Matchup Discussion Export

Greenstreet · Aug 24, 2008

Hey.

This thread is mainly to ask the Mario mainers, who know marios moves, techniques, strengths and weakness the best, what they think regarding a matchup with Sonic.
Who do they think has the advantage and why?
What whould Mario use as a set of fundamental moves against a Sonic mainer and what levels and techniques would be used to best achieve a win.

This is for the compilation of information for the Sonic matchup thread and will also be helpful as there is no matchup information on Sonic on this board at the moment. An unbiased opinion and evidence to back claims is always encouraged.

In your final judgement it would be helpful to state who was one of the following.
1. big advantage
2. advantage
3. nuetral
4. disadvantage
5. big disadvantage.

Also take into consideration the behaviour of your mario, how you act...
THANKS GUYS!

EDIT: GO HERE FOR THE OFFICIAL THREAD: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510&page=2

Matador · Aug 24, 2008

Sonic's comboability, and excellent recovery are basically what makes this matchup even in my eyes.

Fireballs work well as combo starters and is really the only thing that keeps Sonic from running all over Mario in this matchup. Fireballs outprioritize Spindash so approaching safely can become difficult if Mario properly brings the rain.

Mario's ridiculous gimping ability is always something to lean on since he can easily gimp over 4/5ths of the cast; unfortunately for us, Sonic isn't part of that large handful. Since Cape and Fludd do nothing more than help his recovery, Sonic will only risk gaining a few % upon his return to the stage. Mario, on the other hand, can be gimped rather easily by Sonic.

Sonic is also difficult to star KO because of the high percentages he lives to, so Fsmash is really the only KO attack with minimal edgeguarding to keep Sonic off. Luckily for us, Sonic doesn't have excellent KO power either, so that's not too heavy a Con for us

As for the close-range ground game, I'd give that to Mario. His jab game, double aerials, decent grab game, Bair WoP, lightening quick Dsmash and Utilt chains allow him to hold his own against Sonic, especially because of his less-than-average priority. Range is about equal throughout the matchup as well, so it's not THAT much of a factor.

Though I'd need a Sonic main to help authenticate these claims, I'd say 50:50, even. Both are deadly in the hands of a pro.

Browny · Aug 24, 2008

just on the priority/range issue before people get into it, marios dair with its ridiculous high priority gets beaten by sonics usmash, and sonics d/ftilt have surprisingly large range + priority (ftilt can cancel many attacks). Spin charge/dash will also clank with fireballs, so they will stop sonic, but wont do any damage.

ROOOOY! · Aug 24, 2008

I agree with Matador really. Though the hop of Spindash will go through fireballs with it's invincibility frames, and a Spincharge clanks with it.
Sonic barely outranges Mario, but it's not that big an issue.
It is neutral really.

hippiedude92 · Aug 24, 2008

I'd say a 50:50 as well agreed with Matador. I have yet to fight a really good Sonic though. I'll post my 2 cents later.

Greenstreet · Aug 24, 2008

ok cool. umm.. behaviour in the matchup? wud u play defensively? camp? etc etc

mario brawler · Aug 24, 2008

I play a really good sonic and what helps me the most is being aggresive,if I play defensivley I never get a hit in and I always end up on the edge
it's really hard scince sonic can run away at the speed of light and just ram back, I only camp for defensive purposes,sonic is so **** fast, sometimes I find myself saying OMG why do my fireballs have so much lag!? XD!

A2ZOMG · Aug 24, 2008

Teh_Spammerer is better than all of you and he says Mario has the advantage for sure.

Fireballs take away Sonic's number one advantage. The ability to run circles around him.

After that, Mario has way better kill moves. Sonic can almost never vertikill. Mario has a GOOD vertikill option with undiminished U-smashes. Mario's F-smash gets more range than Sonic's.

Mario can also stop most of Sonic's attacks by simply N-airing or Up-B Out of Shield.

Matador, Sonic has a hard time ledgeguarding Mario. Spring gimping is useless against Mario, and Mario's Up-B has ridiculous priority. Not something Sonic wants to challenge most of the time. Not that Mario has an easy time ledgeguarding Sonic, but he does have more guarenteed setups in the matchup IMO. If Sonic is forced to recover from below, you can easily F-smash him most of the time.

ROOOOY! · Aug 24, 2008

A2ZOMG said:
Teh_Spammerer is better than all of you and he says Mario has the advantage for sure.

Fireballs take away Sonic's number one advantage. The ability to run circles around him.

After that, Mario has way better kill moves. Sonic can almost never vertikill. Mario has a GOOD vertikill option with undiminished U-smashes. Mario's F-smash gets more range than Sonic's.

Mario can also stop most of Sonic's attacks by simply N-airing or Up-B Out of Shield.

Matador, Sonic has a hard time ledgeguarding Mario. Spring gimping is useless against Mario, and Mario's Up-B has ridiculous priority. Not something Sonic wants to challenge most of the time. Not that Mario has an easy time ledgeguarding Sonic, but he does have more guarenteed setups in the matchup IMO. If Sonic is forced to recover from below, you can easily F-smash him most of the time.

Running is a main advantage?

Sonic can vertikill, what the hell? U-smash beats out Mario's Dair, which sets him up for a U-air kill, which outranges Dair.
Mario's and Sonic's F-smashes are about the same in terms of usefulness. Mario's comes out quicker, but Sonic outranges it if stutterstepped.
And it's not hard to edgeguard Mario, simply use the spring before he can safetly UpB back to the ledge. Dthrow from the edge at high percentages sets up well for this.
So...yeah.

A2ZOMG · Aug 24, 2008

ROOOOY! said:
Running is a main advantage?

Speed to punish lag is an advantage which Mario takes away from Sonic by fireball camping. This limits Sonic to doing Homing Attacks if he wants to punish anything from a distance. Sonic's best quality I repeat is PUNISHING. If he's being projectile camped, he can't use his run or spindash speed AT ALL.

You should keep in mind, Sonic's best stage in fact is Final Destination, where he has a lot of space to run around.

Sonic can vertikill, what the hell? U-smash beats out Mario's Dair, which sets him up for a U-air kill, which outranges Dair.

U-smash is beaten by N-air or B-air. Mario's D-air beats the U-smash on the last hit, but has meh priority before that. Mario is not getting U-smashed easily anytime soon. And that's nonsense, even if he got hit, Sonic can't legitimately combo into his U-air like that.

BETTER YET, Anyone could simply SDI out of the U-smash.

Mario's and Sonic's F-smashes are about the same in terms of usefulness. Mario's comes out quicker, but Sonic outranges it if stutterstepped.

Mario can Stutter step his F-smash too y'know. Also I'm pretty sure Mario takes a bigger step, and that his F-smash has more initial range too, and the Cape can reflect the spring too.

And it's not hard to edgeguard Mario, simply use the spring before he can safetly UpB back to the ledge. Dthrow from the edge at high percentages sets up well for this.
So...yeah.

Mario's Up-B comes out frame 3, and has pretty good range, so he'll get to the ledge before that happens. The Up-B also outprioritizes the spring, not to mention Mario's U-air. He can Cape stall to mess up your timing if necessary too.

Even if you can set it up in a good position, Mario can still just hit your Spring with an aerial before he Up-Bs and destroy it.

ROOOOY! · Aug 24, 2008

Granted, spring gimping probably isn't an option.
Sonic's stutterstepped Fsmash = Mario stutter stepped Fsmash. I think the range is next to even after testing.
Getting fireball camped? Approach via a spinshot. I know Mario has good anti-air tools, but it's just a matter of getting in close really, and a spinshot achieves that. Better yet, the hop of spindash goes through fireballs.

A2ZOMG · Aug 24, 2008

ROOOOY! said:
Sonic's stutterstepped Fsmash = Mario stutter stepped Fsmash. I think the range is next to even after testing.

Y'know what, I did testing. Mario's F-smash is better by far.

Sonic's has more INITIAL range, but Mario takes such a huge step forward when he stutter steps, that it pretty much outranges Sonic's F-smash by all practical means. And just to let you know, I DID test the double stutter step too.

Mario's F-smash is indeed faster. It has more priority duh. I mean not like it will ever happen, but you can hit Sonic's hand with Mario's F-smash while Sonic F-smashes and he will get burned.

Mario's F-smash also kills at significantly lower percents in this matchup. Mario's F-smash anyhow, that kills Sonic at 105%. Mario's Up-angled F-smash kills a bit earlier at IIRC 97%. Sonic's F-smash kills at 117% no matter which way it is angled.

And btw, Mario's non-sweetspotted F-smash always kills at 10% higher than usual. That still makes it a stronger kill move than Sonic's F-smash.

I looked vaguely into the D-smash, and to sum it up, Sonic's has some more range and kill power. Mario's is faster and does more damage, and I think a little more safe on block due to being faster.

Getting fireball camped? Approach via a spinshot. I know Mario has good anti-air tools, but it's just a matter of getting in close really, and a spinshot achieves that. Better yet, the hop of spindash goes through fireballs.

I guess he could, but it's nowhere nearly as desireable as Spindashing or Dash attack. Besides, Mario can fullhop Fireballs to control the air, you forget. =P

And besides, Sonic risks eating a N-air if he approaches that way, because Mario's N-air beats like almost all his attacks except the properly spaced U-air.

ROOOOY! · Aug 24, 2008

Yeah I just had a few games against a Mario online and Mario's Fsmash is indeed better.
Sonic's Dsmash is better though, for the reasons you mentioned. xD
I find spacing while on the ground really important against Mario, D-tilt's and F-tilts helped me no end, considering their suprisingly decent priority.
The reason I think it is neutral though is simply because they cancel each other out. Their general strengths are cancelled out by the others defenses.
For example, two of Mario's key assets are juggling with aerials and edgeguarding. Edgeguarding is ineffectual against Sonic because of his multiple choices regarding recovery, and juggling with aerials doesn't really work because you can just spring away into a lagless Dair where you can do whatever out of it.
Sonic likes to combo once he gets people into the air too (a'la ASC combos) and that's ruined too because of Mario's high priority aerials breaking out of it so to speak.
So when it comes down to it, it's a pretty scrappy fight usually. Characters have to rely on the simple side of things. Both characters grab games are good, Sonic's spacing is slightly superior, but Mario can usually kill slightly (only very slightly) earlier than Sonic.
IMO it's 55-45 in Mario's favour, that's generally considered neutral though. Both characters just cancel each other out. Feel free to disagree but I can't see what one character has over the other.

Matador · Aug 24, 2008

djbrowny said:
just on the priority/range issue before people get into it, marios dair with its ridiculous high priority gets beaten by sonics usmash, and sonics d/ftilt have surprisingly large range + priority (ftilt can cancel many attacks). Spin charge/dash will also clank with fireballs, so they will stop sonic, but wont do any damage.

Thanks for the input, wasn't that sure of it.

You're my fav 08 poster, always intelligent and whatnot.

Greenstreet said:
ok cool. umm.. behaviour in the matchup? wud u play defensively? camp? etc etc

Mario usually has to play defensively or camp against characters with better defensive games than him. Characters like Wolf, Ness, Link, and G&W are examples of this. Sonic's defensive game isn't bad enough for mario to the point where we'd have to camp. Playing aggressive in this matchup is pretty safe, but it'll differ from Sonic to Sonic.

A2ZOMG said:
Teh_Spammerer is better than all of you and he says Mario has the advantage for sure.

Blunt, but true :laugh:

A2ZOMG said:
Fireballs take away Sonic's number one advantage. The ability to run circles around him.

After that, Mario has way better kill moves. Sonic can almost never vertikill. Mario has a GOOD vertikill option with undiminished U-smashes. Mario's F-smash gets more range than Sonic's.

Mario can also stop most of Sonic's attacks by simply N-airing or Up-B Out of Shield..

Never tested the undiminished Usmash against Sonic, so I'll have to take your word for it. If this is the case, then maybe it's something we should be keeping unstaled in this matchup because of how difficult it is to land an Fsmash without epic mindgames.

Sonic's upB -> Uair is pretty effective for star KOs. Utilt and Usmash are good setups for that and are relatively easy to land on Mario. Other than that, no arguments here.

A2ZOMG said:
Matador, Sonic has a hard time ledgeguarding Mario. Spring gimping is useless against Mario, and Mario's Up-B has ridiculous priority. Not something Sonic wants to challenge most of the time. Not that Mario has an easy time ledgeguarding Sonic, but he does have more guarenteed setups in the matchup IMO. If Sonic is forced to recover from below, you can easily F-smash him most of the time.

Indeed, since he can't really sweetspot. Still, a smart Sonic would use one of the options unique to his recovery, and recover high to prevent edgeguarding. Sonic still has many other edgeguarding and gimping options outside of the spring, which still works if they use it any time before the upB.

Keep in mind, A2ZOMG probably has twice the experience against Sonic that I do. Take his word over mine.

Edit @ ROOOOY!: I'd have to disagree with the better spacing. Both have epic bairs, but Mario can fit 2 into one shorthop with minimal lag. Along with that, he can shorthop dairs and nairs to create a pseudo WoP effect. Tack on the fireball, and I'd give the spacing game to Mario.

Kanzaki · Aug 24, 2008

Fireballs > Sonic. That is all :]

Mario and Sonic are even at best, but I believe Mario has more of an advantage.

Matador · Aug 24, 2008

Kanzaki said:
Fireballs > Mario. That is all :]

Mario and Sonic are even at best, but I believe Mario has more of an advantage.

Fireballs > Mario? I thought Mario = Fireballs?

Nice one Kanzaki XD

Kanzaki · Aug 24, 2008

I fail at multi tasking ><

On the phone + Eatting + Reading/Typing.

ROOOOY! · Aug 24, 2008

Ahh I meant spacing on the ground, shoulda made that clearer >_<

Edgeguarding's a big things for both characters, and none can really do it well. Kinda runs along my idea of cancelling each other out.
The pivotal thing in this match-up is really the fireballs, forcing Sonic to approach. He has quite a few options though. Even if it's just running in and shielding the fireballs that come his way (obviously the worst way. Spindash hop goes through them and you could do a spindash jump after that hops ended. Spincharge clanks with them. Spinshot is the best idea really, as it sends Sonic at quite a trajectory and very fast so fireballs will most probably not hit. The only problem with that is that it puts Sonic in an unfortunate position, in the air. You could always make it so you could hit the ground before you're in range of Mario's air game though.
Surely that's not enough to turn an otherwise neutral game into advantage Mario, is it?

P.S. Matador your sig is awesome xD

Matador · Aug 24, 2008

ROOOOY! said:
Ahh I meant spacing on the ground, shoulda made that clearer >_<

You were clear, I always count SH aerials as part of Mario's ground game because they hit airborne and ground opponents. Completely grounded, Sonic's Ftilt pwns spacing.

ROOOOY! said:
Edgeguarding's a big things for both characters, and none can really do it well. Kinda runs along my idea of cancelling each other out.
The pivotal thing in this match-up is really the fireballs, forcing Sonic to approach. He has quite a few options though. Even if it's just running in and shielding the fireballs that come his way (obviously the worst way. Spindash hop goes through them and you could do a spindash jump after that hops ended. Spincharge clanks with them. Spinshot is the best idea really, as it sends Sonic at quite a trajectory and very fast so fireballs will most probably not hit. The only problem with that is that it puts Sonic in an unfortunate position, in the air. You could always make it so you could hit the ground before you're in range of Mario's air game though.
Surely that's not enough to turn an otherwise neutral game into advantage Mario, is it?

I agree completely, and remember that I personally think that the matchup is even. A2ZOMG has more experience, however, and probably has more factors than the previously mentioned in mind when he says "adv Mario".

ROOOOY! said:
P.S. Matador your sig is awesome xD

Much appreciated there, sir :chuckle:

Greenstreet · Aug 24, 2008

As for sonic having other gimp options it can be very hard to do because of the super jumps massive priority, fairly certain that fairs or even rar dairs get beaten out given marios timing is appropriate. this having been said i think that it is entirely possible, but probly too situational.

my only other query regard priority of moves is a mario bair to a sonic utilt? only on break atm and cant really test it, cud that be a defense against that almighty move?

ROOOOY! · Aug 24, 2008

I've put my wii away for the night so I can't test it :3
(It's 1:30am here, I'm english)
If that doesn't work, what about an up angled f-tilt?

Greenstreet · Aug 24, 2008

errrr i gotta do 5 more hours then i'll let u know...
thanks for all the input here btw

A2ZOMG · Aug 25, 2008

Greenstreet said:
my only other query regard priority of moves is a mario bair to a sonic utilt? only on break atm and cant really test it, cud that be a defense against that almighty move?

Dunno about priority. Mario's B-air is better though. He can use it TWICE in a SH. Makes a nice brickwall.

Greenstreet · Aug 25, 2008

if it all possible could i again grab more on behaviour a2zomg. such as places you will hang out on a stage, when you will attack or when will you hang back? ie how do you treat sonic? not so much which moves beat out sonics moves, but which ones u certainly will be using in a game...such as approaches/techniques etc
sorry if i am being too specific, i am after complete information thats all

if u would like u can post on the actual thread too: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510
btw i am only really interested in which will get priority wen used against each other..... let me go check it out now.

Browny · Aug 25, 2008

well it appears the usual no priority/range arguments never dies, so Ill bring some actual facts to this thread.

all of sonics ground moves outrange marios moves repectively. Sonics jab and grab outrange marios jab + grab. Sonics d/ftilt outrange marios ftilt by quite a bit. Sonics normal fsmash has slightly more range, and they both seem to have the exact same speed of release. if the two fsmashes clank, marios will hit sonic if they are right next to each other. If they are any range > marios sweetspot fsmash alone, sonics fsmash will hit mario while he takes no damage (it appears that marios hurtbox is actually attached to the fireball when you test this)

Sonics jab, dtilt, ftilt, utilt, fsmash and bair all cancel out the fireball. His usmash, utilt and uair all beat marios dair (there were some inconsistencies, it seems the priroty on marios dair changes during the attack, but in the majority of test, it was beaten by all three of those attacks). Sonic can escape any utilt chains immediately with a spring (as in, mario can only get a single utilt off at 0% before he is hit with a spring to do 4%) Mario can KO sonic about 10-15% earlier with his main finishers vs sonics finishers, and sonic can homing attack from beneath mario while hes recovering which hits very often for an easy gimp for low % KO's (you cant cape this when it hits from below)

Mario wins out in bair, uair and nair in terms of how quick they are/high priority, but sonics longer ranged uair and bair will always beat them if they are properly spaced.

but enough on the boring stuff. I would say this is in marios favour if it werent for sonics abiliy to properly gimp his recovery. Sonics dair can semi spike and is a guaranteed KO if mario is his by this off stage and homing attack from below avoids the cape and sends mario very far away from the edge. In a scrub v scrub match id expect mario to win often but against a sonic player who knows exactly how to space HA/dair for off-stage kills, sonics weakness in getting on-stage KO's is nullified to an extent.

i guess ill just bandwagon and call it even lol

Greenstreet · Aug 25, 2008

yer the semi spike can work as itll hit off at a 30 or 60 percent angle, often putting mario out of range of recovery, plus has can also finish off but is risky. hey dj, i;d appreciate if u threw that post, or something similar with ur argument in the Sonic Board thread for it. There hasnt been as much responsiveness and i think what u have there is pretty good.
thanks in advance.
heres the link if u need: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510

A2ZOMG · Aug 25, 2008

djbrowny said:
all of sonics ground moves outrange marios moves repectively. Sonics jab and grab outrange marios jab + grab. Sonics d/ftilt outrange marios ftilt by quite a bit. Sonics normal fsmash has slightly more range, and they both seem to have the exact same speed of release. if the two fsmashes clank, marios will hit sonic if they are right next to each other. If they are any range > marios sweetspot fsmash alone, sonics fsmash will hit mario while he takes no damage (it appears that marios hurtbox is actually attached to the fireball when you test this)

Mario's F-smash comes out faster than Sonic's F-smash, has more range due to stutter step factor being greater, and it has more damage and knockback.

Sonic's ground moves do indeed have better range than Mario's, but Mario's are usually faster. Mario also has better aerial control than Sonic and the ability to use two aerials in one short hop.

Sonics jab, dtilt, ftilt, utilt, fsmash and bair all cancel out the fireball. His usmash, utilt and uair all beat marios dair (there were some inconsistencies, it seems the priroty on marios dair changes during the attack, but in the majority of test, it was beaten by all three of those attacks). Sonic can escape any utilt chains immediately with a spring (as in, mario can only get a single utilt off at 0% before he is hit with a spring to do 4%) Mario can KO sonic about 10-15% earlier with his main finishers vs sonics finishers, and sonic can homing attack from beneath mario while hes recovering which hits very often for an easy gimp for low % KO's (you cant cape this when it hits from below)

You are not going to consistently cancel Mario's fireballs with attacks, because if they hit the wrong part of your body, they will still hurt you. Mario's D-air has more priority on the final hit. Mario is more likely to N-air you if you are U-smashing though. Mario's N-air is very difficult for Sonic to work around due to the high priority and lingering hitbox and low landing lag. Mario's D-air is more likely to be used for persay punishing rolls, or hitting people that might be above him.

but enough on the boring stuff. I would say this is in marios favour if it werent for sonics abiliy to properly gimp his recovery. Sonics dair can semi spike and is a guaranteed KO if mario is his by this off stage and homing attack from below avoids the cape and sends mario very far away from the edge. In a scrub v scrub match id expect mario to win often but against a sonic player who knows exactly how to space HA/dair for off-stage kills, sonics weakness in getting on-stage KO's is nullified to an extent.

Sonic's D-air however is really easy to see coming. He's not going to land it often if at all. If he misses with it, he is left without any more options to punish Mario's recovery.

Like seriously, Mario is not easy for Sonic to gimp at all. Mario of course really can't gimp Sonic that much, but he is significantly better at scoring KOs. Basically Mario's better KO power and the ability to camp Sonic give him at least a 6/4 advantage. Sonic is left without any truly solid advantages in this matchup. As I said gimping Mario isn't very easy for Sonic. Sonic does have more range, but Mario gets to camp Sonic, and Mario generally has significantly better air control in close quarters that Sonic has a hard time answering.

Greenstreet · Aug 25, 2008

here are some vids that show a bit of why i dont think fireballs are a problem. and a bit of gimping at the end

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgo3un_2aI

most videos are similar to this
like this 1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH2qF95XaMY

but i think the reason u think mario is weighted in this amtchup is because the sonics u have played have never implemented alot of the tactics which work..

hippiedude92 · Aug 25, 2008

The first video with Mario, that Mario is total garbage lol.. I think also the Marios you played never implemented alot of the tactics which work o_O. He hardly SH fireball'd.

Matador · Aug 25, 2008

They weren't that bad. A good Sonic can make a great Mario look pretty bad; almost like what Diddy does to his opponents.

Perhaps we could get Teh_Spammerer in here to argue his case on why it's adv Mario, he's pretty pro.

Kanzaki · Aug 25, 2008

First Mario was horrible, lol. Second Mario was decent, but still pretty bad. If you want to show a video where fireballs aren't a problem, show a video of a Mario spamming it, not of a Mario using it like a total of 3 times?

I live in Southern Cali, I don't know of any good Sonic players, and I don't believe in WiFi ><

hippiedude92 · Aug 25, 2008

Er I believe in Wifi! :D Well it's the only thing I can play atm. I live in NY if any great sonic players want to play. I just played one today, the only problem I have is encountering is his speed. Makes abit things harder to score KOs.

But where are we in this discussion btw? o.o.

Kanzaki · Aug 25, 2008

I PLAY WiFi, but I don't believe in it :]

People that I destroy in person are on par with me in WiFi.

ROOOOY! · Aug 25, 2008

Sonic's pretty awful on wi-fi, you can't combo at all. Timing's off on everything, so i avoid it as much as possible.
I WOULD give a Mario main a game I guess but I live in England so the lag would eat both our souls.

mario brawler · Aug 25, 2008

the mario did'nt fireball enough,and he kept using a fair for everything other than tryinf to meteor

A2ZOMG · Aug 25, 2008

Greenstreet said:
here are some vids that show a bit of why i dont think fireballs are a problem. and a bit of gimping at the end

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgo3un_2aI

most videos are similar to this
like this 1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH2qF95XaMY

but i think the reason u think mario is weighted in this amtchup is because the sonics u have played have never implemented alot of the tactics which work..

Watched the first vid. I honestly feel that Mario was playing very poorly and didn't have much control over what he was doing online. He didn't spam fireballs nearly as much as he should have and other dumb things like charging smashes when Sonic was two miles away from him. He didn't Up-B or U-smash out of shield to punish Sonic at moments, shot Fireballs the wrong way, and used F-airs in bad places. The one thing he did right was N-air at close range.

I have played Sonics online that can combo me, do spinshots, and run circles around me with spindashes, and I've beaten them with Mario. I have noticed in all of my matches that Mario survives a really long time against Sonic, and that this matchup definitely requires a learning curve.

Granted the only Sonic I played offline wasn't playing that well at the time, but still, my point is I have actually played this matchup.

Greenstreet · Aug 25, 2008

yer i was thinking he didnt fireball much wen i first watched it.

A2ZOMG · Aug 25, 2008

Matador said:
Perhaps we could get Teh_Spammerer in here to argue his case on why it's adv Mario, he's pretty pro.

Hey, look, I already asked him and he clearly stated that Mario's fireballs stop Sonic from running circles around him. I don't like bothering him twice on the same issue since I know he doesn't really like Brawl that much. =P

And it should really make perfect sense. I did ask him to analyze Sonic for me to. Sonic for the large part relies on running, spindash, and Up-B. This makes him very good at punishing attacks, and that's of course his strongest point, since he's not so good at scoring KOs, and his priority is pretty lousy, and his ledgeguarding is so-so at best. When Mario throws fireballs, they stop Sonic from running or spindashing. Hence, it puts limits on his main advantage.

mario brawler · Aug 25, 2008

100% succsess

Greenstreet · Aug 25, 2008

hmmm i am definitely startin to swing with wat u r sayin... cant see anything sonic can do conistently to gain an advantage or even guaranteed hits

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