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Meta Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Sheik

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Sheik


Welcome to the Rosalina vs. Sheik match-up analysis thread. This thread will be used to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Sheik. For all the rules on the round 2 match-up discussions, please refer to the directory thread.

Last Updated: 7/19/2015
Special Moves Allowed| | :4sheik:
Default only | :rosalina: | -1
Default + Custom | :rosalina: | -1
Default only
8-Bit: -2 - -1
AlMoStLeGeNdArY: -2
Karinole: ±0
Lange: -1
mario123007: -2
tconan: -1
TSmasher1000: +1
Zonderion: -1

Default + Custom
8-Bit: -2 - -1
AlMoStLeGeNdArY: -2
Karinole: ±0
tconan: ±0
TSmasher1000: -1
Zonderion: ±0
 

mario123007

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Default
:4sheik:Sheik
Pros

  • Fast attacking speed, definitely has a better air game than Rosalina
  • Many KO potential attacks, such as her bouncing fish, even her recovery can KO Rosalina if you aren't paying attention.
  • Many projectiles as well, most are hard to GP for Rosalina.
  • Attracts many Melee player because of her fast speed and attacks.
Cons
  • Her standard attacks don't have large hitbox.
:rosalina:Rosalina and Luma
Pros
  • If utilize Luma well, can juggle around Shiek and wait a great time to punish.
  • Linkable up air that can KO Sheik easily.
Cons
  • Slower attacks compare to Sheik
  • Gets KOed over 80%up because of her light weight.
  • Too floaty, so can easily get juggle by Sheik consistent air game.
This MU isn't that good for Rosalina, I give this MU -2
 
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ParanoidDrone

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No opinion on the matchup at present, but a question. Which parts of Sheik's moveset are punishable? Like, at all? (Bouncing Fish will hit Luma and go away if you spotdodge, so that specific avenue's a no-go.)
 

mario123007

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No opinion on the matchup at present, but a question. Which parts of Sheik's moveset are punishable? Like, at all? (Bouncing Fish will hit Luma and go away if you spotdodge, so that specific avenue's a no-go.)
Her bouncing can not only hit Luma away, if Rosalina has a lot damage, it's possible that she will get KOed too.

And Sheik's recovery, her explosion part is the part that Rosalina has to watch out.
 

BigHairyFart

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As a Sheik main, I've only ever fought one Rosa, though I have played him a few times(customs on). It might just be that he's better than me, but I find it damn near impossible to get in on Rosa. However, should she get in, there are a few things to look out for:
  • Sheik can hit Rosa with the tip of her U-Smash if Rosa is standing, which, btw, is Sheik's earliest(or at least close) kill option.
  • Penetrating Needles(Custom 2); Can go through Luma and still hit Rosa, plus it breaks shields. Cons are about half range of default needles, and can hold half as many(3 over default's 6)
  • Gravity Grenade(Custom 2); Almost every Sheik ever will use this custom, when it hits, you are pulled towards Sheik, and it will almost always lead to an inescapable U-Smash.
  • Skimming Grenade(Custom 3); Sheik will throw out a grenade that bounces along the ground, refreshing a hitbox each time it bounces. At the end is a small explosion that sends straight horizontally, which is a safe, easy gimp if Sheik throws it while still onstage, due to Rosa having no hitbox on Launch Star.
  • Bouncing Fish is safe on everything except whiff or powershield. If you powershield, you can follow her and hit her in the rebound, just watch for the second kick(which we usually do).
Now I realize that these are the Rosa boards, but this is a MU that I personally struggle with a lot, so any input from you guys for me would be appreciated as well.
 
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tconan

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-1 for default, 0 for customs
Sheik pros:
-fair and other moves can take out Luma easily
-Rosa's size makes her combo meat to Sheik
-great edgeguarding
-better, faster aerials
Rosa pros:
-many jab setups work on Sheik
-Luma can stop Sheik's combos at times
-gravitational pull works on needles although hard to
-great juggling
Overall, Rosa is forced to space extremely well while also keeping stage control (to prevent Luma from dying easily). She has the tools, but Sheik's frame data makes it hard to zone Sheik.
Customs:
Sheik gains piercing needles which get past Luma and gravity grenade, while Rosa gains Luma warp and shooting star bit. Sheik's needles get more useful, Rosa gains many more options to play defense now that she has a projectile in shooting star bit, and Luma warp can set up for early kills.
In conclusion: defend Luma and avoid the setups into fair strings as much as possible. Don't let Sheik in.
 

Zonderion

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I've played this match up a few times. Sheik should always be spacing her attacks. The moment she doesn't, it can lead to punishes of around 30% from a simple grab to jab combo at low %s or transition to juggling at higher %s.

Bouncing fish can be challenged with up smash and can win if timed right.

Sheik can pressure more than anyone else, IMO. If they focus on getting rid of Luma, Sheik can get the upper hand. She is great at edge guarding and can interrupt our no hitbox recovery.

I've found that placing Luma at the edge when Sheik is recovering will force them to recover low. This can lead to condition then to recover low and then a well placed spike can end it. However, sheik's with amazing recovery, its almost better to just keep stage control.
Default: -1 for Rosalina.

I have not played against a sheik with customs, but I know that Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit makes fighting Sheik much easier.
Customs: 0


As a Sheik main, I've only ever fought one Rosa, though I have played him a few times(customs on). It might just be that he's better than me, but I find it damn near impossible to get in on Rosa. However, should she get in, there are a few things to look out for:
  • Sheik can hit Rosa with the tip of her U-Smash if Rosa is standing, which, btw, is Sheik's earliest(or at least close) kill option.
  • Penetrating Needles(Custom 2); Can go through Luma and still hit Rosa, plus it breaks shields. Cons are about half range of default needles, and can hold half as many(3 over default's 6)
  • Gravity Grenade(Custom 2); Almost every Sheik ever will use this custom, when it hits, you are pulled towards Sheik, and it will almost always lead to an inescapable U-Smash.
  • Skimming Grenade(Custom 3); Sheik will throw out a grenade that bounces along the ground, refreshing a hitbox each time it bounces. At the end is a small explosion that sends straight horizontally, which is a safe, easy gimp if Sheik throws it while still onstage, due to Rosa having no hitbox on Launch Star.
  • Bouncing Fish is safe on everything except whiff or powershield. If you powershield, you can follow her and hit her in the rebound, just watch for the second kick(which we usually do).
Now I realize that these are the Rosa boards, but this is a MU that I personally struggle with a lot, so any input from you guys for me would be appreciated as well.
My biggest tip is to space your attacks properly. It is difficult for Rosalina to punish well placed fairs and bairs.

Watch how Rosalina recovers. If she tends to recover from underneath the ledge. Bairs work great for stage spiking. If she tends to back away from the ledge, to avoid any off stage combos, her recovery becomes extremely predictable. You should be able to interrupt her recovery.

I would say to always go for the gimp against her with your great recovery. Ledge trump her and immediately roll on stage to a bouncing fish is a great kill combo. She has to recover high to avoid this, because she'll not have any more invincible frames. This makes her predictable again.

Hope that helps.
 

Smasher89

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So, had broke a bad habit giving sheik too much credit from my earlier tournamentsets, so instead of losing to 2 shieks, i beat 2.
Some stuff i think is simple but yet important to think about in the matchup is that every hit rosalina gives to shiek, is basicly 2 or 3 hits that shiek gets on rosalina, so sometimes its ok to get hit by fair, as long as you get the fair punished some times.


Do note that lumas jab is a good combotool in the matchup too, and that it usually combos to the aerial you prefer (i think shiek dies to nair at the ledge around 130-140%, that is mostly general % it kills that ive noticed in most matchups though)
 

Karinole

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0 without customs, 0 with customs

I used to think this MU was atrocious for Rosa and she had no way to beat sheik because of how safe she was, how hard it was to react to needles that would damage luma, how sheik could just fair me across stage, and so on. I was even considering a secondary for her when I realized a few things about the matchup that now make me believe it to be very close to even.

For all the great things sheik has Rosa gets away with a lot of **** against her. Rosa is one of the character that sheik has trouble comboing for a few reasons. Because of Rosalina's weight and floatyness she can escape from some setups with proper air dodging and jumping. And then there is the important piece of rosa's game that sheik struggle with a lot. Luma straight up prevents sheik's throw follow-ups. I learned this while watching dabuz vs Mr. R at Apex where every time he got thrown, instead of trying to mixup DI (which is what I used to do) he would just mash an aerial and luma would beat whatever followup sheik tried to go with. Because of this sheik is limit in how much she can commit to any action because of the threat of luma stopping them.

Another key thing I noticed in matches with sheik is damage and combos. Sheik does relatively low damage for the amount of strings she put together but when all put together is usually lap any follow up the opposing character can bring back. Sheik, however, is a pretty fast faller and Rosa is able to prey on that pretty hard with her throw followups and aerial juggling. Her jab is also pretty problematic for sheik as sheik has a hard time getting through it and she eats a sizable chunk of damage from the multihits.

Rosa also can beat a bouncing fish with her up smash and can reliably stuff Sheik's approaches if reacted to fast enough. With all that being said Sheik is still an absolutely fantastic character with a wide range of tools to use against Rosalina. She has the ability to kill off lumas pretty well and has follow up after follow up to her many strings. And another key piece of sheiks game against Rosalina is just how deep she can go off stage to get Rosalina out of her up-b as many characters can't get to her because of how far launch star goes.

Overall a very close matchup with tons of decision making from both sides and really comes down to a lot of spacing and who can utilize their tools better.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Your logic is infallible. I don't see how anyone can contest with your reasonings. Great discussions...Lol.
Things have been said as to why this is a bad mu. Things have also been said that's simply false. Here's something for the mu

Neutral is in favor of sheik
kill power is in favor of sheik
ability to edgeguard is in favor of sheik
mobility is in favor of sheik


Yet the MU is even....sorry mangz I'm not buying it.
 

Zonderion

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Things have been said as to why this is a bad mu. Things have also been said that's simply false. Here's something for the mu

Neutral is in favor of sheik
kill power is in favor of sheik
ability to edgeguard is in favor of sheik
mobility is in favor of sheik


Yet the MU is even....sorry mangz I'm not buying it.
I agree that neutral and mobility are in sheik's favor. Edge guarding is slightly in sheik's favor, but we can still edge guard sheik if we utilize Luma properly.

I disagree about the killing power. Rosalina can live a long time because of the lack of power from sheik. We have to be cautious of bair stage spikes, and up smash. Sometimes bouncing fish and sometimes vanish. But that's it.

Rosalina wins the kill power game.

Playing patiently is really the key to this MU. Look for opportunities to punish.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I agree that neutral and mobility are in sheik's favor. Edge guarding is slightly in sheik's favor, but we can still edge guard sheik if we utilize Luma properly.

I disagree about the killing power. Rosalina can live a long time because of the lack of power from sheik. We have to be cautious of bair stage spikes, and up smash. Sometimes bouncing fish and sometimes vanish. But that's it.

Rosalina wins the kill power game.

Playing patiently is really the key to this MU. Look for opportunities to punish.
Tipper usmash and Vanish are pretty big deals. They will be kill under 100. Vanish can be used as air dodge bait and as an edgeguard. Then there's uair which also kills us and fair does a pretty good job at killing us.

Well spaced fairs can't be punished. Sheik has a lot of options to edgeguard is fair bair nair bouncing fish dtilt vanish. While we have to get that 1 frame ledge grab crap on her. We can't contest her recovery. She recovers pretty freely vs us then there's the matter of her being able to escape our juggle game with bouncing fish which removes out best kill option. But yeah play perfect as Rosalina and hope sheik miss spaces and you get reads on het. Then maybe you can win.
 

Joaco

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This is not about pros and cons, this is how the matchup should be played. Both of my best friends play Rosa and I play against her all the time so I know what I'm talking about.
The most important things for Rosalina in this matchup are maintaining control over the center of the stage and keeping Luma alive. Both of those things are crucial.
For the first thing you have to know your opponent and know yourself. Sheik has only one way to approach Rosa that is f-air. You have to remember this, normally you shouldn't get grabbed, and if you do Luma should always interrupt the followup using an aerial (u-air most of the times). Sheik shouldn't be able at all to follow a f-throw or a f-air with bouncing fish, which is bad for us Sheiks, because bouncing fish is our most damaging combo follower. We need to connect 4 f-airs to do the same damage as f-throw to bouncing fish so remember this. Having said this, you know how Sheik is going to approach.
When people get defensive, we Sheiks like to charge needles because players get offensive when they see us charging needles. Don't fall for that trick, if you are far away from Sheik you can't punish the charge.
Getting offstage is the worst possible scenario for Rosa so you should try to be in the center of the stage, especially at higher percents. If you get Sheik offstage don't be too greedy edgeguarding, you can die if you go offstage to edgeguard her and most of the times it's not worth it. It's better to wait Sheik near the edge and kill her with a smash attack, as Sheik dies pretty early and Rosa doesn't have much trouble killing her.
If Luma dies you are at a great disadvantage and a good Sheik will try to maximize the advantage. You are now susceptible to a lot of damaging combos and kill setups that you should be safe when Luma is alive. I don't know how it is in other matchups but here it's like the matchup is even if Luma is alive but if she's not is like -2. You have to be really careful when this happens, as you can eat 45% damage from a single combo at low percents and at higher percents you can die way more easy than with Luma. If you maintain Luma alive you should live until 170%.
Most Sheiks have a bad habit of being overagressive if they are the first to lose the stock. Watch out for this, if it happens you can do a lot of damage to Sheik punishing stupid things, like anything that's not f-air.

The stages I like to go against Rosalina are Lylat Cruise and Castle Siege. Lylat Cruise is a good stage for Rosa in general (in my opinion) but the stage tilting helps Sheik's edgeguarding a lot, opens up new possibilities for kill setups to Sheik (like d-tilt at the edge to u-air, kills like 120-130% depending on rage) and Sheik can tipper u-smash you if you are on a platform and you can die like in 90%. Castle Siege is great for us in every transformation, the first is small so we can throw Rosa and Luma offstage easier, the second one allows us to kill with f-air strings off the walkoffs and the third is the same as Lylat. You should avoid this stages.
The best stages for Rosa in this matchup are Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Town and City and Dream Land. You can kill pretty early in Halberd because of the low ceiling and Sheik can't take advantage from the shape of the stage. Delfino is great against Sheik, in the transformations I died as early as 0% with an u-air near the top and Sheik can't benefit at all in the transformations (maybe except the one with the parasols). In both of this stages we can't stage spike you and we can't bouncing fish into the stage, so our edgeguarding game becomes worse. Town and City and Dream Land are similar in a way that both have a lower than normal ceiling and if you use the platforms correctly you can kill pretty early with an u-smash or u-air, even without Luma, but the same can be said about Sheik so be careful of high u-airs.
One of my friends like Duck Hunt but I find it really good for Sheik, maybe the best stage against Rosa after Castle Siege and Lylat. The tree and the bush helps our edgeguarding game if you try to recover high and we can cling to the walls if you try to recover low. I don't find good things about the stage for Rosa maybe except for the left tree that can aid you going higher for an u-air.
I find Final Destination, Battlefield and Smashville to be slightly in Sheik's favor, as both characters can benefit from these stages but I think that Sheik does better in those.

As my opinion for the matchup is -1 for Rosalina, like i said early, if Luma is alive the matchup is even but if it's not the matchup is like -2 for Rosa, as Sheik is fast, can capitalize Rosa being alone and her combo potential and kill power gets unleashed.
I hope I'm not forgetting anything, if you have any questions about the matchup ask me and I will try my best to help you guys.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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@ Joaco Joaco : Is this a "default only" type of scenario? Be sure to mention the category that your scores are for; "default only" or "default + custom".
 

Joaco

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Both scenarios are pretty similar as both characters are equally benefitted with customs, so for me the scores are the same for customs on and off
 

TSmasher1000

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+1 Without Customs
-1 With Customs

As a Sheik and a Rosalina player I can assess this from both sides and I think it is harder to get in and outspace Rosaluma with Sheik than it is to land. I used to think this was in Sheik's favor the whole way (and thought that Sheik made a good partner with Rosalina, which would cover all MUs), but after testing it, Rosalina has the proper tools to land and outspace Sheik. Sheik can't combo reliably without getting a combo breaker from Luma. Sheik may try and camp her out with needles, but Rosalina's gravitational pull along with proper spacing can stop that easily. Her attacks also kill earlier than Sheik and her juggling game as well as her u-air is phenomenal. If you can kill Luma then great, but a good Rosaluma player will usually not allow you to get rid of Luma that easily and can stall you out until Luma comes back. With Rosalina players I can say that the biggest trouble I've ever had with a Sheik was landing, but that's it. I can usually land provided I do a good mix up game with luma.

With customs I think Sheik wins because of the needles that pass through luma. It sets up a lot of opportunities to separate the two and spacing is no longer a large deal if you can do so.
 

MezzoMe

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Looks noone said this, so:
Do you know how uncharged needles have ~30 frames of endlag and fully charged slighty less?
If you take put the travel time the opponent has 22-19 frames to punish needles, that of course can't be done with fully spaced needles, but piercing needles have half the range of default ones while having just as much lag, while they need slighty more than a full charge to shatter a full shield.
That's the problem with the move, and given Sheik's low damage per hit, reducing the shield enough for it to be in danger is a quite slow process, and that is not even taking into account powetshielding and maintaining shield pressure long enough. I wouldn't count too much on piercing needles, but I don't main Sheik.
 
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alexthepony

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What are all of sheiks moves that separate luma at when she is at full health? AND when luma is at one half health?
It's disappointing people here arn't really talking about this when this is the most important thing we should talk about in these mu threads.
 

BigHairyFart

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off the top of my head I think only dash attack knocks luma away at full health. I'm sure there's more, but not ones that would actually be used by a sheik. I know that her fair starts knocking luma back pretty quickly though.
 

alexthepony

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off the top of my head I think only dash attack knocks luma away at full health. I'm sure there's more, but not ones that would actually be used by a sheik. I know that her fair starts knocking luma back pretty quickly though.
her fair knocks luma at 12 percent, but about when does her bf,bair,ftilt,dilt,utilt, and smash attacks knock luma away(estimates are fine)?
also does any of her throws ever separate luma?
 

Lange

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60-40 Sheik or by the system here which I gotta admit I'm not a fan of because it's much less precise -1.5 maybe? Rosa does better against Sheik than much of the cast, due to defensive techniques and being able to wall sheik out some. Also Rosa if not caught by vanish or an upair, or read offstage can at times survive decently vs Sheik and has the advantage with KO power.

That said though, Rosa is large and floaty and a bigger hitbox target for Sheiks insanely fast f air combos, Rosa cannot stay in place or be predictable too much or she will get faired across the stage to oblivion. Also in the air her vanish can be harder to avoid as Rosa, takes good DI and airdodge timing, along with a stray up air from Sheik or the 50/50 down throw always jump away. Sheik also can use B fish often as a punish, and knocks luma away on contact. Rosa can jab cancel wall in neutral as a mixup to make Sheik stop and think, but Rosa player better cancel it fast if Sheik jumps in or the fair will break it up. Also Dtilt, ftilt, hip check/uturn ftilt are Rosas friends, it is important for Rosa to have good movements and avoid punishable moves. If sheik misplaces a jump or a OoS punish you can get good damage off a infinite jab.

Luma helps with the needles some, and you can grav pull some of them at a distance. I like to foxtrot around doing some gravpulls along with Sheik to mind game Sheik, but obviously use it smartly due to ending lag.

Overall Sheiks frames, ease of getting in, Rosa being large and floaty in the air, fast to avoid Rosas KO options without a solid read or throw at high percent makes it in Sheiks favor not by kill power but more again large floaty target, but Rosa has the tools to make it winnable, and even being significantly - MU, Rosa can do it with patience, smart play good spacing and opportunitistic punishes. If Rosa can out survive Sheik that's the key and disrupt momentum, Sheik gets momentum it's like taking the flag and running with it,

Stages- Avoid SV! Many times in tournies is a gentlemans options but donot play it vs a Sheik. Sure many are aware of the rediculous f air combos assisted by the platform. T&C is decent, along with BF, and Dreamland is okay. FD isn't the worst idea if you can't counterpick anything better, but she can needle camp you the strongest there. With BF and Dreamland, be careful on platforms! Sheiks up smash tipper perfectly comes through the platform and tipper up smash is very harsh to Rosa, fully charged she can die at ~60 depending on rage. Also watch for Sheiks going for it on get ups as well. Basically with stages nothing is an advantage for Rosa, but there worse than others. Lylat actually is ok because Sheik isn't as maneuverable on Rosa there, and space is restricted. Usually I try for T&C dreamland or BF in the MU.
 

Joaco

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Smashville is not that bad for Rosalina. Sometimes when I knock Luma offstage the moving platforms saves it. T&C is the best starter in this mu for Rosa, but a smart Sheik will ban it (as Dream Land). When picking a Starter vs Sheik, think if you prefer Battlefield, Smashville or FD, because you will end in one of those 3. Lylat is not ok, Sheik can fu** Rosa offstage there and stage tilting does not help Rosa, and stage tilting+Sheik crouching makes almost every one of Rosa's attacks whiff.
You need to use a lot of jab, because it leaves Sheik in a bad position. Getting hit by a jab for us Sheiks is a very bad thing.
 

Lange

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Smashville is not that bad for Rosalina. Sometimes when I knock Luma offstage the moving platforms saves it. T&C is the best starter in this mu for Rosa, but a smart Sheik will ban it (as Dream Land). When picking a Starter vs Sheik, think if you prefer Battlefield, Smashville or FD, because you will end in one of those 3. Lylat is not ok, Sheik can fu** Rosa offstage there and stage tilting does not help Rosa, and stage tilting+Sheik crouching makes almost every one of Rosa's attacks whiff.
You need to use a lot of jab, because it leaves Sheik in a bad position. Getting hit by a jab for us Sheiks is a very bad thing.
Maybe I thought SV was worse than it is against Sheik in the MU, because in many MUs it is bad thinking of the type of stuff Zero does with fairs at a top level is insane on that stage. I haven't had it happen so much to me personally but I thought the possibility was still there is why I said that. I otherwise agree with you mostly other than Lylat. Its kind of like I was saying that its pick your poison kind of scenario vs Sheik that some stages are worse than others and nothing is much of an advantage. Lylat felt like it was less advantagous for Sheik in that sense. Tilting doesn't help Rosa no, but the higher platforms help avoid upsmash from Sheik and restrict Sheiks space. The wiffing can be true, though theres ways to manage that. I guess i'm not 100% sure on Lylat, was going off the premise of being one of Rosas better stages in general. How does Sheik *** Rosa offstage though? I don't really see that being much different than anything else other than the lip(which is bad in general lol).

Thanks for the insight ill probably edit that post about SV at least if your sure the fair to death isn't as big of a factory.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Sheik is being analyzed again for this week. If you have anything to contribute for the match-up, especially in regards to the newest software update, this is the place to do it.
 

HoSmash4

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All I have to say from a sheik perspective, Dabuz played the sheik matchup almost perfectly vs Zero/Void.
 
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