AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Yup. Rosalina's best bet is to use FSB to detonate the ballons and prevent villager from regrab (only like 1 damage)....I completely forgot that Luma Warp did damage
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Yup. Rosalina's best bet is to use FSB to detonate the ballons and prevent villager from regrab (only like 1 damage)....I completely forgot that Luma Warp did damage
If the villager is stalling on the ledge, Rosalina can just shield the up b explosion or anything that Villager throws at her and down smash Villager. Also, since we're assuming that both players are at the highest skill level, I don't think the Villager would be stupid enough to stall on the ledge (=no stage control) and grab the ledge a second time, since there's about 20 frames of vulnerability.Not really the explosive ballons trade in your favor . If you alread released a set a ballons all you need to do is up B again and luma gets blown up. Their maybe a small window to get a hit in but that's it.
The sequence would be something like ledge drop Up B. If you have the sapling it out cuts off rosalina options. So it's the ballons vs luma and Villager wins that.
You're forgetting counter timber sapling. Villagers zoning is different when he's playing the ledge game. He's in complete control of the ledge despite being on the ledge. Shielding the up B is fine but it doesn't give you a free up smash.\
If the villager is stalling on the ledge, Rosalina can just shield the up b explosion or anything that Villager throws at her and down smash Villager. Also, since we're assuming that both players are at the highest skill level, I don't think the Villager would be stupid enough to stall on the ledge (=no stage control) and grab the ledge a second time, since there's about 20 frames of vulnerability.
My opinion with customs on is 45:55 Villager wins slightly, since Villager gets better at zoning with down b and gains a safer recovery with up b, but Rosalina gets a little bit better with the zoning with shooting star bit (I think you need to have insanely good reaction time or good read since Rosalina can just mix up the timing of shooting star bit to not let Villager take it that easily, plus the star bit is really quick), and gains a zone breaking option in Luma warp.
I actually did not forget the tripping sapling (I mentioned down b in my post), I think Villager has a slight, slight ADVANTAGE, and I never mentioned up smash in my post, so I'm kind of confused with your reply.You're forgetting counter timber sapling. Villagers zoning is different when he's playing the ledge game. He's in complete control of the ledge despite being on the ledge. Shielding the up B is fine but it doesn't give you a free up smash.
But yeah that's just my opinion though. Maybe there's something I've missed. But I do not believe Rosalina wins this MU with customs. Maybe one of the better Rosalinas know something I do not.
Luma warp doesn't break his zoning it at best only interrupts him while he's setting up. Once you're playing from behind those moves have lil to no impact and SSB is worthless. Luma warp is basically asking Luma to get killed.
Villager + Camping = BadHi ! I'm a Villager main who also used to play Rosalina a bit when the 3DS game just came out.
Sorry I won't talk about custom moves. Even though I think tripping sappling, etc. are far better than Villager's default moves in almost any matchups, I couldn't use them oftenly enough to give a proper reasoning because of the lack of custom moves in FG and in almost any minor / major tournament in my country.
So I would say Rosa-Villager matchup is in her favor like 60-40 and maybe more on omega stages. IMO it's one of our toughest matchups with Megaman. Let me explain :
Villager has a very strong camping game but he is not completely unable to approach thanks to his great gyroid. The thing is Rosa has an answer for both of these situations. Luma can be send to stop Villager's camping with just jabs and side-B, he can also stops incoming projectiles like Lloyd rocket and slingshots making an approach (and even camping) really difficult for us. Of course her down-b can also ruin pretty much the majority of our movepool, but like many reflector moves it can be bait and so it shouldn't be used every time.
Luckily, Rosa is a huge lady (at least by Nintendo's standards) and can be targeted by fair and bair without too much of a problem. The only issue will always be her cute little yellow star, but when characters are separated the task is less hard. Villager has still to be careful since fair and bair do have significant landing lag and can be punished and Rosalina's ground game is pretty solid. Reckless air approaches can also be destroyed with a good old shieldgrab (or even uptilt, if I'm remeber correctly, it outpriorizes the turnips), something Villager is not willing to do because of his infamous grab starting and ending lag. On the other hand, the insane range of his reverse grab can completely surprise a Rosalina and give a kill at fairly good % with a backthrow. Sadly he doesn't have any very fiable followups after his grab.
Edit : The famous villager combo down smash=>up smash, is a good way to finish off ennemies, but can be completely forgotten if Luma is around Rosa, making the kill a bit harder for Villager.
The two characters are floaty and relatively easy to juggle but Villager's dair and fair in this matchup are a bit risky since Rosa's have a superior range. By the way, that range can be very hard to deal with because Villager's best combo breaker is his incredible nair (hits on frame 3 !) and it's a close range move.
Good thing for Villager is if he gets to throw Rosa offstage he can sometimes gimp her badly. I usually go for fair and nair but as always Luma can be a pain just by being there and protecting her from the slingshot. If Luma is down, then it gets much easier. But as said earlier, even with him, Rosa is indeed some kindda BIG target.
And when she is below the stage, gimped by a frenetic Villager's nair, I know it can be a pain to correctly aim with her non-forgiving up-b.
Hope it will help the discussion, do not hesitate to correct me if you think I'm wrong or I'm forgetting something.
With the new patch, Luma will die more often, so I guess it will slightly effect Luma's zoning advantage against Meta Knight.I thought we were assuming highest level possible from both sides, so for the exact same reasons as @ mario123007 and the fact that Meta Knight is better at edgeguarding Rosalina than vice versa, I give 60:40 Rosalina. Luma zoning I think plays a big part in this matchup.
spacing with ftilt and dtilt is pretty bad because you need to be in the middle of luma for the attacks to be in range, and if youre in range luma is always threatening its safe on block jab. she also floats off the ground on her animations so dtilt misses very easily. just stick to dash attack and dash grabs. its kinda hard to get in against rosa because of lumas jab but after like a few tornados/grabs rosa is ready to die, so it feels really in favor of mk hit for hit and its very easy to catch up even when youre far behind.
also rosa dair and uair are unbeatable even with shuttle loop, so you need to be kind of careful during recovery for once. uair chains are also extremely free if luma isnt around. pretty straightforward matchup, id say its a bit in mks favor.
Guess I'll just add on to what warionumbah2 said since that covered a large part of the MU.
As long as you throw immediately after grabbing, Luma will enter a panic state where it's flailing its arms and can't do anything. All throws are safe, just don't pummel. D-Throw also hits Luma and knocks it away if you shield grab Rosalina. And if you dash grab, you'll slide away from Luma anyway.
The big factor of this MU is that Rosalina doesn't get a Luma for the majority of the match because MK has numerous and easy ways to off it without missing a beat. Her attack speed without Luma is pretty average and she misses a portion of her damage and reach as well without Luma. At low percent, it's always with trading damage for roughly 16-17 seconds without Luma but playing smart will eventually net you the KO without the risk.
Drill Rush handles Rosalina's edge-guarding traps. It beats Luma on the ledge and we can either bounce off Luma and fast fall to grab ledge, angle ourselves after we hit Luma and bounce off the floor and fast fall to grab ledge, or bounce of Rosalina herself and grab ledge. It puts Luma into its stunned state so Luma won't be a threat when getting off the ledge. High Speed Drill is also pretty decent for recovering in the same fashion and High Speed Drill also gives MK another very easy option to KO Luma at any point.
Piercing Cape makes it much easier to land from a juggle against Rosalina due to its long vertical teleportation range and its decreased ending lag. But choosing that option means it's safe for Rosalina to throw out charged Smash Attacks on ledge. With default Dimensional Cape, MK can get free damage or even a KO if Rosalina dares charge a move or enter her Rapid Jab state.
Know your options when juggling. Her D-Air beats our Up-Air but she's vulnerable from the sides, predict it and B-Air or F-Air. I think Up-Tilt actually out-reaches her D-Air but I'm not sure. Shield Grab on flat stages but it's not likely Rosalina will take you to a flat stage. You can also Up-Smash OoS for the KO. Rosalina has trouble landing against any character so this isn't just something MK's good at.
Off-stage Rosalina should eat quite a bit of damage before coming back, if she comes back. Hang off the ledge and wait for her Up-B. It's slow enough to react to so B-Air or N-Air on-ledge if she recovers low and jump on-stage and chase her for a combo if she recovers high. Hanging off the ledge really gives MK a lot of control so abuse it.
As for stages, Smashville is your best stage. It gives you a landing option on the platform, you can platform camp, and if Rosalina lands on the platform, she has no way of keeping you from Up-Air pressuring her due to her very slow D-Air. Lylat is your next best bet due to the higher ceiling and the horrible ledges making Rosalina's recovery even worse. Lylat is also nice for landing out of juggles via cape due to the platforms allowing you to mix-up where you cape to.
Avoid Town & City, Delfino, and Castle Siege and you should be fine. Battlefield is good for Rosalina but it's great for MK too.
Those questions should probably be asked at the Q&A thread. Also, all characters will be analyzed more than once, especially since the discussion period results that were made before the 1.0.6 update may be outdated now.Can anyone give a good explanation why Pikachu and Sheik win against Rosa?
Also, what do you guys think of Diddy post-patch?
Kind of feel pity that the later character MUs didn't make it to the analysis before the patch...Those questions should probably be asked at the Q&A thread. Also, all characters will be analyzed more than once, especially since the discussion period results that were made before the 1.0.6 update may be outdated now.
I'd love to take you up on that offer! I love practicing this matchup, and could use a few more times getting wrecked by good Lucarios before I give my input here. I'll be available for games tonight, around 8-10 PM EST.Hope this info is useful for both of us! Also, feel free to ask for some matches! We know there's a lack of good aura guardians there, and definitely the good ones are not campers and have a strong mix-up game.
Looking forward for this MU!
Any live streams?I'd love to take you up on that offer! I love practicing this matchup, and could use a few more times getting wrecked by good Lucarios before I give my input here. I'll be available for games tonight, around 8-10 PM EST.
It's mostly just going to be friendlies for a while, but I can save the best replays for you if you'd like.Any live streams?
Okay, so will you post the replay here? Do you have a Youtube channel?It's mostly just going to be friendlies for a while, but I can save the best replays for you if you'd like.
Oh, none of the matches really struck me as exceptional. They were all good, but none really stood out... Okay, I might have forgotten. We'll be playing more matches soon, and hopefully one of us will remember to send you a few replays. I don't really have the means to upload replays to Youtube ( would have to be recorded with a phone ), but I can add you to my friends list, and directly transfer the replay thanks to the handy dandy new feature they added this patch.Okay, so will you post the replay here? Do you have a Youtube channel?
Oh yeah, make sure not to double post.
Thanks ^^. Anyway, the matchup rating is an assumption based on how these characters will play a year or so from now, when the meta is stable, edgeguards are perfected, and matchups are a science. I just think Rosa's frailty against a character who is designed to take the first stock, then snowball out of control can't be advantageous for her.O c'mon, the matches were even, and I tried to avoid Luma's shennanigans the most as I could.
Honestly, that was the very first time I saw an offensive RosaLuma, and experienced for the first time some shenanigans of yours (Spinning Luma, Short pass Luma...)
Being honest, that was maybe the best RosaLuma (offensively oriented) and I can't give you any tips, I was too amused for those shenanigans that I can't tell, but it's cool stuff, don't lose it!
He pulled it off once against me. I believe it's doing a jump canceled upsmash out of the charge such that there's no delay. I don't think it's a true combo, but should be nearly guaranteed against an opponent without their jump. Correct me if I'm wrong Eeveecario ( Oh, and my day opened up, so I'll be here playing for a quite a bit today. Let me know if you want more matches ).@ Eeveecario Not really matchup related, but how does aura sphere charge into up smash work? I saw this in a video of Rain vs Motsunabe and was wondering.
Aura Sphere Charge -> Shield -> Jump => Up smash cancelling Jump.@ Eeveecario Not really matchup related, but how does aura sphere charge into up smash work? I saw this in a video of Rain vs Motsunabe and was wondering.
Correct! About if it's a true combo or not... sorry! It's a secret =3!He pulled it off once against me. I believe it's doing a jump canceled upsmash out of the charge such that there's no delay. I don't think it's a true combo, but should be nearly guaranteed against an opponent without their jump. Correct me if I'm wrong Eeveecario ( Oh, and my day opened up, so I'll be here playing for a quite a bit today. Let me know if you want more matches ).
Uh... I hope you record it with your phone....Oh, none of the matches really struck me as exceptional. They were all good, but none really stood out... Okay, I might have forgotten. We'll be playing more matches soon, and hopefully one of us will remember to send you a few replays. I don't really have the means to upload replays to Youtube ( would have to be recorded with a phone ), but I can add you to my friends list, and directly transfer the replay thanks to the handy dandy new feature they added this patch.