Le THieN's Match-Up Newsflash: Marth vs. Diddy is Even

Le_THieN · Sep 20, 2008

20 May 2009 Update:

Keepin' this short and sweet. These videos came from the same session of friendlies KOS-MOS and I had when he repeatedly whooped my *** with his Peach.

Tournament Matches

Got Owned? [Stillwater, OK, 6 September 2008]

Prince Bistro Tournament #1 [Flower Mound, TX, 10 October 2008]

OH SNAP! v4.0 [Norman, OK, 22 November 2008]

Funhouse SSBB/Soul Calibur 4 #4 Monthly [Tulsa, OK, 4 January 2009]

Final Smash V: Reunion [San Antonio, TX, 10 January 2009]

Friendlies

Post-OH SNAP! v4.0 Friendlies @ The 4303 [Norman, OK, 23 November 2008]

Pre-Clash of the Titans 4 Smash-Fest @ Chibo's [Philadelphia, PA, 6 February 2009]

Pre-NO KOAST Smash-Fest @ GMo & KPeezy's [Norman, OK, 20 February 2009]

Spring Break '09 Smash-Fest @ Bwett's [Dallas, TX, 20 March 2009]

Fogo (King DeDeDe) vs. Le THieN (Diddy Kong): Yoshi's Island

Friendlies @ The 4303 [Norman, OK, 29 April 2009]

*matches that will forever be nearest and dearest to my heart for one reason or another

ADHD · Sep 20, 2008

Cool ill take a look at these theres alot--hoping to learn some stuff

Btw wario isn't that hard IMO I'm scared to death of GnW

Player-1 · Sep 21, 2008

Wario has the advantage over Diddy...but i usually win that match-up...IDK why

chimpact · Sep 21, 2008

The first game is lucario vs olimar.

I watches the MK/Wario/Snake vids

The guy seems to be terrible with MK. All he does is spam B moves. He doesn't know how to edgeguard.

The wario is good, but he uses Dsmash at the worst times, not to mention it is a terrible move. And his bite move is so predictable. You can use a peanut at him and then throw a banana i think.

The snake was pretty good with grenades ill have to admit that. But he did nothing other than that. He didn't grab, use the nikita, or use ftilt that much. At least he used the hyphen smash.

I don't know if you played them a lot and they got comfortable just using a select amount of moves or what.

Last thing, why do you down throw? Isn't it pointless?

Le_THieN · Sep 21, 2008

yoshididdy said:
The guy seems to be terrible with MK.

yoshididdy said:
The wario is good, but

yoshididdy said:
he snake was pretty good with grenades ill have to admit that. But he did nothing other than that.

"Your opponents suck, blah blah blah"

lol

I love it when people discredit videos like this.

I'd love to see some of your matches.

Vyse · Sep 21, 2008

Ack, I think I'll wait til tommorow to watch all these so I can waste my work's bandwidth.

: )

I already critiqued one of your matches I think anyway.

Count · Sep 21, 2008

Enjoyable videos, some good players you were playing in the vids I watched. Your diddy is the most similar to mine of anybody's I have seen, although yours is a better version

.

chimpact · Sep 21, 2008

Le_THieN said:
"Your opponents suck, blah blah blah"

lol

I love it when people discredit videos like this.

I'd love to see some of your matches.

You can't really deny anything that I said. And I dont have a camera, I could send you replays, but for some reason "Wii connect 24 and wii shop are currently not being offered".

Le_THieN · Sep 21, 2008

yoshididdy said:
You can't really deny anything that I said.

When I asked for comments or criticism, I knew I was also opening the floodgates for silly, non-constructive, reverse-logic berating of my opponents as well. I hoped against hope that something like that wouldn't occur here and that I would just receive direct criticism that was based on my game-play, but obviously that's not the case here.

The critical flaw with your direct line of reasoning is that if one person is "on" and "wrecking" and "playing extremely well" during the match, then that it also logically follows that the other person is usually not playing as well. It's not common for both opponents in a match to be playing their absolute best to birth a dazzling and entertaining match every single time.

The people I play with are good, even great, players. That's all I will say in their defense, as I am in no way obligated to provide you with a 10-page dossier on the biographical gaming history and tournament results of every person I play. If I had been owning brand name Brawl players in these various videos, this would obviously not even be an issue. Instead, what we have here is an instance some random user dropping in to discredit someone else's skill or victories because he or she was facing opponents that apparently are not "up to snuff."

NinjaLink's Pikachu **** was filled with complete garbage reasoning like this. If you think I'm not any good, you really ought to consider cutting to the chase and putting that out in the open. Seriously, don't waste my time.

yoshididdy said:
And I dont have a camera, I could send you replays, but for some reason "Wii connect 24 and wii shop are currently not being offered".

Don't worry; I really wasn't actually interested.

Zinc Elemental · Sep 21, 2008

Le_THieN said:
When I asked for comments or criticism, I knew I was also opening the floodgates for silly, non-constructive, reverse-logic berating of my opponents as well. I hoped against hope that something like that wouldn't occur here and that I would just receive direct criticism that was based on my game-play, but obviously that's not the case here.

The critical flaw with your direct line of reasoning is that if one person is "on" and "wrecking" and "playing extremely well" during the match, then that it also logically follows that the other person is usually not playing as well. It's not common for both opponents in a match to be playing their absolute best to birth a dazzling and entertaining match every single time.

The people I play with are good, even great, players. That's all I will say in their defense, as I am in no way obligated to provide you with a 10-page dossier on the biographical gaming history and tournament results of every person I play. If I had been owning brand name Brawl players in these various videos, this would obviously not even be an issue. Instead, what we have here is an instance some random user dropping in to discredit someone else's skill or victories because he or she was facing opponents that apparently are not "up to snuff."

NinjaLink's Pikachu **** was filled with complete garbage reasoning like this. If you think I'm not any good, you really ought to consider cutting to the chase and putting that out in the open. Seriously, don't waste my time.

He's got a valid point, though. I don't know Diddy well enough to comment on your Diddy skills, but SARS' MK was garbage. He spammed B moves when he shouldn't have and wasn't even remotely good at using them.

The fact that you had a close match with him doesn't speak well of you abilities. You asked for criticism, and he gave it to you. Why do you need to resort to ad hominim attacks?

Le_THieN said:
Don't worry; I really wasn't actually interested.

As for this, just don't be a ****.
I can speak well of Yoshididdy's skills, if you care.

chimpact · Sep 21, 2008

Why are you so insecure? I said they made stupid moves in ALL of the matches. You say that they weren't "on", but the snake just wasn't good besides his grenades, that metaknight obviously doesn't play him that much and that wario is good, it is just that he got predictable.

I NEVER said you weren't good. I just said that your opponents weren't playing to their full potential. I mean if you want criticism then why post that youtube vid of you ****** a terrible PT. You ARE good. Is that what you want? Seriously stop assuming that I am trying to say something, because you obviously don't know what I am trying to say.

Le_THieN · Sep 21, 2008

yoshididdy said:
Why are you so insecure? I said they made stupid moves in ALL of the matches. You say that they weren't "on", but the snake just wasn't good besides his grenades, that metaknight obviously doesn't play him that much and that wario is good, it is just that he got predictable.

I NEVER said you weren't good. I just said that your opponents weren't playing to their full potential. I mean if you want criticism then why post that youtube vid of you ****** a terrible PT. You ARE good. Is that what you want? Seriously stop assuming that I am trying to say something, because you obviously don't know what I am trying to say.

Really? You give yourself way too much credit with the literal reading of what you said word for word without giving any regard whatsoever for the things you imply by making sweeping assumptions like that. Think about it: how else am I supposed to interpret the direct censure of the people I play with when the only thing you mentioned off hand was that "one of your links is wrong, your opponents suck, and D-throw is pointless"? You can pat yourself on the back all day and cross another name off your list of people whose lives you've ameliorated with this incredibly uplifting and revealing bit of advice, but contrary to popular belief, it all came off as quite negative to me and doesn't do a single thing to help me at all at the end of the day.

I know how good I am and I know exactly how I stack up in the competitive world, but I'm allotted the opportunity to call into question a the implications someone makes whenever all they have to offer is condemnation of the people I play with. People all over SmashBoards have been trying to discredit others through this precise sort of criticism; I apologize if that truly wasn't your intent and overreacting, but you - in retrospect - can't really blame me for drawing this conclusion.

As for your lurking savior:

Zinc Elemental said:
He's got a valid point

he wasn't remotely good at using them.

The fact that you had a close match with him doesn't speak well of you abilities.

You asked for criticism, and he gave it to you.

As for this, just don't be a ****. I can speak well of Yoshididdy's skills, if you care.

l o l !

You're one to reference informal fallacies. Good day, kiddo.

Zinc Elemental · Sep 21, 2008

Le_THieN said:
l o l !

You're one to reference informal fallacies. Good day, kiddo.

I'm sorry, was there any sort of argument or counterpoint there? I didn't see it.

bludhoundz · Sep 21, 2008

I liked the z dropped bananas. I'm surprised more Diddy players don't do this. I think it's a good edgeguarding tool and a good tool in general if your opponent is below you.

Le_THieN · Sep 22, 2008

Zinc Elemental said:
I'm sorry, was there any sort of argument or counterpoint there? I didn't see it.

Yeah; the informal fallacy of the appeal to authority. Familiar with it? Glad to see you're the ultimate litmus test on how mediocre I am (even though you self-profess that you have little Diddy knowledge), but yet are able to vouch for the skill of another Diddy main. The following golden nuggets of yours:

I don't know Diddy well enough to comment on your Diddy skills

The fact that you had a close match with him doesn't speak well of you abilities.

betray the fact that you are either too dense to realize that you made to blatantly contradictory statements in virtually the same breath, or that you are an idiot. Both are equally absurd. Take your pick, son.

Perhaps you ought to consider broadening your understanding of the character - or, at least not admit that you don't know anything - before you blindly launch salvos.

bludhoundz said:
I liked the z dropped bananas. I'm surprised more Diddy players don't do this. I think it's a good edgeguarding tool and a good tool in general if your opponent is below you.

Yeah, it seems most people don't expect it; and even if they do, ledge recovery options have been nerfed so much from Melee to the point where you'll most likely connect with the banana almost 100% of the time once you bait them into trying to get back on the stage (be it via rolling, pulling themselves back up, jumping, or ledge-hopping). I find this method more preferable to just simply throwing it down for a number of reasons, and it's the best option that allots you enough time to set up for a potential F-air kill.

Hylian · Sep 22, 2008

It's pretty obvious that Le_Thien is much better then his opponents, but there is no reason at all to point it out. Calling them bad is just begging for a flame war and it doesn't really contribute anything to this thread at all. How about, you actually look at what Thien is doing, how he reacts to things, how well he punishes his opponents..etc. There are pleanty of thing to critique on rather then just bashing his opponents.

Oh, and close matches in brawl happen all the time between players varying in skill. It's not like he's going to play for hours and 3 stock his opponents every match just because he is better then them. Some times your opponents can just catch on to what you are doing and do well without really looking impressive or making generally smart decisions anyways.

How about you guys actually try to contribute to the topic rather then just saying stupid things like: "Your opponent sucks".

Besides, Le_Thien came to texas and beat our #2 ranked player 3-0 in tournament 2 stocking him every match I believe. Not only that, he has never placed below 4th in a tournament IIRC. So assuming he isn't that good because he had some close matches with a relatively unknown player is pretty...well...uncalled for.

On that note, I look forward to finishing all of these videos. Good stuff Thien

.

Zinc Elemental · Sep 22, 2008

Le_THieN said:
Yeah; the informal fallacy of the appeal to authority. Familiar with it? Glad to see you're the ultimate litmus test on how mediocre I am (even though you self-profess that you have little Diddy knowledge), but yet are able to vouch for the skill of another Diddy main. The following golden nuggets of yours:

betray the fact that you are either too dense to realize that you made to blatantly contradictory statements in virtually the same breath, or that you are an idiot. Both are equally absurd. Take your pick, son.

Perhaps you ought to consider broadening your understanding of the character - or, at least not admit that you don't know anything - before you blindly launch salvos.

My point was never to say that you sucked. My point was simply that Yoshididdy had a right to criticize you as he did in a thread asking for criticism.

I wasn't trying to comment personally on your skill. I said myself, I'm not a Diddy player and can't do that accurately. What I did say is that having a close match with a bad player is not a good thing.

Your Diddy looks good to me. Just don't attack people for criticizing when that's what you ask for. At the very least, Yoshididdy pointed out that you need a better MK to practice with than SARS.

My intent was not to start a flame war. Let's end this now please. *Offers hand shake*

pastaboy · Sep 22, 2008

Le thien: do u happen to be an english major becuz

1. everypost is an essay that ***** the **** out of ppl with no logic
2 everypost goes indepth, like so indepth liek to the centre of the earth
3.can you write my essays for me.

chimpact · Sep 22, 2008

When did I say your opponents sucked or you sucked? I didn't; stop putting words in my mouth. Just end this. You are assuming that I am saying something. This is ridiculous.

Hylian · Sep 22, 2008

yoshididdy said:
The guy seems to be terrible with MK. All he does is spam B moves. He doesn't know how to edgeguard.

The wario is good, but he uses Dsmash at the worst times, not to mention it is a terrible move. And his bite move is so predictable. You can use a peanut at him and then throw a banana i think.

The snake was pretty good with grenades ill have to admit that. But he did nothing other than that. He didn't grab, use the nikita, or use ftilt that much. At least he used the hyphen smash.

I don't know if you played them a lot and they got comfortable just using a select amount of moves or what.

Last thing, why do you down throw? Isn't it pointless?

^^^^ Right here. I'm not assuming anything. This post was extremly condescending and didn't help Le_Thien in any way. What was the point of even posting something like that?

There was no critique of how his diddy played, there was no advice, it was just remarks about his opponents faults with their characters, which is something that doesn't need to be pointed out when critiquing someone.

DUB · Sep 22, 2008

I thought Bwamp's R.O.B. wasn't that bad. He's got good anticipation.

You use Diddy's D-throw more then I do though, I'm just wondering what the reason behind that is. Do you use the extra heigh to get bananas out? I use the back through for more horizonatl distance and set up for edge-guards.

chimpact · Sep 22, 2008

Ok I get what you mean and Ill stop arguing, but when your opponent play against you like that how are you supposed to critique them?

Le_THieN · Sep 22, 2008

Zinc Elemental said:
*Offers hand shake*

Accepted. We'll just end this on the note of both you and yoshididdy dodging my arguments. =) LEZ BURY DIS HATCHET

Anyway, besides my "terrible" opponents, can you comment on anything that directly relates to my play-style? Currently, my toughest match-ups from the Top Tier are MK, ROB and Falco in that order. I find myself having to fight these guys from being behind stock- or percentage-wise at least half the time. You're a Meta Knight main - what are the key components that usually get you into rough spots against Diddy (or against your tougher match-ups in general)?

Hylian said:
Besides, Le_Thien came to texas and beat our #2 ranked player 3-0 in tournament 2 stocking him every match I believe.

That's mostly true except that it was 3-1; Melee1 managed to squeeze off a victory at Pokemon Stadium 1. *sob*

pastaboy said:
Le thien: do u happen to be an english major

I contemplated it for a month before I switched over to Political Science. The English department at OU blows.

DUB said:
You use Diddy's D-throw more then I do though, I'm just wondering what the reason behind that is. Do you use the extra heigh to get bananas out? I use the back through for more horizonatl distance and set up for edge-guards.

I like NinjaLink's B-throw setup into a potential banana barrage, but no one around here falls for that anymore. I prefer to save F- or B-throws near edges around the median of 120% (some characters will outright die, depending on variables like character weight and horizontal blast zone distances). If they don't die, then I at least have time to start sniping with charged popgun shots or RARing smash banana tosses, or both if I have time.

Other than that, I will spend most of my time baiting opponents into banana setups and glide-toss into grabs, pummels, and U- and D-throws (obviously in the interest of saving my F- and D-smashes, which I've disciplined myself to use maybe two or three times a match each; U-smash is now my most used smash attack). Both of these are great for clearing out your move decay queue, but D-throw is particularly interest because most of the people I've fought who expect a B-throw immediately try to DI back in my direction, in which case I'll just start pulling bananas out again.

The thing with using F- or B-throw is that most of the time there will be such great distance between you and your opponent that it won't be difficult for them to regain positional advantage with their double jump and reset their spacing. U- and D-throw is that it doesn't really put too much distance between you and your opponent, and lessens the time they have to react accordingly once they're able to become grounded again. I seem to be able to force a lot more mistakes this way in terms of bad DI, premature air-dodging, or just simply getting free damage from delayed U- or B-airs.

Even if they do technically still have their second jump to readjust their spacing after being U- or D-thrown, they still have the burden of trying to get back on the ground, in which case you still have positional advantage. It all depends on which character you're facing off against, but most people aren't used to being U-thrown in Brawl since most U-throws are no longer comboable.

U- and D-throw also seem a lot more conducive to my style on platforms, as well. This strategy is a little bit more difficult to explain or visualize, but I've started purposely tossing out bananas on platforms so I can follow up on U- and D-throws with Z-grabbed banana tosses. It's much quicker than picking up bananas with cartwheeling or skidding halts, and it immediately puts me in the air to follow up banana throws with the appropriate aerial approach.

Honestly, if I'm not having to face off against Meta Knight, I have no problems actually counter-picking other characters with stages like Yoshi's Island and Battlefield. I really, really, really, really, really, really love those stages now. For me personally, platforms are the devices that have been most expansive to my banana game in these last couple of months.

Zinc Elemental · Sep 22, 2008

Le_THieN said:
Accepted. We'll just end this on the note of both you and yoshididdy dodging my arguments. =) LEZ BURY DIS HATCHET

Anyway, besides my "terrible" opponents, can you comment on anything that directly relates to my play-style? Currently, my toughest match-ups from the Top Tier are MK, ROB and Falco in that order. I find myself having to fight these guys from being behind stock- or percentage-wise at least half the time. You're a Meta Knight main - what are the key components that usually get you into rough spots against Diddy (or against your tougher match-ups in general)?

My main alt is ROB, so I can help there too. :D

To put it simply, MK is basically better than Diddy in every way....except for bananas. Abuse the hell out of those. You can punish ground approaches, you can knock MK out of tornadoes, you can get in a free throw most of the time that you hit him, and banana to fsmash seems to be what I die to most of the time.

However, keep in mind that MK's dash attack isn't half bad at picking up the bananas, so expect to have quite a few thrown back at you. A banana to dsmash hurts.

Other than your banana game, I guess simply try to minimize your weaknesses. MK's edgegaurding game and recovery are far superior to your's, so when you're off the edge, recovery quickly and straight to the edge if at all possible. Being stuck above the stage while in your barrel rocket animation is asking for a dair.

I've never gotten killed from a dair spike before, so that's certainly not an edgegaurding option. I'd never go far off the stage (or above MK, never do that) when edgegaurding, but your fair outranges MK's and has good knockback, so you can pick up some kills like that.

I can't think of anything else for MK. Maybe something else will come to me.

I don't know as much about ROB, as I usually use MK for Diddy. However, I'll share what I can.

Be careful of his laser and gyro when you're picking up bananas with dash attacks. Diddy stays in the cartwheel more than long enough for ROB to knock you out of it with a gyro or laser (often making you drop the banana. ROB has that wonderful ability to glide toss a gyro into a dsmash or fsmash. This carries over to the bananas. Glide-tossed banana to dsmash will hurt, and fsmash will often kill at higher precents (as it's probably fresh, at least, with my ROB it is)

If ROB recovers low with his booster, you can punish him with a dair, as he can't airdodge out of it. If he recovers higher with it, you can hit him with fairs, but don't count on this too much.

Last, don't set yourself up for a string of fairs off the stage. That ends very badly for Diddy.

Count · Sep 22, 2008

Poly sci owns. I am envious of you. I regret not majoring in that.

And on topic your diddy is fun to watch. I've been watching a few vids a day.

bludhoundz · Sep 22, 2008

Le_THieN said:
Yeah, it seems most people don't expect it; and even if they do, ledge recovery options have been nerfed so much from Melee to the point where you'll most likely connect with the banana almost 100% of the time once you bait them into trying to get back on the stage (be it via rolling, pulling themselves back up, jumping, or ledge-hopping). I find this method more preferable to just simply throwing it down for a number of reasons, and it's the best option that allots you enough time to set up for a potential F-air kill.

Honestly I think it should be implemented into everyone's banana game.

Dropped bananas fall more slowly than down thrown ones (this is very important, because the bananas' timers run out as they are on the ground, not while they are in the air) -- thus the hitbox is more likely to knock an opponent off the edge because it will take more time to pass them during their invincibility frames, which will probably run out. Also Diddy can follow up on an opponent who is hit by a dropped naner better than a down thrown one, because if you FF you can catch up to the dropped banana, whereas an opponent can recover from a down thrown one before you can get to them.

There are tons of mindgames with this too: you can get right next to the edge where your opponent is (mock poor spacing to bait out a ledge attack) and jump away while z dropping the banana to leave them vulnerable. That's just one of many.

The best thing, though, is that dropping a banana is lag free. Throwing produces a small amount of lag. Say you are holding a banana while in the air, and your opponent is also in the air. If you throw the banana at them, there is a small lag afterwards and it might be possible for them to airdodge or attack before you can throw out an aerial. However if you drop a banana on them, there will be 0 lag and you can immediately follow up without fear of retaliation. This is all assuming the banana connects, of course.

Dropped bananas are also good for retreating, as they create a falling hitbox between you and the opponent.

chimpact · Sep 22, 2008

If you Dthrow a banana your momentum goes down with the banana so if you are trying to Dair spike them it won't work as well and you might SD. Z dropping works way better. And yea from my experience against zinc, don't cartwheel to grab bananas against Rob. Instead jump over them and shield them so you can glidetoss immediately instead of being in a position that your opponent can easily punish.

For falco I like to try to get behind him or above him and start using my bananas. He cant use his reflector and if he shields them, he will trip over the bananas. His recovery is SO EASY TO GIMP! Peanuts bananas from the side and zdropped bananas/dairs/barrel spike when you are above him. It is a very hard matchup, but it is winnable.

Advent Lee · Sep 23, 2008

Le_THieN said:
U- and D-throw also seem a lot more conducive to my style on platforms, as well. This strategy is a little bit more difficult to explain or visualize, but I've started purposely tossing out bananas on platforms so I can follow up on U- and D-throws with Z-grabbed banana tosses. It's much quicker than picking up bananas with cartwheeling or skidding halts, and it immediately puts me in the air to follow up banana throws with the appropriate aerial approach.

Honestly, if I'm not having to face off against Meta Knight, I have no problems actually counter-picking other characters with stages like Yoshi's Island and Battlefield. I really, really, really, really, really, really love those stages now. For me personally, platforms are the devices that have been most expansive to my banana game in these last couple of months.

Oh no!! He figured out one main difference in my new style of Diddy!! But naw, one day I was messing around in some friendlies against a pretty good Falco, and I was trying to figure out a TOTALLY NEW play style for Diddy that did not rely on glide toss combo's. By figuring out a few new tricks, techs, and new strategies I invented a new play style with Diddy thats been pretty effective so far. And obviously using platform stages with Up and Down throw, with bananas on platforms is a main key part in it. Ill go much deeper into it when I get the vids up. I have the vids saved to my wii but who wants to upload them for me because I dont have the equipment to do it

As far as the vids go, I luved every single Up-Throw you used

Cant wait to get my new vids up especially my vids where I play falco on his best stages without the use of bananas, pretty insightful. I guess great minds do think alike.

-advent-

Le_THieN · Sep 23, 2008

bludhoundz said:
Dropped bananas fall more slowly than down thrown ones (this is very important, because the bananas' timers run out as they are on the ground, not while they are in the air) -- thus the hitbox is more likely to knock an opponent off the edge because it will take more time to pass them during their invincibility frames, which will probably run out. Also Diddy can follow up on an opponent who is hit by a dropped naner better than a down thrown one, because if you FF you can catch up to the dropped banana, whereas an opponent can recover from a down thrown one before you can get to them.

Yeah, these are precisely why I prefer the Z-drop over an opponent hanging onto the ledge. Most people rely on visual cues to anticipate bananas (even though dropped or thrown bananas make pretty prevalent sounds that considerably less people pay attention to), but I'm pretty sure there's not a soul on the planet that can do a single thing about a Z-dropped banana making a slow descent on them once they have activated one of their ledge recovery options. I also prefer to punish them with banana stun once they're actually attempting to get back on stage, though; they will be in much better position for you to punish them with a F-air follow up, whereas chasing them underneath stage level once the banana smacks them while they're still hanging on isn't really as feasible and doesn't maximize potential damage output.

Besides that, I like the additional advantages you outline with Z-dropping, especially its lag-free properties.

yoshididdy said:
If you Dthrow a banana your momentum goes down with the banana so if you are trying to Dair spike them it won't work as well and you might SD. Z dropping works way better. And yea from my experience against zinc, don't cartwheel to grab bananas against Rob. Instead jump over them and shield them so you can glidetoss immediately instead of being in a position that your opponent can easily punish.

The thing about the banana Z-drop > D-air spike is that you need to consciously note where you are in the arc of your jump (more specifically, if you are still approaching the crest of your jump or if you are falling back to the ground). Premature activation of one of you aerials can occasionally cause you to accidentally re-grab your banana, voiding banana stun all together. To avoid this, make sure you drop the banana a few moments before you start falling from your jump, creating just enough space between the banana and your grab-boxes.

advent102 said:
As far as the vids go, I luved every single Up-Throw you used Cant wait to get my new vids up especially my vids where I play falco on his best stages without the use of bananas, pretty insightful. I guess great minds do think alike.

I have to admit that I really only used to use U-throw to clear my move decay queue in the past, but the emphasis you put on some possible follow-ups in our past conversations have made me develop a fondness for it. =) And LOL at spoiling your new invented technique. This is literally the fourth or fifth quirk or idea we've coincidentally overlapped on in the last few weeks.

Seriously, though - platforms are ****ing awesome.

I appreciate the additional match-up points against ROB, MK and Falco. I live with people who main all these characters, so I know these match-ups very, very well, but outside input is always nice.

Hylian · Sep 23, 2008

advent102 said:
Oh no!! He figured out one main difference in my new style of Diddy!! But naw, one day I was messing around in some friendlies against a pretty good Falco, and I was trying to figure out a TOTALLY NEW play style for Diddy that did not rely on glide toss combo's. By figuring out a few new tricks, techs, and new strategies I invented a new play style with Diddy thats been pretty effective so far. And obviously using platform stages with Up and Down throw, with bananas on platforms is a main key part in it. Ill go much deeper into it when I get the vids up. I have the vids saved to my wii but who wants to upload them for me because I dont have the equipment to do it

As far as the vids go, I luved every single Up-Throw you used Cant wait to get my new vids up especially my vids where I play falco on his best stages without the use of bananas, pretty insightful. I guess great minds do think alike.

-advent-

I would like you to teach me how it is possibile to invent a style of play.

Seriously. I'm clueless

. Is this some new smash term I haven't heard of yet? Does this play into counterpicks?

"I counter pick Advent Style" My opponent: "F***"

Advent Lee · Sep 23, 2008

Le_THieN said:
I have to admit that I really only used to use U-throw to clear my move decay queue in the past, but the emphasis you put on some possible follow-ups in our past conversations have made me develop a fondness for it. =) And LOL at spoiling your new invented technique. This is literally the fourth or fifth quirk or idea we've coincidentally overlapped on in the last few weeks.

Seriously, though - platforms are ****ing awesome.

Yea I know right, we have to stop robbing each others ideas. And Battle Field is easily becoming one of my favorite stages. I haven't really worked on Yoshi Story with my Diddy too much yet. But as far as plat form stages go, there is a lot more that goes with the new play style that I'm working on but yea that was one of the main things lolz.

-advent-

Hylian · Sep 23, 2008

Hylian said:
I would like you to teach me how it is possibile to invent a style of play.

Seriously. I'm clueless . Is this some new smash term I haven't heard of yet? Does this play into counterpicks?

"I counter pick Advent Style" My opponent: "F***"

Does this style include ignoring Hylian?

XD.

Advent Lee · Sep 23, 2008

Sorry about that Hylian, I must have not seen your post. Any ways I'm not sure if you played melee competitively but most Falco players back then played the same similar way. However a player named "Forward" found new ways to pressure with falco and even made none big platform stages like Yoshi Story good for Falco with unique usage of move sets. People didn't really realize it until he came to Florida and Lambchops and Dashizwiz sort of copied/learned from that and created the platform crazy Falco's that they have now. Now they play a TOTALLY different offensive and platform game that most Falco players play AND have found many different ways to pressure and use moves effectively that reinvented their game. Any ways its kinda hard to explain but I guess that's a sloppy example of changing a character style. Basically if everyone is doing "A" then you either make "A" that much better or do "B" or just reinvent "A" and mix in "B" to create something even better...

And yea this new style that I'm working on should definitely help in countering
counter-picking. Besides we know that most opponents ban Final Destination on us so we might as well start figuring out other good stages to use, and UNIQUE ways to abuse them.

On a side note.....WTF happened to my avatar????

-advent-

Xyro77 · Sep 23, 2008

thien. what char will u use in our mm?

oh and hylian has never played melee.

Hylian · Sep 23, 2008

advent102 said:
Sorry about that Hylian, I must have not seen your post. Any ways I'm not sure if you played melee competitively but most Falco players back then played the same similar way. However a player named "Forward" found new ways to pressure with falco and even made none big platform stages like Yoshi Story good for Falco with unique usage of move sets. People didn't really realize it until he came to Florida and Lambchops and Dashizwiz sort of copied/learned from that and created the platform crazy Falco's that they have now. Now they play a TOTALLY different offensive and platform game that most Falco players play AND have found many different ways to pressure and use moves effectively that reinvented their game. Any ways its kinda hard to explain but I guess that's a sloppy example of changing a character style. Basically if everyone is doing "A" then you either make "A" that much better or do "B" or just reinvent "A" and mix in "B" to create something even better...

And yea this new style that I'm working on should definitely help in countering
counter-picking. Besides we know that most opponents ban Final Destination on us so we might as well start figuring out other good stages to use, and UNIQUE ways to abuse them.

On a side note.....WTF happened to my avatar????

-advent-

Do you see my join date? Lol. I started playing melee competitvely in 2003.

Yes I know Forward. I have played him in person several times in fact. Last time we played we had a 3/5 MM that went to the 5th game

.

Forward however, did not create any kind of falco playstyle as you say. He is a very smart and origional player, but he didn't do as much for the Falco community as PC or Bombsoldier did.

Now don't get me wrong, Forward is better then Bombsoldier lol. But the Bombsoldier vs Ken videos were arguably the most influential smash set of all time. After those videos america as a whole got more technical. You started seeing Fox and Falco players popping up everywhere who were technically consistant. Forward was a prime example of a top Falco player. His use of lasers and platforms was phenominal. BUT, it was nothing new. Falco's still have a very common and effective playstyle.

If anything I would say Forward did more for shiek then he did for Falco.

Advent Lee · Sep 23, 2008

Hylian said:
Do you see my join date? Lol. I started playing melee competitvely in 2003.

Yes I know Forward. I have played him in person several times in fact. Last time we played we had a 3/5 MM that went to the 5th game .

Forward however, did not create any kind of falco playstyle as you say. He is a very smart and origional player, but he didn't do as much for the Falco community as PC or Bombsoldier did.

Now don't get me wrong, Forward is better then Bombsoldier lol. But the Bombsoldier vs Ken videos were arguably the most influential smash set of all time. After those videos america as a whole got more technical. You started seeing Fox and Falco players popping up everywhere who were technically consistant. Forward was a prime example of a top Falco player. His use of lasers and platforms was phenominal. BUT, it was nothing new. Falco's still have a very common and effective playstyle.

If anything I would say Forward did more for shiek then he did for Falco.

Yea I just saw your join date right before I read your post lolz. My join date says 05 but this is my second account, I think I started competitive smash in 04 though. And I agree with you, bomb soldier did influence a lot of Falco players. And I luv Forwards Sheik, especially the whole wave land to grab tech follow on a plat form. Any ways I definitely think he did more with falco than Sheik however, when it comes to creativity and usage of moves.

-advent-

Le_THieN · Sep 23, 2008

Xyro77 said:
thien. what char will u use in our mm?

Um, well, you are having this conversation with me in a thread filled with at least 30 Diddy videos. =)

I'll be using Jigglypuff.

chimpact · Sep 25, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOEKMzRHPjQ

This is a better representation of your skills. Playing someone's actual main lol. Though it was a projectile fest. 7 minutes O_O

I like how you saved all your fsmashes/dsmashes, and didn't like how you used them like 3 times a stock..... Every opportunity you got, you grabbed.

Le_THieN · Sep 26, 2008

yoshididdy said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOEKMzRHPjQ

This is a better representation of your skills. Playing someone's actual main lol. Though it was a projectile fest. 7 minutes O_O

I like how you saved all your fsmashes/dsmashes, and didn't like how you used them like 3 times a stock..... Every opportunity you got, you grabbed.

Haha, I'm surprised you found this one. That was the very last match I played with Bwett before I left that Dallas Smash-fest a couple of weeks ago. We had easily played around eight or nine matches all night long, but I can assure you the remainder of the matches looked a little more similar to this. Needless to say, I didn't lose a match to Yoshi all night, or for much of anyone else for that matter. I'm heavily considering re-evaluating the Diddy/Yoshi match-up to recalibrating it in Diddy's favor, honestly.

Bwett · Sep 26, 2008

You just wait, sir. One bad night and you are gonna change the match up because of it? I will show you the true power of Yoshi! (My powerful johns! lol)

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