1.1.4 Potentially Game Breaking/Competitively Harmful Glitches

[Xermo]

Guise, guise, gnw and jiggs can totes duck under a lot of attacks. It must be a bug; let's ban the characters.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

agreed with wintermelon
This got out of hand real quick

 

[FamilyTeam]

This thread getting closed or not, the message this is trying to put through is clear and important.
We need to make sure Nintendo knows this so they can possibly fix this, so in case you atleast read the OP, make sure to do as it tells?

 

[Pazx]

Let's be more civil.

As I first clarified in the competitive smash page on facebook, the bayonetta "bug"is not in fact a bug and is a feature. In other words, it is 100% not an accident that Bayonetta scrunches up the way she does when she is in shield. Her z axis was probably designed that way do to her slow rolls and walk speed. Other characters also have their z axis in particular ways, at particular times that causes grabs to whiff, so it's not just mewtwo and bayonetta. This is a feature of the game and if you guys don't want Nintendo to get pissed at your accusations that it's a bug I would not share it.

The other two bugs are in fact bugs though, both of which involve corrin.

I do not genuinely believe that moves hitting or missing due to hit and hurtboxes being located at different values on the Z axis is an intended feature of this game. Bayonetta having a thin frame? Intended. Bayonetta having a thin frame that is at certain times largely ungrabbable due to Z axis positioning? Probably not intended. Not good. You main DK, do you think the blind spots up close on his moves are intentional, despite a hitbox being attached to his limbs at that point?

I too would avoid calling it a bug but I definitely don't think it's intentional and I definitely think the game would be better without it, similar how to the game would be better if DK didn't have z-axis related blind spots, and Brawl would have been better if D3 didn't have extra "invulnerability" on his spotdodge due to the Z axis.

Yeah, this is really depressing.
I really hope they fix this, this isn't anything small, and Bayonetta not being able to be grabbed from behind is a glitch and there's no beating around the bush to it.
What would make Bayonetta so special that she'd need that extra feature? Why would her get that and not any other character? It's not like she lacks power or anything to justify microbuffs like that, but one has to argue how "micro" a buff like that is when this is a thing that can happen.

This is the same video that was linked in the OP, but watch that video again and let that sink in. And some people call Melee glitchy...

If I'm looking at it correctly, this video shows that it's possible to be in a position where both a standing grab and a dash grab will whiff Bayonetta. Not good, and something that should definitely be a key focus of testing at the moment. It largely changes the Shield > Attack > Grab > Shield aspect of the game, "better spacing" can only do so much when your initial position can make it more than difficult to grab her in any manner. Does anyone know if it's possible to pivot grab Bayonetta in the same situation, without running through her?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Let's be more civil.



I do not genuinely believe that moves hitting or missing due to hit and hurtboxes being located at different values on the Z axis is an intended feature of this game. Bayonetta having a thin frame? Intended. Bayonetta having a thin frame that is at certain times largely ungrabbable due to Z axis positioning? Probably not intended. Not good. You main DK, do you think the blind spots up close on his moves are intentional, despite a hitbox being attached to his limbs at that point?

I too would avoid calling it a bug but I definitely don't think it's intentional and I definitely think the game would be better without it, similar how to the game would be better if DK didn't have z-axis related blind spots, and Brawl would have been better if D3 didn't have extra "invulnerability" on his spotdodge due to the Z axis.



If I'm looking at it correctly, this video shows that it's possible to be in a position where both a standing grab and a dash grab will whiff Bayonetta. Not good, and something that should definitely be a key focus of testing at the moment. It largely changes the Shield > Attack > Grab > Shield aspect of the game, "better spacing" can only do so much when your initial position can make it more than difficult to grab her in any manner. Does anyone know if it's possible to pivot grab Bayonetta in the same situation, without running through her?

A lot of the issues with riffing a grab are being too close to her.

Pivot grab would probs get her.

 

[Shaya]

A bit of cleaning... reopening the thread for the time being.

I'll say one thing.
This is the competitive section (which differentiates from the general section on mainly two points: minimum standards for posting and specifically tournament-level related discussion).
If you're new to the scene, competitive gaming or programming paradigms... you shouldn't pretend to know just to be apart of a conversation.

While someone getting antsy over the complete misunderstanding of what the term 'bug' means was over the top, one's response assuming you're conscious of your knowledge shortfalls needn't be so immature (all it does is multiply the issue).

Design Oversights =/= Bugs.
Unintended game play =/= Bugs.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Not good, and something that should definitely be a key focus of testing at the moment.

It's what I said, basically.
Is this an issue?
Yes.
Is this intentional?
Doubt it.
In case this never gets patched, is this really ban worthy?
We'll need to study that, but I'll say no.

 

[FullMoon]

Just for further reference, the grab thing with Bayonetta only happens when she's shielding?

 

[Pazx]

Just for further reference, the grab thing with Bayonetta only happens when she's shielding?

Depends what you think of this.

https://twitter.com/MGN_GNN/status/695855852872269825

To me it looks more like the grab is going past her thin frame in this instance (ie. not Z axis related?), but it's certainly... questionable, and very similar.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Depends what you think of this.

https://twitter.com/MGN_GNN/status/695855852872269825

To me it looks more like the grab is going past her thin frame in this instance (ie. not Z axis related?), but it's certainly... questionable, and very similar.

...Basic answer is yes, then?
Kinda scary.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Depends what you think of this.

https://twitter.com/MGN_GNN/status/695855852872269825

To me it looks more like the grab is going past her thin frame in this instance (ie. not Z axis related?), but it's certainly... questionable, and very similar.

This actually happens a lot to dashgrabs, more noticeable for those with long range like MK or Falcon's, but it IS a thing.

 

[Splebel]

So when Pac-Man whiffs his dash grab when he's too close no one cares, but when other characters do it it's a glitch?

Bayonetta is not ungrabbable but she messed with how grabs work on her.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/454mqt/bayonetta_is_broken_cannot_be_dash_grabbed_by/

Corrin's stuff are legit gliches though from what I can see.

I'm not surprised as Pac-Man whiffs his dash grab on a lot of people and I wouldn't be surprised if it was everyone cause I can't think of one it doesn't whiff on.

Another glitch people who don't play Pac-Man don't care about is if Pac-Man Power Pellets to the ledge at a certain angle the game thinks he hits the floor and falls down and can't recovery if he doesn't have a second jump.

 

[GHNeko]

>mfw people still call bayo's grab thing a bug

the falco clip is just another case of grabboxes going too far.

Bayonetta is very slim. So it seems she's more privy to this ****.

 

[thehard]

Is the c-stick momentum bug "competitively harmful"??

 

[Ffamran]

There's also this thread for some other bugs: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-bros-wii-u-3ds-bug-report.406579/. It's outdated, so I don't know if any of the stuff was changed like this one which does seem concerning for tether grabs:

There's a glitch with Toon Link's tether (and probably other tethers as well) on Lylat where the tether often fails for no apparent reason, leaving him stuck in his tether animation as he falls to his death. His upbs also weren't affected by the 1.0.6. patch, and don't slope up to Lylat's ledge if it tilts as he upbs. There's also a glitch with TL's zair (and probably other zairs as well) where zairing after an airdodge causes him to still get the landing lag from an airdodge, even long after the airdodge would have finished.

There's also a glitch on Umbra Witch Tower where you can phase through it from the bottom... I think IsmaR has a video on it. Is that game-breaking? No, but it's a bug nevertheless. Also, Sonic players mentioned something about BCC or something... I don't know what that is.

As of now, the major bugs are pretty much all on Corrin. So, unless someone finds something stupid like Mega Man can inexplicably reach 999% for no reason and it's easily triggered and almost impossible to avoid meaning Mega Man's pretty much broken in a bad and sad way, there's not much else...

 

[GHNeko]

Is the c-stick momentum bug "competitively harmful"??

holy **** yes it is omg

 

[ぱみゅ]

Also, Sonic players mentioned something about BCC or something... I don't know what that is.

BSBS
Brawl Spin (Spring?) Bug Stance
I have no idea why they chose that name as it has a long context and is not entirely related to this game's bug, but in Smash 4, if Sonic lands while performing the spinning animation of either Spin Charge or Spin Dash, he loses his ability to jump out of it, that he would have if the move was initiated in the ground, or tries to jump before touching the ground.

 

[Ffamran]

BSBS
Brawl Spin (Spring?) Bug Stance
I have no idea why they chose that name as it has a long context and is not entirely related to this game's bug, but in Smash 4, if Sonic lands while performing the spinning animation of either Spin Charge or Spin Dash, he loses his ability to jump out of it, that he would have if the move was initiated in the ground, or tries to jump before touching the ground.

Yeah, that! Which also has more names...

pretty sure not too many people are aware of this but there's also a bug where if sonic initiates either his side B or down B in the air and lands and stops, the next time he uses either move while still having not left the ground he won't be able to jump out of either spin attack once he jumps up.

This also makes it so he can't use his neutral B Homing Attack again if he used the move and then used side/down special while airborne. Usually once you land on the ground with Homing Attack your allowed to use the move again but if you land and stop after using Homing attack with one of those special and then reuse the same special again and jump and attempt to do homing attack the game still thinks you haven't touched the ground yet and thus you now have no 2nd jump or ability to homing attack when you should be able to.

Here is a compiled list of ways you can activate this bug That the sonic boards has put together since release.
here is also what each abbreviation is for
SDJ/SCJ - spin dash/charge jump
SDR/SCR - spin dash/charge roll
ASC/ASD - Aerial spin charge/dash
VSDJ/VSCJ vertial spin dash/charge jump

Spoiler

• You can't double jump out of a SDJ/SCJ that derives from an aerial SD/SC, even if you release those on the ground (i.e.: start them on the air, land and then release them). You can, however, use HA, Spring, air dodge or any aerial to get out of the SDJ/SCJ animation. Also, you can still double jump if you had it available before the ASC/ASD, but only if the SDR/SCR runs off the platform;
• If you shield cancel an aerial SD (or shield cancel a charge jump from an aerial SD), the game will consider any following SDR/SCR to be a SDR/SCR from a ASD/ASC: you won't be able to jump out of it;
• if you fastfall a SDJ/SCJ and land without dodging or attacking, you'll lose the ability to double jump out of any subsequent SDJ/SCJ. No matter what you do, you'll have to jump and touch the ground again in order to regain your ability to double jump out of a SDJ/SCJ that allows double-jumping;
• I've come to the conclusion that the reason behind this SDR shenanigans is due to a certain new mechanic that I'll explain further in the next few sentences. Sonic has two stances: normal, which is, well, your usual stance and Brawl Spring Bug stance (BSBS), which is when the game makes you unable to double jump out of a SDJ/SCJ (similar to how we were unable to double jump in Brawl after a Spring jump that met certain conditions);
  • The BSBS basically means that you're standing on the ground but in a state in which the game thinks you're still in the aerial spin which came from an ASD or ASC. Therefore, any subsequent SDR/SCR you do while in this state will actually make that new, grounded SDR/SCR act like an aerial SDR/SCR (from an aerial Spin Special - SD or SC);
  • However, that is not all. Fastfalling a SDJ/SCJ and doing nothing before landing will also trigger BSBS (fastfalling from greater heights so you can actually get out of the spinning animation before landing will not trigger BSBS, though);
  • Also, if you don't have your double jump available AND enter BSBS, you won't even be able to double jump out of SD's hop;
  • To add to that, if you fastfall a SDJ/SCJ while in BSBS, you'll definitely lose your double jump (even if you had it beforehand). Yep, jumping out of a SDR/SCR off the platform or out of SD's hop is just not going to happen;
  • Some examples that end being straight up BSBS:
    • Fastfall while still spinning: SDJ/SCJ, VSDJ, SDSH;
    • ASD/ASC->land->full stop while on the ground;
    • ASD/ASC->land->SDR/SCR off the platform->land->...->full stop while on the ground (the SDR/SCR off the platform CAN be jump cancelled, but only if you had your double jump available before the ASD/ASC. However, when it touches the ground again, it's BSBS all over again);
    • SCASD (shield cancelled aerial Spin Dash);
    • SCVSDJ2AAASDTINRAIICSYCTDAVSDJ2 (shield cancelled vertical Spin Dash jump 2 after an aerial Spin Dash that is not released and is instead charged so you can then do a vertical Spin Dash jump 2);

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

That bug with sonic has been in the game since launch and still has yet to be fixed unfortunately. Its irritating tbh given that its such a minute thing that creating visual footage is difficult. The sonic boards did make a video breaking down the bug but I feel it became alittle to technical and the overall goal of the video became lost. I'm still hoping that at some point someone is able to find a way to get the dev teams attention so that this can get fixed......although at this point it may be too late.

 

[Taser9001]

The 2 clips for the 3rd glitch are definitely not isolated cases. My friend showed me a clip of him doing this to Ganondorf through the floor. Ganon was ledge grabbing, Corrin hits the floor a good distance away from the edge, and yet, Ganon still flies off screen to his doom.

 

[Ffamran]

That bug with sonic has been in the game since launch and still has yet to be fixed unfortunately. Its irritating tbh given that its such a minute thing that creating visual footage is difficult. The sonic boards did make a video breaking down the bug but I feel it became alittle to technical and the overall goal of the video became lost. I'm still hoping that at some point someone is able to find a way to get the dev teams attention so that this can get fixed......although at this point it may be too late.

Guessing this is the same deal with RCO lag and Wario in the air or ground confusion? I feel like these are sort of like "oversights" and I put them in quotes for a looser meaning. What mean by this is that they are kind of minute problems that in a more chaotic environment like FFA and teams, people won't really notice since there's too much else going on. I mean, if Meta Knight lands with RCO lag and there's 3 people trying to murder him, it's kind of pointless since he's going to die compared to only 1 person going after him in 1v1 and everyone who knows about it can see the problem. It's probably the game freaking out and not knowing what's happening, so it tries to do something about it without breaking the entire game. The Wario thing was fixed since it was probably easy to code something to "tag" him correctly if he's in the air or on the ground. For RCO and Sonic's Spring Jump glitch, there might be other factors, but they're not as fatal or "stupid" like with the game not recognizing which state Wario's in.

In my opinion, RCO lag and Sonic's Spring Jump glitches are "minor" ones. They are oversights, they are pretty much bugs since the game's not functioning properly and "reacting" properly, but they're not (borderline) game-breaking. Corrin's glitches would be major ones as they do mess with how the game can be played and both pretty much take away your control when they happen. Likewise, Diddy's grab glitch is another example as would the rare, but still game-affecting giant Yoshi glitch.

Now, for game design choices like issues with hitboxes and hurtboxes... That's something else, but it's in my opinion if a move fails to connect or function properly, then that's a bug. Examples being Zelda's Up Smash and Side Smash which worked fine in Brawl, but didn't in Smash 4 for whatever reason. Now, moves that don't connect well, but do function like pre-1.0.8 Falco and Ganondorf's? Nair and Samus's Uair? Those are fine, but it would be really nice for them to connect properly even if they "weren't" intended to like Ganondorf's. It's when they "spectacularly" fail like Diddy's rapid jab, Falco's rapid jab, Falco's Fair in Brawl, Samus's Up Smash, and Zelda's Up and Side Smash that I would consider them to be bugs. Those moves are not functioning and those moves hurt the characters instead of doing enough knockback to save them like Falco's pre-1.0.8 Up Smash. Are these major bugs? Really subjective since for some characters, they only have some dysfunctional moves while the others are good or functioning versus others who only have dysfunctional moves and few good or dysfunctional moves. Are they minor? In my opinion, yes, because they are not functioning properly. Are they game-breaking. Absolutely not, but they are game-affecting like pre-1.0.8? or something, Zelda legitimately could not use or rely her Up Smash or Side Smash. At the same time, this was not because those moves crashed the game or caused strange errors like Peach's Vegetable did on Smash for 3DS's launch.

TL;DR version: As that as mentioned before, this thread is not for asking for buffs or nerfs because they are "broken". This thread is intended only for bugs, preferably major, but minor works too. Examples of these would be giant Yoshi, Diddy's grab glitch, Corrin's glitches, Mewtwo's singleplayer mode glitch, Wario's air and ground confusion, and Peach's Vegetable glitch. These are all examples of strange happenings, moves doing game-breaking things they shouldn't, and the game not recognizing things properly. "Oversights" can count like RCO lag, Sonic's Spring Jump glitch, rage's extreme knockback in certain situations and mostly moves with weighted knockback, and perhaps Greninja's Shadow Sneak hit stun cancel which probably shouldn't be thing since it's not really a counter. Bayonetta and Mewtwo's z-axis hurtbox issues can also count as "oversights", but they're not really that bad. They would be bad if it was extremely common or to the point where if either character shields, they are immune to any grab which they aren't.

 

[ARGHETH]

I don't know if this belongs here, but if Robin only has one Elwind use left and tries to recover, then they can't ledgesnap, even if they're right next to the ledge.

Elwind peetering out when there's just one blade left? I get that.

Not being able to ledgesnap with that one blade though....

 

[Ffamran]

Although explained already, if people kind of want a video showing what's going on with Bayonetta's shield grab thing... Also, if you can read Japanese, feel free to translate it.

 

[Strider755]

So, how will this affect my Charizard & Ness?

 

[FrankTheStud]

I'm honestly expecting two more patches overall. One within the next month or so to balance out Bayo and Corrin (along with their bugs), and just a general maintenance one long afterwards to make the game as tight as possible. (Maybe a loading screen speed increase or something--Just to make the game run smoother)

 

[Yorsh]

Not new bugs, but still here in 1.1.4 :
- If a robin's tome land on a platform and before you catch it, it will disappear in your hand. Levin Sword works fine.
- Robin again : if you buffer an aerial during your jumpsquat with the c stick set to attack (and don't hold the stick, I mean when you leave the ground your stick should be back to neutral) and you was previsously using the bronze sword, Robin will keep using the bronze sword (even with C stick set to attack, he/she should use the levin sword if available). Before you ask, yes it's a bug, it can have a huge impact on a game (make you **** up a free kill on a checkmate) but it's very easy to avoid (just hold the c stick a bit longer).
- If kirby inhales cloud and then taunts, cloud moves won't play their onhit sounds anymore.

I don't know if this belongs here, but if Robin only has one Elwind use left and tries to recover, then they can't ledgesnap, even if they're right next to the ledge.

To be honest this half up B is a giant misstake for too many reasons, so I feel like this is also intended.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I do not genuinely believe that moves hitting or missing due to hit and hurtboxes being located at different values on the Z axis is an intended feature of this game. Bayonetta having a thin frame? Intended. Bayonetta having a thin frame that is at certain times largely ungrabbable due to Z axis positioning? Probably not intended. Not good. You main DK, do you think the blind spots up close on his moves are intentional, despite a hitbox being attached to his limbs at that point?

Actually, Z-axis evasion is a common deliberate balance decision in SSB4. Examples include Little Mac's Straight Lunge charge and Mega Man's crouch. Not saying those specific examples are intentional, though.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I actually think this has been a thing for a very long time, but it's been bothering me for a while especially since he's my main.

When Bowser Jr. uses his up-b eject and is out of his kart, if somebody tries to stage spike him or do anything, even if he techs the stage, he will retain all momentum, so even if I tech I will still die. This has killed many, many matches and is a major problem for Bowser Jr. mains. I will go make a video showcasing this so it can be clearly visible and understandable.

This is especially harmful to me and other Bowser Jr. mains in tournament settings; I've lost a few tournament matches (real life tournaments) because I was hit to the stage, teched, but still bounced away due to this. It makes it to where even if you apply the skill and state-of-mind to tech a potential stock-taking move, it doesn't matter because the character is busted in this manner.

 

[Ryusuta]

Can we just consider Bayonetta herself to be a competitively harmful glitch?

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

I actually think this has been a thing for a very long time, but it's been bothering me for a while especially since he's my main.

When Bowser Jr. uses his up-b eject and is out of his kart, if somebody tries to stage spike him or do anything, even if he techs the stage, he will retain all momentum, so even if I tech I will still die. This has killed many, many matches and is a major problem for Bowser Jr. mains. I will go make a video showcasing this so it can be clearly visible and understandable.

This is especially harmful to me and other Bowser Jr. mains in tournament settings; I've lost a few tournament matches (real life tournaments) because I was hit to the stage, teched, but still bounced away due to this. It makes it to where even if you apply the skill and state-of-mind to tech a potential stock-taking move, it doesn't matter because the character is busted in this manner.

Here's the video I promised showcasing this.

Please have annotations enabled, I have utilized annotations to describe different parts of the video and the glitch.
EDIT: I have also edited the description to be a lot more descriptive, so it's better to use the description to understand better.

Also, was I descriptive enough? Is it clear to understand what's going on?

 

[RonNewcomb]

Bayonetta is ungrabbable again. This time it's Toon Link's tethergrab that went right through her. Both chars are facing each other and a small distance apart, so it isn't just a "hurtboxes lol" thing like Sheik's issue. In this case, it was shortly after Tink set off a Witch Time without getting caught in it, and after a powershield of a returning boomerang.

Video includes 15 seconds of lead-in for context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpb24kvNeCc

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Hey everyone, I was a bit dissatisfied with how I did the first video showcasing Bowser Jr.'s tech momentum glitch, and felt I could do a much better job. Therefore, instead of just uploading a raw replay and writing out a description, I actually took a bunch of clips that I put together into my video editing software and made something of it, to help you guys better understand it.

Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns, and let me know how I did on this. I want to make sure I made it as great to understand as possible.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I'll leave this here.

 

[Rekzius]

I'll leave this here.

I don`t really see this ever becoming a big problem, it is hard to set up, and seasm to be almost random from what i have experienced. Obviously i want this to be removed, but if it does not, i highly daubt i it will have any relevance in the long run.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

On the bright side, if it's not fixed, it'll absolutely be banned in tournaments as stalling.

 

[nerdbot]

I really would like to see a big compilation of glitches/problems put together in an easily-digestible manner to be presented to Nintendo. I hope this thread can be that.

I would really love some balance changes, but I'd accept a thousand years of Sheik if everything at least worked as intended.

 

[Luig]

Some z axis stff was intended, or doesn't really affect competitive play.

Look at Luigi's crouch: he can crouch under fox's lasers, but only because they go behind his head.

Spoiler

Go to flat zone and you can't do that.

With bayonetta, it doesn't look like a bug, moreso an oversight. When sheik dash grabs that close, she bends down and it almost looks like she's trying to dash grab between her her legs because of how thin bayonetta is.

But we probably need another patch to fix these glitches.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Some z axis stff was intended, or doesn't really affect competitive play.

Look at Luigi's crouch: he can crouch under fox's lasers, but only because they go behind his head.

Spoiler

Go to flat zone and you can't do that.

With bayonetta, it doesn't look like a bug, moreso an oversight. When sheik dash grabs that close, she bends down and it almost looks like she's trying to dash grab between her her legs because of how thin bayonetta is.

But we probably need another patch to fix these glitches.

Good post, but question for you. How could it be an oversight by the development team when every persons grab was designed differently? It was no accident that each one character grabs the way he or she does. And in my opinion the fact that Bayonetta scrunches up the way that she does when in shield was also deliberate. The fact that only a few characters are affected (ironically all top tier characters...or is it?) Shows they knew what they were doing. I would however argue that unlike the other things they introduced to make characters different, this special characteristic is more glaring than others, which brings ppl to believe it was an oversight.

 

[Zage]

Fix this.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Good post, but question for you. How could it be an oversight by the development team when every persons grab was designed differently? It was no accident that each one character grabs the way he or she does. And in my opinion the fact that Bayonetta scrunches up the way that she does when in shield was also deliberate. The fact that only a few characters are affected (ironically all top tier characters...or is it?) Shows they knew what they were doing. I would however argue that unlike the other things they introduced to make characters different, this special characteristic is more glaring than others, which brings ppl to believe it was an oversight.

Pretty sure the leg positioning is purely an aesthetics decision, and the occasional missed grabs require a number of specific qualities that makes it feel not intentional: starting with the fact it has to be backwards, grab low, and be very close to her.
Not only top tiers, and not even a majority of the top tiers are affected.


Something interesting is that I have not seen this "issue" at any important match, and we've got A WHOLE LOT of Bayonetta exposure recently.