The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

Asdioh · Sep 29, 2008

jiovanni007 said:
Japes and Luigi's Mansion are banned in some regions already.

pu***** need to stop banning stages. There are not that many stages in the game that NEED to be banned, and those two are definitely not part of them.

Seriously, it pisses me off that some scrubs who think they are the "gods of smash" can just ban stages because of a small element of luck, or stupidity.

I mean, why ban Jungle Japes? The Klaptrap? Well that's random (although it's actually kinda predictable), but so is Luigi's missile misfire, or g&w's 9 hammer. Surely you won't ban those as well?

And the Mansion...I can think of one reason, and that is locking people against the ceiling with certain moves (such as MK's tornado). Well, guys, the stage is destructible, learn2play.

jiovanni007 · Sep 29, 2008

SheerMadness said:
70-30 seems outrageous to me.

I live in Florida which probably has a top 4/5 brawl scene in the country and I've played against plenty of decent Marths.

Kirby definitely doesn't go into the match with that big of a disadvantage. Kirby's f-tilt and Vulcan jabs are two of his best range moves and they work great vs Marth. Kirby has better throws, better edgeguarding, and his f-smash is a better kill move than anything Marth has.

I'd put it at 45-55.

In fact, I don't have any match up in the game worse than 45-55 for Kirby. As far as I'm concerned there's no match up in the game I think that Kirby goes into the match with a significant disadvantage.

The tip of Marth's fsmash wants to talk to you...

edit:
@Asidoh:
Weegee's mansion was actually banned because of MK crying since his tornado owns it up on the lower level of the house. ROB, Kirby, Mario, and few others with utilts that combo into themselves (ROB's dsmash is his seller) also get an advantage on the lower level of the house. Even if you tech on the ceiling it takes ridiculous DI to get out of it. Even with that, if you DI left or right and tech, the pause allows for the ROB/Kirby/Mario player to simply walk over and utilt/dsmash some more. I personally think this should still be counterpick since it discourages many campers and only dumb ppl and heavies can't DI out of ROB's dsmash.

Japes IMO should be banned. Falco = unbeatable on Japes. CG's you left and spikes you into the water and you get washed away to your death. So basically if someone declares Japes and you pick someone that Falco can CG, its gg. Also someone in Louisiana tested Klaptrap's frequency and kill power. One appears every 7 seconds IIRC which wold actually be cool to use strategically in a match except for the part where they kill Bowser (as in exploding at the bottom of the stage) at about 35% with proper DI (to the right so you can float out of the water). IIRC that's less than what it takes to kill Kirby on Aero Drive by the way of a car.

People like to cry, what can you do?

t!MmY · Sep 29, 2008

Asdioh said:
Seriously, it pisses me off that some scrubs who think they are the "gods of smash" can just ban stages because of a small element of luck, or stupidity.

When Brawl came out earlier this year, I asked myself exactly what stages should be used. I came to the realization that, for competitive play, only stages that did not hinder play should be used - a match should be determined by the skill and choices of the players. This is the same reason I feel items should be off in serious matches. After seeing the effects stages have on play, I became more aware of the importance of static stages in tournaments.

For less-than-serious play, a broader range of 'fun' stages with 'good music' is understandable. Small and local tournaments tend to have a large number of stages, but I always wonder about the validity of stage selection in 'major' tournaments. Shouldn't the stages be selected for expression of skill and not simply variety, fun, or for the sake of a bigger list of counterpicks?

jiovanni007 · Sep 29, 2008

t!MmY said:
When Brawl came out earlier this year, I asked myself exactly what stages should be used. I came to the realization that, for competitive play, only stages that did not hinder play should be used - a match should be determined by the skill and choices of the players. This is the same reason I feel items should be off in serious matches. After seeing the effects stages have on play, I became more aware of the importance of static stages in tournaments.

For less-than-serious play, a broader range of 'fun' stages with 'good music' is understandable. Small and local tournaments tend to have a large number of stages, but I always wonder about the validity of stage selection in 'major' tournaments. Shouldn't the stages be selected for expression of skill and not simply variety, fun, or for the sake of a bigger list of counterpicks?

true statement but the only things wrong with japes are the water and klaptrap. Some people say it promotes camping, but it would be counterpick, not neutral. The high ceiling would also benefit floaty characters since they die easier from vertical knockback. This would actually be a perfect ROB counterpick >.>

I do believe that counterpicks make the game more interesting since the neutral stages are not that neutral at all. More counterpicks make the game more interesting, but unfortunately, not many of the possibilities are that perfect.

~Gonzo~ · Sep 29, 2008

jioovanii007, also kirby can fall into the water after sucking someone up and b/c of his weight and the physics of inhale they will get washed down further than Kirby will.

jiovanni007 · Sep 29, 2008

~Gonzo~ said:
jioovanii007, also kirby can fall into the water after sucking someone up and b/c of his weight and the physics of inhale they will get washed down further than Kirby will.

>.> I wish it wasn't banned where I was now

~Gonzo~ · Sep 29, 2008

its not counterpicked to often on east coast but i dont think its gay enough to ban as many players here know how to work around many other character advantages at Japes. Except Kirby's

MK26 · Sep 30, 2008

Bump for little edit (end of 2nd post) and question

Should I post the matchups in order from hardest first (Marth at the top, whoever at the bottom) or easiest first (Bowser first, Marth last), or should I go alphabetical order (<--I dont want this last one)?

Steel · Sep 30, 2008

i'd recommend hardest to easiest. people will want to see those match ups the most so it's more convenient.

MK26 · Sep 30, 2008

Ya, thats what i was planning on doin...just wanna make sure I have a consensus/majority
Any more matchup info Steel, or do we have everything pretty much covered?

SheerMadness · Sep 30, 2008

I think 30-70 is terrible. You guys are clearly doing something wrong if you have that much trouble with Marth.

Again I say 45-55 but I'm obviously not in the majority so you guys put it at whatever you want.

Steel · Sep 30, 2008

MK26 said:
Ya, thats what i was planning on doin...just wanna make sure I have a consensus/majority
Any more matchup info Steel, or do we have everything pretty much covered?

You got it all, anything else go here where we discussed it: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196139

Feel free to post in that thread if you wish to rediscuss the match up or ask a question, that's why we have a different thread for each character.

MK26 · Sep 30, 2008

Bump for epic lol - the thread title has reached its character limit...I dont have any space to write "Sticky request" in the title. Oh, and Sheer, i'm going to humour you. By refuting every sentence in your previous post.

SheerMadness said:
70-30 seems outrageous to me.

I live in Florida which probably has a top 4/5 brawl scene in the country and I've played against plenty of decent Marths.

I'd like names. When you say these people are decent, does that mean they are as good as you skill-wise? Please explain.

Kirby definitely doesn't go into the match with that big of a disadvantage. Kirby's f-tilt and Vulcan jabs are two of his best range moves and they work great vs Marth. Kirby has better throws, better edgeguarding, and his f-smash is a better kill move than anything Marth has.

Two of Kirby's best-ranged moves are out-ranged by Marth's jabs, F-tilt, and D-tilt. Not to mention F-smash. Better throws? Yes. That's a fact. Better edgeguarding? Yes. However, Marth generally doesnt need to edgeguard you as you fly off the screen from his tipper F-smash. Which brings me to my next point...Marth's tipper F-smash beats Kirby's F-smash by a mile, both figuratively and literally.

I'd put it at 45-55.

In fact, I don't have any match up in the game worse than 45-55 for Kirby. As far as I'm concerned there's no match up in the game I think that Kirby goes into the match with a significant disadvantage.

OK. This is the kicker. There's no match that that Kirby goes into with a significant disadvantage? That's ridiculous. You say Kirby goes neutral against G&W? ICs? ROB? Samus? Snake? Zelda? Are you serious? I'm sorry, but that's one heck of a bias. Note that you're the only person on 5 pages of discussion, plus whatever the Marth boards had, to suggest a neutral matchup. I cant just disagree with such an overwhelming majority.

cAm8ooo · Sep 30, 2008

Soooo..... MK26....... Wheres the Meta Knight? This has haunted me, is it when u highlight and it turns kirby bluish like meta? Wait.... highlighting doesnt work. **** u. lol jk but seriously.....

TELL ME!

Asdioh · Sep 30, 2008

I get it.

We can't find the Meta Knight because he's using infinite dimensional cape.

cAm8ooo · Sep 30, 2008

O dang, i think u got it!

TwilightKirby · Sep 30, 2008

I wish I could get a cookie for simply looking at your full profile to see the rest of your sig =/

SheerMadness · Sep 30, 2008

I'd like names. When you say these people are decent, does that mean they are as good as you skill-wise? Please explain.

Are there even any well known Marth's other than like NEO? Giving names seems dumb since I doubt any of u know any good Marths other than NEO or w/e. But either way HRNut is top 10 in Florida and one of his mains is Marth. He got 5th at FAST I think and he top 3's most FL tournies. There are other good ones too.

Which brings me to my next point...Marth's tipper F-smash beats Kirby's F-smash by a mile, both figuratively and literally.

And how many Marths do you see getting tippers 100% of the time? Wait, how many Marths do you see getting tippers even 50% of the time? Kirby's f-smash is way better and far more reliable kill move than his f-smash.

As for Vulcan jab being outranged, if the jabs hit they can't do anything until they're pushed out to where the jabs are no longer hitting them. And the Marth's I've played against certainly haven't found a way to reliably punish vulcan jabs.

You say Kirby goes neutral against G&W? ICs? ROB? Samus? Snake? Zelda?

G&W - 45/55 small G&W advantage
ICs - no IC's in FL won't comment
ROB - 45/55 small ROB advantage
Samus - LOL 60-40 Kirby
Zelda - No good Zelda's in FL
Snake - 45/55 small snake advantage

Like I said theres no character in the game that I go into the match against thinking I'm at a significant disadvantage. You simply have to know how to play against each character.

Steel · Sep 30, 2008

Thinking all those match ups are that close is pure ignorance. Are you speaking from personal experiences or what is actually on paper?

PinkMarshMallow · Sep 30, 2008

I don't think kirby matchup are that bad, imo kirby shouldn't struggle way too hard 0.o

SheerMadness · Sep 30, 2008

Someone who doesn't main Kirby calling me ignorant? Cute.

And yes, I'd say personal experience factors in to everyone's match up beliefs.

Steel · Sep 30, 2008

Do you know how to discuss match ups? I could say I main Falcon and kill every meta knight I play, does that make it anywhere close to even? No.

Take a look at each characters attributes and move lists. Look at their given tools and see how you can or can't apply them to certain situations and you will realize why Kirby doesn't compete if the two players are equally skilled.

cAm8ooo · Sep 30, 2008

TwilightKirby said:
I wish I could get a cookie for simply looking at your full profile to see the rest of your sig =/

ooo... tricky *******. Good job, i will personally give you a cookie because i fear that MK26 may be a selfish ******* when it comes to cookies.

On another note, i laugh at the 45-55 marth matchup.

that is all.

MK26 · Sep 30, 2008

TwilightKirby said:
I wish I could get a cookie for simply looking at your full profile to see the rest of your sig =/

Close...so very close...

SheerMadness said:
Are there even any well known Marth's other than like NEO? Giving names seems dumb since I doubt any of u know any good Marths other than NEO or w/e. But either way HRNut is top 10 in Florida and one of his mains is Marth. He got 5th at FAST I think and he top 3's most FL tournies. There are other good ones too.

And how many Marths do you see getting tippers 100% of the time? Wait, how many Marths do you see getting tippers even 50% of the time? Kirby's f-smash is way better and far more reliable kill move than his f-smash.

As for Vulcan jab being outranged, if the jabs hit they can't do anything until they're pushed out to where the jabs are no longer hitting them. And the Marth's I've played against certainly haven't found a way to reliably punish vulcan jabs.

G&W - 45/55 small G&W advantage
ICs - no IC's in FL won't comment
ROB - 45/55 small ROB advantage
Samus - LOL 60-40 Kirby
Zelda - No good Zelda's in FL
Snake - 45/55 small snake advantage

Like I said theres no character in the game that I go into the match against thinking I'm at a significant disadvantage. You simply have to know how to play against each character.

So do you beat this HRNut on a regular basis? Or is it to other way around?

Who cares about their tipper precentage? A single one is all thats needed to kill you, and it kills a helluva lot faster than Kirby's F-smash

really? Vulcan jab? You're gonna spam that all match? I'd love to see that work.

And those matchup ratings make me laugh. "You simply have to know the character" maybe thats the thing, your opponents prob dont know how to play against Kirby...they may be good, butif they have no idea how their opponent works, they'll have a harder time

cAm8ooo said:
ooo... tricky *******. Good job, i will personally give you a cookie because i fear that MK26 may be a selfish ******* when it comes to cookies.

On another note, i laugh at the 45-55 marth matchup.

that is all.

Yes. I am selfish. And I just realized that I lied. I may have to edit my signature.

PinkMarshMallow · Sep 30, 2008

If kirby match-ups where that good I be amaze, but still Marth has the advantage really!!!
I agree 70-30 too much and 45-55 is =P though I want it to be that :-:
I'll say 60-40 any objectives ?

SheerMadness · Sep 30, 2008

I see most of you have 2008 join dates. Did any of you play competitive melee?

What I'm seeing is that you guys think Marth dominates Kirby basically because he has a couple moves that outrange him. Thats not how it works. Marth's aerials outranged everything in melee so why didn't he 70-30 chars like Sheik, Fox, Falcon and Falco? Because there are other factors to weigh.

Kirby has 1 of the best edgeguarding games of the cast. Pritty much all of Kirby's moveset comes out faster and is less laggy than Marth's. Kirby is one of the best chars in the game at chaining moves together making it easier to rack up damage. Then u branch off from there, for example:

I can walk towards Marth and use my f-tilt as an approach far more affectively than Marth can because it's so much faster.

You have to evaluate all the factors not just that Marth has a couple moves that outrange Kirby.

Steel · Sep 30, 2008

SheerMadness said:
I see most of you have 2008 join dates. Did any of you play competitive melee?

What I'm seeing is that you guys think Marth dominates Kirby basically because he has a couple moves that outrange him. Thats not how it works. Marth's aerials outranged everything in melee so why didn't he 70-30 chars like Sheik, Fox, Falcon and Falco? Because there are other factors to weigh.

Kirby has 1 of the best edgeguarding games of the cast. Pritty much all of Kirby's moveset comes out faster and is less laggy than Marth's. Kirby is one of the best chars in the game at chaining moves together making it easier to rack up damage. Then u branch off from there, for example:

I can walk towards Marth and use my f-tilt as an approach far more affectively than Marth can become it's so much faster.

You have to evaluate all the factors not just that Marth has a couple moves that outrange Kirby.

That's why i'm surprised, you're from 05 but have no clue how to discuss a match up? Seriously, your ratios are laughable.

Brawl is a completely different game from melee, mostly in that it is a hell of a lot more campy. Yes, marth camps with his sword, especially in a match like this.

Tell me what Kirby can do to deal with Marth's zoning and pressure? Don't bother, we've gone over this multiple times in both threads.

How do you plan on hitting with his ftilt if Marth will keep you out with his sword?

Emblem Lord · Sep 30, 2008

Melee gave characters more tools to work with to deal with range. Namely dash dancing, wave dashing and the ability to shield in the initial dash.

In brawl those things are gone. All that's left are the natural attributes of the characters.

Marth has more range, better punishers, frame-traps, better speed on the ground, more mobility in the air, a better pressure game and is better a setting up for his kill moves i.e creating situations where it's easy to land a kill move.

Kirby has better recovery and better edgeguarding.

70/30 plz.

And I have no 08 join date my good man.

MK26 · Sep 30, 2008

Objection!

Def not 60-40

Maybe 65-35 if the Kirby plays super gay and spams d-throw--> u-tilt

But if the marth plays equally gay...o wait, if they both play gay, they might hit the time limit, in which case...the Marth would probably win.

And Sheer, what does Melee have to do with this?

Marth didnt 70-30 those chars because they had quick approaches from both air and ground (wavedash, waveshine, SHFFL etc.). Brawl Kirby simply does not have those options, or even pure speed. A Marth could simply stand there all day, spam f-tilt, and Kirby will not be able to get within Marth's range without being painfully obvious. Yes Kirby can chain moves, but how will he get the first hit in? Just about his only option is dashing shield grabs... and Marth F-tilt>>Kirby F-tilt

Its not like just one of Marths moves beats one of Kirby's. Marth's 3 fastest moves beat all of Kirby's, regardless of speed or power. It's that simple. Can you suggest any counterpicks where this advantage is negated?

EDIT: Emblem Lord beat me to the punch and *****slapped Sheer at the same time. 'Cept i disagree with the"more mobility in the air" part

Emblem Lord · Sep 30, 2008

I meant aerial movement speed. Kirby has more jumps to help make up for that, but having high aerial speed is really important for making easy adjustments to spacing.

PinkMarshMallow · Sep 30, 2008

yes I did join at 2008 but I still have they right to speak =.=
and Yes Kirby is really good I admit that, but you can't really compare how they did in melee.
And it true I haven't play competitive melee, but i did play melee, and I now know whats L-cancel, wavedash etc but you can't use in brawl =[

we not saying Marth dominates Kirby !!! he in advantage =0

MK26 · Sep 30, 2008

oic...I though u meant aerial control

As a Marth main, what stages do u dislike going to and why?

PinkMarshMallow · Sep 30, 2008

MK26 said:
Objection!

Def not 60-40

Maybe 65-35 if the Kirby plays super gay and spams d-throw--> u-tilt

But if the marth plays equally gay...o wait, if they both play gay, they might hit the time limit, in which case...the Marth would probably win.

And Sheer, what does Melee have to do with this?

Marth didnt 70-30 those chars because they had quick approaches from both air and ground (wavedash, waveshine, SHFFL etc.). Brawl Kirby simply does not have those options, or even pure speed. A Marth could simply stand there all day, spam f-tilt, and Kirby will not be able to get within Marth's range without being painfully obvious. Yes Kirby can chain moves, but how will he get the first hit in? Just about his only option is dashing shield grabs... and Marth F-tilt>>Kirby F-tilt

Its not like just one of Marths moves beats one of Kirby's. Marth's 3 fastest moves beat all of Kirby's, regardless of speed or power. It's that simple. Can you suggest any counterpicks where this advantage is negated?

EDIT: Emblem Lord beat me to the punch and *****slapped Sheer at the same time. 'Cept i disagree with the"more mobility in the air" part

Lol ok

65-35

btw nice OBJECTION

MK26 · Sep 30, 2008

no, its 65-35 if the Kirby plays gay and the Marth doesnt

And yay for google!

PinkMarshMallow · Oct 1, 2008

but won't you play better if your happy 0.o lol jk

Idk if rainbow cruise is banned at your area but yea moving maps =.= ( for marth mains)

SheerMadness · Oct 1, 2008

Marth has more range, better punishers, frame-traps, better speed on the ground, more mobility in the air, a better pressure game and is better a setting up for his kill moves i.e creating situations where it's easy to land a kill move.

Range and speed sure. Everything else I'd certainly disagree with.

A Marth could simply stand there all day, spam f-tilt, and Kirby will not be able to get within Marth's range without being painfully obvious.

LOL are you serious?

EDIT: Emblem Lord beat me to the punch and *****slapped Sheer at the same time.

Let's have an adult argument. Declaring someone "owned" just because you happen to disagree with their side is childish.

SheerMadness · Oct 1, 2008

Anyone wanna play online? Marth vs Kirby.

Yes, online is terrible but I can atleast give people an Idea of why I think the match is fairly even.

AIM me at SheerMadness10 if you wanna play. I'm in Florida so probably east coast only. The delay is pritty unplayable with people from the west coast.

cAm8ooo · Oct 1, 2008

SheerMadness said:
Im a big ***** and dont know anything about kirby and marth fighting and what not.

What tha..... well..... if you admit that you dont know anything about the matchup then i guess the argument is over. I win.

( how about that for an adult argument)

nah just jokin, but really, marth owns kirby, im sad to say it, but it's true.

SheerMadness · Oct 1, 2008

nah just jokin, but really, marth owns kirby, im sad to say it, but it's true.

Thus why arguing with a bunch of Kirby players who get owned by Marth isn't going to get me anywhere.

T-nuts · Oct 1, 2008

hey sheermadness, if you want to play a great marth online, find dannykat on AiB. Maybe that will help you understand. You might wanna try playing emblem lord too. I've heard good things about him but unlike dannykat I have no first hand experience with emblem lord.

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