Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[JigglyZelda003]

lol point taken, that would look better so i will edit that shortly

 

[Zylach]

Haha. Yeah, I spaced out when I first saw the discussion change, but now it's been done.

Actually, (more relevant) I'd recommend evening the Rosalina socre to 5:5 just for the sake of consistency, as all the other MUs are rounded to command # scores.

Also, just a little thing about how the score visual at the top of each character may be confusing when read. The way it is now, it seems possible that someone could misread the number as being in Zelda's favor (Which, lol.) since it's put

65:35

almost making it look like 35 for PEACH. (Partially since I always visualize the number pertaining to Zelda being the left number, and the one on the right being her opponents'.)

I'd just recommend maybe adding character heads to both sides of the number and/or coloring the score at the top to note it being disadvantageous or advantageous (Like with the green=good, yellow=med, red=bad sort of thing.) Example:

35 : 65

IDK if it's just me that sees it that way, but it might look nicer this way. (Or similar.) ^ ^

After looking at other char's MU threads and seeing this notation, I've started using it as well. It's much easier to understand and highly recommend it to reduce confusion.

 

[Adrian Marin]

I don't believe this MU is particularly unfavourable for Zelda. In my experience, the biggest mistake Zelda players make is their aggressive play. Wario is definitely going to space a lot with Fair and his bike, so it's best to try to remain as unpunishable as possible during neutral play. It's worth noting that Zelda's Nayru's Love is an excellent way to put a stop to Wario's edgeguarding shenanigans (especially when he throws his bike upwards.)

 

[Macchiato]

Put me down for 6-4 Zelda
Nayrus love can stop his bike which is huge in his game. We also outrange and kill early or as fast as him. Since zelda is defensive and shields a lot, his command grab is really useful in this MU. I'd say that waft isn't too big this MU because Zeldas elevator kills at like 65%. We also can edgeguard him when he can't edgeguard us. He also has to approach us since he has no projectile, the phantom stops the bike pretty well too. Imo it's managable for wario but we have a small upper hand

@ JigglyZelda003 i finally took the time to do it

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I'll leave Wario up for today and then I guess we shall be moving onto the next matchup. I hope discussion picks up for other matchups before we get to Hoo Hah :o

 

[BJN39]

I though is just chime my score in at 45:55

He is annoying, and has the weaves and waft o_o but Zelda seems to be able to contest with him pretty well imo.

As a bonus, we can even out range him in some moves' cases. I do find it troubling that sometimes you're pretty much forced to go in though, to try to prevent him from playing 'no go in' to get a waft.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ Macchiato dont forget to edit your post with reasons for wario for archive purposes lol.

so DK...anybody fought any? I feel it could be evenish but all I've fought on roll glory are the ones abusing lag. He has alot of reach and is pretty quick still, oh he can konga clap in the air now and becomes the Avatar with customs on lol. Somebody else know anything?

 

[Zylach]

I've only faced a few DK's and have had a bit of trouble against them because DK easily outranges us. Our only option for outranging him without getting smacked around for it is probably phantom. DK is also quicker than he was in brawl, though I rarely faced him in brawl either so I might not remember quite right, which means getting in on him isn't as effective as before. It's difficult to punish his moves since they all have so much range. The only one that comes to mind is his dash attack which should only be used against us as a punish of his own. Thankfully his smash attacks are somewhat telegraphed so we should be able to avoid them and punish but shielding them won't give us any opportunities for followups. What I'm always afraid of in this MU is his ability to break shields. DK has so many options that annihilate shields that I'm afraid to shield against him at any time.

That said, DK is one of the easiest characters for Zelda to combo because he's huge and doesn't have a reliable combo breaker. The best he's got is nair I believe and bair if he gets turned around in the middle of our nair strings somehow. He's also one of the easiest characters for Zelda to meteor smash since his recovery is pretty bad. Get him offstage and we have all the power. Just beware that he has 4 meteor smash moves of his own.

I'll say 5:5

 

[BJN39]

I get the impression it's like bowser, but with some easier aspects, and a little less endlag on his side. I could easily be missing something, maybe the DKs can clear things up there. I'll get them.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I though is just chime my score in at 45:55

He is annoying, and has the weaves and waft o_o but Zelda seems to be able to contest with him pretty well imo.

As a bonus, we can even out range him in some moves' cases. I do find it troubling that sometimes you're pretty much forced to go in though, to try to prevent him from playing 'no go in' to get a waft.

As a main I will say that the biggest problems in is approaching her due to Nayru's Love (can destroy bike if timed right), side B can annihilate you and your bike when recovering and her UP Aerial out ranks Wario's aerial approach from above.

Edit: Note: I have not fought a Zelda who used Phantom during the battle so I cannot say how to approach it or how it is dealt with.

 

[meleebrawler]

Anyone manage to hit DK with Farore's in the middle of hand slap?
I'd also recommend using it to approach whenever he tries to charge his punch (like not hitting
him but just staying close.) It's actually kind of hard for DK to approach since his air-to ground
is shaky (has to be very close for nair, everything else lags), and Zelda's anti-air is good.
But then he could also just space you with bairs. Phantom makes walking approaches a pain
for him though.

Oh, and his recovery is easily predicted and thus spiked by Dair.
Cyclone messes that up, but then you can prep a Din's.

 

[Big O]

I haven't really played too many Zelda mains, but I've run into at least one pretty good one on FG.

DK has the better "stats" like weight, speed, and range, but he also has some pretty exploitable weaknesses. He is one of the easiest characters to combo and one of the easiest characters to juggle trap. His vertical recovery is limited, so even a footstool or sourspot Dair can gimp him. He is so fat Dsmash can sometimes hit him twice and he is probably one of the easier characters to land your sweetspot attacks. His shield is too small for his size, so a lot of your multi-hit attacks can and will poke through his shield.

The MU basically boils down to whether or not you can successfully exploit those weaknesses. If you can't, you will probably get overwhelmed and lose. DK has enough flexibility to play around his weaknesses, but Zelda has the tools to punish him a lot with good reads and/or patient play. I feel like it is mostly even. Even though Zelda is considered to be bottom tier, in this MU she doesn't feel like a free win.

 

[Brickbox]

Dk's fatness and recovery are the only things Zelda has on us, but I feel like dk has a very slight advantage in the neutral game since (from my experience) it isn't too hard to play safely against Zelda and a lot of stuff zelda does is punishable unless the zelda spaces perfectly.

The mindset that is needed to win as Zelda in this mu is: play a safe solid neutral game, be patient until you get the opportunity to capitalize on dk's weaknesses, and above all else I really feel that less is more.

Also if you don't have experience and knowledge of what Dk can do it makes the match up so much easier.
Things to know about DK.

1. His trump game is amazing, especially against Zelda because of her recovery, trump guarantees a back air on zelda and this means free easy kills or good damage. Dont get trumped, your ledge get up game needs to be mixed up well.
2. Know how to punish our down-b, and don't be caught off guard with it. It is a fantastic move that destroys defensive options, you gotta know how to deal with it.
   
3. Don't assume stuff is safe. Dk has some bad frame advantage but he still has massive punish range with his Up-B OoS and other moves. You have to make sure you are extra safely.
4. If Dk gets the first kill, don't get desperate. Dk with rage with rack up damage quickly if zelda starts playing desperately. Don't let the fact that you and died get in your head or DK could easily 2 stock you.

Overall I feel like this a fairly even match up, Zelda can do all kinds of stuff to DK as long as she gets in, but dk can punish easily if zelda tries to hard to get in. Zelda has better true combo ability but DK has better early kill potential.

TL:DR: Play a strong neutral game, take advantage of the fatness.

 

[Alacion]

DK just needs to worry about Zelda's dair.

55:45 DK's favour.

 

[Macchiato]

basically what everyone said, his range and weight make it hard for us while it's easier to gimp him, combo him, and get an elevator on him.

55-45 Zelda

 

[Locuan]

Need more daily dose of Mops? Well, we are about to begin the discussion on the Zelda Match-Up on the Mopcina Match-Up Thread. It would be awesome if you could help us out!

 

[JigglyZelda003]

any last thoughts before we move onto hoo-hah Diddy? we shall be moving on tomorrow

*Note for Zeldas*

Even though Lucy isn't due to be discussed for a while would you like me to add in the discussion from the Mopcina boards since they were just discussing the matchup?

 

[Macchiato]

I got this. Yes diddy hoo hah

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Diddy is a matchup I can cry about talk about instead of lurking since I have some experience with him. I'll try to make a post tomorrow about the hoo hah king and how we can hopefully annihilate him.

 

[Macchiato]

Imo Diddy's one of the easier top tiers to beat. ZSS however is a *****.

 

[Crudedude]

have we gotten to the part where we discuss about paluntena I'm having troubles with her and her teleporting, fast long grabs, fair or aerials in general and her jab.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

oh wow I almost forgot to do a write up / vent my anger on this stupid monkey. listen gorls, i just made this up on the spot so excuse me that it's not even close to organized

btw here's a video of the matchup

OK SO. The irritating monkey obviously wins this matchup, but it isn't completely impossible for Zelda like Brawl MK was. I feel like getting Diddy off stage is going to be extremely important in this matchup. Dair him on that telegraphed af monkey flip, and then hit him with whatever when he has to use his barrels. BOOM. GIMPED. DONE. DIDDY = LITTLE MAC. Once Zelda gets in on Diddy and dthrows him or whatever, make the combos count. Nair to nair, nair to sweetspot bair. Whatever. Reads are also gonna be super important against Diddy. Since he's very fast, he can do whatever without being punished too hard. But, if you can read an airdodge or roll then you can punish him extremely. Something important to note is that since Diddy has like no end lag on anything, you shouldn't try to do the elevator oos unless he uses like ftilt or a smash attack on your shield for some reason. About his banana, you can just throw it off stage OR use it against him and get an elevator to just make the Diddy player cry
I'm not sure about his range vs Zelda, but I know his fair outspaces so much it's literally ridic, and uair hits under him (?????). I think Zelda's ftilt/fsmash outspace his dtilt, which is gonna be the grounded move he'll use the most.

oh and really important random thing:
If Diddy dthrows you, always di away from him. You'll still get hit by bair or fair, but it also means
GOODBYE HOOHAH

This matchup is totally hard, but tldr; I don't think it's unwinnable if you play correctly and showcase Zelda's sass against that stupid screeching monkey :')

40:60

 

[Zylach]

So, does this mean we're officially moving on to Diddy? The thread title lied to me?!

I think it's obvious that Zelda loses this MU so I'll keep this short. Diddy outspaces everything (fair, bair, dtilt, everything). He juggles us until the end of time. He kills us really early with that damned uair (Air dodging it is a death sentence). He has no end/landing lag so no easy punishes for us. Yes, we have tools to counter the bananas but that doesn't stop them from being annoying as hell. Holding shield for any amount of time is just asking to get grabbed/face humped. Diddy will win all trades.

I think we can kill him early... and yes, he is gimpable. Not like Lil' Mac gimpable but also not ZSS so there's hope in that respect. Not an impossible MU as long as Zelda stays patient, plays smart, and doesn't get grabbed.

35:65

 

[Macchiato]

With all my experience in this match up, I'll say it's pretty hars. His main way of racking up damage is Dthrow and Nayrus Love can stop grabs which definitely make it hard for him. His way of getting a grab, the banana, is also nullified by Nayrus Love. Timing Nayrus Love right beats monkey flip I think. He will have other combo starters which is harder to get so we have to watch out for that, his range I think is slighter longer than us so it's harder for us to approach. He's also way faster to and we have to approach. Killing, Zelda wins but Diddy is only 10% behind, Zelda has the elevator which kills diddy around 65% and LKs percent depending on where yew are on the stage. His Hoo Hah kills at like 80% I think. Edgeguarding definitely in our favor, a simple sourspotted Nair gimps him. If he's charge the rocket thing then just throw a din. For stages, ban battlefield because he likes platforms more and I would CP FD or T&C
I say it's 65-45

 

[BJN39]

@ JigglyZelda003 should I go tell the Diddy boards now? It seems the Diddy talk is starting.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh yes lol, my bad I was preoccupied most of yesterday on other things and forgot to update title. Summon the chimps please

 

[Alacion]

30:70.

Diddy's fair > Zelda.

 

[Berserker.]

In my short play time with Zelda, Diddy was one of the characters that I fought against.

The match up is really BAD but let's do the Math here: Diddy has the best aerials in the game. Zelda in mid-air lacks options

35:65

 

[Meru.]

This match-up makes me want to hang myself. Zelda can't avoid his grab nor his banana which leads to a grab, she is Fair food, Uair food and actually just food for Diddy in general. Up Bing this jerk seems impossible because nothing he does has lag and its so risky if you miss it because Diddy and his grab are so fast, even if you cancel it you're in a hideous position. Fun fact: His Fsmash will also often outrange Zelda's!

Edgeguard and hope you hit the Dair while praying you don't get Uaired/Faired/SideB'd. His air speed and Up B both aren't super fast so getting those Dairs may not be as hard as you would normally think. (Even if you lose the match, having stomped his ugly face with your foot should provide you enough satisfaction to still sleep well with a smile.)

 

[meleebrawler]

This match-up makes me want to hang myself. Zelda can't avoid his grab nor his banana which leads to a grab, she is Fair food, Uair food and actually just food for Diddy in general. Up Bing this jerk seems impossible because nothing he does has lag and its so risky if you miss it because Diddy and his grab are so fast, even if you cancel it you're in a hideous position. Fun fact: His Fsmash will also often outrange Zelda's!

Edgeguard and hope you hit the Dair while praying you don't get Uaired/Faired/SideB'd. His air speed and Up B both aren't super fast so getting those Dairs may not be as hard as you would normally think. (Even if you lose the match, having stomped his ugly face with your foot should provide you enough satisfaction to still sleep well with a smile.)

And why can't she avoid grabs or bananas? Not only does she have Nayru's, she can also
block with Phantom if he comes running with a peel in hand. It's really just Fairs that are truly
problematic. Just do your best to avoid them (don't try challenging or punishing unless he spaces real bad) so that he feels compelled to try something else. Especially keep an eye out for Monkey Flips.

Also you shouldn't be using Fsmash to beat out anything other than low-priority rush attacks
or dash-ins (ala Sonic). Diddy's Fsmash is also one of those few punishable things he has.

 

[Meru.]

And why can't she avoid grabs or bananas? Not only does she have Nayru's, she can also
block with Phantom if he comes running with a peel in hand.

Oh really? Both of these moves are unsafe as ****, and one of them tends to whiff. Risk/reward is heavily skewed in his favour. So you just hit him with Nayru's Love. Congratulations, you just dealt ~10%. You have no follow-ups or anything. Now what happens when he blocks your Nayru's or avoid your Phantom? If you're above 80%, he'll grab you and you're simply DEAD. If you're under 80%, he'll juggle you for eternity.

It's definitely not only Fair, Diddy's reward is insane when compared to Zelda's. A Diddy with a banana in his hand is super scary. Stuff like Nayru's or Phantom is just begging to be baited and punished, and if you fail once, he can end your stock. Zelda has to take considerable risk if she wants to hit him with her high reward moves, Diddy, on the other thand, takes no risk but everything he does has huge reward.

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh really? Both of these moves are unsafe as ****, and one of them tends to whiff. Risk/reward is heavily skewed in his favour. So you just hit him with Nayru's Love. Congratulations, you just dealt ~10%. You have no follow-ups or anything. Now what happens when he blocks your Nayru's or avoid your Phantom? If you're above 80%, he'll grab you and you're simply DEAD. If you're under 80%, he'll juggle you for eternity.

It's definitely not only Fair, Diddy's reward is insane when compared to Zelda's. A Diddy with a banana in his hand is super scary. Stuff like Nayru's or Phantom is just begging to be baited and punished, and if you fail once, he can end your stock. Zelda has to take considerable risk if she wants to hit him with her high reward moves, Diddy, on the other thand, takes no risk but everything he does has huge reward.

The key factor here is that, outside of punishes, Diddy doesn't really have any reliable way to land
grabs except for his banana. Having a banana in his hand severely limits his options, he loses his fantastic
normals and is restricted to throwing or dropping it, monkey flipping or shooting peanuts. And to get
a grab followup from it he needs throw it at relatively close range and close to the ground, because his air speed
is quite bad.

Phantom is only really punishable if you're actively trying to hit him with it. Just quick deployments
at reasonable distances stops him from bum-rushing you with his banana or any of his ground tools
aside from monkey flip, again. His slow air speed restricts his ability to punish it outside of blocks or overshoots.

Though I should mention that he does have another very problematic move in Dtilt, which is like ours but on crack.
Fair is oppressive, but ultimately is mostly a spacing and combo finisher move and thus, not that rewarding by
Diddy standards. (Even if it can kill on sweetspot)

And no offense, but if you just enter a fight thinking only of how your opponent's damage potential
exceeds yours on confirm without thinking of ways to combat them, you've probably already lost. It certainly
doesn't make things easier, but fuming in jealousy isn't going to do anything to help.

 

[Joaco]

don't get grabbed

 

[JigglyZelda003]

is this all for Diddy? I guess we'll move on tomorrow if nothing else

 

[Berserker.]

This match-up makes me want to hang myself

You should use this to summarize the Diddy MU. All jokes, I think you should move on to the next character

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well I mean we are scheduled to move on tomorrow anyway, I was just hoping for more discussion lol

 

[BJN39]

Kinda disappointed tbh, I was expecting to see a little more Diddy player talk. I guess they don't have tyme for characters like Zeldurp. :'^)

Also, I'll put my scoring of this at 4:6. Will get the calculated score for Diddy here soon too.

 

[Fernosaur]

I say 65:35 in Diddy's favor because, while there are ways to not get grabbed, any whiff on Zelda's part is a free grab that will rack up massive damage because Zelda is a sitting duck in the air. For once, though, she's much better off-stage than he is so as someone else said that should be super capitalized upon. Like really, maybe even foregoing d-throws for f or bthrows when you're close to the edges just to do your best to keep the off-stage pressure might be a good idea.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

so G@W. People say this character sucks now but that doesn't help Zelda. He has an annoying air game, the 9 is easier to hit with, he can't be gimped,all if his big hits hurt...Zelda's only real benefit us he can die early and no more bucket breaking

 

[BJN39]

IDK what they were smoking when they decided half of his moves should be so safe on shield. Like, dash attack and Usmash have no end lag, not to mention his Usmash is literally unchallengeable due to head invincibility. A lot of his aerials appear to have oodles of landing lag (Need to check and verify.) so there's that.

He's also got the shortness outside of crouching, meaning placing a aerials or use of Usmash (If you actually decide to use it.) would be harder. He IS among the lightest , and gets KO'ed nice and early by FW elevators.

I'll go tell the G&W boards very soon.