Match-Up Week #11 : Toon Link

Blad01 · Oct 2, 2008

So, nobody seems to go to the official match-up thread, and i think that creating a thread for every match-up is maybe better, like some others characters boards do.

So, this time, i hope you'll all participate ^^

Week #11 : Toon Link

Toon Link. Fast, small, with 3 different projectiles, able to combo, great recovery.... REally, this is Link with better aptitudes. How could we fight him well ?
Discuss !

Consensus : 60-40

vanderzant · Oct 2, 2008

Most Toon's dislike Falco. In our discussion thread, this is what we came up with.
- Falco outcamps Toon Link and will force him to approach
- Watch recovering from above. TL's Uair > Falco's Dair
- When recovering, Toon's zair will hit Falco out of his phantasm, so maybe try to sweetspot the ledge instead
- Toon's like gimping Falco's Up B (if we get the chance that is) but so does everyone else

Uh, that's all I got. Falco is clearly at an advantage though.

VietGeek · Oct 2, 2008

Falco

Pros:

- Excellent camping/keepaway game
- chaingrab
- decent approach game
- good damage racking

Cons:

- Rather light
- May have problems killing opponent
- Very average recovery

Toon Link:

Pros:

- Zair out ranges all of Falco's moves other than Fsmash and Reflector
- Hero's Shield prevents grounded lasers.
- Decent spacing game
- Varied projectiles
- Disjoint hitbox
- Okay damage racking

Cons:

- Lightweight
- Susceptible to chaingrab
- Has problems killing
- Somewhat linear recovery.

Falco will be controlling the pace of the match due to the match that his lasers force an approach. Naturally we know the Gatling combo will be a great asset for Falco as well.

Falco has better tools to keep Toon Link away while forcing Toon Link to close the gap, as well as using phantasm correctly to reset the situation if things do get unfavorable.

This means Falco has both an easier time racking up damage, as well as killing Toon Link then Toon Link has against Falco. A large amount of Toon Link's keepaway game is rendered useless due to the effectiveness of Falco's camping game, and Toon Link's approaches are not as good as they could be.

TL;DR: Falco's chaingrab, along with his superior keepaway game take away his weakness of having trouble killing (by making it easier to rack up good damage prior), and can reset the situation consistently to force Toon Link on the constant offensive and move. Toon Link does not have the tools or gimmicks to counteract Falco as well, otherwise the two would have similar strengths and weaknesses.

I'd say 6:4 Falco. Sound fair?

Fluke · Oct 2, 2008

Nice post there VietGeek.

Everything there does sound right atm. But I lack toon link matchups (other than, dare-i-say, cpus), so I have no idea on the actual matchup ratio.

Sosuke · Oct 2, 2008

Uh huh and Viet beats me. ~_~
I'll answer questions then.

Vlade · Oct 3, 2008

Difficulty: 5:5 (neutral)

What to expect:

Bombs - these suckers will disrupt your CG, are used for edgeguarding and have a wide blast radius.
Aerial Combat. Toon Link outranges and outprioritizes all of falco's aerial moves except for the bair. TL's bair will combo you, fair will send you off stage potentially killing you, dair is very high priority (although very easily punished) and uair stays out forever and kills easily off the top.
Killing Power. TL has a MUCH easier time KOing falco. TL's Usmash, Fmash and uair are either faster or out-range falco's fsmash and usmash. But falco has bair up his sleeve.
Unfortuantely our recovery is quite easily gimped, particularly our Upb. TL's DI is incredible because of his weight and physics, and his recovery options are more safe than falco's. So don't be surprised if you're gimped when you're careless.

The Strategy:

At the start of the match expect some projectiles to be thrown in your face. The SHDA, boomerang and bombs all deal decent damage but are very slow at travelling. Falco should easily outcamp TL with laser and the reflector. Therefore TL is forced to approach, most likely with either a RAR bair or a Z-air (which by the way has zero lag). I recommend shieldgrabbing either way because even if TL puts out a zair you can still grab him before he lands and spotdodges. Falco can CG TL to about 40%, followed by either a DLX or a dair + bair follow-up, potentially stage-spiking. This likely will not kill him on a neutral stage though.

While you're on low damage TL will combo effectively with bair and nair chains. Remember that falco's bair is superior, so use that to your advantage. Falco also outcamps TL, so use plenty of lasers to create options and openings, and phantasm out of trouble. Bair is an awesome edgeuguarding tool. Use it. Also be very sure to punish if TL decides to use his grab, you should have enough time to think about the appropriate punishment. I usually just grab him in return and throw TL in a convenient position for falco to follow-up (notable throws would be dthrow and bthrow - I dont find fthrow or uthrow very easy to follow up on, especially considering TL's weight).

TL should have an easier time killing than falco because of his range, as well as that godly uair which will just smile at your airdodge. Your best killing option is the bair, or a boost smash which will catch TL off-guard. Because TL is so light, usmash should kill at about 100% if you charge it a bit while it's boosting. Just be sure that you play smart if you're on high damage because TL will easily hyphen smash falco for the kill if on the ground, or uair falco off the top in the air. Spot-dodge Dsmash works well to send TL off the stage, which can be followed up by a bair for the kill. Of course dair is always an option at this point during the stock, although falco may have a hard time getting back up if he misses.

STAGES

Counterpicks:

Jungle Japes - This is where falco truly shines. Lasers and phantasms are more than welcomed, plus TL's camping game will be ver difficult to pull off on this stage. TL can die from a dair into the water as low as 30%, and if he does get back he'll have to use his upb which means another dair for falco to end the stock. Just remember that the ceiling is very high, so dont bother usmashing for the kill. But this also means that TL will have a harder time killing you with Usmash and Uair.
Final Destination/Smashville - Nice and flat for your CG and lasers, just watch out for the lip on FD.

Ban These Stages!

Corneria - The low ceiling on this stage is just asking for falco to be killed earlier by TL's Usmash. This stage doesn't help falco's lasers or CG at all either.
Lylat Cruise - Seriously, TL will actually outcamp you on this stage as long as it's tilted, not to mention the fact that it nurfs our recovery.
Brinstar - The lava will prevent us from killing with the dair.
Norfair - Again, the lava doesn't help out with our spike. Not to mention the platforms are way too short to even perform 2 CG's.

8AngeL8 · Oct 4, 2008

I got wrecked the only time I ever faced an even half-way decent toon-link, but then again it was Santi

Most of the time it's pretty easy to keep him at bay with the reflector + illusion then close in for the kill since you're faster than him on the ground anyway. The fact that he can't be CG'd is kinda irrelevant since you can outcamp him hard.

BKrkr · Oct 5, 2008

I hate playing Falcos for the sole reason he can play keep away (with SHDLs) and get in your face very quickly. Toon's game (vs. most of the roster) is spamming projectiles and moving in with aerials to finish the stock, and the reflector puts a wrench into that. The spike doesn't help either.

Beware that Toon also has a very useful zair, which outranges all of Falco's attacks (except the specials,) which, like your jump canceled laser, has no lag on landing. I always follow Falcos off the stage, toss a boomerang in the phantasm's path, then go for a quick spike. Against Toon, ALWAYS EXPECT THE SPIKE OFF THE STAGE.

mariofanpm12 · Oct 5, 2008

60:40 in Falco's favor( at best)
50:50 in neutral (at worst)

Falco controls the match better with his Blaster than Toon Link does with his projectiles, which are slower, don't go as far, and are easy to see coming thus eays to reflect(though they don't get back to him) or just avoid. This means TL has to approach. They're both good Comboers, but Toon Link has priority over Falco most of the time.

Korpocalypse · Oct 5, 2008

In my experience, these are the most important things to keep in mind while playing against TL.
Watch him:
by this I mean keep your eyes focused on where he is and what he is doing. Most TL's develop VERY patternistic playstyles that you can pick up on and punish.
Moderation with B-down:
I probably use reflector against TL more than any other char, but every now and then it's too much. be aware of what he does when u use the reflector, make sure your spacing is right to reflect the arrow/boomerang AND give you enough time not to be punished for it. Also, when reflecting bombs, it is best to hit with the reflector when it is farthest out, otherwise the blast radius may still hit you as it is not reflected vertically.
Watch your Lasers:
It is easy for TL's to avoid you laser patterns when they become predictable. don't let it happen to you! mix up the timing with b-sides or simple pauses, change between shdls and shls, and basic aerial attacks.

J4pu · Oct 5, 2008

TL; DR
TLink's dsmash can be teched at the same time the second hit connects

Sosuke · Oct 5, 2008

BKrkr said:
Against Toon, ALWAYS EXPECT THE SPIKE OFF THE STAGE.

Wtf?
No!!!!

Korpocalypse · Oct 5, 2008

J4pu said:
TL; DR
TLink's dsmash can be teched at the same time the second hit connects

THAT is incredibly useful!
The #1 move that kills me against TL is the d-smash. I'll be using this
Thank you

8AngeL8 · Oct 5, 2008

BKrkr said:
Against Toon, ALWAYS EXPECT THE SPIKE OFF THE STAGE.

WTFLOL?

10WTFLOL?'s

Blad01 · Oct 7, 2008

8AngeL8 said:
WTFLOL?

10WTFLOL?'s

I think he's speaking of spiking Falco while he's trying to recover with his Firebird.

TLink's dsmash can be teched at the same time the second hit connects

Oh thanks, that's could be *very* useful

Anyway, good jobs guys, especially vanderzant, VietGeek, and Vlade

So it seems that a 55-45 in Falco's favor would be a good consensus, wouldn't it ?

8AngeL8 · Oct 8, 2008

^Oh, okay, that makes sense. Haha, I was just thinking of all the times I've seen terrible TL players suicide while trying to get a spike off the side.

GenesisJLS · Oct 8, 2008

60:40 Falco
I know, I know but any character that you can rack up 45-55 damage and occasionally can't recover from the chain grab spike is an automatic disadvantage. Plus, shine cancels out all of Toon Link's projectiles in addition Toon Link really susceptible to a spike, because of the way his jump telegraphs him while off the stage. How are people even considering this neutral?

Yojimbo · Oct 8, 2008

I would give it 6:4 in Falco's favor considering he controls the entire pace of the match.

Toon Link has very little options to camp since Falco's lasers and shine render it nearly impossible to get a good rotation of projectiles in. This'll force Toon Link to approach.

Other than the dsmash, Falco has TLink's ground game down. TLink is capable of gimping Falco's recovery if played very well, such as Zair to phantasm which has already been said, but I see Falco have a clear advantage in this fight. Chaingrabbing to a spike is a BIG DEAL. Not to mention TLink's recovery is absolute garbage. It's not neutral at all, I agree with Genesis.

C_Ferris32 · Oct 25, 2008

I main as Falco, and my friend mains Toon. Something I notice is that if I get too offensive, I'll usually wind up getting combo'd or rained on with projectiles. When I outcamp him however, that's where Falco really shines, and I can easily punish him. 60:40 :lick:

M@v · Oct 26, 2008

Falco can outcamp and outspace TL. plus he can CG TL. TL has some options, but as said before, falco controls the pace of this match. 6:4 Falco im saying.

wangston · Oct 26, 2008

I didn't think toon link could be chain grabbed past like 2 throws or something like that. My toons I fight seem to jump out of it, so instead I have to do Falco's "new pillar" when I down throw, dair, ff, grab, and repeat until around 45% when toon link smacks the ground instead of landing on it.

M@v · Oct 27, 2008

still, 2 grabs to gattling is like 30% right there.

8AngeL8 · Oct 27, 2008

2 grabs into the FFdair -> grab combo a couple times is enough damage to get TL most of the way to kill percentage, so not being able to do a full chain-grab doesn't matter too much. You can get the rest of the way with laser spam easily.

superglucose · Oct 28, 2008

Keep in mind you can always reflector boomerangs that don't *quite* reach you. I find nothing surprises a toon link more than you sending your reflector after a boomerang that's returning to the TL, because if you touch it it becomes your boomerang and hits TL.

TL has the Zair.

I don't like fighting TL in the air as his priority is a little bit scary and he has good range. Try to keep it on the ground where you're much faster and you have a much better tilt/jab game.

One last note: TL can get his fsmash combo off with a surprising amount of time in between the first and second smashes. I always seem to get caught on that (cause I'm pretty noobish) so be careful.

Sosuke · Oct 28, 2008

superglucose said:
TL has the Zair.

That made me laugh for some reason.

illinialex24 · Oct 28, 2008

I think 55-45 sounds good.

DRKTOONLNK · Jan 2, 2009

I think 60:40 Falco sounds about right. With the chain grab, I can always just jump out out or footsool so thats never really a problem. However, I do always feel vulnerable to Falco's spike, as it is hard to avoid with Tlink.
Since projectiles are typically a big part of Tlink's game, the reflector usually drives me crazy, so that is a big advantage for Falco. It is also always always used against my Zair pretty effectively. I think 60:40Falco.

wangston · Jan 2, 2009

I don't really think falco can chain grab toon. Idk when i played Quivo a few weeks back he got out at 20ish% but idk i might have been doing it wrong.

woops I didn't realize I already posted in the topic.

Teran · Jan 2, 2009

The CG has always worked on TL for me. I'll test it out and see if I can get to the bottom of it.

Rockan · Dec 9, 2009

larry is impossible to play with toonlink ~____~ if you would play him as tl you would know what i'm talking about

Sosuke · Dec 9, 2009

This is over 10 months old.

Teran · Dec 10, 2009

Crawl back to the TL boards Sauce Kay sweetie, I've got this.

No posting in this thread unless it's a significant new development in the TL matchup.

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