Meta Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Zero Suit Samus

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Zero Suit Samus

Welcome to the Rosalina vs. Zero Suit Samus match-up analysis thread. This thread will be used to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Zero Suit Samus. For all the rules on the round 2 match-up discussions, please refer to the directory thread.

Last Updated: 3/13/2016

Special Moves Allowed| |
Default only | | -1.5 - -1
Default + Custom | | -0.5 - ±0

Spoiler: Score Inputs

Default only
AlMoStLeGeNdArY: -2
pichuthedk: -1
RosalinA: -1 - ±0
shockwave98: -2

Default + Custom
AlMoStLeGeNdArY: -2
pichuthedk: +1 - +2

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

-2 Rosalina customs on or off. ZSS has everything rosalina hates high mobility and fast moves up close. She also kills much much much earlier than you thanks to doen b and up b. Luma doesn't combo break her combo game. You can't really cp her either she performs extremely well on our best cp stages. Bair is also a great kill option for her.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY : Is this a "default only" situation? Please remember to mention which category your score is for.

 

[pichuthedk]

This MU changes significantly based on customs or not , skill levels from low -> top and the overall play style of the players.

Default 50-50
Customs 45-55 for Rosa or 40/35-60/65 for Rosa

So from a zss main PoV I will agree that Rosa has the edge depending on stage in all skills levels if customs are on not because of the warp star , More along the lines of the quite literally eff you single star side b shot. Even on stages like bf or something where we're not confined to the ground I literally want to rip my hair out sometimes when I get hit every other second by a single star. I feel extremely comfortable in this mu(normals) even to the point of being fine with fd the stage I hate most. To me this mu isn't patience it's knowing how to and when quickly finish luma , using luma to refresh moves and a test of your ability to burst rosalina and unload as much % on her as possible in the short window after a luma death.

Those johns aside in terms of normal mechanics I disagree that Rosa beats zss hands down like alot of people say GRANTED I HAVE YET TO FACE A ROSA OF DEBUZZ'S CALIBER.
Knowing myself personally I honestly have to say that I am more than likely near the top of mid level bordering into high level in a competetive sense. ZSS has alot more anti luma tools at her disposal compared to a majority of the cast and some of them are exceptionally potent for the luma MU.

Some of those include the use of zair (if you hit Luma while she attacks it will halt that action and proceed to hit Rosa if she's not shielding (gotten away with zair approaches or retreats simply because luma has to wait 1 frame after Rosas input).

Another tool is side b which while looks like a terrible move it literally chains into itself on Luma due to her knockback resistance , Also hits when Rosa is shielding (I am totally fine with a grab, upsmash or dash attack punish if it means making the Mu easier for the duration of the respawn timer).

Last is the stuns via laser and down smash, now laser can be used to stun luma during any luma shot except for a fully charged one I tend to go for full shots but uncharged ones work just as well. In regards to the downsmash this is where luma's taking low knockback trait which is usual a strength works against it, if you downsmash luma at the edge of the hitbox she will take the lighter knockback from it. This literally causes luma to just get stunned and not move a muscle which you can infinite her until Rosa interferes which can also be used to refresh your moveset.

Edge guarding rosa is easier then most people make it seem because of Zss's dair which can just deny you from recovering whenever the zss has complete control of the timing required ,and if she doesnt there is the edge trump set up to just do it if she regrabs while if she doesn't flip jump kicks or dash -> boost kick or grab combos are free.
if all else fails just run of jump and bair stage spike -> pray she doesn't tech and move on with life.

People get impatient with the fact they take % from luma and Rosa is "camping/being defensive" until your at kill %. I believe this is a misconception she's not camping you Rosa is a puppet character doing what puppet characters do. I always treat her like a boss encounter generally following these 2 rules.

1. If Luma is up do not bother with Rosa because you can not always adjust to the random eff you power hits from luma. When luma's dead dps Rosa until respawn and if you have the presence of mind snipe luma upon respawn which things like side b dash attack and others will deal with her-> rinse and repeat.

2. When ever you grab Rosa and throw her (do it right away btw) always shield immediately because luma is more than likely going to knock you on your ass for your transgressions against the master.

Things to consider in terms of stages which you guys probably already abuse is, the fact that zss is good at platforms but ok most stages with platforms especially zss's best ones like bf. Rosa literally murders you for ever landing on a platform. I'd recommend stages like bf and LyLat even castle siege for the small space while giving you extended luma Hitboxes on the statue phase.it kind of sucks for a ban but getting rid of omega might be a good idea because it gives zss the option to tether cancel and wall jump Shinanegans to avoid your dair.

sorry for the novel work from 3am and anything else I say is a huge John.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ pichuthedk : Just as a note, we're not using the ratio system anymore. You can refer to the directory thread to see the scoring system that we're using now.

 

[pichuthedk]

I'm behind on the times, I am probably still busy pondering why to this day I still can't comprehend how walking up and grabbing is actually a thing, there are times I feel like I messed up maining zss from day one since brawl. It was always unfathomable since I would lose a stock if I missed that Lol.

I'll take a look at that possibly when I get home thanks for the heads up, hope my useless novel gave a tinge of insight.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This MU changes significantly based on customs or not , skill levels from low -> top and the overall play style of the players.

Default 50-50
Customs 45-55 for Rosa or 40/35-60/65 for Rosa

So from a zss main PoV I will agree that Rosa has the edge depending on stage in all skills levels if customs are on not because of the warp star , More along the lines of the quite literally eff you single star side b shot. Even on stages like bf or something where we're not confined to the ground I literally want to rip my hair out sometimes when I get hit every other second by a single star. I feel extremely comfortable in this mu(normals) even to the point of being fine with fd the stage I hate most. To me this mu isn't patience it's knowing how to and when quickly finish luma , using luma to refresh moves and a test of your ability to burst rosalina and unload as much % on her as possible in the short window after a luma death.

Those johns aside in terms of normal mechanics I disagree that Rosa beats zss hands down like alot of people say GRANTED I HAVE YET TO FACE A ROSA OF DEBUZZ'S CALIBER.
Knowing myself personally I honestly have to say that I am more than likely near the top of mid level bordering into high level in a competetive sense. ZSS has alot more anti luma tools at her disposal compared to a majority of the cast and some of them are exceptionally potent for the luma MU.

Some of those include the use of zair (if you hit Luma while she attacks it will halt that action and proceed to hit Rosa if she's not shielding (gotten away with zair approaches or retreats simply because luma has to wait 1 frame after Rosas input).

Another tool is side b which while looks like a terrible move it literally chains into itself on Luma due to her knockback resistance , Also hits when Rosa is shielding (I am totally fine with a grab, upsmash or dash attack punish if it means making the Mu easier for the duration of the respawn timer).

Last is the stuns via laser and down smash, now laser can be used to stun luma during any luma shot except for a fully charged one I tend to go for full shots but uncharged ones work just as well. In regards to the downsmash this is where luma's taking low knockback trait which is usual a strength works against it, if you downsmash luma at the edge of the hitbox she will take the lighter knockback from it. This literally causes luma to just get stunned and not move a muscle which you can infinite her until Rosa interferes which can also be used to refresh your moveset.

Edge guarding rosa is easier then most people make it seem because of Zss's dair which can just deny you from recovering whenever the zss has complete control of the timing required ,and if she doesnt there is the edge trump set up to just do it if she regrabs while if she doesn't flip jump kicks or dash -> boost kick or grab combos are free.
if all else fails just run of jump and bair stage spike -> pray she doesn't tech and move on with life.

People get impatient with the fact they take % from luma and Rosa is "camping/being defensive" until your at kill %. I believe this is a misconception she's not camping you Rosa is a puppet character doing what puppet characters do. I always treat her like a boss encounter generally following these 2 rules.

1. If Luma is up do not bother with Rosa because you can not always adjust to the random eff you power hits from luma. When luma's dead dps Rosa until respawn and if you have the presence of mind snipe luma upon respawn which things like side b dash attack and others will deal with her-> rinse and repeat.

2. When ever you grab Rosa and throw her (do it right away btw) always shield immediately because luma is more than likely going to knock you on your *** for your transgressions against the master.

Things to consider in terms of stages which you guys probably already abuse is, the fact that zss is good at platforms but ok most stages with platforms especially zss's best ones like bf. Rosa literally murders you for ever landing on a platform. I'd recommend stages like bf and LyLat even castle siege for the small space while giving you extended luma Hitboxes on the statue phase.it kind of sucks for a ban but getting rid of omega might be a good idea because it gives zss the option to tether cancel and wall jump Shinanegans to avoid your dair.

sorry for the novel work from 3am and anything else I say is a huge John.

I didn't say Rosa has the edge in the MU it's actually a bad MU for Rosalina IMO.

 

[pichuthedk]

I didn't say Rosa has the edge in the MU it's actually a bad MU for Rosalina IMO.

Depends how you play Rosa if your really aggressive but manage to be slightly passive aggressive when Luma dies you can possibly bully Zss alot. If you just camp and keep your lead zss has to be cautious or she might screw up and take far to much % at the cost of luma or due to frustrations.

 

[shockwave98]

Zss in my opinion is Rosalina's worst matchup. Rosalina's biggest weakness is how vulnerable she is without luma. Zss can easily capitalize on this. Her bair makes it hard for Rosa to approach and kills very early. Her aerials have little lag making it hard to punish. Luma can't hit her after a throw. In fact most of Luma's tricks don't work on her. She's too fast and her recovery is great. Her up B kills extremely early making any little mistake death for Rosa. Overall I think this matchup is -2(default only)

 

[oxHUNTERxo]

Zss in my opinion is Rosalina's worst matchup. Rosalina's biggest weakness is how vulnerable she is without luma. Zss can easily capitalize on this. Her bair makes it hard for Rosa to approach and kills very early. Her aerials have little lag making it hard to punish. Luma can't hit her after a throw. In fact most of Luma's tricks don't work on her. She's too fast and her recovery is great. Her up B kills extremely early making any little mistake death for Rosa. Overall I think this matchup is -2(default only)

Awesome analysis on the MU

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

Depends how you play Rosa if your really aggressive but manage to be slightly passive aggressive when Luma dies you can possibly bully Zss alot. If you just camp and keep your lead zss has to be cautious or she might screw up and take far to much % at the cost of luma or due to frustrations.

This has really turned into a really frustrating and now hopeless MU as Rosalina, so as a ZSS main I would like to ask you what it is you hate when playing vs Rosalina and Luma. I've spent the past 3 months looking at this MU at the top level and I've seen the same results whether its dabuz vs nairo, choco vs kirihara or any other region. There doesn't seem much Rosalina can do to punish as nearly all of ZSS's aerials AC, Luma dies fast and doesn't aid in breaking combos, Rosalina can not juggle ZSS because down b and edge guarding her is nearly pointless. While analyzing top level matches of ZSS and Rosalina and Luma, I noticed that ZSS get significantly more off of one mistake in comparison to Rosalina, I'm fairly certain that down throw to up air as ZSS is guaranteed at around 80~+ % on Rosalina due to her size and floaty-ness. So if you can please do provide insight on what you think Rosalina can do in this MU to make it somewhat tolerable.

 

[pichuthedk]

This has really turned into a really frustrating and now hopeless MU as Rosalina, so as a ZSS main I would like to ask you what it is you hate when playing vs Rosalina and Luma. I've spent the past 3 months looking at this MU at the top level and I've seen the same results whether its dabuz vs nairo, choco vs kirihara or any other region. There doesn't seem much Rosalina can do to punish as nearly all of ZSS's aerials AC, Luma dies fast and doesn't aid in breaking combos, Rosalina can not juggle ZSS because down b and edge guarding her is nearly pointless. While analyzing top level matches of ZSS and Rosalina and Luma, I noticed that ZSS get significantly more off of one mistake in comparison to Rosalina, I'm fairly certain that down throw to up air as ZSS is guaranteed at around 80~+ % on Rosalina due to her size and floaty-ness. So if you can please do provide insight on what you think Rosalina can do in this MU to make it somewhat tolerable.

In all honesty bro I seriously just hate the frequent if left unchecked Luma which is why I basically tested all sorts of methods to get rid of him.

There's the trival stuff that rosa can do even without luma if she gets me off stage is force me to recover high so Rosa doesn't dair me, zss basically automatically dies from even footstool just below the ledge on stages without wall jumps or if she doesn't have a jump. I think in terms of making the mu more manageable for you, things like the stage you take her too is important. At the top of my head I feel like Castle siege is good for you guys because you might be able to just control the really small space of the first phase with tight knit defensive play around the center , trying to hold on to the second phase where there is no bottom for luma to fall off and then you can be aggressive with things like hitbox extension via the statues, At top level play zss players are more than likely to not be as susceptible to bullying in the neutral ( my biggest pet peeve I always feel like I am on the edge with no stage control)

I am not sure how rosa's solo grab game can be but stalling the match with grabs to get luma back takes priority (while also having the awareness to be cautious of zss killing him right away I tend to aim for him before he respawns at times)

I typically find myself struggling when I am unable to get to luma in matches .since life is so much easier with him gone throwing off my tempo with grabs , tilts or even forcing me in bad spots where i can't roll from things I normally should be because of your downsmash :basic example ledge rolls with luma at the ledge.

-I hate that i can't pick my favorite stages like BF because of your up tilt/up smashes
-Small places where I can't space/reset and decide how I want to dispatch your luma's
-stages with straight edges all the way down, while providing me the option to wall jump downb/tether I prefer having the GTFO option which would be swinging under TnC, Smash vile ect.
-Stages that make laser shots require more precision I.E Lylat with it's tilts since Zss can find herself on the edge if her offensive capabilities in the neutral are lacking.
-I hate having to shield immediately after throw attempts when I never hit luma that takes alot of concentration because I don't know rosa I just know how to fight her so knowing luma is capable of X doesn't factor in I just assume (is luma up? then I guess getting hit isn't worth it)


Stages I am comfortable with vs rosa would include
FD (long enough for me to reset and then kill luma)
delphino (lots of space and risk vs reward for killing off the top)
Duck hunt (bigger blast zones since zss is lighter then rosa with adequate space + trees for edge cancels)

stages I hate for this mu
-BF (explained already)
-lylat(same platform stuff and zss will accidentally platform cancel from jumping)
halbard ( the trade off for small stage just to kill off the top is not worth it when I get bullied)
TnC + smashvile town has the low ceiling and platforms to throw of my game *personally* when I am worried about being trapped under you , While both Town and Smash vile have the frequent possibility to save luma from tumbling off stage)

I've played vs 2 types of rosa the defensive ones and the ones that are aggressive as **** until luma dies and then they run away and personally The defensive ones that go for punishes and utilize luma coverage are the scary ones.
Honestly I know it sucks vs a zss because ideally you can't ever recover with proper usage of her dair,down B assuming zss is on point with those, It's a damned if you do damned if you don't because of obvious flip jump kicks or dash-> up b when you land onstage.
The aggressive ones like to throw out alot of dash attacks or spaced aerials which is all fine and dandy , However in regards to the aerials I abuse the hell out of zair and sh paralyzer at a relative safe distance since either one can possibly get me either up b or grab. Don't get me wrong though with enough pressure it's somewhat easy to overpower the mid level and under zss's it's about how you chose to disrupt their movements.

I feel like I am writing a novel I have never really been that good at organizing my thoughts sorry about that...

In anycase if you would like we could grind out the mu on Wifi and communicate via chat so I could possible show you some stuff that might give you an edge and clarify any misconceptions about her moves or toolkit.
nnid: 0-suit-ryoko
or
yahshua barrett on facebook.

 

[Jams.]

Congratulations to Dabuz , who recently beat Nairo in WFs at Dismantle and had extremely close grand finals sets, giving Rosalina players a glimmer of hope in this MU.

Onto matchup discussion, Dabuz was able to kill Nairo multiple times out of ZSS's uair->uair->upb combo. I was wondering what the conditions were for this to occur. Do you have to DI out of Boost Kick, then uair ZSS, or is she vulnerable to Luma uair at some point during the attack? It would be cool if the man himself elaborated about this, though I understand if he wants this information under wraps for the time being.

 

[Dabuz]

I use iLUMAnati magic

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Zero Suit Samus is being analyzed again for this week. If you have anything to contribute for the match-up, especially in regards to the newest software update, this is the place to do it.

 

[RosalinA]

Zss in my opinion is Rosalina's worst matchup. Rosalina's biggest weakness is how vulnerable she is without luma. Zss can easily capitalize on this. Her bair makes it hard for Rosa to approach and kills very early. Her aerials have little lag making it hard to punish. Luma can't hit her after a throw. In fact most of Luma's tricks don't work on her. She's too fast and her recovery is great. Her up B kills extremely early making any little mistake death for Rosa. Overall I think this matchup is -2(default only)

If feel like while this is very accurate, Rosalina and Luma have a much harder time against Pikachu than Zero Suit, just because of how easily Pikachu can just take away Luma, and the same goes to Meta Knight. I don't think Rosalina has a -2 against Zero Suit (Dabuz did 3,0 Nairo at Genisis 3) but maybe a -1 or 0 (default only). I believe that Rosalina only has 2 -2 matchups, and those are against Pikachu and Meta Knight, although I don't quite know about Captain Falcon.

 

[pichuthedk]

If feel like while this is very accurate, Rosalina and Luma have a much harder time against Pikachu than Zero Suit, just because of how easily Pikachu can just take away Luma, and the same goes to Meta Knight. I don't think Rosalina has a -2 against Zero Suit (Dabuz did 3,0 Nairo at Genisis 3) but maybe a -1 or 0 (default only). I believe that Rosalina only has 2 -2 matchups, and those are against Pikachu and Meta Knight, although I don't quite know about Captain Falcon.

Pretty much Like I mean the MU feels like it shouldn't be hard half the time but it all depends on play style especially this MU.
I felt like I forgot this MU when I almost lost a loser's set vs someone I am x-0 against atm(granted i threw a game away with my trash bayo).

If a Rosa is super aggro and well versed in spacing traps via luma zss can have a hard time. zss can't really just out aggro rosalina when shes like that because there is always gonna come those times when you don't land your hit on your actual target because luma stalls the move from hitting it's master for a frame or 2, Stalling enough time for shields ,rolls , dodges and heck even jabs.

However If rosa is more defensive in the way where she is trying to hide behind luma zss should do fairly well considering Luma should be taken out to alleviate the extra stress it causes. That's why you see such discrepancies between the Rosa's that keep luma close by only sending it out for ranged edge guards or trap set ups and the ones who literally don't care about luma.

I heard Dabuzz thinks rosa loses the MU but to be fair I don't think it should really be by much unless stage is a factor, AKA stages where rosa can just upsmash and up tilt under platforms like BH which doubles up as a stage with very small space giving luma an easier space occupancy rate.

Fell like the above is accurate in regards to like -1 ish, Stage plays a much larger factor in the Rosa MU IMHO simply because you might have people who kill luma easily, In those cases stages like smash vile , TNC , seige and Delphino are really good (obviously low ceiling transformations are fun for Rosa as well ;P ).

anyways this was posted so long ago Sorry for being late to the party.
I am done boring anyone who read this xD.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

pichuthedk : Am I to understand that you're saying -1 for Rosalina in the default only scene now?

 

[pichuthedk]

pichuthedk : Am I to understand that you're saying -1 for Rosalina in the default only scene now?

Oh yeah Sorry I kinda still feel like she murders zss with custom , Magnetic net seems far to slow and telegraphed for her to not either punish or absorb it. I don't use her customs. If i did I would use the green laser for pot shots , And her shooting star flip kick kinda hinders your recovery well... part of it anyways in exhange for a faster and further horizontal recovery (can't even remember if you can wall jump/footstool with it lol).

-1 Normal Rosa
+1.5 Custom Rosa. ( might even be worse since Zss is now lighter.