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Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

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Mario & Sonic Guy

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R.O.B.'s discussion period is now over, so I've added up all the ratio inputs for the Rosalina vs. R.O.B. match-up, to get the average...

:rosalina: [52.5:47.5] :4rob:

The match-up favors Rosalina a little, but not that much.

Next up, we'll be analyzing Rosalina's match-up against the Demon King, Ganondorf. The Ganondorf sub-forum may have analyzed Rosalina already, but now it's our turn to analyze him.

 

mario123007

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:4ganondorf:Ganondorf-
  • slow, don't have projectiles
  • strong attacks, can easily KO Rosalina with only some standard attacks.
  • Can K.O. Luma relatively easily
:rosalina:Rosalina & Luma-
  • Better recovery than Ganondorf
  • Has better start-up attacks.
  • Luma can easily out bash Ganondorf, only if use well.
  • Can zone in Ganondorf easily.
I say it's 70:30
Always welcome for correction!
 
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Shmeckie

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I'd add "Can K.O. Luma relatively easily" to your Ganon bulletpoints there. It's not uncommon for Ganon to kill Luma even as soon as Rosalina gets him back.
 

Claire Diviner

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lol. Okay, let's get one thing clear: Though Ganondorf is improved from his Brawl incarnation, he still has a lot of problems.

As for the matchup, from my experience, Ganondorf is not a hard matchup for Rosalina. Rosalina can zone him quite comfortably and can render everything outside of a grab useless if Rosalina is played defensively. Ganondorf's air game when Rosalina is above can be of a concern if Luma is absent, and Ganondorf can kill Rosalina fairly early. Otherwise, Ganon, with his weight, size, and lack of any really threatening approach options, shouldn't be feared... too much.

:rosalina: 70:30 :4ganondorf:
 

AceStarThe3rd

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Ganon, huh? okay

Pros
  • With Luma, He is absolutely zoned the hell out.
  • Star Bits is actually useful, Ganon is too slow to punish a nicely spaced Star Bits
  • Oml, is totally juggled to death by UAir (Watch out for Wizard's Foot)
  • Lunar Landed Nairs are easy to land which leads to the next point
  • Edgeguarding him is extremely easy
  • If Luma gets KO'd its more than easy to evade Ganon until Luma returns
  • Luma knocks him out of Side B follow ups

Cons (I guess)
  • Kills Luma very fast
  • Punishes are very hard and devistating
  • KO's very early
  • Wizard's Foot is very dangerous on the ground and in the air; grounded can destroy Luma, in the air can KO quite early (and you need to be below to do Uair Combos)


Considering how laughably easy this MU is; I rate this

:rosalina:85:15 :4ganondorf: Rosalina's Favor
 

jahkzheng

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I'm a casual Ganondorf player that hasn't really fought any good Rosalina's but I can tell she has the tools to really give him a hard time. And just from my time listening to the more competent Ganon's on our board I can tell that 70:30 will probably be the average take on the matchup. I'll just lurk and watch what everyone has to say. Maybe discussing this with the Rosas on the site will help pin it down more solidly. Sorry I can't contribute more. It's better left to the experts.
 
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MezzoMe

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I already talked about the match-up in the Ganon boards, though I needed to explain things like Lunar Landing, but my thoughts are unchanged.
Being a main of both characters I think that I should say what I know about this match-up
First off and most important thing:
Did you remember the Olimar match-up in Brawl days?
Well, at a point I thought that this match-up was like this.
But let's start off with the good things.
  1. Ganondorf can K.O. Her very easily, usually under 100%, prior to her being very light, especially to the upper blast line(prior to her being floaty);
  2. Ganondorf's attacks usually outprioritize hers when she's without Luma, of course, assuming her attack isn't trascendental, but with Luma things get weird since, if you didn't know, Luma is keen to wreck every rule of priority.
Well, that's about it.
When Rosalina sends away Luma you'll want to use USmash, DTilt and hitlag/auto-cancelled aerials, since other attacks will most likely get punished.
With Ganondorf's high falling speed and big hurtbox, she can set-up a jab reset or a Bair/Nair lock with the Nair and Fair wich will end with a FSmash and a subsequent gimp if you aren't ready to tech.
Additionally, she can juggle Ganondorf 25/24h.
She also can end a stock pretty early with various gimps, namely with her Dair for Dark Dive and Bair for the Flame Choke (speaking of this, as it has already been stated, Ganondorf might end up frametrapping himself if he lands a Flame Choke) and by sending Luma to the ledge or offstage with smash attacks other than the afermentioned Dair and Bair(she needs to call Luma back for it to send you offstage).
She can pressure Ganon's shield heavily with Lunar Landing(auto-cancelling early her aerials, usually the Nair, so that she'll be lagless or nearly while Luma attacks, if she uses Side B or Neutral B Luma will partecipate normally to the attack interrupting the afermentioned aerials), with jab, star bits or by sending Luma near you and button mashing, as such there's no pratical option other than rolling away, granted you don't powershield the attack.
Did I forget something?
Oh, sure.
If you didn't know, Luma can attack only in the helpless state of Launch star, wich means that, after juggling you, she can UThrow/Smash/Tilt->Launch Star->Shoryuken(Luma's Uair) to kill early off the top blast line just as well as the bottom and sideways one.
But there are two situations where you are at an advantage.
The first is while juggling her, she can have trouble avoiding an Uair without reading it, if you for some reason menage to grab her, you can DThrow->Uair her and position yourself fiagonnally down in front of her, a position that can be covered only by the late hit of her Nair, Luma's Dair can hit Ganondorf as well, but the attack is slower than the Uair, just be aware of the Luma when he's on the way back to Rosalina.
The other situation is where she is recovering.
Her recovery has no hitboxes and can only travel three distances, despite traveling fast and far, giving you a chance to finish her stock.
It's not like I think this match-uo should be a straight 0:100, but she is at advantage in neutral and at an even harder one for any situation after the neutral, with the advantageus situations for Ganon being hard to pull off because of the afermentioned trouble in neutral.
However, with custom moves enabled, this match-up might become somewhat playable, though it probably still isn't even.
You will want to use the most common set(2-3-2-2) and here's why.
Warlock Blade
It can eat all of Luma's options when sent out, forcing Rosalina to call him back, with his deceptive range potentially making it unpunishable, it can also pressure a distant lunar landing, and will also blast away Luma, also if it breaks her shield, Warlock can finish her reliably.
Flame Chain
Other than not frametrapping Ganondorf, it'll also drag Luma offstage, though it's likely to be punished if Rosalina shields(unless she's on the ledge) or dodges the attack in various ways.
Wizard Dropkick
Helped by Rosalina's sub-par aerial speed, it can save Ganon from juggles, other than making his recovery a little scarier and better, forcing her juggling to be at ground level
Dark Fists
It can eat the hit attempting to juggle, edgeguard or shield pressure you(unless it ends with a grab) and can be used as mix-up and with baiting in general akin to Vanish, since the Super Armor lasts until the hitbox comes out (and I'm pretty sure that that hitbox is trascendental?), but it kills stupidly early already at a ground level.
For what matters of Rosalina's customs, Shooting Star Bit can be powershielded (if expected) or dodged with Wizard Dropkick, while you have to be cautious with Floaty Star Bits. With Luma Warp you must be more cautios than Luma Shot since the move is nearly istantaneous at the cost of sending Luma a set distance and not being able to kill. I think that Launch Star Plus can help her with the Luma's Shoryouken. Luma Guardian can be used by her if you are too relentless but it will often get beaten by Dark Fists.
I would rate this match-up between :rosalina:95:5:4ganondorf: and :rosalina:100:0:4ganondorf: with customs banned. I'm undecided, especially since I think I am too drastic. With customs legal it becomes :rosalina:55:45:4ganondorf:.
This is all because of the neutral, since in other situations they pretty much end up dominating each other.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I already talked about the match-up in the Ganon boards, though I needed to explain things like Lunar Landing, but my thoughts are unchanged.

I would rate this match-up between :rosalina:95:5:4ganondorf: and :rosalina:100:0:4ganondorf: with customs banned. I'm undecided, especially since I think I am too drastic. With customs legal it becomes :rosalina:55:45:4ganondorf:.
This is all because of the neutral, since in other situations they pretty much end up dominating each other.
Because the match-up outcome could fluctuate with the use of customizations, I put you down as 75:25. Is that okay?
 

MezzoMe

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Because the match-up outcome could fluctuate with the use of customizations, I put you down as 75:25. Is that okay?
I'm not one for rates of match-ups rapresenting two completely different situations being mixed, but it's fine since until now we must have a single match-up, if you prefer, you can take only the rate assuming banned customs, since we ignored them before, though I would propose that for the second round, when we will analize the match-ups a second time, we have the rates separated depending on the legality of customs, since it appears like the afermentioned legality is becoming more common.
 

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I'm not one for rates of match-ups rapresenting two completely different situations being mixed, but it's fine since until now we must have a single match-up, if you prefer, you can take only the rate assuming banned customs, since we ignored them before, though I would propose that for the second round, when we will analize the match-ups a second time, we have the rates separated depending on the legality of customs, since it appears like the afermentioned legality is becoming more common.
Your proposal will be noted for round 2. I simply averaged out your 95:5 and 55:45 ratios, because the involvement of custom specials can play a factor on the match-up's outcome; this is especially true for the Rosalina vs. Zelda match-up.
 

Zonderion

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This is what I posted on the GanonBoards, so I'll stick to that. 70:30, Rosalina's favor.
I'm here to give my input, as a Rosalina main. I have not played any decent Ganons, so take this for what it's worth.

Luma is vital for this match up. If you aren't Luma hunting, you're doing it wrong. Rosalina cannot control Luma in the beginning stages of her hitstun, so if you get a good read, take out Luma. Once Luma is gone, expect Rosa to space and stall.

Since her aerials out match Ganon's, A good Rosalina will play the majority of the match in the air. Short hops, full hops, both defensively and offensively. This helps prevent ground approaches from Ganon as well as grabs. She should always keep her second jump as a back up.

If Rosalina grabs you expect to be juggled. Do your best with air dodges and other efforts to get back to the ground. Rosalina's off stage game is incredible and Ganon's is sub par. If recovering low watch for dair, if recovering high watch for fair, nair, or Luma shot.

This is one match where I will play with Luma separated, but only the minimal distance. I will only do this about 30% of the match though. This gives me more stage control, but the minimal distance doesn't allow Ganon to get in.

Go for hard reads in the middle of the stage, if you miss there is a good chance you will still be on the stage. If you connect, there's a good chance Rosalina will die. If you miss on the edge, you could get gimped.

Again, This may be because I haven't played any decent Ganons, but I give this match a 30:70 in Rosalina favor.

I would be more than happy to play against Ganon, so shoot me A pm if you are interested. I need practice against a good Ganon.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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I think Rosalina has a large advantage vs. Ganondorf, but being who he is, it only takes one or two mistakes or reads and the match is even again. It doesn't help that Rosalina is so light. If it's still alive, Luma does a good job of invalidating his command grab.

I'll say 70:30 Rosalina's favor with the caveat that we really can't afford to get hit. This is not a matchup where relying on Luma to retaliate from trades will cut it.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Some of these MU numbers. I'd give it 7-3 for Rosalina.

Ganon's like most characters will give rosalina trouble while she's recovering. His ability to edgeguard is pretty good between uair and bair and sometimes dair. However you edgeguard him just as hard if not harder. Dtilt ganoncide attempts bair when you chase him and slike his up B. Rosalina controlls the stage and neutral. Umm that's about it I know people say ganon us stronger in this game but I don't see it personally.
 

icraq

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I'm lucky enough to live in the same city as a Ganondorf god and I have quite a bit of experience here.

So on paper, Rosalina just wrecks Ganondorf but you have to understand we're not all robots, no one plays perfectly, we all make mistakes. Rosalina can outspace and harass Ganondorf safely but one tiny mistake is going to get you killed. A good Ganondorf will read you and never let you go unpunished. I've had so many times where I've had an easy lead over Zerxion's Ganondorf and he manages to just destroy me out of nowhere. So, lets talk Rosa weaknesses.

First of all, Ganondorf's moves do a ton of percent so they have a ton of hitlag if they hit Luma. This means Rosalina can never spot dodge Ganondorf's hard hitting moves because they will all last longer than her spot dodge animation if they connect with Luma. Luma can be your worst enemy in this matchup. This includes aerials as well, if Ganondorf fairs Luma and you air dodge, when you come out of air dodge his fair is going to still be active. If your opponent is aware of this and uses it properly and learns your dodge patterns on the ground and in the air he will make your life hell.

Another obvious weakness is Rosalina's lightness. You're really only allowed a couple mistakes vs Ganondorf. Don't ever get cocky if you're destroying Ganondorf, he's just biding his time and waiting for the perfect moment to catch you off guard. It's possible to die at 50% in this MU, sometimes less.

Ganondorf also has one of the best edge guards against Rosalina in the game (luckily Rosa has one of the best vs Ganondorf, too). His uair lasts long enough to hit Rosa out of her UpB and can kill at low percents. You need to mix up recovering high and recovering low. Ganondorf can go pretty low, too, his recovery can actually reach deceptively high, so it isn't uncommon to see him doing two uairs in a row from a ledge hop while you're recovering.

His ftilt can beat our stand up to shield and our roll on stage on reaction, so jumping back on stage is mostly your best bet. This can get read but I think it's still the safest option. Getting ftilted can kill super early on the ledge, so don't risk it.

And as already has been mentioned, Ganondorf can just look at Luma wrong and it'll go flying off the screen. Without Luma Ganondorf is DEFINITELY at an advantage. Just don't fight him without Luma, ever.

Anyways, onto positives.

Uthrow to uair to uair to uair to uair to you're never touching the ground again, Ganondorf. He's probably the easiest character to juggle in the game, he doesn't get sent very high so it's super easy to combo into a 2nd uair, his only option is air dodge but his air mobility is garbage. If he DownB's you make sure to try and tech the stage if it spikes, it can kill you at like 60%. Aim with the halo, don't aim with Luma's uair, it will get out prioritized. Always be aware of his downB, you can almost always play the juggle game safely but don't mess up, you'll regret it. If you can't get directly underneath him don't even try juggling til you can.

Dair to dair to dair to dair to you're never getting back on the stage again, Ganondorf. Our dair is just too good here. If Ganondorf recovers low there's literaly nothing to stop you from just killing him with dair. It's not all that simple though, Ganondorf's sideB is a mixup he can use but you can bait it and punish with Fsmash, it doesn't ledge snap most of the time so it's super vulnerable. Luma's dair can beat his sideB too, since he can't grab Luma, but if you whiff it, GG.

Oh god and Flame Choke is so terrible vs Rosalina on the ground. It's so incredibly easy to punish Ganondorf with Luma immediately after he uses it, makes it easy to initiate the infinite jab spin with Luma or you can utilt or whatever you want.




Well, to sum it up in as few words as possible:

Don't get hit and hit him until he's dead.

Seriously, don't get hit.
 

Vermanubis

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Ripping this from the Ganon MU thread. My thoughts on the MU:

Just about everything that makes Ganon hurt is present: reliable and safe ways to keep him out; extremely easily juggled by UAirs; choke is absolutey nonviable; no guaranteed follow-ups; gimped easily.

Ganon's MO in this MU is to poke Rosalina, be it with DTilts, BAirs or whatever. As ridiculous as that sounds, a defensive Rosa has no reason to respect our mix-up game because of Luma. The most reliable way to separate Luma is wizkick, but it's extremely unsafe, since Luma usually slows the kick down enough to block it from Rosa, so it's almost always a trade -- separate Luma in exchange for being punished.

In fact, that's Ganon's way in this MU: you have to be willing to take hits to make Rosa manageable, whether it be through wizkicking Luma, or choking her with the knowledge that Luma will just knock you off just to rack damage. Smart Rosas will know that they have zero reason to drop their shields or roll. When they know this, the MU becomes a nightmare where poking with DTilts and fishing for set-ups becomes the primary objective.

The (quasi) good news, however, is that her up-b, with sufficient prediction, can be intercepted with a UAir offstage. It has to be done with very good timing, though.

NAir is our best punish OoS against her DA, and it's a great spacing tool, especially if retreated. BAir walls also make it kinda tough for her to approach.

On the ledge, she's tough to deal with. She can cover most options with Luma's jab. As for her coming back onto the stage, FAir is really good for coming onstage, and NAir or DA are good punishes for it.

Lastly, when she's without Luma, we definitely have the advantage. But the burden of offense is on us -- and we have a small time frame to do something about it. Worth mentioning also, if you hit Rosa and she still has Luma, Luma's callback has a hitbox, which can make your day suck.

Overall, in my opinion, it's a 70:30 for Rosa. Against smart, defensive Rosas, Ganon struggles for every hit, and in order to win, has to rely almost exclusively on reads, which isn't something I think is itself a merit for a favorable MU ratio. There is simply, in my mind, nothing about Ganon as a character that Rosa has to worry about.
 
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icraq

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Ripping this from the Ganon MU thread. My thoughts on the MU:

Just about everything that makes Ganon hurt is present: reliable and safe ways to keep him out; extremely easily juggled by UAirs; choke is absolutey nonviable; no guaranteed follow-ups; gimped easily.

Ganon's MO in this MU is to poke Rosalina, be it with DTilts, BAirs or whatever. As ridiculous as that sounds, a defensive Rosa has no reason to respect our mix-up game because of Luma. The most reliable way to separate Luma is wizkick, but it's extremely unsafe, since Luma usually slows the kick down enough to block it from Rosa, so it's almost always a trade -- separate Luma in exchange for being punished.

In fact, that's Ganon's way in this MU: you have to be willing to take hits to make Rosa manageable, whether it be through wizkicking Luma, or choking her with the knowledge that Luma will just knock you off just to rack damage. Smart Rosas will know that they have zero reason to drop their shields or roll. When they know this, the MU becomes a nightmare where poking with DTilts and fishing for set-ups becomes the primary objective.

The (quasi) good news, however, is that her up-b, with sufficient prediction, can be intercepted with a UAir offstage. It has to be done with very good timing, though.

NAir is our best punish OoS against her DA, and it's a great spacing tool, especially if retreated. BAir walls also make it kinda tough for her to approach.

On the ledge, she's tough to deal with. She can cover most options with Luma's jab. As for her coming back onto the stage, FAir is really good for coming onstage, and NAir or DA are good punishes for it.

Lastly, when she's without Luma, we definitely have the advantage. But the burden of offense is on us -- and we have a small time frame to do something about it. Worth mentioning also, if you hit Rosa and she still has Luma, Luma's callback has a hitbox, which can make your day suck.

Overall, in my opinion, it's a 70:30 for Rosa. Against smart, defensive Rosas, Ganon struggles for every hit, and in order to win, has to rely almost exclusively on reads, which isn't something I think is itself a merit for a favorable MU ratio. There is simply, in my mind, nothing about Ganon as a character that Rosa has to worry about.
baha i didnt know you were on here, I should've summoned you earlier.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I know that I've inputted my thoughts on the Rosalina vs. Ganondorf match-up at the Ganondorf sub-forum, but I'm refraining from posting my match-up ratio here, since I'm the thread owner.

Anyway, the quote below is what I've posted at the Ganondorf match-up discussion thread when it was analyzing Ganondorf's match-up against Rosalina.

With Rosalina, the only Ganondorf player that I ever fought online was James, and customizations were involved during that match. I have been caught off-guard by a good number of his aerial Wizard's Foot attacks, and as such, I have been punished for not anticipating them when I should've known better.

Of course, the match wasn't on an Omega Form stage, so we both had to be weary of the stage hazards.

Anyway, while I haven't done much if any online matches, Ganondorf does have the brute strength to send Rosalina flying quickly, but his low mobility can make it hard for him to approach Rosalina without receiving too much punishment from her. The Luma adds to the trouble, since it can get at Ganondorf's face before he even has a chance of touching Rosalina.

If the Luma is taken out of the picture, however, Ganondorf may have a chance to turn the fight around, but he still can't allow himself to be wide-open for Rosalina to take advantage of his weaknesses. If Rosalina sees Wizard's Foot coming, she can punish Ganondorf by blocking the attack, and then grabbing him. Flame Choke does bypass shields, but a good Rosalina can simply roll to avoid it, and then punish Ganondorf right back.

With customizations turned on, Rosalina can use Shooting Star Bit to attack Ganondorf from a distance, which can make it even harder for him to approach Rosalina without seeing his damage increase.

In terms of recovery, Ganondorf has to stay below ledges to avoid getting punished by Rosalina's edge-guard options.

Overall, it's a punish or be punished situation for Ganondorf, since Rosalina can really put a big beating on him if he's too careless with his attack options. Even if Rosalina is lacking a Luma, she can still punish Ganondorf real hard if he makes even one foolish attack choice.

In conclusion, I probably see this match-up favoring Rosalina more, so for now, I'll go with 30:70, with Rosalina having the advantage.
 

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Yeah, this matchup is pretty bad for Ganondorf. Even with Customs ever trending towards legal and common right now, it's still hard for Ganon. Without customs, Luma pretty much obliterates all of Ganondorf's best options in the neutral. He can kill Luma easily, but he'll take a few hits to do so, and Rosa can camp him out until Luma comes back. Ganon has monstrous kill power against Rosa, but getting the damage to kill her in the first place is the hard part, and Rosa will almost never put herself in a position to get F-smashed unless she's being utterly disrespectful. Platforms don't help Ganon in this matchup, because Rosa loves being in the air even more than Ganon. Star Bits actually does wonders in this matchup.

One thing I should note. I did fight a Rosalina online who definitely had some technology up their sleeve. They would use Star Bits from Luma, then jump in with Luma still on the ground in front of Ganon, forcing him to shield while Rosa used her aerials. This actually never worked on me, and actually was probably the reason I won several games. I had never seen it before, and while I admit it was cute and flashy, it still wasn't effective, so if you know this trick, don't use it in this MU, it just makes you easier to Fsmash.

Without customs it's easily 70:30 Rosa's advantage.

With customs, it gets closer, but still Rosa's advantage.

Warlock Blade is great against Luma because it has ridiculous range, so it can out-space standard star bits, but will take hits from ranged star bits. Tip of the sword breaks shields instantly. Rest of the sword will bring the shield to 1hp.

Flame Chain destroys Luma, and can move past Rosa's shield if she's not near the ledge, making it easier for Ganon to break her camping game.

Wizard Dropkick gives him such good recovery that he often doesn't need to use second jump or up-B, making him harder to gimp. Can also be used to get out of juggles, which is one of the biggest reasons Ganon suffers in this matchup. Also hops over ranged star bits, doesn't slow down if it hits luma, and has less endlag.

Dark Fists is a hard-read killer. Easy to land on Rosa because of her floatiness, but requires a hard read to work, even with its super armor on startup.

With customs, it comes as close as 55:45 in Rosa's favor, since Ganon's customs effectively solve a lot of problems he has in this MU, and Rosa's customs don't change enough to counteract the options he gains.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I don't see how it gets better with customs. Rosalina can zone with her star bits I think it's called. Teleporting luma ....
 
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Ganondorf's discussion period is now over. As such, I've added up all the ratio inputs to get the average for Rosalina vs. Ganondorf.

:rosalina: [72:28 (or 70.5:29.5)] :4ganondorf:

Due to the two ratio inputs that @ JmacAttack JmacAttack posted, I had to input two different averages for this match-up. Despite the two different averages though, Rosalina, for the most part, has the upper hand.

Next up, we'll be analyzing Rosalina's match-up against Namco's yellow mascot, PAC-MAN.

 

Xinc

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Ganondorf's discussion period is now over. As such, I've added up all the ratio inputs to get the average for Rosalina vs. Ganondorf.

:rosalina: [72:28 (or 70.5:29.5)] :4ganondorf:

Due to the two ratio inputs that @ JmacAttack JmacAttack posted, I had to input two different averages for this match-up. Despite the two different averages though, Rosalina, for the most part, has the upper hand.

Next up, we'll be analyzing Rosalina's match-up against Namco's yellow mascot, PAC-MAN.

That moment when you're on the west coast… On Ganon boards I put it 65-35 due to the options Ganondorf actually has when the two are separated. Haha. That's the tl;dr version of what I wrote over there. Plus, Ganon is fairly decent at juggles.
 

mario123007

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:4pacman: Pac-man
  • Slow fall and easy to get air launched, but also hard to get koed.
  • Most attacks are slow but the special moves are really unpredictable
  • Bells can stung and punish Rosalina.
  • Keys can ko her
  • Melons can cause multiple damage
  • Smashes are quite powerful and have quite a knockback
:rosalina:Rosalina & Luma
  • Can air juggle Pac man easily
  • Need to handle Pac-man's unpredictable projectiles
  • Can be koed easily than Pac-man
  • Has more punishable Smash attacks then Pacman
  • Air attacks to much more damage
I give 55:45 to this matchup
 
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mario123007

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@ mario123007 mario123007 : Is that 55:45, in Rosalina's favor? I'm a bit confused.
Confused? Yeah, I wrote a lot of Pacman because he has a lot of projectiles, but I think Rosalina still has an advantage with using the GP. Yes it is 55:45. Rosalina has slightly an advantage.
 

Nu~

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This technique right here helps a bit in the matchup. Makes it so that you can't use GP as frequently without healing us up.
You do still win the range battle though, but by using this technique, we can kill Luma faster with our projectiles.

If you GP, we heal. If you shield, Luma dies to hydrant and fruit pressure.
 
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Paper Maribro

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Pac Man has some amazing tools to do a lot of damage to Luma safely, a strong projectile game and good recovery, a good anti juggle tool in hydrant and a lot more aerial mobility.

However one move defines this Matchup. Grav Pull.

Grav Pull takes away our strong projectile game, our ability to damage Luma safely, our recovery (to an extent) and our anti juggle.

The fact Rosalina and Luma has access to one low lag, low start up, generally non-risky move that invalidates two of our most important tools in the MU is really brutal on Pac and turns the matchup into a patience based, slow and long game. Pac has to work twice as hard as the opponent to get anywhere and the opponent must focus on all of Pac's mindgames and not be sucked into letting Pac getting the upperhand. Timeouts are likely in this MU with three stock matches lasting in the range of 6-7 minutes likely.

So what else is there to say about this MU?

Well, Pac really struggles to get Luma dead easily without taking huge risks. With Luma, Rosalina has a MASSIVE power and range advantage that is utterly overwhelming for Pac to deal with a lot of the time. When Pac can get the upperhand though, R&L finds it really hard to shake him off and Pac's quick aerials and high aerial mobility can lead to several strikes. This doesn't mitigate that fact that R&L can invalidate Pac's moveset though and force dangerous approaches. To me this matchup is

Rosalina and Luma 70:30 Pac Man

If any of you Rosalinas have
any questions about this MU, feel free to ask. I play a lot with a R&L main and we both agree this MU is horrid for Pac. In fact, most if not all Pacs agree this is our single worst MU.
 

Nu~

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I would have believed that it's 70:30 before the pellet technique. You have to admit, with the pellet technique, we don't have to work twice as hard anymore. If she wants to sit back and use down B, we can heal. It eventually conditions the opponent to use it less, which advances us to advantage much quicker.
My opinion in the matchup is 40:60 Rosa's favor. It becomes a stalemate in which we can gain a health advantage if she wants to repeatedly throw out GP, but we still can't use our fruit as freely. Also, we can kill Luma lot easier with this technique
 
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Paper Maribro

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I would have believed that it's 70:30 before the pellet technique. You have to admit, with the pellet technique, we don't have to work twice as hard anymore. If she wants to sit back and use down B, we can heal. It eventually conditions the opponent to use it less, which advances us to advantage much quicker.
My opinion in the matchup is 40:60 Rosa's favor. It becomes a stalemate in which we can gain a health advantage if she wants to repeatedly throw out GP, but we still can't use our fruit as freely. Also, we can kill Luma lot easier with this technique
They shouldn't be spamming it mindlessly anyway. I know Dabuz did a little bit in his match against Abadango but one little gimmick that only applies to a grav pull spamming opponent doesn't really change the matchup by any measurable degree, I'm afraid.
 

Nu~

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They shouldn't be spamming it mindlessly anyway. I know Dabuz did a little bit in his match against Abadango but one little gimmick that only applies to a grav pull spamming opponent doesn't really change the matchup by any measurable degree, I'm afraid.
Well you can do it after you throw a hydrant. That way you gain something while rosa gains nothing. The hydrant also refreshes immediately after being absorbed by GP. That way, you can toss them much quicker (especially with z dropped key) and if rosa tries to GP any of them, you can get a free heal off. It's use is to condition the opponent to use GP less, and puts more pressure on luma. Doesn't have to be someone who spams it. Just someone who tries to GP every item you throw (which is what rosa will want to do)

And even then, Rosa can't throw out GP safely in mid range. It's the reason why mega man mains say the matchup is even for them.
If we store our fruit, and only use it to apply pressure in mid range,
(not constantly run away and try to throw things from a distance like Abadango, but at the same time, not trying to play super aggro)
then the matchup can be very difficult for rosa.
I play this matchup like mega man, it's a playstyle I'm very used to, and rewards me the most in this matchup. Only use fruits in mid range (especially melon. It causes mindgames that may make the opponent use GP while they are too close to you)
After a hit confirm from fruit, then you can start comboing. We need to stick to rosa, but only at a set distance.
Unfortunately, we can't throw out projectiles as rapidly as megaman. Hence why I still believe this is in rosa's favor.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Remember, while Gravitational Pull can render projectile games ineffective, if the projectiles are fired/thrown at close range, Rosalina might not have enough time to counter them. Of course, this does depend on how fast the projectile gets fired, since it's harder for Rosalina to counter Robin's Thoron than it is for her to counter Bowser Jr.'s Clown Cannon.

In PAC-MAN's case, he has to throw his Bonus Fruit at a range that Rosalina can't react fast enough to counter. If PAC-MAN throws his Bonus Fruit too far away, Rosalina will have enough time to Gravitational Pull the Bonus Fruit, and even use it against PAC-MAN.
 

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Rosalina definitely has an advantage against Pac-man, Pac-man mains often have heated discussion on how much of an advantage that actually is. Personally I am in the 65:35 range for this fight.

Rosalina is a wall that Pac-man has to be meticulous and careful to break. Gravity pull is part of that, but the larger part is Luma. Pac-man is very susceptible to Luma counter attacks excluding fairs and crossups that keep us away from Luma. Luma also can block attacks allowing a hitstun free Rosalina able to counter attack. Her aerials beat Pac-man's both in range and disjoints. She is able to counter approaches very easily, and Luma makes it so we are basically without our grab normally. At the same time, Rosalina is unable to really get after Pac-man because of his zoning tools. So it becomes a bit of a stalemate in neutral.

Without Luma, Pac-man is able to really apply pressure to Rosalina up close using hydrant. Her hitbox and weight make those times without Luma Pac-man's best chance at ending stocks. Offstage, Pac-man has an advantage, because he has safe attacks to edge guard Rosalina with apple and Hydrant, Rosalina could grav pull off stage, but that allows Pac-man to bair to end the stock. However, Rosalina can neuter Pac-man's recovery incredibly easily with gravity pull when trying to come back.

The match might sound like it is in Pac-man's favor, but Gravity pull really does limit our options for offense. Luma also makes approaches difficult. She is definitely Pac-man's hardest matchup because he is forced to play in very limited and predictable playstyle that Rosalina should be able to exploit with well timed aerials and Luma strikes. Her down smash also makes ground approaches just as difficult because of how fast it comes out and its end lag, Pac-man is limited in punish options for the move. It would be unwinnable if she was able to approach effectively, but that is hard from my personal experiences playing against Rosalina.
 

BSP

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Rosalina definitely has an advantage against Pac-man, Pac-man mains often have heated discussion on how much of an advantage that actually is. Personally I am in the 65:35 range for this fight.

Rosalina is a wall that Pac-man has to be meticulous and careful to break. Gravity pull is part of that, but the larger part is Luma. Pac-man is very susceptible to Luma counter attacks excluding fairs and crossups that keep us away from Luma. Luma also can block attacks allowing a hitstun free Rosalina able to counter attack. Her aerials beat Pac-man's both in range and disjoints. She is able to counter approaches very easily, and Luma makes it so we are basically without our grab normally. At the same time, Rosalina is unable to really get after Pac-man because of his zoning tools. So it becomes a bit of a stalemate in neutral.
This was well put. Let me piggyback off of it.

Because of this stalemate, I think we should consider the option of Pac-Man going for timeouts. I know that Abadango got timed out vs. Dabuz, but Abadango either didn't know or didn't bother with using side B on GP to heal himself.

Rosalina can't really apply pressure from long range, and if she launches Luma towards Pac-Man, he can separate them with the hydrant. On the flip side, Pac-Man can't throw fruit how he likes because of GP, and Rosalina's entire moveset outranges his. A brute force rush on his side isn't the smartest option either.

I think the solution for Pac-Man is the set up a trampoline or hydrant in center stage and then proceed to charge keys.

If Rosalina GP's the hydrant, Pac-Man should heal himself and set it up again. If she launches it, that gives Pac-Man something to punish. If she jumps over it, it gives him a window to do something, even though Rosalina still has superior range in most cases.

Once a key is obtained, Pac-Man should start Fair launching hydrants at Rosalina while following them. Since Luma can't block, the safest way for Rosalina to deal with the hydrants is to GP them, but Pac-Man can heal himself if she does that, and he can reset the hydrant quickly. If she rolls or sidesteps, Luma should still get hit, and if she jumps, Pac-Man can get some pressure in.

I want to see this strategy applied at high level because I think it'll work unless Rosalina goes Aggro in the MU. In that case, GP becomes less of a factor since she'll be trying to do things other than focusing on GP'ing whatever Pac-Man throws out. However, Rosalina has better normals, simple as that.

This is 60:40 Rosalina's favor at least just because of how much effort Pac-Man has to put in order to not get demolished in the MU. 65:35 is probably more like it.



I think I summarized better here:

This could redefine the MU, and yes, it also works in the air. Even though we knew GP lets us spam hydrant, it was a zero sum game because we didn't get anything off of it. Now, the tables have turned. We get a free heal and we can set it up again.

What does this mean?

Spam hydrant like a crazy person, and go from there:

If you want to go on the defensive:

Get behind the hydrant and start charging to key.

When you have a key ready, any mid range "miss" of GP means you heal 2% with pretty much no punishable lag. Rosalina is going to prefer GP than shield because Key kills Luma pretty well. If she shields, I would chuck the key and start over because Luma is more than likely going to get hit.

If she rushes in and launches the hydrant, punish her for that, or launch it at her if she doesn't launch it in 1 hit.

Throw in a trampoline (can't be GP'd) to cover rolls and you've got Pac-Land all set.

If you want to go aggro:

Launch it at them with a fair and follow it. If Rosalina GPs, heal yourself and set up again. If she does anything besides GP, Luma should get smacked. 1/4 of Luma's HP gone right there, assuming you didn't just KO it, and you're following right behind. If you want to be aggro with you fruits, use the ones you can follow quickly behind preferably, so that if she GPs, you heal, and if she doesn't, Luma gets hit. Keys follow the same rules as in the defensive strategy.


This doesn't mitigate that fact that R&L can invalidate Pac's moveset though and force dangerous approaches.
I agree with most of what you said. How does she force Pac-Man to approach though?
 
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dragontamer

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PacMan is forced to play a close-quarters game against Rosalina / Luma due to Gravitational Pull.

A lot of PacMan's safe / interesting offensive setups require us to throw Melon or to setup a bouncing Hydrant to cover our rushdown. However, Rosalina easily GPs the projectile and recovers in time to wall out PacMan.

Pacman's next rushdown options are either grounded assaults or air assaults. In general, PacMan players like taking advantage of our extremely good Fair. Unfortunately, Rosalina (not even Luma mind you, Rosalina herself) seems to have a superior air game, with Fair and Nair covering both "below" and "above" approaches against Rosalina. A good Rosalina player will wall out PacMan, despite PacMan's above-average Fair option. The matchup in the sky is clearly in Rosalina's favor.

On the ground, PacMan's options are limited to rushdown without projectile coverage. Not the same as smacking Rosalina with a quick Strawberry / Orange mind you. I'm talking about Galaxian / Melon setups that serves as a basis of safe rushdown options for PacMan. As long as Luma is still on stage, I feel like PacMan is at a major disadvantage on the ground.

PacMan has extreme difficulty KOing enemies in general. PacMan's main KO options rely on gimps (usually through orange, offstage Fairs, or offstage Nairs) and his projectiles (Apple on short stages like Halberd, Key otherwise for a side-KO). Rosalina cannot be gimped, because her up-B has stupendous range and flexibility coming back. KOing Rosalina with an Apple is probably our best bet, due to Rosalina's lightness, but a good counter-pick from Rosalina can mitigate sky-KOs. Charging up all the way to Key for the KO threat at 140%+ is slow and meticulous, but its unfortunately one of our best options. Otherwise, Apple spam can be done much faster, but still is meticulous for us to constantly be charging projectiles.

PacMan will realistically be KOing Rosalina around 150%+, despite her lightness. PacMan's KO will rely on Nair and Bair (160% to 180% KOs from centerstage), especially if the Rosalina player respects the Hydrant, Apple and Key. Other than that, PacMan's FSmash is 18 frames, DSmash is 18 frames, and USmash is 16 frames (13 if you count the weak hitbox). All are too slow for a real KO attempt against a careful player... especially a zoning / walling one like Rosalina.

Our tilts play an important job in the neutral game, but only lob Rosalina into the air. PacMan's "combo" game is very loose, so Rosalina has ample time to cover PacMan's followups and wall him out with Fairs or Nairs. PacMan lacks any tools to capitalize upon his tilts against Rosalina.

As our primary KOing option (aka: gimps) is negated in this matchup, and as our projectile game is negated (grossly affecting our rushdown and zoning game), this is PacMan's nightmare matchup. There is a consensus on the PacMan forums that Rosalina is our worst matchup.

With that said, PacMan's rushdown game isn't terrible. We clearly have a speed advantage against Rosalina. But when jump-ins are easily punished by Rosalina's superior anti-air options (OOS USmash, preemptive Fairs and Nairs that "wall" PacMan out)... and this is without Luma mind you... PacMan just doesn't really have a good matchup here. Again, our grounded assault game is adequate, but not something we like to rely on without complicated projectile coverage.

Fortunately, PacMan seems to keep Luma off the stage pretty well. Bouncing Hydrant often pushes Luma all the way off and has high base-knockback. Rosalina spamming gravity pull will allow PacMan to drop far more hydrants in this matchup than normal. Ditto with Rosalina using GP that destroys our fruit. So our projectile spam is denser and more spammy against a Rosalina player, and Luma really gets the short end of the stick here.

Nonetheless, Rosalina does not need Luma's assistance to win against PacMan. Fundamental hitboxes alone are enough to wall out PacMan's gimped Melon-less / Galaxian-less / Hydrant-less grounded rushdown game... and that is unfortunately PacMan's best option. This nightmare matchup is 60:40 in Rosalina's favor if PacMan can manage to keep Luma off the field and sticks to where PacMan is strongest.

Otherwise, its definitely on Rosalina's favor beyond even that. PacMan may be one of the best characters at KOing Luma in this game, but it doesn't change the fundamental problem. Rosalina herself is a nightmare for PacMan to face.

---------------

IMO, PacMan wants to pick short stages like Halberd vs Rosalina, and then focus on Apple, USmash, and UAir to KO her.
 
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BSP

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A lot of PacMan's safe / interesting offensive setups require us to throw Melon or to setup a bouncing Hydrant to cover our rushdown. However, Rosalina easily GPs the projectile and recovers in time to wall out PacMan.
Pac-Man can heal himself whenever she does this though. She'll take the BF though if you use BF, but hydrant can be reset right after.
 

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Rosalina is a hard counter to pac man the things that make him strong vs other characters Rosalina doesn't care about.
 

dragontamer

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Pac-Man can heal himself whenever she does this though. She'll take the BF though if you use BF, but hydrant can be reset right after.
True, but I haven't played a Rosalina player though since that tech was discovered. So I can only speak for my own experience. I can't imagine that the trick changes things too much, 2% healing is pretty tiny in the great scheme of things.
 
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