Meta Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Fox

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Fox

Welcome to the Rosalina vs. Fox match-up analysis thread. This thread will be used to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Fox. For all the rules on the round 2 match-up discussions, please refer to the directory thread.

Last Updated: 8/21/2016

Special Moves Allowed| |
Default only | | +1
Default + Custom | | N/A

Spoiler: Score Inputs

Default only
DavemanCozy: +1
GwJ: ±0
Planty: +2

Default + Custom

 

[GwJ]

I have a lot of trouble in this match up. Fox's Usmash were already potent kill moves, but they're even more potent on someone as light as Rosalina. I consistently die at like 90-100% from one of these. Fox is also fast enough that he can get right by Luma and do his moves without the chance for Luma to even interrupt him.

On the upside, Rosalina's great at edgeguarding and Fox isn't great offstage. This usually means we get a free recovery and we get an easy-ish gimp game.

One of the major problems with this matchup is Fox deals an insane amount of damage if he can get a good hit on you at low percent. A pivot Ftilt is gonna mean a Utilt, dropping fair, Dsmash for you and that brings you up to like 50-60% from just one hit basically.

It's frustrating to challenge Fox's Illusion too. If you hit him, great. If he hits you, he gets a free Uair (which is a kill move by the way). This is one of those matchups where a lot of your deaths will have you saying "Did I just get punished for trying to punish him?"

I'm not sure what the rating was last time, but I'm honestly gonna put this at about an even +/- 0. When we get hits in, it's devastation. When he gets hit in, it's devastation.

 

[Planty]

So in this matchup (from Rosa's perspective), you want to pull a Dabuz and be as campy as you possibly can. Let me explain.(No customs)

You're going to want to stay about long-mid-ish range. Close enough that Fox can't safely shoot lasers, but far enough that you could react to his ground speed. All his grounded approaches are beaten by D-tilt (and possibly jab). His aerial approaches are beaten by U-tilt or U-smash.

If Fox starts shooting lasers, you're close enough that you could easily punish with a Dash attack or U-smash.

If Fox doesn't want to approach, you could advance Luma with jabs and pester him that way.

So overall: ROSALINA DOMINATES NEUTRAL AND THERE'S NOT MUCH FOX CAN DO ABOUT IT.

If you put Fox in a disadvantaged state: Once Fox is offstage, he's pretty much dead. Illusion gets beaten out by everything and firefox sucks. You can also juggle him really hard. Another lesser known thing is that at super low %, fast fallers could get u-thrown to jab. It deals a ton of damage and they have difficulty getting out.

If you get put in disadvantaged state: Your floatiness can get you out of some combos and you can easily DI his throw combos. You also get a free recovery back to the stage.

One thing that a lot of people say is that Fox kills really easily... and that's not entirely true. He could kill early, but all his upsmash setups are attacks. That means you could just hold shield against him and survive a super long time. None of his throws kill at reasonable %. If he throws you offstage, he doesn't edgeguard you. If he throws you up to set up a landing trap, just fall to the ledge. Fox has difficulty killing shield heavy people.

On the other hand killing Fox is super easy with edgeguarding.

To sum it up: Rosalina dominates neutral. Rosalina kills Fox much more easily than Fox kills her. They both take about the same damage from a disadvantaged state, but Fox will be in a disadvantaged state much more often (and he dies more easily).

I give this a +2 in Rosalina's favor.

 

[GwJ]

Do you have any good videos to demonstrate what you're saying? It's not that I don't disagree with you at all. What you're saying makes sense. I'm just new-ish to Rosa and I'm getting consistently beaten by a player I feel I'm better than but plays Fox.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ GwJ : Is your score under default only (customs OFF) conditions?

I do know that because of Reflector, Rosalina can't rely on her Star Bit customs to put pressure on Fox, since he'll just reflect them right back at her or the Luma. Likewise, Reflector makes using Luma Shot a very foolish choice for Rosalina, but at least Luma Warp can't be reflected.

 

[Planty]

Do you have any good videos to demonstrate what you're saying? It's not that I don't disagree with you at all. What you're saying makes sense. I'm just new-ish to Rosa and I'm getting consistently beaten by a player I feel I'm better than but plays Fox.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md1J21bgmn4

You can see that Dabuz is playing super patiently against Larry's Fox, especially on the first stock. I don't know what all those rolls from Dabuz were about, but it can be a pretty good baseline to start working on the matchup with. If you want more videos, just search: Rosalina vs Fox

 

[GwJ]

@ GwJ : Is your score under default only (customs OFF) conditions?

I do know that because of Reflector, Rosalina can't rely on her Star Bit customs to put pressure on Fox, since he'll just reflect them right back at her or the Luma. Likewise, Reflector makes using Luma Shot a very foolish choice for Rosalina, but at least Luma Warp can't be reflected.

Sorry, that was meant to be customs off. I have no opinion of the customs matchup.

 

[Viewtiful Rain]

I feel like Fox's problem with Rosalina is that a good Rosalina player is like a good Fox player. Both need to be one step ahead but Rosalina has Luma to help out and cover space that Fox needs to approach. Obviously, everyone will say separate Rosalina and Luma since that's the issue but that isn't the case. Most of the time, when you separate the two with Fox it's too late capitalize and they have already done enough damage for Rosalina to get the KO on her own with a good read. In a nutshell, if you want to beat Rosalina with Fox you have to bring your A game and be ready for whatever she can do. If you need to be one step ahead to get Luma away, then you need two steps to get the KO. His speed can overwhelm the duo and do combos but you can't be reckless

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I have a lot of trouble in this match up. Fox's Usmash were already potent kill moves, but they're even more potent on someone as light as Rosalina. I consistently die at like 90-100% from one of these. Fox is also fast enough that he can get right by Luma and do his moves without the chance for Luma to even interrupt him.

On the upside, Rosalina's great at edgeguarding and Fox isn't great offstage. This usually means we get a free recovery and we get an easy-ish gimp game.

One of the major problems with this matchup is Fox deals an insane amount of damage if he can get a good hit on you at low percent. A pivot Ftilt is gonna mean a Utilt, dropping fair, Dsmash for you and that brings you up to like 50-60% from just one hit basically.

It's frustrating to challenge Fox's Illusion too. If you hit him, great. If he hits you, he gets a free Utilt (which is a kill move by the way). This is one of those matchups where a lot of your deaths will have you saying "Did I just get punished for trying to punish him?"

I'm not sure what the rating was last time, but I'm honestly gonna put this at about an even +/- 0. When we get hits in, it's devastation. When he gets hit in, it's devastation.

You can dtilt him out of illusion pretty easily. Once you get to kill percentages don't jump. Anything you do will be a free usmash punish. Falln vs Nakat is a good example of the MU.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Fox is being analyzed again for this week. If you have anything to contribute for the match-up, especially in regards to the newest software update, this is the place to do it.

 

[GwJ]

Rosaline wins this matchup. Fox has no guaranteed kill setups out of grab so he loses to shield and our keepaway game is excellent at preventing Fox from getting in on us to do his combos. At low percents, we can uthrow to rapid jab for 20-30 damage depending on if they SDI it. Fox is a fast faller so our uair juggles are very potent. He's light so our uair/usmash kills relatively early too. Dtilt always stops side-b if they go for the ledge.

Fox's Usmash and Bair are also very strong and can kill us early. Fox has crazy burst potential so you can't afford to get too comfortable in the matchup or else you'll get completely stomped.

Still though, Rosa definitely wins this +1

 

[Royug]

Dtilt always stops side-b if they go for the ledge.

Is d-tilt the best way to stop his side-B ? I was thinking an offstage n-air would work better, since it's kind of a lingering move. Also crouch Starbits could work too I think, but the knockback is smaller of course.

 

[GwJ]

Nah, Dtilt is the best way to deal with it. Easiest to time, requires the least amount of reading to land. Once you do it a couple times, they'll start to side-b above your dtilt, but you can read that and usmash their face. The nice thing about dtilt compared to star bits is it pushes them far away so they have to keep side-b'ing over and over or use their up-b. Either one leads to death. Look up my matches vs Dugan and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Planty]

Is d-tilt the best way to stop his side-B ? I was thinking an offstage n-air would work better, since it's kind of a lingering move. Also crouch Starbits could work too I think, but the knockback is smaller of course.

Dabuz always sticks with D-tilt. I'm guessing he knows what he's doing. If all you want to do is hit Fox out of his side-b, Fair is the best option. However, D-tilt is superior because you get to keep stage control if you mess up and also be ready to hit him with a Dair if he starts an Up-b.

 

[GwJ]

Here's the video I'm talking about

 

[Majora MIM]

One question though, (supposing you have enough time), would desyncing Luma and placing him next to the ledge help with catching sweetspoted side-B? (if Fox recovers low enough he can avoid D-tilt, so I was wondering)

Also, if you have even more time and start a rapid jab below the ledge, can it catch Fox side/up-B or would it trade and result in a dead Luma?

 

[EnhaloTricks]

One question though, (supposing you have enough time), would desyncing Luma and placing him next to the ledge help with catching sweetspoted side-B? (if Fox recovers low enough he can avoid D-tilt, so I was wondering)

Also, if you have even more time and start a rapid jab below the ledge, can it catch Fox side/up-B or would it trade and result in a dead Luma?

Fox main here, just answering this rq.

If you're already rapid jabbing, Illusion AND Firefox get beaten. Their hitboxes are really small and Luma's are huge lol. I've literally been stuck underneath BF for 15-20 seconds just trying to firefox to ledge and getting stopped by a rapid jab below the ledge. It will never kill, but it's free damage, keeps Fox from getting back onstage, and gets into their head.

Desynch Luma off-stage is a nightmare, tbh. Not impossible to get around, just not fun for the Fox main. I don't know if I would go for it every time if I was a Rosaluma main, since it does take some time to set up, but if you can it's definitely worth it.

 

[Planty]

One question though, (supposing you have enough time), would desyncing Luma and placing him next to the ledge help with catching sweetspoted side-B? (if Fox recovers low enough he can avoid D-tilt, so I was wondering)

Also, if you have even more time and start a rapid jab below the ledge, can it catch Fox side/up-B or would it trade and result in a dead Luma?

Fox main here, just answering this rq.

If you're already rapid jabbing, Illusion AND Firefox get beaten. Their hitboxes are really small and Luma's are huge lol. I've literally been stuck underneath BF for 15-20 seconds just trying to firefox to ledge and getting stopped by a rapid jab below the ledge. It will never kill, but it's free damage, keeps Fox from getting back onstage, and gets into their head.

Desynch Luma off-stage is a nightmare, tbh. Not impossible to get around, just not fun for the Fox main. I don't know if I would go for it every time if I was a Rosaluma main, since it does take some time to set up, but if you can it's definitely worth it.

You guys really need to clear up what you're talking about. Are you referring to the Dabuz edgeguard (I don't even know if we're calling it that) where Luma is doing his rapid jab right below the ledge and Rosa is doing hers right above the ledge or are you referring to the Luma spin where Luma does the rapid jab while Rosa moves and attacks freely?

 

[EnhaloTricks]

You guys really need to clear up what you're talking about. Are you referring to the Dabuz edgeguard (I don't even know if we're calling it that) where Luma is doing his rapid jab right below the ledge and Rosa is doing hers right above the ledge or are you referring to the Luma spin where Luma does the rapid jab while Rosa moves and attacks freely?

I was referring to the first.

 

[Planty]

I was referring to the first.

In that case Fox can just side-b over you and get a punish. Not a very smart option in this MU.

 

[GwJ]

and that's why you edgeguard with dtilt. You don't have to commit to the rapid jab. If you think he'll recover high, just usmash instead.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I think this is one of Fox's hardest matchups in the game. I'd give it +1 for Rosa, 6:4 if you like that sort of ratio thing.

I see that offstage is being discussed, which is good. It's pretty hard for Fox to come back against RosaLuma edgeguarding him, he has to rely on fairly linear recoveries that can be interrupted with good timing. Your hitboxes are also pretty bulky, they interrupt both his recoveries. If he hangs on the ledge, you can interrupt anything he does by just holding rapid jabs or timing D-tilt well.

Also, Luma's Jab hit will KO Fox at something stupidly high like 180%. D-tilt is better since it guarantees an earlier KO.

If you watch Larry, you'll notice he'll focus his assault on separating them and beating up Luma. Fox can use D-air and F-throw's hitbox (if Luma is closer to you) to do this. You definitely want to keep Luma close to you more often than not; she makes it much harder for Fox to touch Rosa, without her Fox has a considerably easier time baiting something out of you and punishing.

You should also be careful of Fox's U-air. It can KO Rosa pretty early. Fox doesn't have any guaranteed setups into it nor into his B-air or U-smash, but he has 50/50 setups into them involving dash attack, soft n-air and D-air's last hit. His only throw combos are at low percents, and they should never KO you unless you're in a dumb position (like a platform in T&C going offstage or the top platform of Battlefield+bad DI).

Stages is really dependent on you, I think you're still at an advantage in all of them.

 

[GwJ]

I'd like to amend my position on the matchup and state that it's more or less even with a slide advantage towards Rosa, but still close enough that I think it's an even matchup. Both characters are just as good at beating on each other. Rosa has her rapid jab in the neutral to punish a whiffed dash attack or roll read, uair will often hit twice because of Fox's fall speed, and her edgeguarding is fantastic on Fox. However, Fox's neutral game excels at being just close enough to you that you'll try and punish something then Fox can run in an punish you. Fox's punishes are devastating on Rosa. A dash attack will almost always lead into a uair will can kill Rosa as early as 80 (maybe even earlier). Rosa is one of the slowest fallers (if not the slowest) in the game, so Fox has many opportunities to land uairs on us on the way down. Rosa has no hitbox on her recovery so, with proper timing, Fox can edgeguard us as hard as we can edgeguard him.

tl;dr We both do stupid stuff to each other and it's even. I think higher level players would agree with me on this.

 

[Megamang]

So we know that we destroy fox offstage.


How do you guys get him there? PP dtilt? F/bthrow? Luma nair/dair? Jabs?

What tool do you have to get him offstage?

I personally just go for juggles, and try to cover mid stage. This forces him near the ledge; here a f/dtilt or dashgrab or even dash attack can get him offstage. Nair or fair or dair on an airdodge, depending on position, is also a good power play from a juggle to get him offstage. I find centre stage is super important in this mu because fox covers the ledge extremely well. Utilt 2 frame is disgustingly easy and effective, and it leads to bair > repeat all day. Ugh. So stay away from the ledge!

Ooh, also RAR bair quickly in neutral is a nice way to call out a jump or something and send him flying offstage, and Luma is pretty huge when you bair so fox's smallish hitboxes dont save him.

Im no expert though. What do you guys do to get fox offstage?