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~ Wolf's Match-Up's ~
- Thread starter ~ Gheb ~
- Start date
Popertop
Smash Champion
I thought Falco could still chaingrab Wolf until like 60%?
Popertop
Smash Champion
Ugh. Gross.
THat's as bad as what he has against Wario.
Actually, worse I forgot he can spike the **** out of you.
I feel sorry for Wolf mains now.
THat's as bad as what he has against Wario.
Actually, worse I forgot he can spike the **** out of you.
I feel sorry for Wolf mains now.
I think Wolf can get out somewhere near the 40's. Either way, it's still a tough matchup knowing you can get CG'd to death from basically anywhere on the stage anywhere below 40% or so.
Edit: Wario can Smash DI Up and towards Falco somewhere near the 30's I believe and avoid an Usmash. IDK if Wolf has that same chance though.
Edit: Wario can Smash DI Up and towards Falco somewhere near the 30's I believe and avoid an Usmash. IDK if Wolf has that same chance though.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Chaingrabs are so annoying. Against falco you pretty much have to change your fighting style to avoid getting grabbed.
So many people can chaingrab wolf. Even bowser has some grab combo where he can end it with B-left.
So many people can chaingrab wolf. Even bowser has some grab combo where he can end it with B-left.
At least you can DI bowsercide to keep it on the stage. The falco boards have a chaingrab project, or something similar, it lists wolf as getting out at 45% iirc, and after that Nair probably will get you out, maybe fair or reflector. Also, this was mentioned somewhere else, if the falco messes up the chaingrab, SUPPOSEDLY spotdodge is your fastest option.
If falco tries to jump out and bair you for a gimp, reflector him, try to bring him down with you. Footstool him if you think you're cool enough.
If falco tries to jump out and bair you for a gimp, reflector him, try to bring him down with you. Footstool him if you think you're cool enough.
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
I'd give this matchup 70:30. Simply because of the chaingrab, if you get grabbed, you're going to get spiked >_> From there it really isn't difficult to edgehog Wolf's Up B...
The key to this matchup: Don't get grabbed, or change characters.
Other than the CG spike, better recovery, better ledgegame and a better laser, Falco doesn't really have all that much on Wolf, it's just the spike. >_< UNfortunately said spike is amazingly effective.
Wolf can kill better than Falco, Wolf's heavy, Falco's light. And Falco's Fsmash is more difficult (But, a smart player will always manage to get off) to get off than Wolf's Dsmash.
But Falco just owns Wolf... so I'll give it 70:30 with the spike. 65:45 with the chain grab until 40% and then Dash attack -> Upsmash (That's about 64% give or take each stock) and 60:40 with the just the character itself.
All in all, it's in Falco's favor >_>
The key to this matchup: Don't get grabbed, or change characters.
Other than the CG spike, better recovery, better ledgegame and a better laser, Falco doesn't really have all that much on Wolf, it's just the spike. >_< UNfortunately said spike is amazingly effective.
Wolf can kill better than Falco, Wolf's heavy, Falco's light. And Falco's Fsmash is more difficult (But, a smart player will always manage to get off) to get off than Wolf's Dsmash.
But Falco just owns Wolf... so I'll give it 70:30 with the spike. 65:45 with the chain grab until 40% and then Dash attack -> Upsmash (That's about 64% give or take each stock) and 60:40 with the just the character itself.
All in all, it's in Falco's favor >_>
I honestly agree with ArcPoint, the only advantages Falco has would be the chaingrab, ledgegame, and lasers. Everything else breaks more or less even, maybe even an advantage for wolf. If you don't get grabbed and do well at reflecting the lasers and intelligently spam perfectly spaced bairs, you can actually win. Its just that doing so is a lot easier said than done. Falco's fsmash is easy to see coming, just use reflector to counter it. Falco has more difficulty than wolf when it comes to killing, besides the spike. Does anyone know if you could fastfall out of the chaingrab when he's about to spike you, jump up and reflector, and then edgeguard falco? The falco I play with still needs some chaingrab work, but if that was possible, this matchup could be almost even.
chronoize
Smash Journeyman
i have to agree with gheb on this one. though it might not seem like it, i consider falco's ariels better.
his neutral air is obviously better than wolfs,
bair is faster,
u air and KO better,
everyone knows falcos dair spike is better than wolfs
and only fair is in wolfs favor.
now grounds game,
both fsmashes can be predictable and has lag afterwards, but falco is strongers and has more knockback i believe, while wolf's faster,
falco's upsmash is faster i think,
Wolf wins in dsmash
tilts go to falco again
up tilt has a better hitbox and is more effective than wolf's but less ko potential
wolf's ftilt is really laggy, and easily chain grabbed
wolf d tilt has more range right?
b moves
falco has better spamming lasers
reflector is to different to compare, one for spacing, one for defense/stun?
up b and side be are means of recovery so i wont get into that.
i say falco has more moves at his disposal that's better than wolfs, thought without CG its still possible just like any non 0-death matchup.
his neutral air is obviously better than wolfs,
bair is faster,
u air and KO better,
everyone knows falcos dair spike is better than wolfs
and only fair is in wolfs favor.
now grounds game,
both fsmashes can be predictable and has lag afterwards, but falco is strongers and has more knockback i believe, while wolf's faster,
falco's upsmash is faster i think,
Wolf wins in dsmash
tilts go to falco again
up tilt has a better hitbox and is more effective than wolf's but less ko potential
wolf's ftilt is really laggy, and easily chain grabbed
wolf d tilt has more range right?
b moves
falco has better spamming lasers
reflector is to different to compare, one for spacing, one for defense/stun?
up b and side be are means of recovery so i wont get into that.
i say falco has more moves at his disposal that's better than wolfs, thought without CG its still possible just like any non 0-death matchup.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
In my opinion, Falco's grab game on Wolf is so good he doesn't -need- anything else. If Falco plays smart and -just- tries to set up his grabs, he'll pretty much be guarenteed to score a KO. A smart falco might ledge camp to force an approach to bring wolf into the best position for a full stage length chain grab. Oh yay. Whats worse, is that the design of some stages makes this -ever worse- for Wolf. If wolf tries to DI away frmo the Dair, he runs a high risk of getting gimped by the ledges of Pokemon Stadium 2 and Final Destination. If he DIs towards the stage, Falco edgehogs his Up B. If he goes down or air dodges, he falls too quick or gets edgehogged anyway. Of course, if he gets spiked he's equally screwed.
In my opinion, you're only hope is to out camp Falco and play as gay as you possibly can until about 50-60 % in which case you have guarenteed ways out of the CG. Until then, at 40-45 the escapes are situational with Shine working sometimes and spot dodge and Nair working as well, but for some reason this does not seem to be consistent. Pick stages that mess with Chaingrabbers and try to avoid counterpicking anything with a ****ed up edge to make your recovering prospects even worse.
In my opinion, you're only hope is to out camp Falco and play as gay as you possibly can until about 50-60 % in which case you have guarenteed ways out of the CG. Until then, at 40-45 the escapes are situational with Shine working sometimes and spot dodge and Nair working as well, but for some reason this does not seem to be consistent. Pick stages that mess with Chaingrabbers and try to avoid counterpicking anything with a ****ed up edge to make your recovering prospects even worse.
§witch
Smash Lord
Wolf has a better bair, and fair. Wolf's ftilt is more useful, as they both have lag afterwords, and yes, his dtilt has more range. Wolf's reflector is more useful, falco's is ****. Both have bad up bs, but falco's side b is used quite a bit by good falco players. After he can't cg anymore, he still has plenty of options out of his dthrow, boost smash>nair>follow. Falco could still beat wolf even without chain spikes, but wolf's can still be annoying.
snadmonkey
Smash Journeyman
lawl at saying falco's air game is even close to wolfs. Wolfs bair and fair are so much better than falco, then wolf has way better DI than falco giving him huge advantage there. The falco dies at like 90% from cstick'd downsmash, if it wasn't for chaingrab, wolf would have this matchup ez.
Falco's nair is definitely better, and his bair is faster, and the dair *****, but all wolf needs is to properly use bair IMO. Falco's nair combos into utilts and grabs and AAA, just to name a few, so I think the air battle is more of staying at the right distance. Falco's uair has mediocre range, so you can aviod it with your DI since falco has crappy air maneuverability.
Falco's Fsmash has a sweetspot which doesn't have the best range ever, so it's easier to avoid than his other smashes. Dsmash has less range and power than wolf's. Wolf's usmash and fsmash are more for damage reasons, wheras falco's are used more as killing options.
Tilts, falco's utilt is better but otherwise it's pretty close. I find that ftilt for wolf works best when spaced so that you only get the second hit, otherwise its not very useful. Wolf's dtilt outranges falco's but falco's is faster, and it knocks enemies into the air for a nice followup. Falco's reflector is a pain, but it does leave him vulnerable. His recovery is worse IMO because it lacks distance. SHDL > blaster, but blaster is tougher to reflect for a hit because of its range.
CG makes it near impossible to win, but as InfernoRage said, play gay. It's not AS bad of a matchup if you just play really really gay. Suck up damage from lasers until he's close enough to take advantage from the stun for a grab, run away, suck up more damage from lasers until you're past CG %, then keep running, reflectoring falco when he takes to the air from your front or shoots lasers from a distance, and spacing bairs when you have your back to him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying wolf has the advantage either way, but it can be compensated to some extent.
Messing with Falcos when they are recovering is helpful too. Does anyone have a move that they use to intercept Falco out of the illusion?
Falco's Fsmash has a sweetspot which doesn't have the best range ever, so it's easier to avoid than his other smashes. Dsmash has less range and power than wolf's. Wolf's usmash and fsmash are more for damage reasons, wheras falco's are used more as killing options.
Tilts, falco's utilt is better but otherwise it's pretty close. I find that ftilt for wolf works best when spaced so that you only get the second hit, otherwise its not very useful. Wolf's dtilt outranges falco's but falco's is faster, and it knocks enemies into the air for a nice followup. Falco's reflector is a pain, but it does leave him vulnerable. His recovery is worse IMO because it lacks distance. SHDL > blaster, but blaster is tougher to reflect for a hit because of its range.
CG makes it near impossible to win, but as InfernoRage said, play gay. It's not AS bad of a matchup if you just play really really gay. Suck up damage from lasers until he's close enough to take advantage from the stun for a grab, run away, suck up more damage from lasers until you're past CG %, then keep running, reflectoring falco when he takes to the air from your front or shoots lasers from a distance, and spacing bairs when you have your back to him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying wolf has the advantage either way, but it can be compensated to some extent.
Messing with Falcos when they are recovering is helpful too. Does anyone have a move that they use to intercept Falco out of the illusion?
TKD
Smash Lord
25-75 against Falco? That's only accurate if the spike always hits. It doesn't ALWAYS hit, does it???
If it doesn't, which I hope so, the matchup should be marked 30/70 or 40/60.
If it doesn't, which I hope so, the matchup should be marked 30/70 or 40/60.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
But then again you can time your b-air too right?
Yeah, but in theory, you have to predict better since his bair comes out faster. But instead of trying to time the bair better, why not use reflector?
I mean, in all honesty, be as annoying as possible in this matchup. Whenever falco is in the air use reflector for invincibility, when on ground make sure you perfectly space bairs to avoid shieldgrabs. And then just rinse and repeat, with some blasters when you don't want to approach or sitting with reflector to prevent laser damage. I seriously think that if you're annoying enough, you can win, but its a LOT easier said than done. Once you get CGd (or even grabbed with DAC) things get ugly, so its all about not getting grabbed while frustrating your opponent. Falco's reflector will also be annoying because of his range for hitting you after a bair, but nothing else should mess up this playstyle if done perfectly.
For #s, I'd go 65:35 Falco, simply because of CG + spike/DAC. Not completely unwinnable, but it just takes such dedication to pissing off your opponent to the extent that wolf can win.
I mean, in all honesty, be as annoying as possible in this matchup. Whenever falco is in the air use reflector for invincibility, when on ground make sure you perfectly space bairs to avoid shieldgrabs. And then just rinse and repeat, with some blasters when you don't want to approach or sitting with reflector to prevent laser damage. I seriously think that if you're annoying enough, you can win, but its a LOT easier said than done. Once you get CGd (or even grabbed with DAC) things get ugly, so its all about not getting grabbed while frustrating your opponent. Falco's reflector will also be annoying because of his range for hitting you after a bair, but nothing else should mess up this playstyle if done perfectly.
For #s, I'd go 65:35 Falco, simply because of CG + spike/DAC. Not completely unwinnable, but it just takes such dedication to pissing off your opponent to the extent that wolf can win.
I might be exaggerating. Honestly, its probably likely I am exaggerating because I have never played a very good Falco. 30:70 Falco is probably the right number, but I still think that if you can out-gay falco by a ridiculous margin you should win (if it's possible to do so), but that would take ridiculous precision. Where we are now though, 30:70 seems about right. Maybe in the future it'll change, but only time will tell.
Arc also said it was 30:70 and since my original assumption of 25:75 isn't that far off either, I might as well setlle with 30:70.
For the coming match-up's in the future: I will always update "tier-wise" from now on, that means next char = MK followed by Snake (until the Falco discussion is over of course)
For the coming match-up's in the future: I will always update "tier-wise" from now on, that means next char = MK followed by Snake (until the Falco discussion is over of course)
We should also check stuff in other character's matchup threads too, since we might miss some things cause we don't main the other character. Maybe just a link on the front, if anyone wants to see their point of view, since technically, we're biased >___> And who knows, maybe we missed something. It seems that few who don't main wolf actually want to show up on our boards and help us out...
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
What exactly do the Falco boards say?
I remember SK92 saying Wolf was one of his easiest match-ups, so it's at LEAST 70:30. I wouldn't quite call it 75:25 because a good Wolf player can avoid the grab fairly well. But it's still quite obviously in Falco's favor.
I remember SK92 saying Wolf was one of his easiest match-ups, so it's at LEAST 70:30. I wouldn't quite call it 75:25 because a good Wolf player can avoid the grab fairly well. But it's still quite obviously in Falco's favor.
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
Lol, it IS 100:0 if you get chaingrab spiked each stock. However a smart Wolf will probably do his/her best to avoid said grab... so I don't think it's that horrible. But DEFINITELY an uphill battle.
Bad for the obvious reasons, and by that I mean almost everything. The laser and shine can work against the tornado, and you might as well forget about aerials, if the MK spaces it right you can't touch him. Fastfalling a shine is what I use to return to the stage since it can bring you through his attacks with the invincibility frames and still hit him with the attack. Ummmm I think bair clashes with glide attack, if that's useful to anyone. That's all I can think of right now, so I'll just wait for that post Turbo Ether said he'd put up...
Yeah, it's used as an approach sometimes, but at least this way you can limit their options. Laser isn't going to **** since MK can dodge it well, but at least its a projectile, so better than nothing :/
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
I disagree with the "How to beat him section" saying to Bair spam. His Fair will go right through your Bair unless he messes up his spacing and you make contact with his hurtbox. Fair is a much better poke against MK, with it's range and better disjointed hitbox. Spaced correctly, your Fair can beat his Fair, which happens to be his best aerial approach.
General info:
If you get knocked into the air and the MK pursues, the invinciblty on Wolf's shine is clutch for getting your feet back on the ground. Don't forget that shine also beats tornado.
SH Fair is great for spacing and poking. Also great for intercepting a MK trying an aerial approach. Don't forget that you're much faster in the air than him.
Learn how to punish him. His Dsmash, Upsmash and last hit of Ftilt are punishable on block with your Fsmash. If he spaces Fsmash incorrectly, you can punish with jab. Never challenge his Fsmash with a melee attack.
His Dtilt is nasty, Fsmash does go over it. I'm pretty sure Ftilt does too. Not sure how practical this is, but it's good to know.
If you ever have to UpB to the ledge, you'll die because his Dair knocks you right out of it. You need to make sure your DI is on point when you get knocked off the stage.
The best stages to ban against him are Luigi's Mansion, Rainbow Cruise and Skyworld.
Any stage that makes it harder for him to edgeguard you is a viable counterpick.
Uptilt and Upsmash provide you with additional kill moves since he's so light.
Spacing, and knowledge of your attack properties, mixups and hitboxes are important because MK is great at punishing lag.
This is all I can think of right now. His disjoints can be dealt with if you have intimate knowledge of Wolf's properties, because you have a few of your own.
General info:
If you get knocked into the air and the MK pursues, the invinciblty on Wolf's shine is clutch for getting your feet back on the ground. Don't forget that shine also beats tornado.
SH Fair is great for spacing and poking. Also great for intercepting a MK trying an aerial approach. Don't forget that you're much faster in the air than him.
Learn how to punish him. His Dsmash, Upsmash and last hit of Ftilt are punishable on block with your Fsmash. If he spaces Fsmash incorrectly, you can punish with jab. Never challenge his Fsmash with a melee attack.
His Dtilt is nasty, Fsmash does go over it. I'm pretty sure Ftilt does too. Not sure how practical this is, but it's good to know.
If you ever have to UpB to the ledge, you'll die because his Dair knocks you right out of it. You need to make sure your DI is on point when you get knocked off the stage.
The best stages to ban against him are Luigi's Mansion, Rainbow Cruise and Skyworld.
Any stage that makes it harder for him to edgeguard you is a viable counterpick.
Uptilt and Upsmash provide you with additional kill moves since he's so light.
Spacing, and knowledge of your attack properties, mixups and hitboxes are important because MK is great at punishing lag.
This is all I can think of right now. His disjoints can be dealt with if you have intimate knowledge of Wolf's properties, because you have a few of your own.
Azure Rune
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2006
- Messages
- 251
..........
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Apparently you can Uptilt MK out of Tornado.
Does utilt only work when he's above you, or does it also work when you are both at the same level? Just imagine the look on a MK's face from getting KO'd by utilt out of the tornado....... even thinking about it makes me so happy 
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
It's not worth it, it's just nice to know.
Just wanna point out how that i'm liking the way the Marth boards split their match up discussions into different threads. It keeps the board busy and it makes it easier to contribute information to older match up discussions.