Meta Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Little Mac

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Little Mac

Welcome to the Rosalina vs. Little Mac match-up analysis thread. This thread will be used to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Little Mac. For all the rules on the round 2 match-up discussions, please refer to the directory thread.

Last Updated: 7/26/2015

Special Moves Allowed| |
Default only | | ±0
Default + Custom | | +0.5

Spoiler: Score Inputs

Default only
Conti: ±0
mario123007: ±0
MudkipUniverse: +1
shane3x: +1
ShepDog: +1
str owner138: ±0
Zonderion: -1

Default + Custom
Conti: ±0
Zonderion: +1

 

[mario123007]

Okay I had fought with my brother's Little Mac... so here's my analysis.
Default
Little Mac
Pros

• Fast and powerful attacks, many of his attacks have high knockback.
• Fast approaching can just break through Luma with a single punch.
• His instant KO punch can give a surprising attack to Rosalina.
• Counter is good for breaking out of Rosalina's up air.

Cons

• Weak air attacks.
• Bad recovery

Rosalina & Luma
Pros

• Large hitbox.
• Juggle Little Mac easily.
• Can KO Little Mac early by edgeguarding.

Cons

• Attack speed is slower than Little Mac, making it hard to react quickly.
• Very lightweight, can be easily get launched by Little Mac's punches.

Overall I think this MU is pretty even. 0

 

[shinhed-echi]

I can add two things:

>Luma can be used to fill the power meter.

>Rosalina's grab speed+range is a real problem for Mac.

 

[Zonderion]

I struggle with this match up, so this may make me bias.

Default: -1
Custom: +1

A defensive Little Mac is terribly difficult to beat. His frame data is good enough to play based on reactions, rather than anticipations.

Mixing up recovery options, with things like, recover high, recover low, recover mid, sweet spot the ledge and counter can make it difficult to edge guard Little Mac (mostly the counter).

Rosalina's light weight does not pair well with Little Mac's high knockback, especially near the stage edge.

A good defensive Little Mac will make it difficult to get him off the stage, and then mix up his recovery options almost every time to get back on the stage.

Rosalina's best bet, IMO, is to Grab, juggle and punish rolls with Down Smash. The trajectory of hitting with that can almost guarantee a kill near the edge.

Adding customs, we can make Little Mac approach. Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp are the best for this MU. It allows for faster edge guard, w/o the risk.

 

[Planty]

I don't have much matchup experience here, but what I do know is that Luma is dead the whole match. Like literally. You don't have a Luma. At all.

And you can't use your aerials because your aerials are very telegraphed, unlike, say... Sheik. If you jump, you eat an upsmash in the face.

You also die at like... 50% from an F-smash. So really, when you say that you could get early kills from gimps, the same is true for Mac (except he doesn't need gimps.) Also, Mac can just charge d-smash at the ledge when you recover. I actually feel like Mac has more survivability (is that a word?) in this matchup. (Don't hurt me for saying that.)

And then when you just remember that Mac has all his natural advantages like super armor, frame data, ground speed, and raw power.

In terms of juggling him, good luck using Rosalina's upair when Luma is dead. The hitbox is so linear on that thing without Luma.(who will be dead the whole time...)

here's also a guy on the mac boards who thinks this is one of Little Mac's easiest matchups... so there's that...

I'm not gonna give it a rating but I feel like Little mac wins here. Kinda easily actually. His main weakness (he dies early) is kinda not counted here since you die just as early, maybe a bit later. Your grab range sucks so it's hard to throw him off stage. Luma is dead the whole time too. So that means that you're gonna be losing neutral a lot. And then you die at 50%. Yay.

 

[shane3x]

Rosalina has many tools to deal with mac while mac himself has very little to actually rely on besides hoping to capitalise on mistakes and sheer force and speed which unlike say Captain Falcon can't follow up that well.

Mac generally isn't going to approach from the Air and his grab is pathetic so he has very few options to actually approach you with. Forward tilt, Dash attack and Jolt Haymaker are punished easy with shield shield grab or star bits.

If he does get a hit on you and you're in the air he isn't chasing you up there and you can see Up+B coming a mile away. As long as you stick to your fundamentals and aren't making silly mistakes which can be costly indeed Rosa generally comes out on top.

Default: +1 Rosa

 

[Conti]

I have a huge problem with Lil Mac as Rosa personally. We should look into this MU because i feel like it's at least even [and i'd say a disadvantage to a rosa player like myself that doesn't understand the MU].
I don't know when to use luma, alot of his moves have armor or high prio to clank or beat her out, and idk, mainly just neutral game stuff.

 

[Zonderion]

I have a huge problem with Lil Mac as Rosa personally. We should look into this MU because i feel like it's at least even [and i'd say a disadvantage to a rosa player like myself that doesn't understand the MU].
I don't know when to use luma, alot of his moves have armor or high prio to clank or beat her out, and idk, mainly just neutral game stuff.

I'm right there with you. The last two tournaments I've been, I've been knocked out by a little Mac. I won the first game, then they counter picked Little Mac against my Rosalina. I've got a buddy who is going to pick Little Mac up to give me more experience against them.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I have a huge problem with Lil Mac as Rosa personally. We should look into this MU because i feel like it's at least even [and i'd say a disadvantage to a rosa player like myself that doesn't understand the MU].
I don't know when to use luma, alot of his moves have armor or high prio to clank or beat her out, and idk, mainly just neutral game stuff.

Is this under the "default only" conditions? Customs can end up altering the outcome of the match-up after all.

 

[Conti]

Is this under the "default only" conditions? Customs can end up altering the outcome of the match-up after all.

Customs on or off,
On: its easier cuz of starbit, but tbh, Customs are getting banned in my local meta so i gotta learn the default MU
It's crazy, i HAVE to switch characters to beat LilMac [Diddy/ZSS i beat them very easy, but rosa its a close match of me messing up n falling for dumb stuff and lose somehow]. So any input for LilMac would be fantastic,

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Customs on or off,
On: its easier cuz of starbit, but tbh, Customs are getting banned in my local meta so i gotta learn the default MU
It's crazy, i HAVE to switch characters to beat LilMac [Diddy/ZSS i beat them very easy, but rosa its a close match of me messing up n falling for dumb stuff and lose somehow]. So any input for LilMac would be fantastic,

I think you just need to be patient and control the ground more. As long as you don't sttack into his armored moves your fine (something I tend to do). His speed and jab are pretty difficult for Rosalina to deal with. Ftilt and dtilt are also problematic moves. I wouldn't try to punish well spaced ftilts or dtilt.

 

[kamus_aran]

Can someone give me an advice for Rosalina vs Little Mac MU please?

He's fast, his smash attacks have super-armor, making it hard for me to approach. Rosa grab range isn't that good, i can't shieldgrab after he uses f-smash 'cause it pushes Rosa away and has less cooldown. Mac can kill Luma easily too.

I struggle with this mu, i can rekt Mac with Palutena, but whenever i pick Rosa, it gives me a hard time.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Hmmm... It seems that this MU can be pretty tough for Rosa, but I think i'd bring it to +1 in Rosa's favor.

Rosa's throws are very good against Little Mac. Uthrow>Jab can get the Mac player offstage at low percentages. Fthrow and Bthrow are low lag and can usually set Mac offstage from anywhere on the stage.
BUT
From Mac's perspective... Luma doesn't just work like a barrier anymore & can get walled out by Super Armor. This means that you'll have to be in a position where if you're Luma is getting attacked, you can still get the grab, and do something like Bthrow > RAR Bair or something.

I find that Solo Rosalina doesn't suffer TOO much from Mac, and can get decent strings & and set up edgeguards.

Don't be afraid to lose your Luma. Choosing not to run away could maybe grant you a punish if the Mac player decides to go for Luma, as Rosalina by herself doesn't fare too bad in this matchup.

+1 for Rosa.
Even? some people think that, it isn't too farfetched.

 

[Kaishin]

Any advice for gimping Mac's recovery? With the shieldstun change, I can no longer sit by the edge, shield his up b, and then dsmash. In addition his side b seems to beat all of my options if I'm up close and if I'm farther away Little Mac has other things he can do.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Little Mac is being analyzed again for this week. If you have anything to contribute for the match-up, especially in regards to the newest software update, this is the place to do it.

 

[vegeta18]

i really struggle closing out the match while little mac is off stage. I try to edge guard him aggressively,if he recovers low and uses his up B so that the hitbox goes through the stage slightly i find it extremely hard to punish or do anything about. I heard dabuz say something about dtilt if timed perfectly basically beats out all of little macs recoveries.

 

[Zonderion]

i really struggle closing out the match while little mac is off stage. I try to edge guard him aggressively,if he recovers low and uses his up B so that the hitbox goes through the stage slightly i find it extremely hard to punish or do anything about. I heard dabuz say something about dtilt if timed perfectly basically beats out all of little macs recoveries.

I struggle too with edge guarding. Is down tilt the preferred way to deal with him? A lot of Mac players will get the spacing just perfect so that after their up B, they are just barely within the auto ledge snap.

 

[vegeta18]

I struggle too with edge guarding. Is down tilt the preferred way to deal with him? A lot of Mac players will get the spacing just perfect so that after their up B, they are just barely within the auto ledge snap.

im not entirely sure however i did find this video of dabuz claiming this to be a 100-0 mu lol, also showing off how he plays the mu a bit.

http://www.twitch.tv/dabuz18/v/20993706

 

[str owner138]

A couple a things that came across playing against a REALLY good Little Mac (no customs):


- Little Mac can REALLY easily catch Rosa's landing. Him mixing up either shielding, dash attack, forward B and just powering through with superarmor seems to beat ANY option you pick to land. Platforms even this out a lot, just beware of Usmash.
- Neutral is really damn hard. If a Mac shields a nair or other close moves, there's basically nothing you can do and the Mac can punish quite easily.
- Mac's down smash is a crazy edgeguarding tool that's not hard to hit either. Mixing up recovering high and aiming for platforms is REALLY important.
- He kills Luma in 2 hits.
- Edgeguarding can be really hard unless you predict a counter and bait it out. Dtilt tends to cover his recovery pretty good though.
- Killing Mac can be insanely hard: if the Mac plays defensively, you basically can't hit him and if he also has KO punch, forget about doing smashes. Mac can punish every whiffed smash really well, even without KO punch.
- Being close to Mac is both bad and good. You are sure to hit through superarmor because Rosa and Luma will both connect, but Mac shines in close up combat because of sheer framedata (and of course RosaLuma don't have good CQC besides Luma jab).
- Boost grabbing makes it easier to grab a Mac running away.

I'd say this is heavily in favour of Little Mac at low and mid level; -1 or -2 for Rosa

but then has a sharp raise toward RosaLuma at mid-high because of heavy edgeguarding and Little Mac's reliance on few tools, and it gets easier to see through his (excellent) footsies. Well placed spotdodges can mess up Mac quite well too. Platform play makes up a big part of this matchup.
It can go from 0 to +2 this way, evening it out to ±0.



For improving the matchup, try to be baiting really heavily. Fading back or crossing up with Nair just outside Mac's range (or with Lunar Landing) can work in Neutral, alongside safe Bairs. Don't get impatient for not hitting him - sooner or later the Mac will try to read the approach, meaning your bait will have worked: empty hop shield grab, empty hop dtilt/jab, sometimes star bits or Luma shot are great against whiffs. Do note that Mac's "'active" range is very big because of his dash speed. This can be evened out a little by aiming for platforms.

For ground game, a running Little Mac can be hit with dtilt or ftilt, and a higher forward B is not too hard to cover with Usmash (especially with Luma around). Dtilt is quick enough to punish with after you baited out a move, and from up close jab is best - you can mix up multijab for damage with jab 2 to dair or usmash for kills/setting up an edgeguard - beware of counters. Please do note that Mac's ground game is far superior, and Macs are generally great at baiting with footsies or quick moves like dtilt or utilt. His smashes have suprisingly little lag.
It can become hard for Macs when you mix up aerial movement with grounded movement a lot. Extended dashdancing is almost a necessity for quick ground baits, when mixed up well with turnaround star bits and platform play.

If you thought you were a patient Rosalina and Luma main, think again. Every move you do will have more purpose as to baiting than to actually hit - this is ****ing frustrating. Platforms are your friends.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

if mid level implies average skill, then yeah it might be macs favor. wouldn't say HEAVILY though. Some people look at mid-level as average (which isn't that good), and then other people like me think that's what low-level is.

anyways, agreed with a good amount of what you said. I see the MU as in rosalina's favor (at least at my level, which i call "mid"), the neutral is much less a pain in the ass when you aren't on FD.

 

[Mini_Mac]

Honestly, me being the one to disagree with most people here saying Mac is tough to beat as Rosalina, I'm just going to say this matchup is just god-awful piss-poor for Mac. I don't normally see Event Hubs as a reliable tier list source but I have to agree with them that Rosalina is Mac's #1 worst matchup.

Reasons:

1. Depending on which side Mac is on if he misses a dash attack, a smash attack, or a tilt, Rosalina can easily do a jab-to-grab combo or a down smash which is very lethal since it comes out fast and sends Mac at a horizontal angle and can cost a stock at very low percents.
2. Mac's stage control is crippled when Luma is alive. You basically can't safley approach Rosalina until Luma is dead. Even then that means you would have to approach Rosalina half the time and that can be very risky for Mac.
3. Getting effective combos like D-tilts to U-tilts are very difficult because Rosalina is so floaty causing followups to be very unlikely. She can just DI away from Mac to avoid an up-B by Mac which is very crippling because up-B is one of Mac's better kill confirms and in this matchup, it almost cannot happen rendering damage inconsistent to rack up
4. Ledge trapping like doing a D-smash or a side-B onto the ledge is surprisingly VERY hard against Rosalina because her aerial mobility is slow and her recovery is decently big making it difficult to predict when she will finally go for the ledge.

When I play against a Rosalina on FG online, I almost always have to switch to my secondary (Villager) because this matchup is just too much of a pain in the a**. As a Mac player, literally everything has to be frame-perfect and defense has to be prestiege in order to appropriatly fight against Rosa.

 

[Contrast_94]

First I'm going to assume this is a high level match up of Mac vs Rosalina not a For Glory Rosalina

1: See if Mac can Up B, n-air, airdodge or jump out of her jab into grab setup. I know you can armor with neutral B out of her rapid jab.

2:The sad truth is Rosalina wins this match up and Mac does not have a solid tool to beat this
however you can Side B over luma, chase it off stage with dash attacks, roll or perfect pivot into u-tilt to out prioritize or knock Rosalina up where Luma is open.

3: Try d-tilt into perfect pivot u-tilt or D-tilt turn around U-tilt if she is still air dodging then bait it with a pivot up angled F-smash or roll behind her after d-tilt and punish if she DI's away while airdodging.

4: Don't run of stage and do a reverse Side B on high levels of player that is an enormous gamble. Just stick to baiting her get up option. Also the Luma is open to be punished during the ledge mix up. Suprise her with a roll cancel grab or something

My best tip for fighting Rosalina in the neutral is not to stand still as she can trap you if you stay in one spot. This is harder said then done but you still have many good options against her.

You can also neutral B through her jab and some tilts and aerials but this is risky.

Whenever she is cornering you just walk away slowly and come back with something like f-tilt, up angled f-smash pp u-tilt.

Run, walk, jump, roll, trot don't get predictable if the Rosalina player doesn't know the MU you have a good shot at winning.

I heard you mention earlier "For Glory Rosalinas" I play alot of For Glory myself and what i've learned is most people who play For Glory do not play the character optimally and I usually beat most Rosa mains i run into FG myself. I still lose to high level Rosalinas alot because Mac cannot land and his tools to beat her get predictable + she easily out spaces him. It's frustrating

Just play more patient against Rosa and do anything you can to get rid of Luma.

 

[ShepDog]

It seems that the Rosalina's here don't really know the MU (Which albeit is difficult to figure out if your only resource is Smashboards) But this is definitely 60:40 for Rosalina.

Elephant in the room is that Mac gets juggled VERY hard. Iirc Ive 0-deathed my local Little Mac twice simply b/c I got him in the air & read his airdodges/counters.
Mac offstage is also relatively easy to deal with. Setting up a Luma Jab Wall at the ledge is a good strat, along w/ waiting on the ledge & shielding, because you can cover all his ledge getup options.
If anyone has anymore questions, let me know

 

[WolfmanDeerek]

I don't tourney much at all and never had this match up in said setting. My experience is strictly FG, which sucks because of the lack of platforms.

My strategy consists of feints, shields, spot dodges and hard punishes aimed towards getting him off stage. If he is going to try to stay in the center the whole match I tend to have problems.
I have to remind myself to let luma go and use star bits to stun and set him up for a short burst of offense. I don't care if he KOs luma if I can get a good dash grab or dash attack in exchange. I also use up air less and f air more out of low % dash attacks. F air lasts longer and when short hopped it can be followed up at low % with additional dash options. My whole drive is getting him off stage.

Life is much easier when he's under pressure to stay on stage. Even at super low % d air with RosaLuma is lethal off stage. Position so he is right in front of luma when you input it. At 50+ % a short hop d air has enough knock back to help get him off stage.

If you shield a lot you might entice him into dash grabs. Aside from early % up throw to up b this isn't a bad thing. Infact, I like it when mac is grabbing RosaLuma because jab spam can break it up and set up hard punishes. Even without Luma predictable dash grabs are a real nice opening. Sometimes I purposefully let the grabs work so he will keep going for them until his % is high enough to exploit. All of her smashes can catch him. Spot dodge down smash is a great counter if your close to her back being at the ledge. That also goes for dash attacks.

I scoff at the scrubby macs and I cringe when I'm in against a ringer. I'd call it 50/50. The one problem I have is a smart Mac who knows when to retreat and when to swamp me. Usually The ones who do everything the can to stay center stage.