Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[DoctorDub]

Being good friends with someone who mains Robin has let me get a good amount of experience against that character. it also helps that they mained Zelda at one point, so they had an idea of what I was going to do.

Robin has many projectiles, but Zelda makes this very hard for him/her to actually use them because we can either nullify or reflect all of them. The hardest thing about fighting a Robin is just getting used to their weird playstyles.

• Arc fire: we can just mash B and make it belong to us. This'll knock the robin back if they decide to come in for a follow up. This doesn't always work, though, as it suffers from the same issue that Ness' PK fire brings, they can just throw another one out after we reflect to add up extra damage.
• Arc Thunder: Reflect it. it's slow enough.
• Thoron: See above. May be more of an Idea to shield it, though. Being hit by one can kill us, so a mis-timed reflect will hurt a lot.
• L-Wind: Gimp it. That is all.
• The books/Sword: When Robin runs out of a spell or his Leffen sword (That's what I call it. Nobody will change that.), it can be thrown at us and it does a metric-****ton of knockback. I'm talking killing at 70-ish% if you're right at the edge of the stage. Don't try and reflect it, that's too risky. Try to grab it instead. A SH-Air-dodge will swipe it right out of the air if timed correctly.
• Down-Smash: One of the strangest hitboxes in the game. Don't try and punish until all of the little sparks have disappeared.
• Up-Smash: It's very strong, but it probably won't come out all too often. You can punish this quite easily upon reaction.
• F-Smash: Same story.
• Down-Air: lol

• Farore's Wind: You already know what I'm going to say. It's good for punishing thoron, but don't use it too much, blah blah blah...
• Din's: Still sucks.
• Nayru's Love: Best move.
• Phantom: It acts as a good shield for us, but I think it can gimp robin if they Up-B into a stationary phantom. Think of the way Ganondorf runs into it, it's a lot like that. It just walls them off.
• Down-Air: Key move. Can be use to punish pretty much every projectile that robin throws our way (if we're close enough, that is).

Really, I think this one might be a
55:45 that is actually quite possibly a 6:4

which is... funny.

Spoiler

I won't do one for customs, because I can't make myself care about them enough to even know what they are.

 

[Macchiato]

@ JigglyZelda003 Should we move on?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ JigglyZelda003 Should we move on?

Oh sorry we were, i've had a hectic week so i was just waiting till Monday so we were somewhat back on track. lol

up next is a matchup you'll probably rarely if ever see for anything significant.

Its really hard to say if anyone has anything to severely outclass the other in vanilla, but mostly because i've never played a DH i couldn't beat as Zelda and i'm still working on my own DH so he's not as good for me to say much about his side of the battle.

Zelda can Faroes snipe if she reads an attempt to toss out more junk, she can spike DH because his recovery is pretty bad, and she kills better than DH wishes he could. reflecting projectiles is iffy, other than timed gunman reflects i feel its better just to block and faroes snipe your way to DH because Can and Frisbee reflect strangely. like if you don't do it right it doesn't reflect or just trades out. getting caught in a setup can get Zelda to eat quite a bit of damage and possibly be set up to die. beware of can trades on close range at high percents because sometimes i use those as DH to force people close to the blastzones so i can Uair or Nair them. Zelda has more reach than DH at close range but he's kind of short so sometimes grabs might whiff like if you land after his Fsmash and he's still crouching. He's light but falls like a midweight so as far as i've seen combos that work on like Ness or Mario work on DH. if you can get the KO early its hard for DH to come back because of generally needing setups or reads to get KOs.


DH still forces Zelda to come to him unless Zelda has a lead because he can set up a junk barrage and traps that can be frustrating for her to get through, especially if DH is playing perfect Dabuz style this match can get really long. he can camp around Zelda since she can't camp him back as well so if Zelda doesn't have a huge lead DH may be able to camp the advantage back even baiting the Faroes snipe on purpose. DH can juggle Zelda and he has a nice disjoint reach that's faster than Zelda so he can keep up with her in close range. DH poor KO power is still there but Zelda is light so it doesn't feel as bad against someone heavier who can rush down DH hard which Zelda kind of needs momentum to do. DH can still run away from Zelda because she's kind of slow. i like to play hit and run against Zelda cause her power is scary but running from her is funny. unless i was already out there with Zelda i would probably just leave her alone offstage and harass her with junk like the Can. because DH being offstage is bad and a miss could turn into eating a spike which is not fun.

I prefer platforms in general with DH so as Zelda i prefer to take him someplace flat where he has less options to set up cananigans or someplace with a short ceiling or lots of offstage space to mess with DH recovery.

i'm feeling evenish right now because i haven't fought a DH that knew how to do more than spam and the only time i've lost to Zelda was the good sisterns here but my DH is weak so i don't count that much atm.

default 50:50
customs ??:??

 

[Zylach]

I actually fought a DHD on FG who is a DHD main here on the boards and that was really challenging. Other than that, my only experience in this MU was facing WI's #1 who enjoys but doesn't main the character. I beat him but it never felt like I was overpowering him, just taking advantage of his lack of experience perhaps? That said, I don't really feel like this MU is in Zelda's favor at all. A really smart DHD will be able to zone Zelda out completely (Unless customs are on in which case Din's Flare helps a ton). Even if Zelda gets in on DHD, he has tools to get her back out. His jab 1 comes out on frame 4, faster than anything we have. He also outranges us completely with his aerials so a retreating fair from DHD is something we can't challenge other than to shield and try to get back in range. Zelda can FW snipe DHD when he uses his gunman but the timing is a bit strict. We have to know when he's going to use it basically. She can do the same thing with the clay pigeon. Clay pigeon easier to snipe thanks to its extra 20 frames of endlag compared to gunman/can. The timing for sniping him during can endlag is basically the same as gunman so very strict timing.

Something that actually really comes in handy here is phantom since it eats so many projectiles and can help to push against his wall of stuff. Just be careful about using it because DHD can aim his cam right over phantom to hit you during that horrendous phantom endlag. We also have to be really cautious about shielding here because that's what DHD wants us to do. Any time he throws out the gunman, he will expect a shield (since the firing speed on it varies, going for a reflect is typically a bad idea) and run up to get a grab. He's got the throw followups too.

Never be above DHD. DHD wants to force his opponent above him (jumping over his gunman/clay pigeon). This is where we get an exploding can to the face, a fair to the face, uair juggled, plus we have no landing options against DHD as he's got disjointed hitboxes that make great anti-airs and great land traps. Even his utilt helps keep us away from him.

As for Zelda's strengths here, again, she can FW snipe any time he uses a projectile but the timing is strict meaning she can get punished hard for mistiming it (We have a 5-6 frame advantage on DHD's gunman and can while we have a 25 frame advantage on clay pigeon). The trick is to FW when you know DHD is going to use a projectile since reacting to it is often just slow enough for DHD to shield (Damn human reaction time). Yes, Zelda has a reflector but DHD has some anti-reflector tools unlike any other campy character. He can detonate his clay pigeon early making it so we can't reflect it and probably hitting us through NL at the same time. We also can't reflect the can reliably as our hitbox interacts with the can's hurtbox rather than reflecting it. This often ends in the can detonating and dealing damage to us. Moreover, the gunman have variable firing speeds (I'm repeating myself here lol) so reflecting their shots becomes a guessing game unless you learn the exact timing for each of the gunman's shots in which case you probably have a ton of MU experience to back up your gameplay. Phantom helps push past his wall.

Dair spikes are pretty easy since DHD has no hitboxes during his up-B and doesn't have stellar control over his movement during the up-B either. Beware of projectiles as he recovers though since he can cover himself with things like the can as he gets back to the stage. DHD also has a fairly difficult time landing outside of landing with nair. The good thing about this is our dthrow>uair is very useful in securing high damage and kills on him because of uair's disjoint. Neither of DHD's landing options allow him to challenge our uair unless he times them perfectly. Don't rely on nair against DHD since it's range is poor and we can't follow up from a dthrow, dtilt, nair, etc. with a nair because of DHD's combo-breaker nair. Dtilt is probably our most reliable tool here because of its speed and it pops him up into the air. Since the least amount of landing lag he has is on early fair at 15 frames, we can punish all of his landings with kill moves including the elevator and most can be punished by fsmash which comes out on frame 16. Usmash might be able to catch him before he lands, I'm not sure on the disjoint vs. DHD's nair.

Overall:
45:55 Default
50:50 Customs

 

[WispBae]

I actually fought a DHD on FG who is a DHD main here on the boards and that was really challenging. Other than that, my only experience in this MU was facing WI's #1 who enjoys but doesn't main the character. I beat him but it never felt like I was overpowering him, just taking advantage of his lack of experience perhaps? That said, I don't really feel like this MU is in Zelda's favor at all. A really smart DHD will be able to zone Zelda out completely (Unless customs are on in which case Din's Flare helps a ton). Even if Zelda gets in on DHD, he has tools to get her back out. His jab 1 comes out on frame 4, faster than anything we have. He also outranges us completely with his aerials so a retreating fair from DHD is something we can't challenge other than to shield and try to get back in range. Zelda can FW snipe DHD when he uses his gunman but the timing is a bit strict. We have to know when he's going to use it basically. She can do the same thing with the clay pigeon. Clay pigeon easier to snipe thanks to its extra 20 frames of endlag compared to gunman/can. The timing for sniping him during can endlag is basically the same as gunman so very strict timing.

Something that actually really comes in handy here is phantom since it eats so many projectiles and can help to push against his wall of stuff. Just be careful about using it because DHD can aim his cam right over phantom to hit you during that horrendous phantom endlag. We also have to be really cautious about shielding here because that's what DHD wants us to do. Any time he throws out the gunman, he will expect a shield (since the firing speed on it varies, going for a reflect is typically a bad idea) and run up to get a grab. He's got the throw followups too.

Never be above DHD. DHD wants to force his opponent above him (jumping over his gunman/clay pigeon). This is where we get an exploding can to the face, a fair to the face, uair juggled, plus we have no landing options against DHD as he's got disjointed hitboxes that make great anti-airs and great land traps. Even his utilt helps keep us away from him.

As for Zelda's strengths here, again, she can FW snipe any time he uses a projectile but the timing is strict meaning she can get punished hard for mistiming it (We have a 5-6 frame advantage on DHD's gunman and can while we have a 25 frame advantage on clay pigeon). The trick is to FW when you know DHD is going to use a projectile since reacting to it is often just slow enough for DHD to shield (Damn human reaction time). Yes, Zelda has a reflector but DHD has some anti-reflector tools unlike any other campy character. He can detonate his clay pigeon early making it so we can't reflect it and probably hitting us through NL at the same time. We also can't reflect the can reliably as our hitbox interacts with the can's hurtbox rather than reflecting it. This often ends in the can detonating and dealing damage to us. Moreover, the gunman have variable firing speeds (I'm repeating myself here lol) so reflecting their shots becomes a guessing game unless you learn the exact timing for each of the gunman's shots in which case you probably have a ton of MU experience to back up your gameplay. Phantom helps push past his wall.

Dair spikes are pretty easy since DHD has no hitboxes during his up-B and doesn't have stellar control over his movement during the up-B either. Beware of projectiles as he recovers though since he can cover himself with things like the can as he gets back to the stage. DHD also has a fairly difficult time landing outside of landing with nair. The good thing about this is our dthrow>uair is very useful in securing high damage and kills on him because of uair's disjoint. Neither of DHD's landing options allow him to challenge our uair unless he times them perfectly. Don't rely on nair against DHD since it's range is poor and we can't follow up from a dthrow, dtilt, nair, etc. with a nair because of DHD's combo-breaker nair. Dtilt is probably our most reliable tool here because of its speed and it pops him up into the air. Since the least amount of landing lag he has is on early fair at 15 frames, we can punish all of his landings with kill moves including the elevator and most can be punished by fsmash which comes out on frame 16. Usmash might be able to catch him before he lands, I'm not sure on the disjoint vs. DHD's nair.

Overall:
45:55 Default
50:50 Customs

I hope I'm the Doggy in question.

I haven't much experience with customs on, but I would have to agree with default being in Doggy's favor, though I'm not sure by how much.

Reflecting Trick Shot doesn't do too much unless it has been punted by a D-Tilt/F-Tilt, and after one punish of that caliber, I doubt someone would keep doing, as it's a pretty obvious set up (Trick Shot, position self/roll, d-tilt). While gunmen can be reflected, the pause before they shoot also gives doggy a chance to jump over and punish Nayru's Love or just shield the shot. If you are looking to reflect anything, I would say definitely do it to Clay Pigeons, as they are very laggy. Even better, just jump over it and land a sweet spot Fair.

Approaching Doggy is going to be hell, as he can pretty easily wall out slower characters, not to mention how tall Zelda is, making her a very easy target. While approaching with teleport is also an option, it's also pretty telegraphed, and shielding it leaves Zelda open to small punished (grabs/dash attacks).

Up close and personal, Doggy has a slight advantage in the fact that he is faster, but that's about it. Get any trade with Doggy, and you'll be winning the fight, as he rely relies on getting set up against opponents. Just stay on top of him, don't let him breath. He can outspace Zelda with his Fair, or autocancel retreating bairs.

Take advantage when he is offstage, the only way to protect himself is with the can bouncing above him, and if it lands, you'll both take damage.

I'd honestly give Doggy a moderate advantage in default. Doggy has a much safer neutral game than Zelda, and it would be relying on hard reads to deal with the MU.

 

[Zylach]

I hope I'm the Doggy in question.

I haven't much experience with customs on, but I would have to agree with default being in Doggy's favor, though I'm not sure by how much.

Reflecting Trick Shot doesn't do too much unless it has been punted by a D-Tilt/F-Tilt, and after one punish of that caliber, I doubt someone would keep doing, as it's a pretty obvious set up (Trick Shot, position self/roll, d-tilt). While gunmen can be reflected, the pause before they shoot also gives doggy a chance to jump over and punish Nayru's Love or just shield the shot. If you are looking to reflect anything, I would say definitely do it to Clay Pigeons, as they are very laggy. Even better, just jump over it and land a sweet spot Fair.

Approaching Doggy is going to be hell, as he can pretty easily wall out slower characters, not to mention how tall Zelda is, making her a very easy target. While approaching with teleport is also an option, it's also pretty telegraphed, and shielding it leaves Zelda open to small punished (grabs/dash attacks).

Up close and personal, Doggy has a slight advantage in the fact that he is faster, but that's about it. Get any trade with Doggy, and you'll be winning the fight, as he rely relies on getting set up against opponents. Just stay on top of him, don't let him breath. He can outspace Zelda with his Fair, or autocancel retreating bairs.

Take advantage when he is offstage, the only way to protect himself is with the can bouncing above him, and if it lands, you'll both take damage.

I'd honestly give Doggy a moderate advantage in default. Doggy has a much safer neutral game than Zelda, and it would be relying on hard reads to deal with the MU.

You are!

 

[BJN39]

Once again posting the current MU sheet with the latest score additions! So we can see the progress/scores all together so far.

Spoiler

|
Character |||||||||
Score | 45:55 | 40:60 | 35:65 | 45:55 | 40:60 | 45:55 | 50:50 | 45:55 | 50:50 Character |||||||||
Score | 35:65 | 45:55 | 35:65 | 45:55 | 35:65 | 50:50 | 40:60 | 55:45 | 35:65 Character |||||||||
Score | 45:55 | 50:50 | 45:55 | 45:55 | 55:45

I had had Palutena mislabeled previously from the results. Also updated Rosalina's score and it's not more in line with the major opinion.

Edit : Also, I know it isn't on-MU, but even after nerf after nerf to diddy, is it really still 35:65 in most Zelda's minds?​

 

[Macchiato]

Once again posting the current MU sheet with the latest score additions! So we can see the progress/scores all together so far.

Spoiler

|
Character |||||||||
Score | 45:55 | 40:60 | 35:65 | 45:55 | 40:60 | 45:55 | 50:50 | 45:55 | 50:50 Character |||||||||
Score | 35:65 | 45:55 | 35:65 | 45:55 | 35:65 | 50:50 | 40:60 | 55:45 | 35:65 Character |||||||||
Score | 45:55 | 50:50 | 45:55 | 45:55 | 55:45

I had had Palutena mislabeled previously from the results. Also updated Rosalina's score and it's not more in line with the major opinion.

Edit : Also, I know it isn't on-MU, but even after nerf after nerf to diddy, is it really still 35:65 in most Zelda's minds?​

I feel like the Diddy MU may even be a slight disadvantage now

Also why tf is bowser a bad MU? I've played top bowsers and you can literally aircamp him for days, due to him being laggy. If he commits, we can LK him. Nair strings too and he can't land. Killing him at 70% is huge and we gimp him so early. I feel like this is Zelda's best Match-up. Why

 

[BJN39]

I feel like the Diddy MU may even be a slight disadvantage now

Also why tf is bowser a bad MU? I've played top bowsers and you can literally aircamp him for days, due to him being laggy. If he commits, we can LK him. Nair strings too and he can't land. Killing him at 70% is huge and we gimp him so early. I feel like this is Zelda's best Match-up. Why

@Fernosaur was the one I remember the best arguing the MU as out of our favor. A couple other gorls I talked to more recently also had it at 45:55, but I don't remember specifically who. I personally think it's even. *shrugs*

 

[JigglyZelda003]

nothing has changed about the diddy matchup except Uair doesn't kill as early. he still runs circles around Zelda and all she has going for her is she generally outreaches him and is stronger but if you aren't landing hits those things don't matter.

as for bowser its like Ganon, he kills her in 5 hits and while we can combo him for days he can tank it and he can punish Zelda for being slow much easier than she can punish him for being big. outside of Elevator he tanks Zeldas attacks as long as he's not near the ledge.

 

[Macchiato]

@Fernosaur was the one I remember the best arguing the MU as out of our favor. A couple other gorls I talked to more recently also had it at 45:55, but I don't remember specifically who. I personally think it's even. *shrugs*

I personally think its a clean 60-40. Just jump around him and bait, he can't do anything. Also not needing to approach is already really good. Bowser also doesn't have a kill confirm, where as Ganon does. Bowser needs a hard read, but his moves are too slow.

nothing has changed about the diddy matchup except Uair doesn't kill as early. he still runs circles around Zelda and all she has going for her is she generally outreaches him and is stronger but if you aren't landing hits those things don't matter.

as for bowser its like Ganon, he kills her in 5 hits and while we can combo him for days he can tank it and he can punish Zelda for being slow much easier than she can punish him for being big. outside of Elevator he tanks Zeldas attacks as long as he's not near the ledge.

Now Diddy has to work for a kill because uthrow to uair doesn't work unless he baits an airdodge. He'll have trouble getting that kill. Bowser can't Land a kill. His kill moves are very slow and we kill him as early and more essily due to elevator and LKs. Also just Dair. Our good airspeed allows us to bait, and just jump around looking for a LK and if he commits, he will get punished for his bad lag. We can continuely juggle him with nair, SH Nair out best approach also gives him a problem. If he doesn't shield it then its like a 33% nair string and if he does we can just go through his shield and we'll have time so he doesn't punish.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I personally think its a clean 60-40. Just jump around him and bait, he can't do anything. Also not needing to approach is already really good. Bowser also doesn't have a kill confirm, where as Ganon does. Bowser needs a hard read, but his moves are too slow.

upB OoS gurl we have to be wary of that at all times, we can't just hit bowser shield or bait him all nilly willy because of that and he's fast. also if we jump towards him he can always quick flame and his Fair can eat our attempts at air aproach.

Now Diddy has to work for a kill because uthrow to uair doesn't work unless he baits an airdodge. He'll have trouble getting that kill. Bowser can't Land a kill. His kill moves are very slow and we kill him as early and more essily due to elevator and LKs. Also just Dair. Our good airspeed allows us to bait, and just jump around looking for a LK and if he commits, he will get punished for his bad lag. We can continuely juggle him with nair, SH Nair out best approach also gives him a problem. If he doesn't shield it then its like a 33% nair string and if he does we can just go through his shield and we'll have time so he doesn't punish.

Diddy can still kill its just not as free. we don't have an answer to his Dtilt or Fair except to run from them. a badly spaced Fair can be grabbed but that's it. he can always just throw us and try to read the landing for an Usmash or toss us offstage.

 

[Macchiato]

upB OoS gurl we have to be wary of that at all times, we can't just hit bowser shield or bait him all nilly willy because of that and he's fast. also if we jump towards him he can always quick flame and his Fair can eat our attempts at air aproach.


Diddy can still kill its just not as free. we don't have an answer to his Dtilt or Fair except to run from them. a badly spaced Fair can be grabbed but that's it. he can always just throw us and try to read the landing for an Usmash or toss us offstage.

Actually on the ground he's fast but in the air, no. He's basically a deer in headlights in the air due to the horrible speed. UpB OOS is a thing but it only does like 7%. We can actually bait him all sillynilly, just jumping around him and punishing every commitment with a fair. He doesn't wanna risk getting juggled in the air because he can't land.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Yea it seems after the nerfs, the fact its much easier to escape Dthrow Uair and stuff, he definitly has trouble killing and a very slow recovery, so I think its close to even for sure, maybe not in our favor, but close to even no doubt.

Also if we are mentioning some ratios, that Peach vs. Zelda is soooo not leaving my mind....

 

[Zylach]

The Diddy v Zelda MU is no longer 65:35. More like just 60:40 now. The big thing about Diddy is that he wrecks us in neutral. The extra deficit was due to the fact that he could guaranteed kill us at 100% pre patch. I faced and beat Wisconsin's #1 in a quick money match right after the first nerf to him. After the most recent one, this MU is no longer insta-death at 100%.

Bowser v Zelda is 50:50. I said that before, I believe, and I stick by that. Technically his aerial game is better than ours since he generally outranges us and his disjointed attacks are hard for Zelda to deal with. Since he's super punishable, though, we can take advantage of that with Lkicks and such because he's fat. Seeing as he kills us ridiculously early, though, we can't be too comfortable. Ever.

 

[Macchiato]

The Diddy v Zelda MU is no longer 65:35. More like just 60:40 now. The big thing about Diddy is that he wrecks us in neutral. The extra deficit was due to the fact that he could guaranteed kill us at 100% pre patch. I faced and beat Wisconsin's #1 in a quick money match right after the first nerf to him. After the most recent one, this MU is no longer insta-death at 100%.

Bowser v Zelda is 50:50. I said that before, I believe, and I stick by that. Technically his aerial game is better than ours since he generally outranges us and his disjointed attacks are hard for Zelda to deal with. Since he's super punishable, though, we can take advantage of that with Lkicks and such because he's fat. Seeing as he kills us ridiculously early, though, we can't be too comfortable. Ever.

I feel like he can't escape our combos and strings. He also can't get us when were jumping because its a big risk for him. Killing, he needs a read... BUT his kill moves are slow and he needs a hard move or a SUPER unsafe commitment from us. Try just jumping around him and he can't do much. We also gimp him p easily while he can't gimp us. We can KO him without a read. We also match him in Damage output. Idk, if its me because I just have no problem in this MU and I've beat top bowsers on smashladders.

 

[evmaxy54]

I feel like he can't escape our combos and strings. He also can't get us when were jumping because its a big risk for him. Killing, he needs a read... BUT his kill moves are slow and he needs a hard move or a SUPER unsafe commitment from us. Try just jumping around him and he can't do much. We also gimp him p easily while he can't gimp us. We can KO him without a read. We also match him in Damage output. Idk, if its me because I just have no problem in this MU and I've beat top bowsers on smashladders.

You also have to take into account

How well do these top Bowser mains know the Zelda MU?

---

Also for the record avoid BF/DL against Bowser js

 

[Zylach]

I feel like he can't escape our combos and strings. He also can't get us when were jumping because its a big risk for him. Killing, he needs a read... BUT his kill moves are slow and he needs a hard move or a SUPER unsafe commitment from us. Try just jumping around him and he can't do much. We also gimp him p easily while he can't gimp us. We can KO him without a read. We also match him in Damage output. Idk, if its me because I just have no problem in this MU and I've beat top bowsers on smashladders.

He does have a lot of trouble getting out of our combos which give us some good damage on him. I never really feel safe in the air against anyone with longer disjoints than ours since he can probably FH fair against us to keep us away from him in the air. Yeah, we can punish it. Yeah, we can even bait stuff like that out for hard punishes but Bowser's fair comes out so fast and kills us so early that I'm personally quite afraid of it. I haven't faced top level Bowsers though so I'm speaking mostly from laggy FG matches and frame/hitbox data.

 

[Macchiato]

I asked Kadae and he thinks that Zelda stumps Bowser.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

So now we move onto Kirby...kirby can go suck on an egg . He's short, he's fast, he juggles, he hits hard, all the things Zelda doesn't like.

I really can't see this matchup as much better than 4:6. Since all we really can do is punish the few bits of lag Kirby has and try to AA him sometimes so he stops yolo jumping at Zelda. Kirby is pretty strong and one bad call can end our stock early if kirby has been getting the juggle on us hard. If he wants to take our power I say gladly cause that's one more move that lags for him.

custom Kirby I don't had alot if exp. I forget who I played in the Zelda social who used Kirby but I know it was alot of B move spam. I think customs help out Kirby which isn't fun for us. Beware the custom stone that spikes(why Sakurai)

40:60
custom 35:65

 

[Macchiato]

HmMmMmM the kirbys have the MU at their thread at even

 

[JigglyZelda003]

HmMmMmM the kirbys have the MU at their thread at even

I mean I'm all for a better number, but I don't like fighting Kirby as Zelda at all

 

[BJN39]

I recollect @Nairo saying he "likes this MU as Zelda" whether that means it's doable for Zelda or not I'd like to hear his input on it.

 

[Zylach]

Personally, I hate fighting Kirby as Zelda. It's difficult to grab and jab him, two moves we desperately need to use for damage and spacing. His combo game is scary though it's usually fairly obvious when facing mere decent Kirby's. Very often, they love approaching via dair>utilt so shielding until the dtilt and grabbing actually gives us a chance. Watching Izaw's art of Kirby, though, tells me that really good Kirby's can do whatever they want after that dair meaning they can grab us through shield or jab combo which will eat through a spotdodge if we suspect a grab and is also faster than any of our OoS options basically meaning we have no choice but to reset to neutral with a roll if he decides to approach us.

Kirby's not short on kill potential either as that dair combos into dsmash as well and he does have kill throws so avoid stages that have high top platforms like BF and DH because uthrow. He can go incredibly deep offstage with a dair to catch us and can just hang back at the ledge with his dair out to catch our regrab vulnerability and spike us into oblivion.

We don't really have any way to pressure Kirby because our projectiles are too easy to avoid and we don't have the aerial disjoints to combat him in the air other than uair which is slow. Plus, he can cover himself with dair or fair should we choose to try and challenge him in the air with our nair or something. Not to mention he basically has a command grab in his neutral B since using it from the air as he drops on our shield means we have absolutely no options to get away from it. Starting a roll animation gets us sucked up, jumping does too, and so does spotdodging as well as any of our attacks. If this move comes out, don't hold shield, just roll away the moment you see it and reset to neutral. Again. Because we can't challenge Kirby's landing game.

I guess one thing that works in our favor is that we beat him on the ground generally. He's pretty fast but I believe our dtilt outranges all of his ground options. That said, Kirby can easily take advantage of our dtilt and punish it with his own which is wickedly fast, has a chance to trip, and true combos into stuff. The only other thing that Zelda has here is that she is able to kill Kirby earlier than Kirby can kill her but she has to rack up the percent somehow and it's really not easy.

Customs make this a million times worse for Zelda as Kirby gets his custom up-B that finishes combos and kills earlier, his custom hammer that is incredibly risky to interrupt and kills at 30%, his meteor smash down B, and jumping inhale giving him another approach option.

40:60 Default
35:65 Customs

Sorry folks. I go in this MU every time.

 

[evmaxy54]

Eww Kirby small probz 6:4 at best because of that lol (our only good option is Dtilt & that's quite laggy so yea we're ****ed). Miss a grab & that's a free punish & missing one isn't all that difficult lol

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

A little tip: Dair > any smash attack is escapable if you spam Nayru's, but don't continuously do it because the Kirby can just shield and punish

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I recollect @Nairo saying he "likes this MU as Zelda" whether that means it's doable for Zelda or not I'd like to hear his input on it.

maybe if we tag her enough @Nairo will grace us with her presence and share her knowledge cause I was genuinely curious as to why she likes fighting Kirby with Zelda.

run from Kirby Dair like its peach unless you plan to AA it with an attack. Its too risky to block all the time and hope to punish when kirby has 50 options after Dair.

I mean I beat Kirby normally but it s not a match I actually look forward too, I'd almost rather fight Zamus over Kirby since she as least I tall enough to reach.

 

[Zylach]

maybe if we tag her enough @Nairo will grace us with her presence and share her knowledge cause I was genuinely curious as to why she likes fighting Kirby with Zelda.

run from Kirby Dair like its peach unless you plan to AA it with an attack. Its too risky to block all the time and hope to punish when kirby has 50 options after Dair.

I mean I beat Kirby normally but it s not a match I actually look forward too, I'd almost rather fight Zamus over Kirby since she as least I tall enough to reach.

Zamus over Kirby? That's saying a lot. I'd rather face Sheik than Zamus lol. I think I have a personal weakness to Zamus though because I can't beat her with anything. I've only won one game against a Zamus that was actually tournament worthy and that person, then, went on to beat me consistently with her for the next several matches.

 

[Macchiato]

maybe if we tag her enough @Nairo will grace us with her presence and share her knowledge cause I was genuinely curious as to why she likes fighting Kirby with Zelda.

@Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo @Nairo
Did it work?

 

[Zylach]

@Nairo
Senpai, notice us!

 

[DoctorDub]

I hate fighting Kirby. He's too small.

That's all I have to say.

Spoiler

I wasn't even aware Nairo still played Zelda. I thought he did the smart/logical thing and stopped.

 

[Zylach]

I think he still plays her for funsies. Never in tournaments because she doesn't really belong in big tournaments.

 

[Nickat98]

I actually hate this MU as well, fighting Kirby isn't something that I like at all. Kirby gots strength, speed, combos, and air game...plus he's too short for us to be comfortable. I'd say the only thing we've got going for us is an early elevator kill and perhaps what we can manage to get out of dtilt, and our dins fire is only useful for pressure while he recovers if you don't wanna chase that floaty menace off stage lol.

If Kirby gets our neutral b sure it's laggy but he can use it to keep us out and make our use of phantom little to none, so if he uses it properly it's more of a disadvantage than advantage to us. His dair is by far annoying as well, it leads into basically all his other moves.

I've played a bit against custom Kirby and he's quite pessimistic, his fly forward neutral b, and straight up air up b kills us off the top off the stage if we're not careful (sorry I don't actually know the customs names)

If we play safe and poke some damage in we can get a read for an elevator kill by 60% and earlier with rage due to Kirby being so light, if you can a LK while he floats in the air then that's good stuff and the MU is doable if we play a defensive/punish game but I'd say we're beat here.

Zelda 40:60 Kirby default
Zelda 35:65 Kirby customs

 

[PUK]

I like fighting kirby with zelda. It's clearly in zelda's favor, you girls don't know the amount of weaknesses zelda can exploit in this MU.
Zelda Fair and Bair outrange all kirby's aerial, and are as fast. Kirby being a puff means easy Sweetspot (his hurtbox has no holes, and it's perfect to aim). His quite floaty too, and has a slow airspeed (worse than zelda), so Fair chains works (you can reach him and fair before he lands, then repeat). His main kill move is Bair, it's too telegraphed to be hit accidentaly by. Other are Usmash and Fsmash. Fsmash is good, but it's really awful against transcendant disjoint. Aka half zelda's toolkit on the ground.
Seriously the MU is closer to 6-4 zelda's favor.
Also edgeguard the damned puff, he's more free offstage than any other.

Custom give us phantom strike but otherwise kirby gains important tools in this type of MU. Even, but it's not in kirby's favor.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ PUK gurl I don't think we can Fair Kirby I he is fairing too. Its one thing to kick him when he puffs up though. Idk how fullproof that plan is despite Kirbys slow air speed and floatiness.

 

[Leinacx]

I hardly fight any good Kirby's as Zelda but I don't like this match up either. His Dair Is annoying as hell, and so is his Dtilt and Uptilt he's short and most of his moves beat Zelda's moves (Correct me if I'm wrong.) I don't use Phantom much in this match up since most Kirby's just jump over it plus the end lag Phantom has >.>....
Though I'd say in this match up I just try to rack up damage and look for a Teleport kill since he's so light and I try to play really defensive in this match up too. I wouldn't give him my ability since that's means he has another move to protect himself and that means Dins Fire won't be helpful in this match up. We don't want that now do we?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

so DDD, anybody fight any? Other than the randoms on roll glory I have yet to fight a DDD main so I'm just gonna say its evenish for now. He can kinda poke Zelda out but its not too bad and he's a big target so he's easy to combo and kick. His recovery is annoyingly good so sometimes gimping can be a tad hard but nit impossible. What do you girls think?

5:5 vanilla
?:? Customs

 

[Flawed]

<- Dedede main here. My personal experience. All of our zeldas have died a month or so ago, all playing luigi or some ****

This is one of the matchups I think we win. 55-45

Zelda is pretty light
Has one of the longer airdodges
Has some pretty bad lag on some moves when they arent fullhopped.

Zelda dthrow > nair > sourspot fair(bair?) happens at 0%, but never after that, because we can DI out of that/ and possibly all other throw strings. In theory it SHOULD be combo city, for Zelda but I'm guessing its the same as shiek with the other heavies, Dedede is blessed with the floatiness/extra jumps.

Zelda is not fantastic against shields and OH MAN do we D3's love to shield. We also have a bit of range on our hammer to harrass with. We are succeptible to Fsmash cause we're fat. And Zeldas broken Up b kills at around 80% (though if you get hit by it , you deserve death..... can you DI the second strong hit??). Dins fire doesn't work too well because we can kinda throw a gordo the instant we see you going for one, and since dedede alwayys wants to be close up, the chances of you having distance to get one off is slim.

When zelda is on the ledge we have great options to cover it with Dsmash, grab and Gordo. Flub dair gets zelda punished if she goes for a low percent spike and misses the sweet spot.

Zelda should always take Dedede to FD, where battlefield platforms dont get her caught in the upsmash, uptilt, nair through the platform.

Gordos are pretty bad for us in this matchup until zelda is offstage or trying to land since she has to kinda commit to using something for the reflect.

PHANTOM SLASH - how do you guys use it in this matchup? None of the Zelda's ive played bother with it vs Dedede.(mainly cause im always up close trying to grab or jab

 

[Macchiato]

<- Dedede main here. My personal experience. All of our zeldas have died a month or so ago, all playing luigi or some ****

This is one of the matchups I think we win. 55-45

Zelda is pretty light
Has one of the longer airdodges
Has some pretty bad lag on some moves when they arent fullhopped.

Zelda dthrow > nair > sourspot fair(bair?) happens at 0%, but never after that, because we can DI out of that/ and possibly all other throw strings. In theory it SHOULD be combo city, for Zelda but I'm guessing its the same as shiek with the other heavies, Dedede is blessed with the floatiness/extra jumps.

wrong it works to kill percent. it's a true combo

Zelda is not fantastic against shields and OH MAN do we D3's love to shield. We also have a bit of range on our hammer to harrass with. We are succeptible to Fsmash cause we're fat. And Zeldas broken Up b kills at around 80% (though if you get hit by it , you deserve death..... can you DI the second strong hit??). Dins fire doesn't work too well because we can kinda throw a gordo the instant we see you going for one, and since dedede alwayys wants to be close up, the chances of you having distance to get one off is slim.

We can punish your laggy moves. Also we can reflect a gordo or just dash attack because of how slow it is

When zelda is on the ledge we have great options to cover it with Dsmash, grab and Gordo. Flub dair gets zelda punished if she goes for a low percent spike and misses the sweet spot.

we can wait for the dsmash and then get back to the ledge.

Zelda should always take Dedede to FD, where battlefield platforms dont get her caught in the upsmash, uptilt, nair through the platform.

Gordos are pretty bad for us in this matchup until zelda is offstage or trying to land since she has to kinda commit to using something for the reflect.

Off stage not really. The first hit of farores wind will send it back

PHANTOM SLASH - how do you guys use it in this matchup? None of the Zelda's ive played bother with it vs Dedede.(mainly cause im always up close trying to grab or jab

It blocks gordos

you also forgot that Zeldas dtilt hits DDD BEFORE he can grab the ledge out of his up b. We can easily gimp him.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ Flawed Dins is useful to stop Gordos from long range and petty harassment offstage if Zelda is afraid to go out there.

do you know what DDDs customs do? Zelda's don't really do anything.