Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

[Macchiato]

If you've followed the discussion you'd already know what points I've made. Nothing has changed sine the matches were played.

Yew said she came edgeguard, and in our matches I edgeguarded yew like everytime. Also rosalina can't do anything because her recovery has no Hitbox and is completely open to hits
Yew said that rosalina would kill her super fast, yew always killed me at like 130%. I killed yew at like 60%.
Yew said that zelda doesn't have any threats at all, umm Farore's wind, lightning kicks, and dash attack. Nuff said
Yew said that it was hard to get a kill with zelda, no it's really not. A bad mistake, Farore's wind. Fsmash has lots of range. Rosie is easily gimped by her

 

[Latte]

After re-reading the discussion, I have nothing to add to what @ Macchiato and @S.F.L.R_9 have already said. In my experience, this MU is slightly in Zelda's favor, and the posts made by Macchiato and S.F.L.R_9 have done nothing but solidify my opinion.

EDIT: I'd like to note that I have also re-read the arguments in the posts claiming the MU is in Rosalina's favor, and I'm not convinced that's the case.

None of this is new information, but to keep with the format, I will present pros for both characters before delivering my verdict.

Pros

• Luma is a non-issue; I don't even have to try to kill Luma, he just gets killed by my dash attacks and din's.
• Once Luma is gone, Rosalina is left with no projectiles, so we can spam Din's to force an approach.
• Rosalina's recovery can easily be gimped by dtilt.
• Rosalina is tall, making fairs and bairs easy to land. Hell, even short hop nairs can easily hit Rosalina.
• Rosalina is extremely light and Zelda specializes in early kills, meaning Rosalina will be dying at very, very low percents from lightning kicks and elevators.

Pros

• Rosalina is generally faster
• Rosalina's moves generally have more range

40 - 60​

Considering the numeric rating system in play and the surplus of Zelda players here, Zelda is going to be officially marked as the advantageous one no matter what I have to say.

From my experience, Zelda players are the last people you have to worry about that with. We're very harsh honest about her shortcomings, and are used to perfectly fine with not having the upper hand in an MU.

 

[Macchiato]

From my experience, Zelda players are the last people you have to worry about that with. We're very harsh honest about her shortcomings, and are used to perfectly fine with not having the upper hand in an MU.

Except me, like I'm known as the SSS tier Zelda optimist

 

[ChikoLad]

>Rosalina
>Forced to approach

You have not played a half decent Rosalina player if that's what you think.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yew said she came edgeguard, and in our matches I edgeguarded yew like everytime. Also rosalina can't do anything because her recovery has no Hitbox and is completely open to hits
Yew said that rosalina would kill her super fast, yew always killed me at like 130%. I killed yew at like 60%.
Yew said that zelda doesn't have any threats at all, umm Farore's wind, lightning kicks, and dash attack. Nuff said
Yew said that it was hard to get a kill with zelda, no it's really not. A bad mistake, Farore's wind. Fsmash has lots of range. Rosie is easily gimped by her

I can't really understand what you're saying. But it'd be nice if yoy didn't lie about the matches. If you look at what I said you're even lying about. So how bout you go somewhere else with your lies? You should really stop.

@ L Latte you're missing a lot of tjings for Rosalina like her KO ability. Your write up is just as one sided as the other Zelda's. Also I didn't mention it before but Zelda is bad when she's above people and Rosalina's uairs are a nightmare for her.

 

[Macchiato]

I can't really understand what you're saying. But it'd be nice if yoy didn't lie about the matches. If you look at what I said you're even lying about. So how bout you go somewhere else with your lies? You should really stop.

@ L Latte you're missing a lot of tjings for Rosalina like her KO ability. Your write up is just as one sided as the other Zelda's. Also I didn't mention it before but Zelda is bad when she's above people and Rosalina's uairs are a nightmare for her.

Gorl, if yew rewatch our matches yew will see yew recovering and me killing yew with dtilt to fsmash trying. Yew know I actually did all this like if yew saved replays, watch them

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Gorl, if yew rewatch our matches yew will see yew recovering and me killing yew with dtilt to fsmash trying. Yew know I actually did all this like if yew saved replays, watch them

Can you spell you like a normal person and not like a.......Anyways I didn't save the replays not much of a point in going over those matches.

 

[Latte]

>Rosalina
>Forced to approach

You have not played a half decent Rosalina player if that's what you think.

I can't argue with that; perhaps I haven't. I don't go to tournaments, so I'm basing much of this on Roll Glory (lol) matches.

I can't really understand what you're saying. But it'd be nice if yoy didn't lie about the matches. If you look at what I said you're even lying about. So how bout you go somewhere else with your lies? You should really stop.

@ L Latte you're missing a lot of tjings for Rosalina like her KO ability. Your write up is just as one sided as the other Zelda's. Also I didn't mention it before but Zelda is bad when she's above people and Rosalina's uairs are a nightmare for her.

Zelda doesn't ever have to go above Rosalina, so I don't think her Uairs are a huge issue. I will admit I'm not entirely sure how well Rosalina KOs people; whenever I fight a Rosalina, I often live well above 120%.

Calling someone a liar is a big deal. Even if Macchiato was lying--which I doubt, due to even you admitting that he won by an overwhelming margin in most of the matches--his points aren't automatically invalid. In fact, many of them match up with what other people have said about this MU.

EDIT:

Can you spell you like a normal person and not like a........

Please do not drive this thread in that direction.

 

[Cenizas]

>Rosalina
>Forced to approach

You have not played a half decent Rosalina player if that's what you think.

Well, w/o Luma, you're w/o your only means of attacking from afar, so yes, you are forced to approach. Unless, a "half-decent Rosalina" as you call it would do the only seemingly possible other option, running away until you wait out the 13 seconds or so when Luma comes back, which is futile even against someone with such poor mobility as Zelda who can snipe with Din's and Phantom.

And if you're gonna pull the GPull card, we can easily release an early phantom or stop Din's and punish you with Farore's while you're still stuck in the GPull animation. Faking out Rosalina will be even easier if we bring customs like the faster Din's Flare or the auto-max distance Phantom Breaker who can break your shield if you try and mix it up. This is all speculation as I've never playing offline with a Rosalina main.

Also, don't dish out insults to other people's ideas if you're not even gonna come up with an explanation or proof to support your own opinions.

Can someone put me down as 60:40 pro Zelda btw?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Next match up please Zelda talk has past it's course is boring and learning the Zelda MU is like pissing in the wind.

 

[Macchiato]

Next match up please Zelda talk has past it's course is boring and learning the Zelda MU is like pissing in the wind.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Can someone put me down as 60:40 pro Zelda btw?

This is in Zelda's favor, right? If so, I'll be putting you down as 40:60.

 

[Cenizas]

This is in Zelda's favor, right? If so, I'll be putting you down as 40:60.

Yes, thank you!

 

[BJN39]

Well, I suppose in a few hours discussion period will be closed for Zelda. Thank you, @ Mario & Sonic Guy for inviting us to the discussion of this MU, and bearing with us during some more heated talk. ^ ^

I would like to put down my ratio as 55:45 Rosalina's favor. Most talking points have already been covered, so I hope you don't mind me not going in depth. Basically to me, it seems 40:60 when Luma is there and gets some work done, and even (Or maybe even slightly favoring Zelda) when Luma is gone, which Zelda obviously has some pretty good tools for extricating it from the battle.

Good luck with continuing your MU thread. Duly noted, we were actually probably gonna start Rosalina discussion in like, a week or less, ^^' so expect to be notified here if/when we do!

 

[Macchiato]

Good luck with continuing your MU thread. Duly noted, we were actually probably gonna start Rosalina discussion in like, a week or less, ^^' so expect to be notified here if/when we do!

JigglyZelda said we're just gonna take data from this.

 

[BJN39]

JigglyZelda said we're just gonna take data from this.

I know, well sort of knew...

But just in case we had discussion anyways, I though I should let them know that we might be sending them an invitation of our own~

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ BJN39 : Zelda's discussion period ends at the end of 2/1, so there's still one more day of analyzing the Rosalina vs. Zelda match-up. In terms of your two ratio inputs, which one are you sticking with?

 

[BJN39]

@ BJN39 : Zelda's discussion period ends at the end of 2/1, so there's still one more day of analyzing the Rosalina vs. Zelda match-up. In terms of your two ratio inputs, which one are you sticking with?

Oop my B on the day miscount. ^^'

The number I went with was 55:45 Rosalina's slight advantage.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yes since Rosie discussion happened to be going on a week ahead of our scheduled Rosie discussion I do plan to take information from here. Since in a way this was our week of discussion because Yoshi never showed up lol.

 

[evmaxy54]

Welp I didn't expect my sistren to be so optimistic about this MU :O

I personally don't know the MU too much, but I feel like this is just slightly in Rosa's favour. She has the speed, range & priority over us, while we have the advantage in the killing department (though Rosa ain't no slouch there either).

Edgeguarding is what Zeldawful really excels this time round & you will need to mix up your recoveries when placed in that situation. We can always go for the LKs if the situation arises & that'll most likely take a stock if sweetspotted, Nair to rack up a few more % if it's too awkward angle to LK with (but you shouldn't die from it), & we've got Phantom & Dtilt for when you go for the ledge (the former will block the ledge when you Up-B & the latter will rack up % & could potentially be followed into a Fair).
But the move you should be most careful about is our Dair. That will screw you over if you're not careful, even if we get the sourspot. The hitbox stays out for 10 frames so it really isn't hard at all to hit with either.
If we're getting edgeguarded, the only place we can really go to is the ledge since FW has a good amount of landing lag & you can just punish it with an aerial of your choice because Zeldawful doesn't have a hitbox when she grabs the ledge. Alternatively, you can just stand close to the ledge & you've got her trapped since you pretty much have an answer for everything that she can do from there.

I feel like Rosa should pick smaller stages like BF so there is less space for Zeldawful to spam Dins, because that move will be Zelda's most important move in this MU (which is quite hilarious considering how dreadful that move is) for obvious reasons.
Ban: FD, T&C, & CS
CP: BF, Halberd (despite the 2nd transformation giving a lot of space to Zelda, the lower blast zones benefits you much more than it does for Zelda), Delfino (not too sure about this, but this does have an awfully low top blast zone at times, plus I feel the ledges kinda screw Zelda over)

55-45 to Rosa

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There's still one more day of analyzing Zelda, but I just want to let everyone know that I've modified how I'll be inputting the ratio averages.

Now, all decimal value averages that I get will be rounded to the nearest integer, unless the tenths value of the decimal is .5 (Ex.: 55.5:44.5). You will notice this change the next time you read the primary post.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

60-40 rosa favour

 

[icraq]

This is probably the best discussion we've had on the matchup thread I've seen. I wish more boards would participate like Zelda's boards have. It's typically just been everyone agreeing with each other that Rosa is the best thing ever.

Funny no one has mentioned you can DI on reaction out of Farore's Wind 60% kill combo. And you can smash di out of her fsmash.. I think Zelda's a great character but I don't see a lot of long term development in her meta. Also Rosa's lingering dair hitbox beats out her UpB's ledge snap if she's going for the ledge, I think over time that will become more easily exploitable. It's just so rare to get a lot of Zelda practice.

I'd love to see someone like dabuz and nairo discuss the rosa vs zelda MU a bit. If I get a chance I'd like to fight you @ Macchiato if you have the ability to upload videos, would be good to analyze them and cooperate as a group rather than interact as if this is a pissing contest. Edit: Feel free to add me, my nnid is listed, I'll get back to you later

 

[JigglyZelda003]

sometimes you fall out if fsmash just because Sakuratena says so. Honestly it only works a tad better on Rosie cause she's big.

 

[BJN39]

This is probably the best discussion we've had on the matchup thread I've seen. I wish more boards would participate like Zelda's boards have. It's typically just been everyone agreeing with each other that Rosa is the best thing ever.

Funny no one has mentioned you can DI on reaction out of Farore's Wind 60% kill combo. And you can smash di out of her fsmash.. I think Zelda's a great character but I don't see a lot of long term development in her meta. Also Rosa's lingering dair hitbox beats out her UpB's ledge snap if she's going for the ledge, I think over time that will become more easily exploitable. It's just so rare to get a lot of Zelda practice.

I'd love to see someone like dabuz and nairo discuss the rosa vs zelda MU a bit. If I get a chance I'd like to fight you @ Macchiato if you have the ability to upload videos, would be good to analyze them and cooperate as a group rather than interact as if this is a pissing contest. Edit: Feel free to add me, my nnid is listed, I'll get back to you later

I just wanted to comment that in the same light that anyone could DI FW1 sideways to attempt an escape, I believe by the time players get consistent at doing so, Zeldas will have also been (hopefully) working on read DI of their own, allowing then to hit Rosalina even if she DIs it by angling FW up and angled to match her DI.

Though, I think it'll be quite a while before either common DI of FW1 or Zelda reaction angling will become the norm. In the mean time, Zeldas are at least able to angle it down on reaction to avoid a big punish on whiff by a correct DI.

Also I'm as well surprised no Zelda (Including me until icraq's post jogged my memory.) remembered the ol' Zelds Dtilt ledge-snap interrupter. (As seen in the infamous Nairo vs Keitaro vid.) it's quick, It has a decent hit duration, and can hit below the edge and interrupt Rosalina's ledge-snap quite consistently.

 

[ChikoLad]

Well, w/o Luma, you're w/o your only means of attacking from afar, so yes, you are forced to approach. Unless, a "half-decent Rosalina" as you call it would do the only seemingly possible other option, running away until you wait out the 13 seconds or so when Luma comes back, which is futile even against someone with such poor mobility as Zelda who can snipe with Din's and Phantom.

And if you're gonna pull the GPull card, we can easily release an early phantom or stop Din's and punish you with Farore's while you're still stuck in the GPull animation. Faking out Rosalina will be even easier if we bring customs like the faster Din's Flare or the auto-max distance Phantom Breaker who can break your shield if you try and mix it up. This is all speculation as I've never playing offline with a Rosalina main.

Also, don't dish out insults to other people's ideas if you're not even gonna come up with an explanation or proof to support your own opinions.

Can someone put me down as 60:40 pro Zelda btw?

Phantom and Din's Fire are easy to dodge, so no, they do not force an approach. They are also punishable, so if Rosalina did CHOOSE to approach, that's a perfect opportunity for her to grab Zelda, and draw out the waiting period for Luma to come back.

Rosalina's dodging ability is just top notch in general too, and with greater mobility than Zelda, Zelda can't really catch a Rosalina who is dead focused on evasion.

Not that Rosalina would even need to do that, because going toe to toe with Zelda is not a problem anyway. Plus, a good Rosalina player would not let Luma get taken out so early.

And I didn't insult anyone, I made a statement that I genuinely believe. A lot of points being made like "Rosalina is forced to approach" or "Luma does not exist in the MU" are only true of a novice Rosalina, and generally assume she isn't playing with vigilance.

 

[Macchiato]

This is probably the best discussion we've had on the matchup thread I've seen. I wish more boards would participate like Zelda's boards have. It's typically just been everyone agreeing with each other that Rosa is the best thing ever.

Funny no one has mentioned you can DI on reaction out of Farore's Wind 60% kill combo. And you can smash di out of her fsmash.. I think Zelda's a great character but I don't see a lot of long term development in her meta. Also Rosa's lingering dair hitbox beats out her UpB's ledge snap if she's going for the ledge, I think over time that will become more easily exploitable. It's just so rare to get a lot of Zelda practice.

I'd love to see someone like dabuz and nairo discuss the rosa vs zelda MU a bit. If I get a chance I'd like to fight you @ Macchiato if you have the ability to upload videos, would be good to analyze them and cooperate as a group rather than interact as if this is a pissing contest. Edit: Feel free to add me, my nnid is listed, I'll get back to you later

@ icraq Okay just tell me whenever yew can play and I'll probably be able to play yew. Right now is a great time tho

 

[UtopianRay]

I just finish a very close match against a very good Zelda player ON THE 3DS. The player did very really well getting rid of Luma so easily with many of her moves. As I play with Rosalina, I was forced to play defensive or go offensive at Zelda every time she gets rid of Luma. My first death was by the very tricky Up+B by Zelda came unexpectedly. I manage to get at least a kill with F+Smash and I'm at 20%. This was when I keep losing Luma a lot more than I expected it will happen. I barely can do a punish on her Side+B or Down+B. But most of time, Zelda gave me space whenever Luma was taken out and spam most of her special moves including Up+B so I could just wait and avoid most of the attacks until I got Luma back. Both of us were at over 100% but I manage to kill Zelda with the infamous Up+Air (The player ragequited afterwards) After the match, I had second thoughts about Zelda and how much is a threat to Rosalina. For my score, I give 60:40 as the victory for Zelda

 

[Ladyspiker]

My rating is 55:45 (in Rosalina's favor).

Funnily enough, I came into this thread expecting Zelda to be underestimated, so I'm glad it's been shown Zelda can hold her own in this match. I still think Rosalina has a slight advantage for most of the reasons @ ChikoLad listed just a few posts above. If one thing has been proven though, it's that Rosalina must play this match very carefully and never leave her or Luma open to an attack.

PS: Coming from a lover of both Zelda/Rosalina

 

[ChikoLad]

PS: Coming from a lover of both Zelda/Rosalina

Oh yeah, guess I should clarify that I don't hate Zelda or anything myself. In fact, I bought one of the last Zelda Amiibos in my country just there on Monday (and I also bought Sheik on Friday). As a character, I really like Zelda (well, certain iterations, the others I don't hate, just don't particularly care for or haven't experienced yet). She is my least favourite character to play as in Smash, but it's not because I think she is terrible, I just find her underwhelming to use personally (except for the light kicks, those are great).

 

[SBphiloz4]

Alrighty, time to actually contribute to this. Will be split up in multiple parts about key parts of the MU IMO.

1. On-stage control

Having control of the stage is important for all characters, but it applies especially for Rosalina and Zelda. Unfortunately for Zelda, Rosalina has the edge in this aspect due to the sheer fact that Luma is there. In general, Rosalina has a great ground game, whether it is from Ftilt, to Fsmash and Dsmash, while also getting good conversions on a grab. Luma makes Zelda's approach hard to a certain extent. However, as noted before, Luma is relatively easy to rid for Zelda compared to other characters, all because Rosalina is indeed using Luma extensively, and that Zelda has plenty of tools to bring it out of commission for a while, such as dash attack and to a lesser extent, Din's. When Luma is gone, the ground game is mostly even, so it's up to the individual player to see who can maintain stage control better. Dtilt and Nayru's Love will be seen most with Zelda in this situation, and to a lesser extent, her projectiles, so Rosalina has to be wary of her approach, if she needs to.

2. Air game

This is where Rosalina should capitalize the most. Comboing Zelda is relatively easy compared to others due to her limited air options. Nair and Fair cover so much of Zelda's ability to get in, while Dthrow Uair strings aren't rare either. Worse of all, Uair can kill extremely early, but this can be mitigated by removing Luma (as iirc, it's Luma's Uair hit that can kill early). Most of Zelda's air options are kill options, and as Rosalina is a big target, might be easier than a Rosalina player can expect. But this is where Rosalina HAS to do most of her damage, and should rightfully do so.

3. Platforms and Ledges

It's no surprise that both characters love platforms, but this again goes to Rosalina's favour. Uair, Nair and Fair greatly appreciate some extra platforms to help lock down the opponent and put them in a bad situation. Zelda can attempt to use the platforms to do Farore's Wind ledge cancel shenanigans or Uair stuff, but this generally helps Rosalina a LOT more. As for ledge options, should Rosalina be hanging on the ledge, Zelda doesn't have too many options to punish her get-up options. This cannot be said the same for the opposite situation, however, as Luma already covers one possible get-up option, and Rosalina in general does very well in punishing an opponent should he/she gets back on stage predictably with Nair, Fair, Dsmash and grabs.

4. Off Stage Game

This is where Zelda should be excelling, should she had met the requirements to get to this point of the game in the first place. People here seem to underestimate Zelda's edgeguard game, but for a character who may not be ranked very high at the moment, Zelda has GREAT edgeguard tools. Dtilt essentially guards the stage's ledges, as even a well-timed UpB from Rosalina may still get her hit by the move. Rosalina is a big target too, so Lightning Kicks, Dair and Uair are still very easy for Zelda to land. And don't be surprised if Zelda decides to commit offstage to hit you; Farore's Wind easily gets you back on stage after she attempts to kick you, putting Rosalina's subpar recovery on her toes. For Rosalina, edgeguarding Zelda is a bit too tricky, especially when she can actually retaliate big time WHILE she's recovering, so it's best to let her get back on the ledge/stage and punish her there.

5. Other Notes
- Both characters want to grab each other to gain momentum with grab combos. Keep your shield up and prepare to roll/spot-dodge when needed
- Whoever approaches is not favoured in the MU.
- USmash, Fair, Nair, Uair, Dash Attack and Luma are Rosalina's best options (I think) here
- Uair and Fsmash from Rosalina can kill relatively early
- Zelda's OoS UpB is pretty good in this MU, and can kill really early due to Rosalina's weight. Rosalina players have to be wary of this to maintain momentum.
- Since Zelda is mostly playing catchup in this MU, getting the early kills is key to take momentum. Well-timed kicks and Farore's is key.
- Rosalina stole our Dsmash and Fsmash. ccccc

Stages
Rosalina - Duck Hunt, Halberd, Lylat Cruise
Zelda - Final Destination, Delfino Plaza
Neutral - Battlefield, Smashville

Key points to the MU
: Maintain stage control, play a solid air game, use Luma efficiently without getting it killed.
: Kill Luma ASAP, edgeguard efficiently, net early KOs.

Overall
6: 4

And you guys thought I was a troll smh. :^)

 

[Macchiato]

Ahhhh this was a fun MU Discussion. @ Mario & Sonic Guy Thank yew for having me. See ya when yew gorls get to ike

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Well, Zelda's discussion period has come and gone, and as such, I've added up all the ratio inputs to get the ratio average. Anyway, here's the average for Rosalina vs. Zelda.

[51:49]

Not much of an advantage for Rosalina; the match-up is almost completely even. Now, keep note that this average may be heavily debatable, so I'll just say that the match-up favors whoever is better prepared.

Anyway, I want to thank all the Zelda players who have contributed during Zelda's discussion period, and we'll be sure to do it again at a later date.

With that said, it's now time to analyze Rosalina's match-up against the dog and duck duo, Duck Hunt.

 

[Macchiato]

@ JigglyZelda003 we finished the MU time to take the data

 

[mario123007]

Well, Zelda's discussion period has come and gone, and as such, I've added up all the ratio inputs to get the ratio average. Anyway, here's the average for Rosalina vs. Zelda.

[51:49]

Not much of an advantage for Rosalina; the match-up is almost completely even. Now, keep note that this average may be heavily debatable, so I'll just say that the match-up favors whoever is better prepared.

Anyway, I want to thank all the Zelda players who have contributed during Zelda's discussion period, and we'll be sure to do it again at a later date.

With that said, it's now time to analyze Rosalina's match-up against the dog and duck duo, Duck Hunt.

Most of you might not remember me or know who I am. But I just want to say: I AM BACK. My college entrance exam is finally over!!!!!! What a long "Internet Ban" for me!
Now I feel a bit "Of the track" and feels like I just had missed an important event.
Anyway............. since this isn't the thread that I can talk a lot about myself, I get straight to the MU.
I want to analyze this match up a more efficiant way:

Duck Hunt
Not knowing much about how what king of KO combo can a pro use with this character, I say Duck Hunt has more advantage in the long run since they have a lot of annoying projectiles like their N-special and side-special.
Rosalina & Luma
I just want to say this : Don't abuse the use of GP. Also keep close with Luma, it may take a lot of damage and when you lost your Luma, you will have a hard time against Duck Hunt.

I give 50:50

Short reviews about past Match-ups(Please, let me since I had a long time out of this thread.)

Geez, even though I don't like Wario. He sure does have an upper hand.
Totally dislike this character, but still Rosalina will also have a hard time against him.
I don't know, since Dr.Mario had more powerful attacks than Mario, Rosalina needs to watch out when Dr,Mario use heavy attacks.
Even though Links arrows,bombs, and boomerangs might be annoying. Dealing with Link won't be that hard.
I really want to give a ratio on this MU.......man, didn't expect that you will put his MU that soon @ Mario & Sonic Guy
I feel a bit weird with this MU's results. I actually think Rosalina has a huge advantage.

 

[Space Mom Jojo]

vs

As mentioned before, GP can be overused. But having it to begin with still favors our lady much more than it does Duck Hunt for its ending lag. Side B and the exploding Can are rendered ineffective at long range, where Duck Hunt would otherwise have a good advantage.

Given that Rosalina shuts down Duck Hunt's long range game, the fight has to move more close quarters. I have to point out that Star Bits is a potentially really good move for this matchup because it can reverse the can while it is in the air, and since its Luma you should be able to find safe ways to do this. Also on Star Bits, this is one of those matchups where Rosa approaching with a dash > jump > starbits combo is a really easy thing to abuse. If the bits connect, call it a free dair, bair, or nair if you've got the spacing down.

Duck Hunts smashes are an issue, due to their huge hitboxes and Rosalina's height. They can be a problem for recovering since he has enough time and range to trap your landing with any of his smash attacks. Recovering is always a bit tricky with Rosalina, but a bad landing against a good Duck Hunt can be a guaranteed stock.

Down B is mostly ineffective but not useless, however Luma tanking the bullet makes it a lot less threatening that it would be otherwise.

The air game is the most up for debate. Duck Hunt's upair easily beats Rosa's dair, I'm pretty sure. You'd be crazy to try and beat Duck Hunt's fair with your own as well, and I think bair only clashes with it. DH's bair is pretty high priority too I think. Rosa's aerials are a safe bet approaching from the air, if DH is on the ground. And of course if he's charging a smash you should know enough to stay far away until all the hitboxes are clear and punish with something safe like Luma Shot or Star Bits.

Duck Hunt is really slow and it's an easy aspect of his character to forget about. His moves are hard to beat head on, but they're easy to see coming a mile away, especially his dash attack. Shield grab that all day, and if it's getting Luma knocked off-stage in the process then simply separate and keep Luma hopping when he's not doing anything else (This goes for most matchups too, very under-utilized tactic)

DH has a lot of beginner's traps, as does Rosalina. The difference is that Rosalina has the OPTION of shutting down DH, and still has plenty of tools to abuse while Duck Hunt struggles to find an approach without a can or side B. Especially if you're good at using GP while moving in the air to keep yourself mobile. Duck Hunt has no special ability to screw Luma over most other characters, can't win in an up-close situation unless Luma is out of the picture, and can only control the air if Rosalina isn't already there. Duck Hunt would be foolish to try to play the air game consistently instead of sticking to the ground where he inevitably belongs. Rosalina has all the options, and only a few of the challenges. I don't think this one is hard for her. I would say 65:35 .

 

[WispBae]

...well then...

Invited to talk about the doggy MU.

I guess I'll start by saying this MU is just a giant camp fest. A painful war of attrition, attempting to get the percent lead on both sides. Neither side doesn't really need to approach, and can just focus on zoning.

...not really important but I started a RosaLuma main and switched to doggy x3 odd coincedence.

Can: A moving can is very easily Pulled, though when left on the ground, it is then just a trap, or extra insurance to stop approaches. If you really want the pull, you'd have to approach (which neither side would do). Only cans that are sent very fast (via d-tilt, f-tilt or bair) can catch Rosa if they are not paying attention. You could also send out Luma to "disable" a can, but you risk free damage o Luma.

Clay Pigeon: A trickier option, the Clay actually can't be pulled once detonation has begun (being sht from the foreground). Although, Rosa can either pull (getting it before it's shot) or know about the risk and fade back a bit (less desirable, since both players want to control the ground). A handy lil tip about Clay is if a Can and Clay are out at the same time, the zapper will always go for the clay first, then the can. Anyways, reckless Rosas are pivot Clayed, which leads to a free follow up or setting up more traps.

Wild Gunmen: Not as simple as previously mentioned, it's actually quite hard to Pull thier shots, since they are delayed, each gunmen has it's own timing and range, and leave doggy open for most options. The shots are also piercing, which means they go through Luma and hit Rosa. They can also go through cans, giving doggy a way to approach. Rosa's best option is to pull, jump or shield. Pulling will leave her open to a grab though, jumping leads doggy to mutiple options and a dijointed fair, and shield can protect you but punt Luma offstage. So against a smart Rosa, gunmen will be the biggest issue, especially considering how easy it is to pivot them. Although, gunmen only have 5% health, so an aggressive Rosa should have no problem with all of them except the Coat gunmen (I wrote a guide all about gunmen, I could post it later if it helps) since he fires almost immeditely.

Recoveries are very similar for the both of them. Just Rosa's is faster and farther, but harder to control. Doggy is susceptible to easy stage spikes when recovering.

Doggy is not slow, the speed of both of them are pretty close to each other, and jumping hieghts are pretty darn similar too (doggy may jump a tad higher, would have to test later).

On the ground, Rosa very easily wins in standard attacks, in the air though, I feel doggy may be better. With Doggy getting easy off the top KO's (up-air, can) and Rosa being so floaty, that may be an issue, though disjointed Dairs and Nars can cover Rosa.

So that's my small overview. The MU is just very campy, with two zoning characters, each of them have conuter moves for each other. It's like playing Roshambo, except with a lot more explosions and Luma sqeauls of pain. Both of them don't need to approach, and who ever does would lose the advatage (assuming both players are of equal caliber). Just really good fundamentals, don't fall for the GravPull baiting, and take advanatge of a percent lead.

50/50: Painful in both sides.

 

[9Tales]

So far in my experience Duck Hunt is one of the MUs were Gravity is such a god send.

Duck Hunt is so rarely used in an aggressive way. Duck Hunts always force you to approach, then uses some combination of their specials to limit your approach options and then make it easy for them to guess and punish the approach you make. Thanks to Gravity most of the across stage pressure form clay discs has little effect, so Rosalina has a lot of time to take a breath and make a patient approach (or sometimes even frustrate a not so patient Duck Hunt into trying to approach instead) In general both players have a lot of distance between them and are both being kind of defensive, with Rosalina being the slightly more aggressive one.

I guess I'll stack up their closer range options. IMO the only things that are troublesome are tilts, fair, and bair. Basically all the moves where the duck snaps out really fast and then pulls back in. Those moves are the safest, quickest, and most potent Luma nailing-est moves Duck Hunt has. That said with Luma you can generally out space Duck Hunt fairly well. When I first played him on 3DS I was super amazed by Duck hunt's smashes but I've become less and less impressed by them over time. Even though they can cover some impressive range they are made out of 3 tiny hitboxes areas that aren't all active at once which makes them REALLY easy to roll dodge through, or in the case of the up smash the just don't have a super wide area of effect. I just find it hard to get hit by them and moderately easy to punish since they're just begging you to roll through them.

Duck Hunt's fair and bair make the air game a little more challenging for Rosalina but only when it's both players short hopping and controlling their movement. Rosalina's moves can be spaced better but only JUST barley and they are also much longer animations. So who wins out is generally based a little more on controlling your momentum and making the read to go in with max spacing at the right time or a punish to go in on Rosalina's slower nair animation etc. However when Duck Hunt is put in the air Rosalina's up air is pro and she has free rein to juggle. Like wise when Rosalina is put in the air she is fully capable of avoiding a big juggle, you just have to be aware of projectile traps Duck Hunt sets at the ground level.

Rosalina outshine's Duck Hunt in edge guarding and pursuit KOs sooooo much. I don't know if it's the pro thing to do but the majority of Duck Hunts just try to chuck a can at you as an edge guard and it's generally pretty avoidable. And even beyond that, for the Duck Hunts that do get more creative and risk taking, I've on two occasions survived the spike hit of Duck Hunts dair by Launch Staring immediately after it connected. Albeit in both cases I was at mild, well under 100% damage but it just means you can't rely on it for early KOs. meanwhile Duck Hunt has one of the most gimp-able recovers of the whole cast. Once off the stage they're literally sitting ducks, as their up special provides no real safety and is slow enough that it's easy to track and hard to mix up.

After battling lots of Duck Hunts I'd actually say the one thing I don't feel I understand is what their KO options are. I just never see Duck Hunt landing KOs early, they always have to build you to pretty high damage. When Duck Hunt wins it's because he repetitively pressured her into traps and bad approaches. And Duck Hunt has a slightly harder time with that thanks to Gravity. Meanwhile Rosalina's juggling, more potent smashes, and way better off stage game just add up in her favor a lot.

65:35

Duck Hunt is still reeeeally frustrating to play against though

 

[FullMoon]

Hello ladies of the cosmos, the Greninja boards are going to discuss the Rosalina MU now that Apex is over and we would appreciate any sort of input: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...-rosalina-olimar-sonic-2-2-2-9.369356/page-10

Just don't be shy to approach us, I don't think sending Luma to talk would be very productive.

 

[Spirst]

As said, the gunmen shots have transcendent priority. That means Luma isn't tanking anything since it's going through him and hitting Rosalina anyway. Additionally, for gravitational pull, gunmen shots can't be pulled at all. You either have to dodge it or shield.

DH's fair and bair are true disjoints with fair having an active hitbox on frame 4. Rosalina won't really be challenging DH in the air unless she's above or below him. This also makes it harder to space with Luma properly. Additionally, with 3 projectiles that aren't hard to set up, I don't see gravitational pull being a 'godsend' like it would be vs, say, Pacman. The Can can be shot anytime the control stick is in neutral positioning. This means that DH is able to pop the Can as he's foxtrotting/shorthopping/tilting/using aerials/shielding/grabbing (throwing into a Can is a KO setup)/using the gunmen which is a huge mobility/pressure advantage that Rosalina can't count on GP to neutralize all the time. DH has like no real commitment and in the Rosalinas I've faced, I often find myself forcing gravitational pull to make her uncomfortable while I just can just keep chucking out as many projectiles as I want. Given Rosalina's tall hurtbox, clay pigeon will wreck her if she doesn't evade/Pull and if she's constantly relying on the latter, she's losing the positional/pressure battle.

Funny how it's mentioned that Duck Hunt is seldom used in aggressive play. Vs Rosalina, I'd advise for DH to be more aggressive and use his tools for conditioning and finding openings rather than camping and zoning. I don't even think DH is a great camping character in the first place though that's a discussion for another time. But yeah, vs Rosalina, neither side will reap a whole lot of benefit by playing a camping game since the other party has the tools to negate it. It should be noted that overall, Duck Hunt has better mobility specs than Rosalina in terms of airspeed/running speed and is heavier (with Rosalina only having a slightly better walking speed). What this means is that Duck Hunt is able to get in and out faster than Rosalina is which, in a positional & pressure battle, is a great asset.

For KO setups, I will admit, DH has an issue with sealing the stock but he'll almost always have a % advantage because of how well he can build up damage. Uair will KO Rosalina in the 115% range and can be comboed into by a reverse-can (bair the Can/sourspot it). Nair is also a good OoS option given Rosalina's large hurtbox and will KO her in the 130% region from the center of FD, unraged. At the edges, it KOs even earlier and with rage, even earlier. Sweetspot bair is about the same range, maybe KOing a little earlier.

DH's smashes, unfortunately, don't always work properly but good setups can be made if used in conjunction with the Can on the ground as a threat. Especially from the ledge. The Can itself is a good KO move for people trying to recover/land and can be used to force airdodges/Pull for a Uair vertical KO. Basically, the character has some issues KOing outright but it's not crippling and given the setups/conditioning that can be done, it's mangeable especially vs Rosalina who is the 4th lightest character in the game.

Offstage, I'll give it to Rosalina, yeah. A good Duck Hunt shouldn't constantly be going offstage given the recovery issues. Customs alleviate this somewhat (fast vertical recovery/recovery with hitbox but less distance) but it's still tricky. DH can creatively add an active hitbox to his recovery though. When knocked offstage, buffer a Can with the double jump then mash B in relation to the distance DH is traveling. Rosalina's disjointed dair is a problem but with the Can right above/on DH, she'll either get hit if she doesn't space well or the detonation will explode them both which gives DH another recovery and throws Rosalina off.

Based on all this, it's definitely not 65:35 like some of you are implying. I'd wager it's 55:45 for :