Meta Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Jigglypuff

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Jigglypuff

Welcome to the Rosalina vs. Jigglypuff match-up analysis thread. This thread will be used to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Jigglypuff. For all the rules on the round 2 match-up discussions, please refer to the directory thread.

Last Updated: 4/10/2016

Special Moves Allowed| |
Default only | | +1 - +1.5
Default + Custom | | +2.5

Spoiler: Score Inputs

Default only
Codaption: +1 - +2
Invisi: ±0 - +1
MisterDom: +2
RDR7: ±0 - +1
Underhill: ±0 - +1
vegeta18: +2

Default + Custom
MisterDom: +3
Underhill: +2

 

[MisterDom]

Hey Mario & Sonic Guy! I'd love to give some input in my perspective as a Jigglypuff main to help you guys out.

Default only: +2

Some may be surprised by this since Jigglypuff is such a low tier character, and many would think that the score should be the highest, but Jigglypuff should not be underrated. Rosalina is combo meat for Jigglypuff because she is vertialy huge (Jiggs combos horizontally most of the time), and Rosa can die at 50% to rest, which is actually pretty early compared to other characters. However, since Rosalina is thin, it is harder to rest her.

Gimping is also somewhat easy for Jigglypuff, since Rosalina is wide open during recovery. It is important to put on pressure with Rosa while recovering by using Luma, or spacing up airs, down airs, or back airs depending on the situation (Fairs will have too much lag if it isn't obvious enough). Usually, Jigglypuff will be below and to the side of the stage to either QUICKLY chase you with a fair or two killing you (it's faster than you think), or to guard the ledge for a ledge guard, or to start a combo by ledeg guarding. The safest option (against me anyway) is to recover BACK ON STAGE avoiding the ledge. It could be safer since Jigglypuff is generally slow, and will probably not be able to chase you down for a punish. If you're facing a mediocre Jigglypuff player who doesn't quite have the concept of ledge guarding down, than perhaps you should go to the ledge, but a good Jigglypuff is a DEADLY Jigglypuff!

This matchup will probably play out as a bunch of defensive play since both characters play very defensively, but Jigglypuff has somewhat of an offensive game, and could come at you. When I play Rosa, this is what I want!! Rosalina has combos out of grabs and spacey moves, and it does out space Jigglypuff. The best offensive option for Jigglypuff is fair becuase it can separate Luma and rosa, and with little landing lag, Jigglypuff can grab with bad reaction time by the Rosa player. In this situation, you'll want to grab! Down smash or forward smash is also a good option becuase poking sheild with fair isn't safe for Jigglypuff, and many do that. Going back to grabs, Down throw to up airs won't work as well because of weight, but down throw to fair can still work for awhile. Also, Jigglypuff will be superior in the air, so try to stay on the ground unless you get Jiggs in the air by an up air or up tilt. Jigglypuff has poor landing and jumping frames, so punishing with a down air can be safe, but while landing she crouches, so many punishes can whiff or miss.

Jigglypuff also can only jump back on stage, making recovering horizontally unsafe for her as we can spike Jigglypuff with down air, or hit her to the side. Jigglypuff isn't the only good ledge guarder in this MU!

My final will be that you can probably get out of some combos because of nair, dair, or jumping because Jigglypuff can't really chase opponents well, on top of bad frame data to hit you with another move. This is just a theory though. Don't quote me on this one!

Because you outspace Jigglypuff, and have powerful moves, you guys do win the matchup. however, spacing aerials is harder, and you're generally unsafe in the air! Please please stay on the ground unless you know you can get a down air roll read or punish or combo in the air. Don't be too aggressive.

Customs on: +3

The same MU, but you guys have a better option or two now! The star bit projectile will be badish for Jiggs becuase of her floaty ness, and jumping and landing lag. She can only sheild the move, or air dodge it, which is Only one option on a domain. I'm pretty sure Jigglypuff can't crounch under it, so that's good for you guys right?

Jigglypuff doesn't have good customs, but many puff players use pound blitz instead of pound. This will change toe MU, but in YOUR favor. The combo out of it is usually up air, and thigh we might be able to string an up air or two at the beginning of a stock, you guys should be able to dair us. This makes landing fairs much harder for Jiggs sometimes, and that's her second best thing to string off of ( behind dair, which we usually can't land ).

Hope this helped I wrote this kinda quick so let me know if there's errors.

 

[Codaption]

I'm not really sure how to do things under "Rosalina's perspective," so as a Jiggs player forgive me if I talk more from her side. It's much easier for me to explain things that way, anyway.

In the onstage airspace, I'd say that Rosie wins pretty easily. SoRo alone has the range to keep us out, and with Luma in the equation things can only get worse (Luma Uair is scary and pops us like the balloon animal we are). And do I really need to discuss the ground in depth? It's no contest.

I admittedly haven't played any good Rosalinas with much frequency, so my idea of our approach game against her isn't all that defined, but I cannot see it going well. Luma is basically a projectile with fists, after all- and of course, Comet Punch is a fighting-type move.... We play a wily little sprite, so we can probably maneuver around it or clank with Luma Shot with Nair (no clue, just conjecture), so keep this in mind when sending the little guy out and pulling him back in.

So, obviously Rosie has no real trouble keeping Puff out. But what happens if she can't?

Rosie is tall, light, and floaty, meaning that our Rest setups kill pretty early while still being fairly easy to pull off, and outside of those we're no slouch with combos (Rosie is also subsceptible to our 0-death, iirc). You can kill us pretty darn early with Luma on the board, but generally us getting in is a lot scarier than you getting in.

As far as shielding goes, Rosie may find herself having a harder time than most do against us- our Fair is safe on shield when retreated, allowing us some pressure AND some easy chip damage on Luma. Pound can finish the job, and since it also wrecks Luma it makes it that much harder for you to pull off your unique shield-pop bait. (all this means that Luma may not be present all that much, alleviating some of your kill power for the duration- while Rosie faces this a lot and can generally stall until Luma comes back, our aerial mobility means you'll have a bit more trouble with that.) Since Luma can do silly things to grabs and our grab game isn't all that fantastic anyway, don't expect to see much of those around- rather, you'll want to focus on punishing the slightest spacing flub. Since Rest works as an oos option, you'll want to make sure you don't mess up yourself...

Offstage....offstage is interesting. Your recovery is basically Pit's but with less leniency in angles, and you don't have Upperdash Arm to cover some of the slack. Rosalina doesnt necessarily NEED to use Launch Star every time, of course- she still has decent airspeed and an okayish double jump, as well as her aerials and Star Bits to disrupt us. If we force you to use it, though, you're left with two options: go high, or go for ledge. If we're already close by, it might not even matter- flying straight into Bair isn't all that fun. Basically? You might die, so don't get sent offstage. As for us, well....not many people can edgeguard us, and I don't really see this being too different. If Rosie has some crazy offstage trick up her sleeve, let me know.

All in all? This is very doable for Rosalina, as long as you follow the advice of Isiah and don't get hit. I'd place it at +2 Rosie, maaaaybe +1- Rosie's ability to keep Puff out outweighs the consequences of failing to do so, in my eyes.

I'm not particularly well-versed in Rosie's customs, so I won't go into detail. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize things only get better for her in a customs environment, though perhaps only by another point. The only real alternative move we have in our arsenal is Pound Blitz (which is basically a straight upgrade of vanilla Pound sans the startup lag). This move is important to know, since due to lowered knockback and endlag it's probably our best Rest setup (it also extends our recovery). Leaping Rest also has a bit of a following, but it's not all that fantastic and I myself prefer vanilla over it. As for everything else... one look at Spinphony should tell you everything you need to know.

 

[vegeta18]

I think it's +2 for rosalina default only. Jigglypuff doesn't have the tools to get in , you can react to rollout with dtilt easily, Rosa's anti air game is really strong so puff can't really approach from the air at all, she will struggle from rosalina's range and disjoints, also it will be extremely hard to get in close enough for a rest to hit. Also puff being ridiculously light doesn't help, luma with rage is a scary thing and can easily kill puff at low percents, especially an upsmash as an anti air or juggle, can send her flying.

If puff does get rosalina off stage though this can cause some major problems for rosalina, Rosa is light floaty and also a huge target , puff can really annoy and get some strong edge guard. Also rosalina has no hitbox on her recovery and has a bit of start up. Puff can disrupt this and gimp Rosa easily.

 

[Codaption]

you can react to rollout with dtilt easily

Rollout is a move that isn't really used all that much by Puff players, and with Luma sometimes being the one to take the hit it's an especially terrible option against Rosie. Do not worry about this move.

Everything else you said seemed spot-on, that in particular just stuck out to me.

 

[MisterDom]

Luma protects Rosa when Jigglypuff used rollout. If you have Luna, use her as a sheild and then use a smash attack. Jigglypuff has a slow animation in place after she lands rollout; she spins in a circle, slowly landing to the ground. It's a better option than down tilt!

 

[Brellow]

Jigglypuff shouldn't use Rollout if Luma is in play because Luma stops it and leaves Puff open for punishment. If Luma already has alot of damage then maybe it'll be ok because it'll get rid of her for a short time.

 

[Underhill]

Well, time to give what I think of the MU. This match-up is even or +1 for . Custom, I think its +2 for .

Against Jigglypuff, you want to make it work for her approaches because Jigglypuff can combo her and put pressure on her because of her height so she will try to play aggressive. Jigg's rest can kill Rosalina when she's at 68% or higher so don't throw out a laggy move. Plus, she's easy to be hit since she's tall and a easy target for Jigglypuff's rest. Jigglypuff's air attacks(back-air, ) and her air speed can help her split both R&L so she can get Luma off stage. Up-smash and up-tile are anti-air against Jigglypuff since it lacks the range to challenge her moves. Your up-air also works against Jigglypuff to out-range, jiggly, and to get a early kill if you read the air dodge. Star bits are somewhat useful against Jigglypuff for spacing, but otherwise, not much. Jabs, you'll better off finishing it up because Jigglypuff can easily escape the combos because of her light weight. While Jigglypuff can gimp Rosalina easily out of her recovery, Jigglypuff will have to be careful recovering low and if Rosalina hit her with her down-air spike with enough percent, then Jigglypuff won't be able to make it back so she can't snap the ledge, easily meaning that Rosalina can also be harass Jigglypuff with Down-Smash and down-tile.

Stages: I would pick Battlefield and Dreamland against Jigglypuff because not only can Rosalina use the platforms to pressure, jiggle Jigglypuff even more, and give her a hard time landing because of her height and range; But also use the platforms for her Launch Star as a recovery option and have less landing lag on the way. Delfino Plaza and Halberb will favor Rosalina more than Jigglypuff because she can get early vertical kills because of the low ceiling and Jigglypuff being the lightest character. Also, she can use platforms to jiggle and pressure like Battlefield.

Customs: Shooting star bit can help Rosalina even more and give Jigglypuff a harder time, approaching. Its better than the default star bits since she has a projectile in her hand for forcing defensive options, baiting, and harass Jigglypuff off-stage as well. For Guardian Luma, I would go ahead and use it since the default is useless and Jigglypuff has no projectile. Plus, you can use it for spacing or as a surprise attack.

 

[Codaption]

Stages: I would pick Battlefield and Dreamland against Jigglypuff because not only can Rosalina use the platforms to pressure, jiggle Jigglypuff even more, and give her a hard time landing because of her height and range; But also use the platforms for her Launch Star as a recovery option and have less landing lag on the way. Delfino Plaza and Halberb will favor Rosalina more than Jigglypuff because she can get early vertical kills because of the low ceiling and Jigglypuff being the lightest character. Also, she can use platforms to jiggle and pressure like Battlefield.

-Battlefield is pretty good for us, too, though it probably benefits Rosie more than us. That said, keep in mind that she can mix up her recovery in the exact same ways that you can (and probably do it better, too), and if we start our combos on a platform things can get really scary really fast. Utilt-> Rest can kill....

-You most certainly do not want to go to Dreamland against us, though. You do realize that this is one of our best stages, right? The huge offstage stage gives us plenty of leeway with edgeguarding, wind screws with people, and the lower ceiling is more of a boon than a curse because our mobility lets us avoid the platforms until the exact moment we want to start using them for ourselves (and hoooo boy are our Rest setups even more devastating here). This in conjunction with all the benefits we get from BF mean you definitely want to choose that stage over this one given the chance.

-Delfino I'd normally see your logic, but the water canceling Rest's endlag means we can pretty much just throw the move out in certain transformations, and during the in-between phases we can very easily stall until the ceiling returns to normal. We do very well there, don't take us there unless you're confident you can use the stage's jank better than the other player.

-You're pretty much spot-on about Halberd, but that's literally the first thing we ban against pretty much the entire cast. If the Puff player is dumb enough to leave it open, you wouldn't even need this stage and its horrible bias against us.

 

[Underhill]

-Battlefield is pretty good for us, too, though it probably benefits Rosie more than us. That said, keep in mind that she can mix up her recovery in the exact same ways that you can (and probably do it better, too), and if we start our combos on a platform things can get really scary really fast. Utilt-> Rest can kill....

-You most certainly do not want to go to Dreamland against us, though. You do realize that this is one of our best stages, right? The huge offstage stage gives us plenty of leeway with edgeguarding, wind screws with people, and the lower ceiling is more of a boon than a curse because our mobility lets us avoid the platforms until the exact moment we want to start using them for ourselves (and hoooo boy are our Rest setups even more devastating here). This in conjunction with all the benefits we get from BF mean you definitely want to choose that stage over this one given the chance.

-Delfino I'd normally see your logic, but the water canceling Rest's endlag means we can pretty much just throw the move out in certain transformations, and during the in-between phases we can very easily stall until the ceiling returns to normal. We do very well there, don't take us there unless you're confident you can use the stage's jank better than the other player.

-You're pretty much spot-on about Halberd, but that's literally the first thing we ban against pretty much the entire cast. If the Puff player is dumb enough to leave it open, you wouldn't even need this stage and its horrible bias against us.

Oh wow. I forgot that Jigglypuff can also use the platforms for her recovery as well. As for Dreamland, you made a good point about the wind screwing Rosalina over. Delfino, I might make use off the water cancel rest when I play Jigglypuff. I also forgot to mention about Lylat Cruise being Rosalina's worst stage and it can favor Jigglypuff there because the stage moves and if she misses the ledge, then she's dead.

Thanks for telling me this. I know about Jigglypuff in some level and play her decently, but I don't have the same knowledge that you have. Plus, I don't get a lot of good Jigglypuff players to face on Smash Ladder.

 

[Codaption]

No problemo, friend~

Lylat's an interesting thought, really- though I'm not sure how well we do there, I can't see us having the same recovery issues that other characters might. Could anyone give thoughts on this?

 

[MisterDom]

No problemo, friend~

Lylat's an interesting thought, really- though I'm not sure how well we do there, I can't see us having the same recovery issues that other characters might. Could anyone give thoughts on this?

Usually Lylat isn't too much of a problem, but it can be if it's a tight recovery. I usually pick Lylat for becuase it screws with a lot of characters. Isn't too much of a problem overall. I think we do pretty decently well.

 

[Codaption]

Righto, thanks for the confirmation.

Could going to the ledge with Pound help in the tight situations you mentioned? It doesn't sweetspot the ledge, but it DOES snap right to it as soon as the move ends. I feel like that could help a bit.

 

[MisterDom]

Righto, thanks for the confirmation.

Could going to the ledge with Pound help in the tight situations you mentioned? It doesn't sweetspot the ledge, but it DOES snap right to it as soon as the move ends. I feel like that could help a bit.

You should generally use pound when recovering, but once you're almost done getting to the ledge and you have at least two jumps left, I suggest to not use pound. The chances of pound screwing us over at the ledge are about as big as me playing as perfectly as I can for a whole tourney (not too big). It also depends on which pound you use. Sometimes the stage could be tilting away and if we use a pound with more lag, than the stage could tilt away more. (which could be good or bad). If we use pound at the ledge than we're also vurneable for a little bit (applies to all stages), so I think we shouldn't use pound once we're basically done recovering, but it could be used for protection (in some cases) if you use pound a little over the ledge. Don't beleive every word becuase some of this is theory.

 

[Codaption]

I really only use Pound for recovery myself if I feel I need that extra little distance to get to the ledge, because testing I did a while back showed that even Rising Pound didn't really do much for your recovery- and even then, you're leaving yourself open for a potential punish there.

(applying this to Vanilla Pound only, of course, because you should be abusing Pound Blitz like no tomorrow to get that extra distance offstage.)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Jigglypuff is being analyzed again for this week. If you have anything to contribute for the match-up, especially in regards to the newest software update, this is the place to do it.

 

[Jiggly]

RDR7 knows this MU really well, hit them up with the facts!

 

[RDR7]

This matchup is -1 slightly in Rosa's favor possibly even? especially if you let her go to Duck Hunt because a campy playstyle works too well with that amount of space. (always ban duck hunt against rosa if you are using puff.) I more so agree with 55-45 rosa favor tho but the opinion varies. Although with my recent 2-0 win on Eldin's rosalina I believe crouch is great in this matchup to counteract against Rosalina's grab release to luma upsmash which she has on a certain odd number of characters. (correct me if I'm wrong I don't know if it's on everyone.) Jigglypuff can exploit Rosalina's recovery and constantly dash attack luma to kill it or whilst carrying Rosa with wall of pain fairs. If Rosa gets out I just usually keep hitting Luma if Luma is present. I'm not sure if it's the most effective way to kill luma but I found it pretty useful using dash attack over WOP. This matchup is nowhere near a land slide and I personally think this matchup is very doable in high level play. Lemme start with pros and cons.
Jigglypuff Pros
-Can exploit Rosa's recovery.
-Rest exists
-Grabbing Rosa is very effective (each grab is 10 damage)
-Floaty great for weaving in and out for mind games.
-Superior damage game (usually wins trades)
-Can crouch rosa's grab and punish her hard at 40
-Jigglypuff's airdodge game can flop spacing (I know this sounds stupid but this has frustrated a lot of rosa mains I have played. Jigglypuff's air mobility and jumps make her mediocre air dodge into a godly approach tool)
Rosalina Pros
-Great frame data
-Nairplane beats dash attack because it will hit Jigglypuff from behind where her trample does not exist.
-Upsmash is an insane punish option and can effectively punish badly spaced aerials (which can happen a lot not necessarily saying it's reliant on error, even I do it.)
-True rest combos are insanely hard to hit on Rosa. Up air rest, fair rest, dair rest.
-Grab release luma upsmash can kill around 90ish maybe 100 not sure. Rosas can lab it.
-The only punish options that Puff has on a crouching Rosa is dash attack and rest oos. Difficult to react to considering her dtilt is pretty quick.
-If a puff doesn't ban duck hunt rosa can just easily camp her out and run away because of the amount of space.
-Rosas who space bair properly are really annoying but I respect it because that's what you have to do and it can work.

There take it and spice it up with some salt, wrap it in plastic do whatever. That's my thoughts.

 

[Invisi]

Hey there, not sure if I'm too late to this. Hopefully my input will still be useful =)

I'm a Puff main and a Rosa secondary, so I have a good idea of how both characters play, though my MU experience is limited as I'm really the only player of both characters in my local scene (and even then my Rosa is pretty mediocre).

Overall, Rosa's keep-away style gameplay is very effective against Puff. Her large aerials can wall out Puff and hamper her ability to do anything useful.

Puff also struggles to get rid of Luma. Like a number of other characters (MK comes to mind here), Puff's main tool of getting rid of Luma (Pound) is unsafe on shield. If Rosa can punish attempts to remove Luma and then camp until Luma returns, Puff will have a hard time dealing with that.

Also useful knowledge for this MU is grab release usmash. I don't really know how this setup works and need to look a bit more into it, but from my testing in training mode (using 2 controllers at 1/4 speed) it seems that most characters can actually escape this with a buffered airdodge. Not so for Puff. Unfortunately, Puff is cursed with a frame 4 airdodge, a trait she shares with only the heavy-archetype characters of the game. This extra frame causes the grab-release usmash to connect, even if an airdodge is buffered.

There are parts of the matchup in Puff's favour, however. Like a lot of Puff's matchups, her low weight, low fall speed, multiple jumps and general aerial mobility very much limit the effectiveness of the aerial combo game of her opponent. Rosalina's uair pressure, and ability to set this up off a grab, is one of the the things that make her very strong as a character, and this pressure is very much diminished in this matchup. The reward is much greater as it will kill much earlier, but you shouldn't be landing uairs unless Puff makes a mistake.

On top of this, Rosa isn't that much heavier than Puff, and Puff hits hard. I believe rest's kill percent on FD with no rage is approximately 45%. Rosa's large hurtbox also makes landing rest a little easier, even if her general keep-away playstyle makes it difficult to find an opening to land it. Bair will be killing at ~75% at the ledge or ~90% from centre stage, and utilt from ~110%. (Note I haven't tested these numbers, I'm just approximating based on Puff experience). Puff won't be getting in as much as Rosa, but when she does the reward is much higher.

Overall, I would rate the matchup as either +½ or +1 from Rosa's perspective. It's definitely in her favour due to her ability to wall out Puff, but you have to be playing on edge the whole time, as one slip up can see your stock ending very prematurely.