Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #11: King Dedede

VietGeek · Sep 26, 2008

King Dedede

Discussion gogogo.

Ratio: 60:40 Dedede

Synopsis:

Coming soon.

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Sep 26, 2008

Lol at pic. Taking a page out of Steel's book.

Sosuke · Sep 26, 2008

I laughed so hard.

Umm he can't chaingrab us right?
(sorry, as you can see I'm REALLY out of it ._.)

VietGeek · Sep 26, 2008

He can CG us. I don't think Zair can cancel it out either.

You have to approach, and that's risky as hell. So...**** it, what you gonna do?

vanderzant · Sep 26, 2008

Can Toon Link out camp the penguin? If he can't then TL is in a bad situation, because any aerial approaches are just asking to get shield grabbed. D3 outranges Toon Links sword by quite a margin.

I still think Toon Link has the advantage in the match up though. Stay on platforms and in the air and try to out-projectile him.

Avoid "walk off" stages and walls in places like Delfino, Mario Kart, etc.

Disfunkshunal · Sep 26, 2008

if you see it coming you can dair spike him out of his up b

Sosuke · Sep 26, 2008

*sigh*
Obvious stuff everyone knows:
Always have a bomb out to stop his Chain grab.
Use Zair a lot.
Bair combo him
yada-yada-yada

Stuff I recommended:
Don't waste your Usmash. You NEED it. Probably save your Utilt too.

BOOMERANG!!! It's your best friend in this match-up. Always have the boomerang floating out there. It'll stop his chain grab easily. (make sure you throw in his direction)

Learn to use Nair and other airials with bombs. Poke at his shield with Nair and Fair (yes, Fair, sorry but your gonna have too).

Retreat as soon as you hit him with any airal.

Hit his orange-one eyed Waddle Doos. They'll get annoying.

Watch out for that stupid Spike-ball he gets sometimes. It kills at VERY low percentages.

Liquid_Kai? · Sep 27, 2008

Be careful of his Bair, especially when he's edgegaurding., Fighting off stage is in Toon's favour but D3s recovery is mega. If you see the upB recovery just wait for him to land as its easily gimpable. Short hop to a quick nair when he is suffring from the lag after landing. If he is offstage, after his upB to grab onto the ledge he needs to press down which gives you enough time for an attack.

And remember because Toons a projectile user Dedede will spam waddle dees and doos to block arrows and boomberangs. Zair would be the best aproach but make sure you retreat after you've aproached so you dont get grabbed.

Ginger_Warrior · Sep 27, 2008

You have to know the basics of TL's AVs in this pair up. SHDA is needed to take care of the waddle-dees/doos. Zair is needed for an approach if you're wanting to conserve Usmash, and actually given D3's size, it's fairly easy to hit. Just back off as soon as possible, if not to avoid his CG, his hammer. If you're planning to fight this battle on the ground, forget it, you're making the fight harder for yourself.

TL's strength is in the air against D3. Watch out for his Bair, and you're in. Hitting combos against D3 with TL's Bair is a dream - D3's weight and size just make him fall into TL's floaty range. His recovery, in my opinion, is poor and predictable. Just land (edgehogging won't help here), wait patiently, and hit him with a Uair as he comes down (DI into him if he falls helplessly out). If you're really fancy, you can use a well-timed Usmash, but that's just stupid if you're in a KO % yourself.

Apart from that, D3 is slow. TL is fast. Use this to an advantage. I'd say this is even, given D3's ability to KO at low %, and his CG.

VietGeek · Sep 27, 2008

Okay guys...take this to heart.

You have to approach...then retreat.

This makes it so pro D3 vs. TL fights are basically the most campy, drawn out BS in Brawl. You have to zone him, spam projectiles, and occasionally hit.

This is what a D3 does typically:

Beg.

Throws about 1-2 waddles. You walk and shield them all or retreat back to grab a projectile.
You have to approach. You send a boomerang past his waddles. He shields it.
You throw a bomb at him. He shields it.
You can:

A: Catch the bomb, and probably get grabbed or Ftilt
B: Leave the bomb.

You approach with Zair and retreat. He shields it. Throws a waddle at you, or Ftilts you while you try to autocancel your Zair.

Yeah, if Dedede's ftilt can out-range ****ing Shield Breaker, Zair has no hope here. You either have to do it high, which makes it lag, or not at all. It's not a safe poking move anymore. Your best option is a retreating Nair, past his Ftilt (only hammer is hitbox, NOT the handle), and weave out and repeat.

Seriously, I don't know what the hell to do in this match-up. On paper, it's hard. In actuality, it's probably even harder. D3 will play gay on you...

can you play even "gayer?"

My pessimism will now give you new light in this discussion. Gogogo!

iRjOn · Sep 27, 2008

This match up just seems like u HAVE to aviod his cg, and get him to atleast 130% before can kill'em unless u gimp him.
And you have to really avoid damage cuz he's powerful.

vbdood1337 · Sep 28, 2008

You can't really gimp D3; multiple mid air jumps and super armor during his up-b make it really hard to gimp him. You need to save your usmash in this matchup or you will have a hard time killing.

iRjOn · Sep 28, 2008

yea thats true usmash and dsmash maybe.

TheFast · Sep 28, 2008

I can't stop laughing XD I just saw that penguin and busted out and my gut hurts now.

zaf · Sep 28, 2008

DDD is a heavy char, bairs really are amazing against him. These will most likely be doing 60% of your damage. Try to have a bomb out or boomerang in case you get grabbed.

Provoking nairs, which retreat to ac is basically all i do.
-The nair hits, i retreat i ac, repeat.
-the nair is shielded i retrea i ac repeat.
It is so safe its ridiculous. if he shoots a waddle dee, the arrow or the nair will hit it, you'll be find. Just watch out for "Gordy" lol. ( yes i know his name is gordo)

zair does not really work in this mu i find.

Now if you manage to get grabbed, spam your a button in hopes of getting out an aaa combo.this is usually what i do and it works.

Ill have a video of this mu on wednesday

Ryos4 · Sep 28, 2008

K well d3 can have alot of things that work against u when u play a good one. But i dont suggest that saving ur Usmash is the best idea on killing. Its much better to save ur fsmash which can kill at about 100% in center stage if fresh. Uncharged i might add. Also im not sure why, but i had an incident where my dair which should have spiked d3, didnt break the super armor of his up special recovery.

Bombs are really ur friend here. Its probably a good idea to have bombs flying in his direction since hes such a huge target.

But by far ur best attack option at low% is the mighty up tilt. A combo that i found to work on D3 fairly well, while its not 100% effective im sure, and can only be used if ur really up close and ur facing him and hes as close to 0% as possible.
Utilt X 3> SH Nair>(Its important you use the second jump before u hit the ground) Dair (2 hits)> Bair(if behind)/Nair(if infront).
I have a match of it being done on D3's second stock (1:17), doing about 73% damage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXxBUfqBgrI

Though another easy combo can also be done if hes behind you when u start the 3 up tilts, which basically turns into the "reverse ken/kizzu combo" or w/e u wanna call it.

VietGeek · Sep 29, 2008

Also, counterpicking Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, or Norfair is probably best. Delfino has walls that can work against you very quickly, as well as walk-offs.

Probably 60:40 Dedede's advantage.

Ban whatever you like, personally you're not truly safe anywhere with D3, lol.

NeoCrono · Sep 30, 2008

The 3 up-tilts works against him, bair works, Zair is useless, and you cant truly gimp his recovery. So just bair him to death? That might work I hope lol :laugh:

TLMarth · Sep 30, 2008

Quickdraw with nair

The dair in that combo is not going to hit.

Sosuke · Sep 30, 2008

With D3 Bair and Utilt a lot for damage.

Then do lotts of airials.
Save all your kill moves.
Hit with with kill moves only when hes at HIGH percents. Hit him with Nair when hes recovering if you can.

Deleted member · Oct 25, 2008

Im not sure if I should bump this, but anyways...

Toon link is one of D3s toughest matchups. D3 gets eaten alive by bair combos, boomerang and bombs make sure he cant cg you for very long, TL is amazingly hard to grab when played smart anyways. TL out camps and out gimps D3(Recover from below and he cant do much, while his recovery is so easy to gimp its crazy, or at least put on a lot of damage.

He has the jumps, but he lacks the aerial maneuverability that Toon link has. TL outzones him, racks up damage quicker, and out camps him.

6:4 TL at least.

DarkPikmin · Oct 25, 2008

Dedede is a tough matchup for TL. When i play him i always try to spike his Up+B for the lulz. Camp him and try your best not to get shield grabbed.

copacetic · Jan 4, 2009

A bit late but if a D3 ever tries to suck you in toss him a bomb. It does full damage and leaves him stunned for a second or two. Works on Kirby and Wario too.

-Cake- · Jan 4, 2009

hit and run. i use LOTS of bombs in this mach up. if he starts spaming his waddle dees, fall back and SHDA

Shadow Moth · Jan 5, 2009

No. Countering his projectiles only puts you at a disadvantage. It's better to stay above him where you can effectively attack and his waddle dees/doos won't hit you anyway.

flareaga · Jan 5, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itkUMhSZ6i8

Here is a nice vid of a good match IMO

haha I love how he trips when he tried to chain grab, the game punished his sin.

Note how Toon Link owned the first stock, but as soon as D3 caught on he took the game. What I take out of it is, change you game, use Tinks versatility!

SamuraiPanda · Jan 21, 2009

Any more insights into this matchup? I've been picking up characters left and right to try and deal with D3's incredible stupidness, but many of the supposed "counters" don't really do that well against him. My newest interest is Toon Link, but if he doesn't win this matchup... then I'd probably have to drop him.

iRjOn · Jan 21, 2009

SamuraiPanda said:
Any more insights into this matchup? I've been picking up characters left and right to try and deal with D3's incredible stupidness, but many of the supposed "counters" don't really do that well against him. My newest interest is Toon Link, but if he doesn't win this matchup... then I'd probably have to drop him.

He doesn't really win it
Its kinda hard...
Look in D3 boards we just finished the match up there.
If you wanna beat D3 get Olimar or GnW
Even Pika

Zorro.cL · Jan 21, 2009

TL Played smart outcamps D3, a boomerang in the air or a bomb in a hand always prevent CGs, plus D3 is waaay easy to combo, utilts and bairs are just amazing damange racks

iRjOn · Jan 21, 2009

Zorro.cL said:
TL Played smart outcamps D3, a boomerang in the air or a bomb in a hand always prevent CGs, plus D3 is waaay easy to combo, utilts and bairs are just amazing damange racks

The problem is he almost out camps and he straight out ranges Toon Link.
Any character play smart can over come bad match ups.
Toon Link's Zair cant even really poke against D3 cause his Ftilt outranges it
:\
Just another bad match up overall for Toon Link cause his bread and butter moves are nearly completely countered.
Only thing Toon gots on D3 is speed and less lagg and better aerial game.
But Toon Link can still win its not as hard as Marth or MK
its winnable.

Remzi · Jan 21, 2009

It seems to me like TL can outcamp him. SHDA alone beats out waddle dees for the most part. Bombs and boomerang make it even better.

At close range, a retreating zair can poke while keeping you out of ftilt distance. That's pretty much your safest close range option. Another thing, I think D3 is one of the easier characters to bair chain, correct me if I'm wrong. As far as off stage game goes, it's pretty easy to mess with his recovery either with projectiles or aerials.

idk, just doesnt seem like too bad a matchup for tl.

iRjOn · Jan 21, 2009

BengalsRZ said:
It seems to me like TL can outcamp him. SHDA alone beats out waddle dees for the most part. Bombs and boomerang make it even better.

At close range, a retreating zair can poke while keeping you out of ftilt distance. That's pretty much your safest close range option. Another thing, I think D3 is one of the easier characters to bair chain, correct me if I'm wrong. As far as off stage game goes, it's pretty easy to mess with his recovery either with projectiles or aerials.

idk, just doesnt seem like too bad a matchup for tl.

A retreating zair doesn't out range ftilt
:X
But imo the camping is 50:50
cause Waddle doos and dees get in the way and our projectiles stop them
Last time I said he can kinda out camp us idk i wasn't thinking.

Everything else you said is right
Yea its not that hard but its really difficult.

Remzi · Jan 21, 2009

iRjOn said:
A retreating zair doesn't out range ftilt
:X
But imo the camping is 50:50
cause Waddle doos and dees get in the way and our projectiles stop them
Last time I said he can kinda out camp us idk i wasn't thinking.

Everything else you said is right

Hmm... I may still be wrong but what I'm trying to imply is that if you do a retreating zair by the time you're low enough to get hit by the ftilt, you'll be out of horizontal range as well. Again, I'm probably wrong, just blind speculation here.

Yea its not that hard but its really difficult.

xD contradictory much? jk i know what you mean, just found it funny

Lobos · Jan 22, 2009

Just to add more to whats already been said....

Ok so D3 has one of the best/fastest spot dodges and shield in the game. He can also
grab you in the air if you don't space your aerials/ zair correctly.

You want to ban an legal walk off stages, FD can go either since its good and bad for both characters.

He CAN be gimp'd easy if you play smart and expect an air dodge. If not don't bother since you'll just SD.

Finally I say save your uair and fair to kill d3 when he tries to upb......uair > his upb

TLMarth · Jan 22, 2009

What (exactly) is a match up discussion?
VietGeek said mindgames don't come into match up discussions.
I think we don't actually care about the rating. We just want to be able to beat the opponent.
It's hard to determine ratings when we can't have mindgames.
So what exactly do we want in match up discussions?

I think it is:

CPs and Bans

How to counter your opponent's strategies and individual moves

The options your opponent has (e.g. Marth's DS OOS), and the options that he doesn't have (Bad recovery), and therefore

Strategies that work especially well against the opponent, taking advantage of the options that he doesn't have (gimping).

Technical things like kill percents. Sort of ties in with 'Strategies that work especially...' in that some technical things might be a chaingrab, or a move that comes out more quickly than any of the opponent's moves.

'to analyze certain situations (neutral state, onstage pressuring, zoning, onstage defending, offstage edgeguarding, gimping, etc.)'

Asdioh · Jan 22, 2009

SamuraiPanda said:
Any more insights into this matchup? I've been picking up characters left and right to try and deal with D3's incredible stupidness, but many of the supposed "counters" don't really do that well against him. My newest interest is Toon Link, but if he doesn't win this matchup... then I'd probably have to drop him.

I can see Toon Link doing well against Dedede.

However, since I'm me, I'd go with Kirby. There have been debates about whether it's 55-45 Dedede's favor, 50-50, or 55-45 Kirby's favor. But overall, if you're good, and play a smart Kirby, you shouldn't have much trouble beating Dedede.

The Fox boards also rate it as 50:50 (don't know when that was last updated) but it doesn't seem like such a bad matchup. And Fox is hella fun to play.
I don't think Dedede can chaingrab Fox. If he can, then obviously Fox isn't a good idea, but if he can't, it shouldn't be too bad.

Maybe I've just never seen Dedede as very much of a threat, except for when Atomsk violated me >_>

iRjOn · Jan 22, 2009

@Lobos

Good stuff.

@Asdioh

Yea Fox cant be CGed

@TLMarth

Match up disscusions are comparisons of a characters options against another character and that characters options to counter or completely over ride the other with out incorperating mind games.
why?
because not everyone falls for mind games.
Its hard to explain...

This is how I understand them though.
It might not be right but I am able to contribute good info sometimes so ehh...
My mind set works...

Vorguen · Jan 24, 2009

As DDD Toon Link's don't pose much of a problem for me. I haven't played any excellent ones but the "decent" ones I played were no problem.

BlueShield · Feb 2, 2009

xDDDDDD Penguin.

Ah okay, DDD...

I got nothing. D:

Approach, avoid CG. Use bomb or boomerang to stop CG. DDD is slow. and big. His FSmash is too slow for TL I dunno about his USmash. Sumthin, sumthin.

Zair alot. I mean alot. DDD is so big he can't help but get hit once and a while.
Abuse air attacks alot. Bair combo'ing is easier. Rack up the damage and fast. His Utilt will kill.
Reserve your smash attacks. Especially the Usmash. yeah i'm sleepy.

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