Meta Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Kirby

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Kirby

Welcome to the Rosalina vs. Kirby match-up analysis thread. This thread will be used to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Kirby. For all the rules on the round 2 match-up discussions, please refer to the directory thread.

Last Updated: 4/3/2016

Special Moves Allowed| |
Default only | | +1 - +1.5
Default + Custom | | +1

Spoiler: Score Inputs

Default only
Kaishin: +2
Mazdamaxsti: +2
SapphSabre777: +2
ToastPerson: +1
Underhill: +1
Wintermelon43: ±0 - +1

Default + Custom
Kaishin: +2
Mazdamaxsti: ±0
Underhill: +1
Wintermelon43: ±0 - +1

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I will update this post later with an explanation, but kirby loses 40:60 in default but 50:50 with customs on.

 

[Kaishin]

That's pretty generous. What does Kirby have that's even remotely dangerous to us? I've lost to Kirby before as Rosalina, sure, but when you consider the facts we destroy Kirby.
Our neutral is better, our edgeguards are better, our damage output is better, our killing power is way, way better.

Kirby gets locked to the edge when he recovers whIle we just have to avoid a bair when up bing in order to make it back AND take stage. Considering he's an aerial fighter the fact that his offstage is so bad is so weird, but so undeniable.

Pretty muck take everything scary about Jigglypuff and toss it out the window.

+2 for us with and without customs.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Rosalina VS. Kirby ​

Pros:
*We can Kill Luma easily
*Neutral air can be really useful for hitting both the luma and Rosalina.
*Up tilt is very useful, due to combos being required for this matchup pretty much, and we can't throw her either. Plus it can harm both Luma and Rosalina easily.
*D-air spike is useful aganist rosalina, sonce if she'a close enough to the stage, but falling, she has little chance of recovering due to its diaganal direction

Cons:
*Rosalina's Star Bits is a big pain for approaching. If she has her luma with her, you can only approach with low-startup moves.
*Up air can be very deadly, since Kirby should be in the air most of the time.
*Our air speed makes us prone to moves such as forward air, Up smash, and side-b
*Rosalina's luma can attack when she's grabbed, so we can't throw her. DANG IT LUMA
Inhale (Kirby side):
While I havn't gotten a chance to inhale a Rosalina yet, I know it's useful, since if Kirby uses it far away, but close, enough, it can really help hill the luma.

Stage Picks:
Honestly, I don't know. Try a low-ceiling stage (for Rosalina), since up air really KOs hard. Otherwise anything works.


Additional Notes:
*Customs matchup is the same since we both have one customs that helps a lot.
*The idea of Rosaluma (Rosalina and a luma as the same character) wasn't first introduced in SSB4, it was first introduced in Mario Kart Wii (Although the Luma was removed in Mario kart 7 and Mario Kart 8.... and THAT is one of the 10 or 15 reasons why we need Project Wii)

Matchup Ratio:45:55 in Rosalina's favor

Oh, I should mention, it's psoted from akirby's point of view (excpet for stages)

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

That's pretty generous. What does Kirby have that's even remotely dangerous to us? I've lost to Kirby before as Rosalina, sure, but when you consider the facts we destroy Kirby.
Our neutral is better, our edgeguards are better, our damage output is better, our killing power is way, way better.

Kirby gets locked to the edge when he recovers whIle we just have to avoid a bair when up bing in order to make it back AND take stage. Considering he's an aerial fighter the fact that his offstage is so bad is so weird, but so undeniable.

Pretty muck take everything scary about Jigglypuff and toss it out the window.

+2 for us with and without customs.

nawt at all. We have good and fast moves to space out andd chip at luma, and a jab that does a lot of damage if we get luma alone. We also have d-air, which is already a great edge-guarding move, that demolishes her no-hitbox recovery, and same with stone. Also, we can get out of her stupidly good jab.. I think Rosa wins this MU without customs no doubt.

WITH customs though, I think it is even because we get a really good counter-move to rosalina. Upper cutter. It demolishes her recovery, we get a really good kill setup, we get a good spacing move that hits luma no matter what (and does good damage), a less gimpable recovery, and a good way to actually get percent on rosa. All this combined fixes some of the faults on why I think the MU is bad.

I certainly think Rosa vs Kirby is a hard MU, but played correctly it isn't anything worse than 40:60 in Rosa's favour.

 

[Underhill]

I main both of them so prepare to read the long post that I'll give out.

: Kirby is small so he can be tough to hit because of his crouch and her height. His attacks like f-airs, forward-smash, and b-air(maybe) can knock Luma away and off stage. Jabs can also help as well because of the finisher's knockback and can be set up from his d-air. He can escape from Luma's jab combo since he's light. His damage output is enough as well to kill Luma. Rosalina is combo meat for him since she's tall. His kills are better slighty because they're safer and has oos options to cover it as well. Stone can help him give damage to Luma even if Rosalina air dodge and get out of jiggles; However if it gets read and you reach to him on time, then free punish for you on his endlag. Kirby can gimp Rosalina with ease since she has no hitbox out of her Launch star. D-air, b-air, and f-air are your best choices for edgeguarding along with stone for a surprise kill. If he gets a copy ability, then he use his luma for a combo out of d-air set-up and zoning as well.

:Her range, edgeguarding game, and jiggling game can be a huge issue for Kirby. Kirby can have trouble getting in on her because of her tiles and luma. Up-smash and up-tile are anti-air moves and useful against Kirby aerials. Have Kirby on top of you and harass him in the air because of her deadly up-airs. Her up-airs can jiggle him hard and get her early kills since he's light, slow in the air, and has nothing to get out of it, but stone; However, its won't be fast if Rosalina use her up-air first because of the stone's start-up. Because of Kirby's low air speed, he has to save up his jumps and try to get to the ledge safely since his cutter can't snap to the ledge quickly; Otherwise, Rosalina can angle her forward smash for a kill or down-smash ledge punish him. Also, down-air can be a threat for him as well either for a spike or stage spike. Jab 3 to start jiggle and if you read the air dodge, then its more for you with combos and maybe frame traps.

Stages: For Delfino Plaza and Helberb, good for Rosalina more because while Kirby can his up-throw to get early vertical kills(with rage as well) since she's light, Rosalina can use platforms to jiggle and pressure, and get early vertical kills as well. Battlefield, same as Delfino Plaza and Helberb, but with less space than FD and more blastzones. Lylat Cruise will help Kirby out since its Rosalina's worst stage and it moves so if she misses the ledge, then its over for her.

Customs: Shooting star bit will help since its a projectile and can give Kirby more trouble approaching, forcing errors, and camp as well. Guardian Luma, for spacing and protect Rosalina from incoming attacks. Upper cutter, he'll use since he can snap the ledge with it, use it for combos, and as a oos option. Meteor stone as a option to spike Rosalina out of her Launch star. Jumping Inhale for a extra recovery option(but risky if he doesn't touch the ground) and surprise attack. Hammer, doesn't matter since its useless.

MU: +1 for both in default and customs.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Kirby is being analyzed again for this week. If you have anything to contribute for the match-up, especially in regards to the newest software update, this is the place to do it.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Well, I was pretty bad in September tbh. Kirby/Rosa is -2 in Rosa's favour for sure. She's the character that takes advantage of all of our weaknesses.

 

[SapphSabre777]

This is our worst "top tier MU", imo and in all honesty, for a lot of reasons. I personally don't like ratios, but simply explaining this match-up from my perspective should be enough to show how bad of an MU it is for a puffball. It's winnable for Kirby, but he has to play MUCH harder than the Rosa player.

Kirby is a bait-and-punish character, primarily, meaning that he gets most of his stuff based upon making bad moves or pressing bad buttons. Rosalina, with Luma in play, has no bad buttons on the ground or in the air. Sure, Luma can get hit by a punish, but it just gives Rosalina a free hit to clock Kirby with, and the damage does stack up fast. So long as Luma is out, Luma can be a range extender and a free bean-bag to take a blow for Rosa, allowing her to perform a huge punish back, and since Luma's well-being is priority #1 for Rosalina, this is an easy thing for her to exploit. Then there is Star Bits, which is basically a complete shutdown on Kirby.

Advantage-wise, Rosalina simply usurps Kirby. While Kirby has grown stronger, Rosalina and Luma are both already loaded with tools to KO Kirby. Luma's D-Air KOs Kirby at even the 20%+ range, and since her aerial mobility and floatiness allow her to stay in edgeguard play, it is hard to near impossible for Kirby to safely get back on stage. Kirby cannot ever be above Rosalina because her and Luma's U-Air are just as deadly. Kirby basically has to stay grounded, all while Rosalina floats around and does whatever since even a successful punish for Kirby can go right into a potentially stock-ending punish for Rosalina and Luma, since her Smashes are surprisingly very good for KOing, especially with Luma in play.

Disadvantage is Rosalina by miles: Launch Star is fantastic against Kirby thanks to how fast she gets launched (no pun intended), and Kirby's just too slow in the air to do anything to save himself. Pretty simple. Rosalina just does not want to go too low, since D-Air can get her and force a stock, and going too high or starting launch too high can mean a Smash. That's not as bad as Kirby's disadvantage, as stated with D-Air or U-Air demolishing his recovery a good chunk of the time.

Kirby does have some things to look out for, even though things are stacked. Rosa does not want to give Kirby Luma Shot, since it allows Kirby to get rid of Luma very quickly; it goes through Rosalina's shield and can whack Luma and gives Kirby a decent ranged option (though it cannot be wantonly used since Rosalina's speed is good enough to weave and punish Kirby). Kirby's tilts can put Luma in a hitstun lock and whittle away at its HP, but that can lead to a free hit on Kirby. There's also Kirby's U-Throw, which thanks to the 1.1.4 patch, can KO Rosalina very early off of a throw.

Kirby's gameplan is to find a way to separate Luma from Rosalina as SAFELY (not as fast), because then and there Kirby can get good punish options; however, the issue becomes time. Rosalina can easily camp out Kirby and force him to approach, and if she has the % lead, Kirby has to take gambits and hope they pay off if she is in the lead, and then pray he does not get KOed for inappropriate or incorrect actions/punishes. Smart play and doing the above is the only solace for Kirby; otherwise, this is in Rosa's favor by a significant margin.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

SapphSabre777 : When you say the match-up is in Rosalina's favor by a significant margin, how much would the match-up favor her? Small, moderate, or large?

 

[SapphSabre777]

SapphSabre777 : When you say the match-up is in Rosalina's favor by a significant margin, how much would the match-up favor her? Small, moderate, or large?

Moderate would be the most accurate. It most certainly isn't small, but it isn't large like Luigi.

 

[ToastPerson]

One thing I'm surprised that hasn't been taken into account is Kirby's Luma when he inhales Rosalina, Kirby's Luma is essentially invincible since it doesn't have a hurtbkx nor HP, so it goes through Rosalina's luma easy (if both Kirby and Rosa charge Luma shot, Kirby's will beat it out), another thing is that Gravitational Pull does NOTHING against Luma, so if Kirby gets Luma Shot, he can spam the move until Luma is gone then screw with Rosa and kill her early. IMO If Inhale is taken into account, I'd say the matchup is 50:50 or slightly in Rosa's favor, 65:35 if Inhale is not taken into consideration

 

[Royug]

One thing I'm surprised that hasn't been taken into account is Kirby's Luma when he inhales Rosalina, Kirby's Luma is essentially invincible since it doesn't have a hurtbkx nor HP, so it goes through Rosalina's luma easy (if both Kirby and Rosa charge Luma shot, Kirby's will beat it out), another thing is that Gravitational Pull does NOTHING against Luma, so if Kirby gets Luma Shot, he can spam the move until Luma is gone then screw with Rosa and kill her early. IMO If Inhale is taken into account, I'd say the matchup is 50:50 or slightly in Rosa's favor, 65:35 if Inhale is not taken into consideration

Kirby really can't spam Luma shot. I don't know exactly how it works, the move doesn't have a lot of endlag (a few frames), but you really have to wait a loooong time after the move before doing it again, like almost 3 seconds. Try it yourself, you'll see.

Also, yes it's true that Kirby's Luma beats Rosa's Luma (except when it's fully charged, then Rosa's Luma is invincible). But it's kind of a slow projectile when you don't charge it, and really easy to dodge when you see your opponent charge it. Luma as a projectile is almost useless for good Rosa players, you almost never use it, so I believe it's pretty much the same for Kirby.

 

[SapphSabre777]

One thing I'm surprised that hasn't been taken into account is Kirby's Luma when he inhales Rosalina, Kirby's Luma is essentially invincible since it doesn't have a hurtbkx nor HP, so it goes through Rosalina's luma easy (if both Kirby and Rosa charge Luma shot, Kirby's will beat it out), another thing is that Gravitational Pull does NOTHING against Luma, so if Kirby gets Luma Shot, he can spam the move until Luma is gone then screw with Rosa and kill her early. IMO If Inhale is taken into account, I'd say the matchup is 50:50 or slightly in Rosa's favor, 65:35 if Inhale is not taken into consideration

I wish this was the case, but this is alone does not make it a 50-50. You can shoot Luma Shot as much as you want, in theory, but you leave yourself wide open when you commit to this move and overuse it. Rosalina is deceptively fast on the ground and has a decent jump height, so if she shields LS or if she's close enough and dodges, that's a free grab or worse, a free U-Smash. She's huge in terms of her hurtbox, but her movement prevents us from outright spamming it, if not it's inherent slowness.

Kirby can use it better than Rosa, granted, but it is not a be-all, end-all option that completely supersedes our disadvantages.

Edit: Greninja'd.