with up smash and forward smash because she's light and floaty. Aside from d-tile and down-b, Zelda's options aren't good enough to stop or force Pikachu to approach; Also she has to approach him, too which sucks for her because she only has dash attack and grab, and Farore's Wind which are limited and has to go with fox and dance trot for mix ups. Pikachu's edgeguarding is better since Zelda's recovery is predictable and it can be hit out of her teleport on the startup if timed right.

: Zelda's range, Nayru's Love, and Phantom Slash are enough to keep Pikachu out since his range lacks compare to her. Phantom Slash beats QA. Pikachu can have trouble killing you so you can abuse her rage and get a early kill off of him. Farore's wind can used to get a early kill(if sweetspotted with enough percent or near the top blast zone), for a surprise attack, and as a Out-of-shield option. If you read a skull bash, you can spike him down with Zelda's down-air. Use Nayru's Love against Pikachu's thunder off-stage to stage spike him if he tries to gimp you with it. Also you can use her Nayru's Love if he tries to finish you with a thunder set up when you di. Even though lighting kicks are dangerous against Pikachu if missed, it can still be a threat to Pikachu when you get him to 90% or if he gets too greedy for combos.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Hey any Zelda gorls wanna help the boards and give knowledge on Zelda?
Some aren't sure about the MU so if any would be nice enough to help them then that would be good
@ Zylach or @ Macchiato or @ JigglyZelda003 , you girls got some info?
http://smashboards.com/threads/pacm...iscussion-thread.370926/page-22#post-20088497

 

[Macchiato]

Hey any Zelda gorls wanna help the boards and give knowledge on Zelda?
Some aren't sure about the MU so if any would be nice enough to help them then that would be good
@ Zylach or @ Macchiato or @ JigglyZelda003 , you girls got some info?
http://smashboards.com/threads/pacm...iscussion-thread.370926/page-22#post-20088497

I really have no knowledge on Pacman so this is one of those MUs I can't help on

 

[KarmaCastle]

Here's a video of the MU

Nairo uses Zelda at 4:05

Nairo video.

Commentators: "Why does it look easy, the man just took it down a couple of tiers" "Yes he just went to S tier with Zelda. As in Struggle tier."

The bias against Zelda is so bad this is why I feel like even if she got buffed to godly levels nobody would acknowledge it unless Zero himself made a public announcement at EVO and mained her. Even then I'm beyond confident we'd only hear "player skill > tier lists bro she still garbage."

ANYWAYS.

The pikachu matchup is obnoxious if for no other reason than quick attack. His cute little projectiles hardly matter in the matchup, but he's so fast it's hard to punish and catch a good Pikachu if they keep moving. A punishable quick attack to the other half of the character roster is impossible for us to do anything about.

Cus we're literally slower than Bowser.



Unless you count hard reading with a FW2 a punish.

I was going to say 40-60 until I remembered we can reflect and follow up thunder.

45:55

 

[Zylach]

Hey any Zelda gorls wanna help the boards and give knowledge on Zelda?
Some aren't sure about the MU so if any would be nice enough to help them then that would be good
@ Zylach or @ Macchiato or @ JigglyZelda003 , you girls got some info?
http://smashboards.com/threads/pacm...iscussion-thread.370926/page-22#post-20088497

I can try. I've literally never faced a Pacman outside of FG though lol.

 

[Strong-Arm]

I've fought a couple of local Pikachu players. While I haven't fought them enough for an in depth analysis of the match up I can say that nair, nayrus love, jab, and f-tilt are all really useful here. If they start spamming aireal or grounded jolt then just reflect it. Typically they go in for a grab so use ftilt, or jab to knock them away or dtilt into a dash grab. When Pika gets in its pretty hard for her to get away so typically I go for a lot of n-air since imo its one of her best moves in general. I'll have to check more tonight with my online friends.

 

[Daidarapochi]

I've fought a couple of local Pikachu players. While I haven't fought them enough for an in depth analysis of the match up I can say that nair, nayrus love, jab, and f-tilt are all really useful here. If they start spamming aireal or grounded jolt then just reflect it. Typically they go in for a grab so use ftilt, or jab to knock them away or dtilt into a dash grab. When Pika gets in its pretty hard for her to get away so typically I go for a lot of n-air since imo its one of her best moves in general. I'll have to check more tonight with my online friends.

I don't trust jab to defend me here, it likes to not hit Pika if he's doing anything but standing still.

 

[Rickster]

Tbh against Pikachu I don't trust Jab, Grab, Ftilt, or Dash Attack since they've all failed me at some point. Hell, even Utilt and Usmash have missed. I think this MU is horrifying for us just because our safest moves/most useful moves randomly whiff. And that's before I even get into the juggling and frame data problems...

 

[Zylach]

Jab is still useful but not as much as dtilt. Jab will still stop Pika's grab attempts which he wants to do often. Grab is risky since Pika can duck under it and it's mostly used as an OoS option and punishing Pika's attacks from shield is difficult enough before you consider our grab comes out frame 10. Ftilt isn't trustworthy is most MU's. Dash Attack, however, I find to be very useful especially against Pika's that like to QA often. If Pika messes up the spacing of his QA's by even a slight amount, we can actually punish with a dash attack. Don't use it unless you're using it as a mobile punish tool because Pika will shield grab it every time you use it unsafely.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Dash attack in general is Zelda's best mobile punish. it also hits low enough to hit characters like Pika.

 

[Rickster]

I swear Dash Attack has missed before...it think it was right after they landed one of his aerials. It just went right over him.

 

[Zylach]

I swear Dash Attack has missed before...it think it was right after they landed one of his aerials. It just went right over him.

You're thinking of his bair. His bair landing makes him on par with Jiggs, G&W, and WFT for shortest hurtbox in the game.

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...IC7qHJJi-msSzsQrQ&sig2=FIsTfuK6iXEY8nwm3p2sww were discussing zelda and the crew and would love your input

 

[DavemanCozy]

Does anyone feel like discussing the Fox MU again?
vs
http://smashboards.com/threads/all-...on-thread-palutena-falco-zelda.393061/page-10
^Link to the Fox MU thread

 

[Zylach]

Have we just stopped discussing MU's now? JigglyZelda003 , tell me you're not dead!

I suppose, if people wanted, our next MU was against Zard so we can discuss it and actually get some input on something.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Can we maybe do 2 characters? Maybe there would be many more discussions if that were the case, though that's just me.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Have we just stopped discussing MU's now? JigglyZelda003 , tell me you're not dead!

I suppose, if people wanted, our next MU was against Zard so we can discuss it and actually get some input on something.

Lol no I'm not dead. I've been a tad busy as of late and let discussion slump for a bit slightly waiting for possible new patch to add characters cause our recent discussions have had fewer and fewer people coming from other boards commentating. I was hoping an update would jump start smashboards back up lol.

Can we maybe do 2 characters? Maybe there would be many more discussions if that were the case, though that's just me.

I mean we could try that but it could also make reading difficult if not everyone notes what character they are talking about first. But we could try it perhaps. If others would like to.

Charizard is now evolved. We will try two characters next week to finish out the Pokemon set and see how it goes.

I remember way back somebody, probably Kuro, said Charizard asses Zelda out cause Nair beats her everything. While I haven't fought Charizard outside of WiFi so I dont have any real big knowledge of this matchup.

Phantom is great here because it sneaks in and swats him from farther than he can reach Zelda. I find alot of Phantom use to be good because other than Nair Charizards Dtilt and Jab tend to be frustrating for Zelda to move in on because they are fast.

 

[Underhill]

Charizard is now evolved. We will try two characters next week to finish out the Pokemon set and see how it goes.

I remember way back somebody, probably Kuro, said Charizard ***** Zelda out cause Nair beats her everything. While I haven't fought Charizard outside of WiFi so I dont have any real big knowledge of this matchup.

Phantom is great here because it sneaks in and swats him from farther than he can reach Zelda. I find alot of Phantom use to be good because other than Nair Charizards Dtilt and Jab tend to be frustrating for Zelda to move in on because they are fast.

Are you doing the characters by order? I can't to share some info on Jigglypuff.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Are you doing the characters by order? I can't to share some info on Jigglypuff.

Lol yes we are according to the Wii U character screw so Jiggly and arollycario are next week but feel free to post if you would like lol

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Hey, Zard here. From what I've seen in my limited experience verses Zeldas, it seems to be in Zard's favor. Zard's fast moves (up smash, jabs) have proven troublesome against Zelda and because Zelda is so light Zard can really benefit from rage if Zelda gets some hits on. However, I've noticed that Zard is really easy to sweetspot moves against. Edgeguarding Zard when he tries to recover is probably the best chance Zelda has, since his disadvantaged state is sub par at best. Also, don't get grabbed. Zard's p good out of a grab.

Haven't played against any Zeldas since the shield stun change though. That would probably effect the matchup in Zelda's favor because Zard doesn't benefit much off of it (except easier shield breaks on Rock Smash, watch out when you don't have a full shield.) In 1.1.0, I'd rate the matchup probably 40:60 Zard favor. If Zelda does get some good off of this patch, it'd probably change the matchup to 45:55 Zard favor or 50:50, depending on how helpful Shield Stun is to Zelda.

EDIT: Also, don't try to challenge Zard's Flare Blitz. At all. It would be very difficult to get the hurtbox unless you had an item, which Zelda doesn't. Phantom is probably the best bet, but if you release too early, you still get hit by the launching hitbox of Flare Blitz, even if Phantom takes the first hit.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

EDIT: Also, don't try to challenge Zard's Flare Blitz. At all. It would be very difficult to get the hurtbox unless you had an item, which Zelda doesn't. Phantom is probably the best bet, but if you release too early, you still get hit by the launching hitbox of Flare Blitz, even if Phantom takes the first hit.

Phantom can block flareblitz but dies in the process so unless Zelda positioned it so Charizard hit it on purpose its better to just block or avoid Flare Blitz all together lol. depending on where Zard is after Flare Blitz it is possible to Faroes into him sometimes.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

I don't know how the Zelda boards talk about their stuff but I'm here for the Charizard discussion (I play both of these characters so I feel like I know some things about this). First, Charizard beats Zelda on-stage while Zelda crushes Charizard offstage. Din's Fire will be of little use on-stage, more than likely, Charizard's speed will make him hard to hit unless the Zelda gets a read, Flare Blitz also armors through the sourspot of Din's Fire by the way. This is one of the few match ups where Charizard is more often than not the aggressor, unfortunately for Zelda, it's going to be hard to zone Charizard on the stage, and his down throw combos are guaranteed at lower percents. Also, a tip for the Zeldas, don't challenge Charizard's up air, he has intangibility on his head or something, though it is quite slow. Now for the main way Zelda will be netting kills, offstage, Charizard's only defenses are Fly and FB, sometimes forward aerial, but if Zelda attacks from above, Charizard will die unless he perfectly times Fly, he could use Rock Smash, but it has some endlag, so Zelda essentially rules the air with her three Lightning Kicks. Charizard, like everyone, has difficulty edgeguarding Zelda due to her intangibility during Farore's Wind (though the stage might jank her to death with those teleport rules). Sadly, Zelda lacks in kill power, and Charizard's armor I'd say it's slightly in Charizard's favor, a soft counter to be precise. I truly wish Zelda was better, but she lacks kill power outside of the Lightning Kicks.
EDIT:Use the elevator to kill, it's pretty good.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Din's Fire will be of little use on-stage, more than likely, Charizard's speed will make him hard to hit unless the Zelda gets a read,Flare Blitz also armors through the sourspot of Din's Fire by the way.

Dins in general isn't the best move to use too much but Charizards size makes it easier to hit him with Dins (most of Zelda's moves actually) be it blocked or direct hit. Charizard in general its not really safe to toss out Dins against anyway unless he's all the way across the stage or offstage since he could yolo Flare Blitz at any other point non fullscreen.

Flare Blitz tanks Zelda's kicks anyhow so it's best if Zelda doesn't challenge that move offensively.

This is one of the few match ups where Charizard is more often than not the aggressor, unfortunately for Zelda, it's going to be hard to zone Charizard on the stage, and his down throw combos are guaranteed at lower percents.

I've fought turtle Zards before so i think it depends on the player even though turtling works well against Zelda if she gets behind because she's not the best rusher.

when do Charizards combos stop working? i have fought very few charizards and most have been turtles so i haven't seen these combos.

Sadly, Zelda lacks in kill power, and Charizard's armor I'd say it's slightly in Charizard's favor, a soft counter to be precise. I truly wish Zelda was better, but she lacks kill power outside of the Lightning Kicks.
EDIT:Use the elevator to kill, it's pretty good.

Charizard is heavy so other than Elevator he takes a while to die by other methods not Elevator or gimp but Zelda does not lack in power at all. most of her moveset is kill moves and Zard can die like any other heavy weight in the mid 100s even earlier if Zelda has rage.

 

[Zylach]

I don't know how the Zelda boards talk about their stuff but I'm here for the Charizard discussion (I play both of these characters so I feel like I know some things about this). First, Charizard beats Zelda on-stage while Zelda crushes Charizard offstage. Din's Fire will be of little use on-stage, more than likely, Charizard's speed will make him hard to hit unless the Zelda gets a read, Flare Blitz also armors through the sourspot of Din's Fire by the way. This is one of the few match ups where Charizard is more often than not the aggressor, unfortunately for Zelda, it's going to be hard to zone Charizard on the stage, and his down throw combos are guaranteed at lower percents. Also, a tip for the Zeldas, don't challenge Charizard's up air, he has intangibility on his head or something, though it is quite slow. Now for the main way Zelda will be netting kills, offstage, Charizard's only defenses are Fly and FB, sometimes forward aerial, but if Zelda attacks from above, Charizard will die unless he perfectly times Fly, he could use Rock Smash, but it has some endlag, so Zelda essentially rules the air with her three Lightning Kicks. Charizard, like everyone, has difficulty edgeguarding Zelda due to her intangibility during Farore's Wind (though the stage might jank her to death with those teleport rules). Sadly, Zelda lacks in kill power, and Charizard's armor I'd say it's slightly in Charizard's favor, a soft counter to be precise. I truly wish Zelda was better, but she lacks kill power outside of the Lightning Kicks.
EDIT:Use the elevator to kill, it's pretty good.

Not to sound rude, but the moment you say Zelda lacks in kill power, I know you aren't aware of Zelda's kit. That's basically all she is. Ftilt, Fsmash, Usmash, fair, bair, dair, uair, phantom, FW. Also, Din's is just bad. Zelda should never use this move outside of an offstage gimp tool or if she knows she can't get punished for it (i.e. across the majority of FD which won't do anything because shields exist lol).

This MU is even imo. A very good friend of mine, Nightwing, here in Wisconsin plays a mean customs Zard. He's also my training partner so I've faced Zard a lot with Zelda. Seeing as customs aren't part of the meta anymore, however, I'll be discussing the default MU which is better for Zelda than customs (dragon rush and rising cyclone make this a painful MU in customs). There are two main problems Zelda has in this MU on stage and that's Zard's nair and his dtilt. Since Zard's nair autocancels, it's very difficult to punish since Zard can follow up with either a shield or a jab depending on what he suspects Zelda's punish will be (If she decides to punish. She shouldn't). I've had a lot of trouble with Zard's dtilt especially when I'm up against the ledge because it has very little endlag on it so it's difficult for her to get around it especially when Zard has such a quick fair to deny her a jump over and a nair to cover a roll. Her only real option is to outspace it with something like a downward angeled ftilt or quick phantom.

Zard, on the other hand, is fairly easy to combo for Zelda and she can get dthrow>nair>Lkicks easier on him than a lot of the cast because of his weight. Zard, however, has dthrow>fair which stops working on Zelda at around 40-50%. Zelda can DI up and away to get out of it early because she's light. Zelda can continue her dthrow combos on Zard up until kill percents thanks to dthrow>uair (stage dependent on whether or not it kills). Zelda also combos falling nair into usmash very easily on Zard since he's big and falling nair into elevator like she can on everyone.

Flare blitz should always be a non-issue. The startup is predictable, it's beaten out hard by shield, and it allows for kill punishes like Lkicks and elevators. Do not use flare blitz unless it's an immaculate baited airdodge punish.

Zelda should avoid being in the air in this MU except for punishes, followups, or safe empty hops. Zard's air game is a lot better than hers with his disjointed fair and nair coverage. The only thing Zelda has is uair when Zard is above her. She just can't be greedy because Zard's dair can hurt. Also, Zard has amazing anti-airs in utilt, usmash, and uair.

Offstage, both characters can be tricky to edgeguard since Zelda has a teleport and Zard has multiple jumps as well as 2 separate options for recovering, both of which have armor on them I believe (I dunno if fly does but rising cyclone does I'm certain). Zard can use flamethrower to deny Zelda the ledge however. Most likely, it'll simply tack on damage though but it's troublesome and annoying.

Phantom is one of Zelda's best spacing options in this MU since Zard has no real projectiles to pressure her with and doesn't have the speed to rush her down as she's charging from a backwards SH (How Zelda should always be using phantom unless she needs the B-reverse/wavebounce). It also covers all ledge getup options when spaced and timed well. I prefer using phantom against Zard when he's recovering as opposed to going offstage for a kill since his multijumps and quick up-B are kinda difficult to deal with though I suspect a Nayru's Love offstage can be enough of a semispike to gimp him (I'm still experimenting with offstage Nayru's gimps treating it kinda like Luigi Cyclone).

Zard can kill Zelda early but she can do the same to him and she can do it with kill setups like dtilt>fair or RAR bair, falling nair>elevator, and dthrow>uair or aerial elevator if the Zelda player is skilled enough (I still try to bait an airdodge into elevator myself).

50:50

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

She can't kill Charizard without the elevator though, not as easily as Charizard kills her. Or maybe I'm just used to the fighters with absurd power...I actually haven't used Zelda in a while.

 

[Zylach]

She can't kill Charizard without the elevator though, not as easily as Charizard kills her. Or maybe I'm just used to the fighters with absurd power...I actually haven't used Zelda in a while.

Both fair and bair kill him around 100% from the middle of BF. Usmash will kill him around 110% in the same spot. Uair will kill him around 110% as well from a dthrow. Rage only lowers those numbers for her. I mean, she's got the heaviest hitting fair and bair in the game so long as they're sweetspotted.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

I hate to be a party pooper, but, while her horizontal aerials are strong, the winners of those awards go to Captain Falcon and max aura Lucario respectively. But while that certainly is strong, Charizard is still killing earlier with Flare Blitz and Fly. But Zelda does have one advantage in the killing department, her kill moves, while by no means Shiek or Diddy levels of safe (for the love of *insert Nintendo god/goddess here* Sakurai, nerf them) she can't be punished nearly as hard as Charizard can. Best way for Zelda to win is to bait a kill move then use one of her own.

 

[Zylach]

I hate to be a party pooper, but, while her horizontal aerials are strong, the winners of those awards go to Captain Falcon and max aura Lucario respectively. But while that certainly is strong, Charizard is still killing earlier with Flare Blitz and Fly. But Zelda does have one advantage in the killing department, her kill moves, while by no means Shiek or Diddy levels of safe (for the love of *insert Nintendo god/goddess here* Sakurai, nerf them) she can't be punished nearly as hard as Charizard can. Best way for Zelda to win is to bait a kill move then use one of her own.

Ok, you caught me on not knowing KB stats of everyone's fair and bair but they're still top 5 in KB I know that much. I agree with you on your next comment as well. Baiting a laggy move out of Charizard will net her more kills than the reverse though both characters benefit from baiting stuff like airdodges and rolls and such. I will also admit that I don't know how safe Zard's attacks are on shield now given the new patch. I know Zelda could punish moves like ftilt after shielding it. I'm not so sure if the patch has helped poor Zard in that respect (Especially bair).

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

It hasn't really helped either of them much, lol. I actually played a bit of Zelda today and seemed to be doing well, though I might have been facing really bad players, anything goes on For Glory. Anyway, I think her up air could be useful in this matchup, it's a really strong move, one of the strongest of its type, I found most kills netted from it were from baiting an airdodge. Hopefully both of these low tiers get buffed in 1.1.2 and then they can be smashing Diddies and Shieks alike.
EDIT: Oh and I'll be talking here even after the Zard discussion from now on, I might learn a few things.

 

[Macchiato]

just like Zylach, I think it's even.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

So we are going to double up this week with Jigglypuff and Rollycario.

vs I consider this matchup mostly even although I haven't played it for a long time but u doubt the patches have changed much about this match. As it still depends highly on your footsie game and whoever gets the lead first. Zelda has the power and the priority to box out jiggly but jiggly has the flexibility to wiggle around Zelda and can chase her offstage with very little fear.

vs I feel this matchup is even. Rollycario is safer for this patch but I still feel like with safe play Zelda can still win. We don't have to worry too much about AS or aura rage in general because as long as Zelda keeps up with damage she is strong enough to revenge kill lucario if she happens to die first. And if she gets the first KO it makes it easier to finish off Lucario because until he gets back Aura rage he can't kill her.

 

[Underhill]

vs: This MU is even for both and I play both of them. In the neutral, you want to stay in the ground and space, bait, out-priority, give Jigglypuff trouble appoarching if you can, and mix up your appoarches. Don't challenge Jigglypuff in the air because of her superior air game and air speed so be alittle patient while appoarching slowly and keeping up with her landings. Plus, its hard to hit Jigglypuff with lighting kicks so you'll get punished along with a rest. However, those kicks can still hurt Jigglypuff and will even kill her early. Phantom knight can be useful, but only for spacing, zoning, and even pressuring off stage. Be careful of the rest because if you're at 60% or higher and make the wrong move, then you'll be eating a hard punish. Your up-air may help for jiggling, catching air dodge reads, and get a early kill under 100%, but don't make yourself a easy target for her to bait and punish if you miss or dodged. Use up-smash not only for killing, but even as an anti-air move and jiggling tool along with mix ups for predicting, baiting, and catching her landing. Up-tile as well if needed. Don't forget that since you're floaty and don't have good landings, then you'll also get jiggled by her air speed, pound, and aerials so watch out and don't get read. Your up-b may get you a early off of Jigglypuff if you play your cards right with Oos, mindgames, and hit her up vertical and getting the kill off the screen. While Jigglypuff can gimp you off stage because of Zelda's predictable recovery if you don't mix up, Zelda can hit Jigglypuff from the ledge since Jigglypuff can't grab the ledge, fast from her jumps so down smash, forward smash, down-tile, forward-tile, neutral b, and maybe down-air for a read off the ledge if you're lucky. Don't challenge Jigglypuff off stage too much because Zelda's air game is not good against Jigglypuff's and down-air is all she has for gimps so you might set yourself for a gimp or kill, be careful. While Zelda can kill better, out priority, has range, and even benefits from rage, Jigglypuff air game is superior, can escape combos more than we can since she's short, floaty, light, and Zelda's tall, fights better off-stage. Both can jiggle each other, both are floaty and light, and can appoarch each other.

 

[Zylach]

I'll start with Jiggles. I think this MU is slightly in Zelda's favor.

What Jiggles has that we struggle against: Air game. Zelda should never be in the air in this MU unless she's going for a punish or a followup from dthrow (Jiggles is light so almost nothing is guaranteed from this so bait airdodges if possible, otherwise just use fthrow for a quick 12%). Zelda will almost never land Lkicks in this MU since Jiggles is so small and has too much speed and manueverablity in the air for our precise moves to land. The only aerials that should ever be useful here are nair, uair, and dair while offstage.

What Zelda has against Jiggles: Ground and OoS game. While Jiggles is usually able to safely space aerials against our shield without any threat of retaliation, she also can't do a whole lot to force us out of shield. Her ground speed won't let her cover the distance necessary to catch us with a surprise dash grab which is what Zelda is so susceptible to (See the Capt. Falcon MU) and the shield pressure from her aerials isn't enough to force us to recharge our shield for any lengthy amount of time. Yes, she has pound to do a lot of shield damage but pound is also fairly punishable by our quick anti-airs which are key to this MU. Since Jiggles lacks significant disjoints on her aerials, Zelda's anti-airs become very effective, especially utilt since its speed means we'll be fairly safe even if we whiff (Obviously, this doesn't mean we're unpunishable).

Offstage, Zelda definitely has an advantage as Jiggles has no means to instantly snap to the ledge other than smartly using her jumps. While her multiple jumps are a problem for getting dair kills, we can still apply pressure with nair and NL plus footstools do a lot of damage to Jiggles' recovery. Meanwhile, all Jiggles can do against our recovery is hold a nair by the ledge in the hopes of catching our snap back and proper timing on FW can make this less of a threat. Plus, we can hold down so we don't snap to the ledge and catch her in the reappear hitbox though it's tricky to pull off when recovering as it requires proper timing and spacing lest we SD.

55:45

As for Lucario, I have faced one of MN's best players, Z2G, who plays Lucario and am currently 1 and 1 with him in tournaments. That said, I don't like the Lucario MU because of his ability to kill us at horrifically low percents given rage aura. He's got guaranteed combos like uthrow>nair/uair/fair and getting hit with a jab 1 can get us force palmed which will kill us at 50% if he has rage aura. Zelda doesn't have great spacing tools against him as he has a lot of disjoints on his attacks, especially in the air, but he is fairly punishable. A smart Lucario shouldn't be using any of his smash attacks unless he's absolutely certain that they'll land and he also won't be finishing his jab combo unless he's absolutely certain it'll land. We can still punish moves like ftilt and utilt but a lot of Lucario's main tools will keep him safe from our punishes. Even whiffed grabs are hard to punish.

That said, Lucario does have some trouble when he's at low percents since he has no kill potential until about 50% and nothing to get out of combos since he's floaty enough to never land>shield stuff like dtilt>jab>dash attack but his air game is slow enough that he can't get out of stuff like dthrow>nair>Lkick. Zelda should be wary about throwing out anti-airs against him though because his dair is a pain in the arse.

Offstage is even because neither character can gimp the other, plain and simple.

Aura Sphere is a weird thing. Zelda tends to have a little bit of trouble against projectiles like this since NL can be baited out and punished with exactly what we were trying to reflect in the first place. For Lucario, that means potentially getting a kill at 60%. At the same time, if NL does reflect it, it means a super early kill for us. This is actually the story of the MU imo. One person can get a super early kill on the other just as easily as the other can get a super early kill. Because of that, I feel like this is kinda similar to the Little Mac MU in that it's very volatile and unpredictable. One match can end with a 2-0 in Lucario's favor after lasting a minute and the next can end with a 2-0 in Zelda's favor after lasting 4 minutes. That's part of why I don't like this MU.

50:50*

*But stupidly volatile.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Lol I'm glad I'm not the only one who uses "managable but volatile" for some matchup descriptions lol.

I'll start with Jiggles. I think this MU is slightly in Zelda's favor.

What Jiggles has that we struggle against: Air game. Zelda should never be in the air in this MU unless she's going for a punish or a followup from dthrow (Jiggles is light so almost nothing is guaranteed from this so bait airdodges if possible, otherwise just use fthrow for a quick 12%). Zelda will almost never land Lkicks in this MU since Jiggles is so small and has too much speed and manueverablity in the air for our precise moves to land. The only aerials that should ever be useful here are nair, uair, and dair while offstage.

What Zelda has against Jiggles: Ground and OoS game. While Jiggles is usually able to safely space aerials against our shield without any threat of retaliation, she also can't do a whole lot to force us out of shield. Her ground speed won't let her cover the distance necessary to catch us with a surprise dash grab which is what Zelda is so susceptible to (See the Capt. Falcon MU) and the shield pressure from her aerials isn't enough to force us to recharge our shield for any lengthy amount of time. Yes, she has pound to do a lot of shield damage but pound is also fairly punishable by our quick anti-airs which are key to this MU. Since Jiggles lacks significant disjoints on her aerials, Zelda's anti-airs become very effective, especially utilt since its speed means we'll be fairly safe even if we whiff (Obviously, this doesn't mean we're unpunishable).

Offstage, Zelda definitely has an advantage as Jiggles has no means to instantly snap to the ledge other than smartly using her jumps. While her multiple jumps are a problem for getting dair kills, we can still apply pressure with nair and NL plus footstools do a lot of damage to Jiggles' recovery. Meanwhile, all Jiggles can do against our recovery is hold a nair by the ledge in the hopes of catching our snap back and proper timing on FW can make this less of a threat. Plus, we can hold down so we don't snap to the ledge and catch her in the reappear hitbox though it's tricky to pull off when recovering as it requires proper timing and spacing lest we SD.

55:45.

On I dont know how the 1.11 patch has affected Pound yet but prior to that pound was still something to be wary off if Jiggly was doing too many retreating Nairs on Zeldas shield which didn't look like much but then jumped back in with a pound and we ate a shield break.

On paper this matchup looks more in Zeldas favor but that's why I said Jigglys flexibility is a problem. Zelda can Utilt/Jab every approach Jiggly does except pound. But because if things like retreating Nair and pounds dis joint combined with Jigglys air speed means we can't just throw these moves out every single time Jiggly advances as he can wiggle around them. Jiggly fights by baits and trickery so he can't muscle Zelda out if her shield but like Wario dances around it till you find a hole in her defenses.

On recovery Jigglys multiple jumps mean Jiggly rarely has to grab the ledge on recovery unless she got Fthrown, Phantom 2, or Dsmashed. jiggly can just go over Zelda and land. On Zeldas recovery its practically free for Jiggly to toss out Nair on the ledge if Zelda is going for the ledge. Even reappearing before touching the ledge we still have that 1f before the hitbox comes out to be hit first if Nair is already on Zeldas head at reappear. Even if it doesn't work to Stage spike Zelda its really not a big risk to Jiggly to try it.

 

[Rickster]

Snapping from above is absolutely mandatory in this MU. It takes away the 2 frame vulnerability which is a godsend vs Jiggs's Nair.