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Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

Zylach

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I've actually been practicing with our best local Yoshi player the last few days as he prepares for Genesis and have found the Yoshi MU to be a little less terrible than last time I played it. Phantom 1 does a fair job at spacing against him. Most of the MU is all about spacing properly against him. Don't stay in shield too much since Yoshi excels at applying shield pressure and staying away from OoS options. It's still pretty bad but I don't feel like I'm completely hopeless against him. Not like ROB. ROB makes me wanna quit the game.
 

JigglyZelda003

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I've actually been practicing with our best local Yoshi player the last few days as he prepares for Genesis and have found the Yoshi MU to be a little less terrible than last time I played it. Phantom 1 does a fair job at spacing against him. Most of the MU is all about spacing properly against him. Don't stay in shield too much since Yoshi excels at applying shield pressure and staying away from OoS options. It's still pretty bad but I don't feel like I'm completely hopeless against him. Not like ROB. ROB makes me wanna quit the game.
If Yoshi jabs your shield from behind be sure to kick him in the face so he will respect the Boots.
 

PGH_Chrispy

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Wait, we have an advantage against him when he jabs? I didn't think that was possible.
Bair should be fast enough at 12 frames OOS - I mean, it's almost as good as our OOS grab lol. Since jab doesn't do as much shieldstun as, say, fair, we can react more easily.

Edit: looking at the data, Yoshi's FAF after jab two is 16 frames after his jab ends. I don't know the shieldstun, but it can't be that significant.
 
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Zylach

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Bair should be fast enough at 12 frames OOS - I mean, it's almost as good as our OOS grab lol. Since jab doesn't do as much shieldstun as, say, fair, we can react more easily.

Edit: looking at the data, Yoshi's FAF after jab two is 16 frames after his jab ends. I don't know the shieldstun, but it can't be that significant.
I never looked at his frame data. It felt like his endlag was non existent after jab 2.
 
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Zolda

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why hasnt the mu thing on page 1 been updated
need organization
 
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Zylach

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Guys, how the hell do you counter Cloud?

I cannot fight him at all.
Honestly, Zelda doesn't. Just wait for him to make a spacing mistake or go too deep for a combo, get him offstage, then pressure him offstage as much as you can.
 

Zylach

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Zelda's were talking about it and they all think it's even. Not just the Smashboards community, the Zelda's in general.
I must've missed that conversation. I just think the mix of range and speed he has makes the matchup really difficult. We can't camp him out (which is what I prefer to do against swordfighters by using phantom) because he has limit break charge. We can't outspace him and he's really difficult to punish. His nair and bair are safe on our shield and his dair means we can't follow him in the air for strings. He's got mixups on shield and the disjoints to make our OoS options useless. Sure, we get him offstage and he's dead but when we lose that hard on stage, it's more of a problem than actually outright killing some characters via the side blast zones. This isn't like the Little Mac MU where he wins the ground game heavily and dies offstage any time. Cloud wins the ground and air game and has tricks offstage for helping him recover like stalling with blade beam and cross slash and, with limit break, he's not gimpable if he uses it right.
 

Zolda

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Guys, how the hell do you counter Cloud?

I cannot fight him at all.
http://www.twitch.tv/eventhorizon/v/38728099?t=03h41m30s

3:41:20 - 3:47:19

Cloud is easy to gimp. Recovery almost as bad as Mac's. Easy to combo since he's heavy. Our moves outrange some of his and his limit can easily be removed if you b throw off stage and gimp properly. If they land on stage, ez punish.

Just watch out for b air, limit, and idk what else.

*Our f tilt beats a lot of his aerials :secretkpop:

Also ignore the dumb commentator with the nasally voice since I only main Zelda and no one else. He's also really bad at commentary lol.
 
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Xys

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Anyone got any tips against the drag that is Corrin match up in general and with Zelda?
 

meleebrawler

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Anyone got any tips against the drag that is Corrin match up in general and with Zelda?
My best success against Corrin comes from zoning him/her out. He/she is slow and Dragon Fang Shot is easily snuffed (or reflected by Zelda). So as Zelda I'd use a lot of Phantoms while teleporting away from uncomfortable situations.
 

JigglyZelda003

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Anyone got any tips against the drag that is Corrin match up in general and with Zelda?
My best success against Corrin comes from zoning him/her out. He/she is slow and Dragon Fang Shot is easily snuffed (or reflected by Zelda). So as Zelda I'd use a lot of Phantoms while teleporting away from uncomfortable situations.
Phantom is pretty necessary to deal with Corn and his obnoxious reach. Zoning with Phantom as best as you can is good. Corn seems to have a weirdly large hurtbox (I was getting perfect kicks above his head) so we can sorta toss out some kicks here and there with ease of hitting.
 

Xys

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Phantom is pretty necessary to deal with Corn and his obnoxious reach. Zoning with Phantom as best as you can is good. Corn seems to have a weirdly large hurtbox (I was getting perfect kicks above his head) so we can sorta toss out some kicks here and there with ease of hitting.
His hitboxes are what im having trouble dealing with for sure. From the absurd speed of his forward smash to the counters and great aerials. I cant find openings for me. Zoning seems to be the only effective way to fight but even then I have to deal with the charge shot. His forward smash is fast and out ranges Bayonetta's forward smash albeit not as wide. Thanks for the advice though i'm gonna try zoning him out more and see if that helps. Hopefully it is just like cloud where you get used to the hitboxes and are able to predict when to attack.
 

Zolda

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Corrin has issues approaching us when we get the lead, and he is susceptible to d throw follow ups as well. His projectile is kind of useless against us and reflecting a full charge at proper distance allows us to follow up with reappearing FW. Recovery is average at best and is possible to shut down with d air, but he ledge snaps and it's impossible to stop that with d tilt. F smash is a massive pain and forces us to recover to the ledge, because if you don't, you'll get hit by it.
Phantom has good usage here. I suggest it. It walls him out and stops approach to a degree.
As for elevator and the such, he/she has the same weight as Mario, so I believe the kill percents should be similar to Mario's.
You should primarily be watching for Corrin's range here, since his aerials and f smash are obnoxious as all hell.
Shielding the spin attack with the side b allows us to punish since that's its only hitbox and the move does have unfortunate endlag.
Lastly, to limit his recovery, pick stages without walls. His side b or whatever with the lance gives him a boost to return to the ledge.
*watch for that stupid area of effect counter. A really strong move will end up killing us if he counters it since it does 2.5 KB on counter. (Example: this means you should never punish landing lag with Farore's Wind, since he'll counter that and its reappearance is very strong.)
 

Zylach

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I haven't played Zelda against Corrin yet but I've been playing Corrin nonstop and have found that, if she can't use her projectile to condition and pressure, her gameplan in neutral has to change. Since she can't use her projectile against Zelda, she has to focus on an up-close spacing game which Zelda also dislikes but can work around with smart phantom 1 or 2 usage. Zelda can't be at the max range of fsmash because Corrin can use her fsmash for free against Zelda. She has to be within range for her fsmash to connect at its max range against Corrin as that ought to outrange a lot of Corrin's basic spacing tools like ftilt, dtilt, and jab. The one problem Zelda will have when spacing against Corrin outside of fsmash and side B is bair since Corrin's bair autospaces.

Also, never try and land on stage against Corrin. Uair hurts, nair eats through airdodges, and dash attack is actually a good landing trap. Go for the ledge always.

As always, you need to know the opponent's punishable moves as Zelda. So far, I've noticed that rapid jab finisher, any of her landed aerials outside of bair, dsmash, usmash, ftilt (if misspaced), and utilt can be punished. I would recommend not overcommitting to a smash attack as a punish though. Go for faster options like dtilt and utilt to punish her and get those followups for damage or you can use a DA which is almost always a good punish in my opinion. Don't overcommit to your strings either because, as Zolda said, counter is a thing and Corrin's hurts a lot. To specify, the modifier for her knockback bonus on a countered attack is ~2.5x. So, if you use an attack with a knockback value of 50, let's say, Corrin will counter it with a knockback value of 125. That's a Zelda ftilt when both characters are at 0% turned into a warlock punch when both characters are at 0%. In other words, it'll kill when it counters pretty much anything at 100%. I've seen it kill a Ganondorf when he got his uncharged fsmash countered when he was at 13%. It's kinda ridiculous.

I realize that probably didn't help to fight against Corrin but I thought I'd share some information. Knowing is half the battle right?
 

BJN39

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I believe there's no such thing as a KB multiplier for counters. Counters' insane KB is based off of the damage multiplier, which is 1.3x the attack's damage for Corrin.

It's BL power vision because it hits vertically too.

Lavani Lavani kelP me with this

he is susceptible to d throw follow ups as well.
I'm j/s, isn't this like...everyone? :secretkpop: It's hardly a noteworthy talking point for a MU. Unless of course, it DIDN'T work.
 

Lavani

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I believe there's no such thing as a KB multiplier for counters. Counters' insane KB is based off of the damage multiplier, which is 1.3x the attack's damage for Corrin.

It's BL power vision because it hits vertically too.

Lavani Lavani kelP me with this
Correct. Has its own knockback stats (which are pretty normal for a counter) and uses x1.3 the countered attack's damage with an angle of 80° or 90° depending on hitbox. The angle's what makes it silly.
 

Zylach

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I believe there's no such thing as a KB multiplier for counters. Counters' insane KB is based off of the damage multiplier, which is 1.3x the attack's damage for Corrin.

It's BL power vision because it hits vertically too.

Lavani Lavani kelP me with this



I'm j/s, isn't this like...everyone? :secretkpop: It's hardly a noteworthy talking point for a MU. Unless of course, it DIDN'T work.
Correct. Has its own knockback stats (which are pretty normal for a counter) and uses x1.3 the countered attack's damage with an angle of 80° or 90° depending on hitbox. The angle's what makes it silly.
In that case, I stand corrected. Didn't know counters were purely damage based. Good info.
 

JigglyZelda003

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I believe there's no such thing as a KB multiplier for counters. Counters' insane KB is based off of the damage multiplier, which is 1.3x the attack's damage for Corrin.

It's BL power vision because it hits vertically too.
Correct. Has its own knockback stats (which are pretty normal for a counter) and uses x1.3 the countered attack's damage with an angle of 80° or 90° depending on hitbox. The angle's what makes it silly.
Point still stands that Zelda can die at 60% to a countered kick. Corn counter is dumb lol.
 

Zolda

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I believe there's no such thing as a KB multiplier for counters. Counters' insane KB is based off of the damage multiplier, which is 1.3x the attack's damage for Corrin.

It's BL power vision because it hits vertically too.

Lavani Lavani kelP me with this



I'm j/s, isn't this like...everyone? :secretkpop: It's hardly a noteworthy talking point for a MU. Unless of course, it DIDN'T work.
Some characters are better at getting out of it than others, and some characters get hit by less of them at higher percents.


I did some labbing with a Corrin and a Bayo today and found small but interesting discoveries against Corrin today.

  1. His dash attack can short hopped over
  2. If we spot dodge the dash attack it'll miss us and has enough endlag to be punished by grab or dash attack
  3. F smash has just enough end lag that we can shield or spot dodge it and punish with a grab
  4. Phantom does work really well at keeping him out and stopping his aerial game (forces him to recover low too if you send it out offstage against him)
  5. The lance on his side b counts as a hurtbox and you can grab him out of it before he does the twirl thing (risky with how slow our grab comes out, but if you shield the lance hit you can do this if he doesn't immediately attack out)
  6. D smash clanks with our d smash (it clanked on my back hit but i assume this applies to the front hit too)
 
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Zylach

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While we're asking questions, can I just ask a few questions about Bayonetta?

1. What is the DI for getting out of her standard side B>up B>side B>side B>bair/uair string? I know it's possible and have done it on occasion. ZeRo claims that Bayonetta is a bad character because that combo doesn't even work against good DI but I can't find it.

2. Along the same lines, is there any way to DI out of her rapid jab? I've tried DI'ing away, down, up, everywhere and cannot get out. I DI up and mash my jump button but can't get out and have my jump when she sends me flying leading me to believe that it's just impossible to get out of it.

3. I've seen Bayo uthrow>up B>combos work fairly reliably. Is it actually true or am I DI'ing that wrong too? Bayo generally loses to shielding but if uthrow is actually a combo throw, then she actually gets a lot better imo because shielding doesn't shut her down as hard.

I just find this MU to be infuriating.
 

Zolda

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While we're asking questions, can I just ask a few questions about Bayonetta?

1. What is the DI for getting out of her standard side B>up B>side B>side B>bair/uair string? I know it's possible and have done it on occasion. ZeRo claims that Bayonetta is a bad character because that combo doesn't even work against good DI but I can't find it.

2. Along the same lines, is there any way to DI out of her rapid jab? I've tried DI'ing away, down, up, everywhere and cannot get out. I DI up and mash my jump button but can't get out and have my jump when she sends me flying leading me to believe that it's just impossible to get out of it.

3. I've seen Bayo uthrow>up B>combos work fairly reliably. Is it actually true or am I DI'ing that wrong too? Bayo generally loses to shielding but if uthrow is actually a combo throw, then she actually gets a lot better imo because shielding doesn't shut her down as hard.

I just find this MU to be infuriating.
From my experience labbing with various Bayonettas, it's an interesting match up. I believe that it's actually in our favour.

Neutral
Like Corrin, Bayonetta has huge issues approaching us when we have any form of lead, but it's much worse for Bayonetta than Corrin. All of Bayonetta's approach options are punishable by us (minus b air or u air, but those aren't the greatest approaching tools, though).
For an approach, Bayo will:
Use her side b (easy to punish. this move is like CF's side b in that pretty much everything stops it lol)
Use her downwards aerial side b (predictable and ultimately useless if it hits our shield. gets punished hard if dodged.)
Try to force approach with bullet arts (not that great against us. NOTE: cannot be reflected)
Other than that, she's got very sparse options.
Bayonetta is also the same weight as Sheik, but I think she's also a little floatier(?). I believe she dies around the same times Sheik dies.
We can keep Bayonetta out with our range and also use it to punish her approach, too.

Moves of importance
Bayonetta:
Witch Time: Interesting against us. This is what all of them try to do in order to net an easy kill. For all of you who don't know the MU, this is really intimidating since our moves are slow and easy to see coming. However:
The move is laughable if a multihit triggers it since pretty much any move in the game stops Bayonetta's smashes (a lot of our moves are multihits). It's still good to exercise caution against it, though. Like Corrin, we do not want to punish landings with farore's wind. The move is slow and easy to see coming and will get witch timed easily.​
Recovery moves: These are her side b and up b when she's in the air. If she goes for combos with these, always use some form of DI away from her. These moves are what allows her to get easy 0-death combos. On the plus side, however, every combo she has is awful against anyone light weight and/or floaty. Zelda is both of these, and tends to fall out of Bayonetta's combos with little DI required (I'd try down and away from her, but up and away or just simply away might work too.)
Now for recovery, it's interesting. Our d air pokes Bayonetta out of both side b and up b. Bayonetta gets an extra side b when she gets hit/if she hits someone with it in the air. However, neither of her recovery moves give her much vertical distance, so it's possible to shut her recovery down at low percents. (NOTE: She has a triple jump glitch involving her recovery moves. I haven't played one that's exploited that yet so I'd like to know if it has any impact on gimping her.) Always pick a stage with no walls against Bayonetta, because her recovery is near broken with walls (this means always ban duck hunt and don't allow omegas if you can.)
Kill moves: Bayonetta's kill moves are (against Zelda):
  1. All of her smashes (Extremely unsafe! If we shield any of them, we can get easily punish her with a lot of moves.) She'll likely be saving these for hard reads and witch time. (Nayru's Love is like the one move in the game that DOESN'T BEAT HER SMASHES. It's dumb, I know. Be careful using it due to this since she'll happily smash you out of it.)
  2. D air. This move has ridiculous knock back and I believe it can kill you before 100%. It also has a meteor, and the endlag is pretty low on it too, but not unpunishable on shield. (Can we stop this move with u smash, maybe?)
  3. F throw. Has nice KB, but will usually only kill at the ledge. I believe we'll die to it at the ledge around 120 to 130%? Not sure.
  4. B air. Annoying. Weaker than ZSS's, but like ZSS, can short hop spam it against us safely. Easily predictable, though.
These are seriously her only kill options against pretty much any character.​
Specials: Her side b is easy to interrupt and a bad approach option against us. Her down b isn't the greatest against us either. Up b is actually possible to SDI out of in the air and on the ground, and is a little situational. Neutral B is her projectile. We can choose to reflect this or just crouch it. I think it might even be possible to snipe it with Farore's Wind. If she tries to gimp us with it, either reflect or fast fall and dodge at the same time.

Bat Within: This is a neat mechanic from her games. It activates on all dodges at frames 1-4, and at the end of witch time. What makes it annoying against us is that triggering it allows her to get out of any d throw set ups easily (she might punish us for them too). It's a little iffy to trigger, though, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. When activated, she can control where the bats go, but in my experience using her, it's always a surprise activation. If you use a grounded multihit by her and she doesn't activate bat within and move away, she'll get hit by the rest of the move.

Ok, Now onto Zelda's moves​
Zelda: Specials first
Nayru's Love: Be very careful with it. If it doesn't hit her shield, it will get punished really hard by a smash. Use this to stop approach options and her projectile.
Din's Fire::secretkpop:
Phantom: Ok, here's the thing about Phantom in this match up. Witch Time is actually an AoE counter, meaning if you're in the radius of an activated witch time, you're going to get caught in it no matter what move you used. Phantom 1 and 2 will activate witch time. Phantom 3 will not. You can also use Phantom to force her to recover low. A lot of her moves are low damage output too, so Phantom probably won't be dying much here.
Farore's Wind: Only use it for recovery and elevator. Will get witch timed. Someone should test and see if she can activate bat within on the second hit of elevator. I think she actually dies pretty early to elevator and some of her moves might be easy to punish it with.​
Regular moves
All multihits are pretty much safe on witch time since hitboxes remain active in witch time and almost all moves stop wicked weaves (her smashes). I don't know if this applies to n air, though. Multihits might also stop her hilariously low priority moves, including her approaches. D air is good for gimps here and it never hurts to try since a trade with give both of you very minimal chip damage and send you up and her down. Try using d smash or dash attack on her recovery since her up b doesn't ledge snap and can be interrupted by a majority of our moves. We can do u throw to u smash at 0%. We can also juggle her a little at low percent with u tilt and get at least 3 or 4 hits off, but personally, if you land the first, I'd go for 2 or 3 and then use up smash to maximize damage output. Other than this, our range and disjoints help enormously here and aid in keeping her out.
:4zelda:60:40 :4bayonetta:/:4bayonetta2: Zelda's favour. (might even be 65:35)


 
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BJN39

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I'm just gonna say it's way too early to be putting numbers out on Corrin or Bayo. In a few months we might discover reasoning for a score entirely different than our current perceptions.
 

Lorde

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lmao crying at Zelda ever beating Bayo 65:35
 
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Rickster

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I'm crying at the fact that Zelda has the number 60 next to her name rather than the opponent's
 

Aunt Jemima

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wtf is wrong with you guys

it doesn't even matter that it's "only 10 days" because Zelda is never winning this MU, ever

zolda *some content has been removed, courtesy of BJN aka Big Joogi Noobnop*
 
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JigglyZelda003

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BJ hunting Souls I see lol.

Thank you Zolda Zolda for your overview of Bayo. From reading it though it sounds to me less like a big advantage to Zelda and more of an even matchup.

In the beginning you mention Bayo has a hard time approaching Zelda if Zelda has the lead but I don't recall you ever mentioning the difficulty Zelda might have in attaining said lead. Zelda has reach but she still slower than Bayo and we can't reflect Bullet arts so Bayo could decide to be really cheesy and spam bullet arts from moves like Dtilt , Jab, Ftilt,and Uair from around us to invite us to attempt a punish. Even if it takes a while to get something significant damage wise it still can gain her a lead. It will even eventually kill Phantom and then she has a whole 10s to troll around with bullets. Considering you can block her ground side B and punish it I dont think most Bayos would use that as an approach too many times of we stuff it once or twice.

On combos we may have an easier time DIing/falling out if Bayos combos but she also Bat Withins our Dthrow combos so outside of some small things both characters can have combo troubles but if Bayo hits a starter she doesn't really have to worry about Zelda poofing out of it.

Its for these reasons I feel we go evenish with Bayo at this time.
 

Zolda

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BJ hunting Souls I see lol.

Thank you Zolda Zolda for your overview of Bayo. From reading it though it sounds to me less like a big advantage to Zelda and more of an even matchup.

In the beginning you mention Bayo has a hard time approaching Zelda if Zelda has the lead but I don't recall you ever mentioning the difficulty Zelda might have in attaining said lead. Zelda has reach but she still slower than Bayo and we can't reflect Bullet arts so Bayo could decide to be really cheesy and spam bullet arts from moves like Dtilt , Jab, Ftilt,and Uair from around us to invite us to attempt a punish. Even if it takes a while to get something significant damage wise it still can gain her a lead. It will even eventually kill Phantom and then she has a whole 10s to troll around with bullets. Considering you can block her ground side B and punish it I dont think most Bayos would use that as an approach too many times of we stuff it once or twice.

On combos we may have an easier time DIing/falling out if Bayos combos but she also Bat Withins our Dthrow combos so outside of some small things both characters can have combo troubles but if Bayo hits a starter she doesn't really have to worry about Zelda poofing out of it.

Its for these reasons I feel we go evenish with Bayo at this time.
Zelda is slower than Bayonetta
This is true, but she's not the fastest character either. Her speed is hardly a problem in this match up.
She can force/bait Zelda with bullet arts
:secretkpop:
lmao bullet arts are pretty useless here and easy to avoid. If for some reason it's a problem, just pick a stage with platforms and shield. D tilt is also the only one that does any form of KB, so if you're close enough just punish her endlag on them with dash attack or a grab. You'll do more damage with those than she can to you.
Blocking Side B to punish it
Yes, this is what you do. Once she learns she can't use it, she has 0 approach.
Bat Within
Requires her to get an air dodge out of d throw and get hit on frame 1 of the air dodge, which means you have to be quick on your feet to get that damage. Even so, when they know they have bat within as an option, they'll try and air dodge out of d throw, which you yourself can bait and punish. (Don't forget u throw u smash works at 0% so that initially gives us some leeway too.)

Overall her damage output relies too much on combos. Her combos suck on us and she's really quite weak without them. We do overall more damage than her with simple punishes. Getting the lead against her is easy, especially when we have a lot of moves that can beat out hers.


 
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BJN39

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She can force/bait Zelda with bullet arts
:secretkpop:
lmao bullet arts are pretty useless here and easy to avoid. If for some reason it's a problem, just pick a stage with platforms and shield.
This is a fool's solution.

"Go to a platform and shield" is putting you in a disadvantaged state, firstly. Bullet arts are far from useless when each only has ~15F of endlag and still by design outranges all our normals.

Their hitboxes are bigger than our LK sweet-spot and she has a plethora of different angles and her dodge-beating NAir and UAir. Yes the damage will be very low, but easy to avoid? No.

D tilt is also the only one that does any form of KB, so if you're close enough just punish her endlag on them with dash attack or a grab.
Any Bayonetta player trying to win is probably going to use it sparingly out of our punish range. The idea that we'll be able to get in and GRAB her sounds like a, shall we say...Uncommon occurrence...

Tbh a lot of your comments, to me, are showing why we need to wait on numbers for Bayonetta.



Also I've been informed every bullet art has tiny KB hitboxes situated where the little pops of purple light appear. I'd guess Dtilt's are just some of the largest/strongest.
 

JigglyZelda003

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:secretkpop: [/I]lmao bullet arts are pretty useless here and easy to avoid. If for some reason it's a problem, just pick a stage with platforms and shield. D tilt is also the only one that does any form of KB, so if you're close enough just punish her endlag on them with dash attack or a grab. You'll do more damage with those than she can to you.
This is a fool's solution.

"Go to a platform and shield" is putting you in a disadvantaged state, firstly. Bullet arts are far from useless when each only has ~15F of endlag and still by design outranges all our normals.

Their hitboxes are bigger than our LK sweet-spot and she has a plethora of different angles and her dodge-beating NAir and UAir. Yes the damage will be very low, but easy to avoid? No.



Any Bayonetta player trying to win is probably going to use it sparingly out of our punish range. The idea that we'll be able to get in and GRAB her sounds like a, shall we say...Uncommon occurrence...
That's what I meant by playing cheesy with Bullet Arts. Assuming the Bayo player understands Zelda they should know roughly where her punish range
Is and shoot from around it. It takes nothing for Bayo to walk to that range from start and crouch and see what Zelda is gonna do since Zelda doesn't really threaten her at range and normally doesn't want to approach since Zelda also has 0 approach options. Very much like Zelda vs Pally.

I'm not saying Zelda cant punish spammed bullet arts at all because she can, but if you don't have to approach either why would you?


Bat Within
Requires her to get an air dodge out of d throw and get hit on frame 1 of the air dodge, which means you have to be quick on your feet to get that damage. Even so, when they know they have bat within as an option, they'll try and air dodge out of d throw, which you yourself can bait and punish. (Don't forget u throw u smash works at 0% so that initially gives us some leeway too.)
Sounds like human error can screw us over if we are not fast enough since she should be DIing being Dthrown anyway. Mashing witchtime/bat within Bayos aside its still not a fun thing to know that one of our best combo starters is avoidable is...annoying.

Overall her damage output relies too much on combos. Her combos suck on us and she's really quite weak without them. We do overall more damage than her with simple punishes. Getting the lead against her is easy, especially when we have a lot of moves that can beat out hers.


I'm still not seeing where we get the lead so easily...by punishing SideB? Or bad spacing? It sounds like something that works both ways. Which is why I feel like its pretty even.

I'm also not seeing how her combos magically dont work on Zelda at all when they work on Pikachu, the king of "Can't touch this". Zelda not being assed out so hard by combos compared to some other characters is a wonderful thing but its not unusual for Zelda not to be comboed so harshly she's usually juggle food which Bayo can still do off of a throw.

Also I've been informed every bullet art has tiny KB hitboxes situated where the little pops of purple light appear. I'd guess Dtilt's are just some of the largest/strongest.
Generally the closer to Bayo the more hitstun. That's why she can hold Dsmash at the ledge and people get hit climbing up or she can fly at you with Bair a blazing. I guess Dtilts in just higher KB.
 

Rickster

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I've played that MU maybe....twice since the game has been out, lol. Not even exaggerating, I can only remember two times.

We probably still lose it just like in Brawl...just not as badly. :secretkpop:
Tfw you just assume every MU is bad because lolZelda cri
 

JigglyZelda003

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I've played that MU maybe....twice since the game has been out, lol. Not even exaggerating, I can only remember two times.

We probably still lose it just like in Brawl...just not as badly. :secretkpop:
Tfw you just assume every MU is bad because lolZelda cri
Lol I've played it maybe 5-7 times total so idek how many times as Zelda for real but it doesn't feel as bad as brawl...granted Wifi lol.
 

JigglyZelda003

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Double Post, but lol mobile so I hope BJ doesn't mind and I call "its my thread anyway protection" :secretkpop:

Since we have a resurgence in activity lately I suppose its time we get back to trying to finishing Matchup discussions as we probably wont have another patch for a while.

So everyone has been grabbed by a couple Captain Disjoints every few matches as he's pretty pick up and go and spam grab because lol Slowda. Fortunately for Zelda she can stuff most of his attacks and grabs with her faster moves like Dtilt and Jab. Even Nair has its use as its a mobile hitbox that Falcon can run into if he starts to make bad dash grab attempts. Phantom also can protect from grabs but I've had Falcon slip by P1 sometimes so its not perfect but its our best mid stage option on trying to not approach and invite Falcon in.

Falcon is pretty combo fodder and his recovery is weak so if we have got some good momentum going Falcons not so bad.

Falcons normals are good but Zelda can punish the heavier hits on block with on point punishes and even stuff these moves with her own moves. Avoiding getting grabbed is the big thing cause Falcon can really turn things around off of a grab because Zelda is not good in the air if she's up there not of her own volition and Zelda can only muscle her way down so much before Falcon catches on and has to run to the ledge. You want to try to hold the stage control so Falcon doesn't have room to run laps for most of the fight, because limiting his run space lessens the chance for surprise 60 mph kidnappings.

When by the ledge Zelda is actually very good at challenging Falcon to a dunking contest so if your confident in your ledge skills Zelda can go toe to toe with Falcon on the ledge. Even early on, a early morale break is a powerful thing.

I've fought Falcon all over but mostly on Omega stages or DH so idk where to best fight him since I'm unsure of his platform pressures. 50:50
 
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