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FAST got it right.

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
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(First of all this is not a Brawl vs. Melee thread (If this turns into one, so help me God...), this is a 'Let's get off our behinds and save Melee thread).

After reading Jack Kieser's thread in General Brawl Discussion 'The Final Nail: Why Brawl Can't Be Blamed for Melee's Problems' it got me thinking.

Instead of sitting around on SWF (Something I do an unhealthy amount of every day), arguing about who's fault it is as to the decline in Melee's popularity, we really should be discussing what it would take to get the competitive Melee scene back on track.

And so I believe that FAST got it right.

Many of the arguements being made in the aforementioned thread revolve around people (Melee Vets) being attracted to money, and being more willing to play Brawl for money, than play Melee and probably lose.

So my question is this:
Would Melee Vets be more willing to attend tournament that include both games?

My answer is:
Yes, probably.

Okay, so now you're thinking something along the lines of 'Duh idiot, this already happens'.
So why is Melee still in decline?

I'd say it's because the ratio of people willing to host these combined tournaments is far less than those only willing to host Brawl. Over the course of a single day, you'd be lucky to finish singles and doubles for Brawl, let alone Melee as well.

For Melee to survive in the long term, tourneys that support both games in the way FAST did needs to happen.

To take an extreme example, I'll take my own situation.

What I said in Jack Kieser's thread said:
I'm at a geographical disadvantage. Living in Australia, with a Melee scene that started up well after Melee's release (At least, in my state), I'm lucky that a competitive Melee scene was ever established.

Brawl bought us online Wifi play.
Where do people go to set up online play?
Forums.

And thus the boatloads of Brawl age scrubs flocked to this website. Giving 'smash' as we know it, a significant boost in popularity.

Now, this was my state's chance to really boost the 'smash' scene in general. The console is popular (FYI, cube wasn't in Aus), the game is still new and everyone is still playing it (By everyone I mean casuals, etc.).

So, for the sake of heightening the competitive, combined smash scene in general, I decided to direct my state's first Brawl + Melee tournament, and should the expected numbers hold true, it should prove to be one of the largest in QLD and Australian history (It's in my sig, and don't laugh, 65-70 is ALOT for Aus).

Had I not decided to organise something of this scale, Brawl's competitive scene would still be nearly non-existent in my state, alot of people would never have discovered competitive smash, and Melee would still be floundering in limbo.

For me, it's less about favouring one game over the other, but keeping the competitive scene of both alive, for the chance that perhaps one day Melee will rise to its former popularity.
Now I realise that what I'm asking is for TO's everywhere to step up and follow the lead of FAST. And it's a tall order. With hundreds of people to co-ordinate over 4 days, **** happens, for lack of a better way to put it. And the money. It's not cheap to organize a 4 day event to be sure. I'm going to be placing $750 - $850 on my faith that I'll be recouping everything back on the day of the tournament I'm organizing at the moment.

So consider this:
If Smash is capable of producing so much money, it should warrant bigger tournaments.

So this means bigger tournaments, with room for Melee and Brawl. A tournament that can offer this as FAST did, will attract those great players as well. We must use Brawl, as a means of enhancing the 'smash' scene in general. I'm not saying that we should all be organising 4 day events. But I am saying we should be organising bigger and better tournaments in light of the larger smash scenes that have emerged. (Selfish as that is of me to say).

Now I never claim to be right, and right me if I'm wrong, which I most probably am. But this is just the way I see it for now.

This is all food for your thoughts to munch on. Like that thread I wrote on Tournament Pricing Mentality which never received a reply :laugh:

I'm just sitting here hoping that somehow another golden year of smash could happen given enough support in the competitive community. Talking about a tournament a world away that I could only read about with piqued interest.

I do spend an unhealthy amount of time on here, Intermittently 7:30am to 4:30pm weekdays at work and for about 3-4 hours after work. I need some kind of nicotine patch.
 

KosukeKGA

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 4, 2007
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2,165
Location
Phoenix, AZ
More Brawl only tourneys need to hold Melee as a side event too. Stop being so spiteful you nonchalant TOs! >:[

 

Falconv1.0

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
3,511
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Talking **** in Cali
As someone who actually prefers Brawl, I whole heartedly ****ing agree. Melee is ****ing amazing, and I want to it outlive the Wii ****it.. That will be the one thing we can point to as something good when Nintendo has taken the skill out of every game they could possibly think of.
 

C@sH Mooney

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
3,721
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Probably playing TF2.
The only time I will be playing brawl now is if its at a Melee tourney.

I mean I'll play it, but I won't ever travel for brawl. Only for melee.

So yes. Having melee and brawl at tourney's would be awesome.
 

Gishnak

Smash Ace
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Mar 24, 2008
Messages
726
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San Luis Obispo
Agreed. As extra evidence, we can look at me.

I used to play Melee. I learned some advanced techs, played with my friends, and that was fun and all. Then Brawl comes out. I'm at a time in my life where going to tournaments and being a competitive gamer is much more possible, so I play Brawl competitively. It's fun. Then I look back to Melee, and realize I should try it competitively. It kicks ***. Now I'm going to immerse myself in the Melee tournament scene.

So Brawl added one competent player to the Melee competitive scene.
 

Wuss

Smash Champion
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While I agree that tourneys hosting both games are great ideas, cause legitimately everyone wins (well there's that one guy...). However, I personally would never go to the brawl days of a bi-game tournament. I know that if i could go, I would only go for melee. That being said, I would rather tournaments just had melee, because then it really is the main event, and anyone that can only go for one day wouldn't have to make a choice between better game or better chance of money or whatever. IMO, if big tournaments want to have both games, great. If slightly smaller tournaments want to have just melee, than that would be the sex. Melee only tourneys need to make a comeback as well, otherwise we run the risk of it always playing second-fiddle to brawl. (what a strange phrase...)
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
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The way I see it, as long as one scene remains alive, the other will too. Brawl and Melee cannot simply seperate, and it would take the complete collapse of competitive Brawl for Melee to rise up on its own two feet. But I don't see this happening.

It would be great if Melee returned full force by itself across the map, but it's not a notion that many TO's are actively willing to follow through on (Not just throw support behind)

Bigger events, offering full sized tournaments like FAST for both Melee and Brawl.
Its the only way to get Melee back on track.

Agreed. As extra evidence, we can look at me.

I used to play Melee. I learned some advanced techs, played with my friends, and that was fun and all. Then Brawl comes out. I'm at a time in my life where going to tournaments and being a competitive gamer is much more possible, so I play Brawl competitively. It's fun. Then I look back to Melee, and realize I should try it competitively. It kicks ***. Now I'm going to immerse myself in the Melee tournament scene.

So Brawl added one competent player to the Melee competitive scene.
And this is a success story that could be repeated, but yeah.

Bigger tournaments are viable because of the expanded scene for smash.
By including Melee in these larger tournaments, the Melee scene can re-establish itself.

That's the point I'm trying to make.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
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vyse, we <3 you. You hit the nail right on the head, man. Looks like all that time on SWF has paid off, eh? :laugh:
 

Hyper_Ridley

Smash Champion
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Hippo Island
I fully agree with you. Even though I prefer Brawl, playing Melee again recently made me relaize that it deserves to live too.:)
 

otg

Smash Master
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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
I sincerely approve of this thread. There is no reason not to hold tournies for both, and it pisses me off to no end to have people tell me "Brawl is the future, Melee is done, gtfo". Well excuse me, there is no reason both can't exist and we can use these tournies to get people into both scenes (Melee players checking out Brawl tournies and vice versa). This could be a really powerful movement, I just hope that people catch on.
 

Doggalina

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I haven't been to a tourney period, but I know that whenever I go to a Brawl tourney, I'll be bringing a copy of Melee with me.

And what about 64? It has a small online community, but it seriously deserves some love.

EDIT: For all of you wondering why people still love Melee, go watch I Killed Mufasa...now.
 

Grunt

Smash Master
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Agreed. As extra evidence, we can look at me.

I used to play Melee. I learned some advanced techs, played with my friends, and that was fun and all. Then Brawl comes out. I'm at a time in my life where going to tournaments and being a competitive gamer is much more possible, so I play Brawl competitively. It's fun. Then I look back to Melee, and realize I should try it competitively. It kicks ***. Now I'm going to immerse myself in the Melee tournament scene.

So Brawl added one competent player to the Melee competitive scene.
Oh yeah, vyse is too.
 

Frames

DI
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Wow. I'm glad you guys got so much out of my tournament. In hosting this, our initial idea was to create a massive 4 day tournament that could satisfy the needs of both melee and brawl players. We knew that brawl would attract a large crowd locally, but we really wanted people to travel for this, so we tried to hype up melee as best as possible. I think that as long as people keep hosting melee tournies people will always go. I know FAST 2 will follow the same formula as this year, so that we can keep the smash scene going.
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
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@Everyone: Aww, I <3 Smashboards.
Has my time on smashboards paid off?
I hope so. In fact, the most I've benefitted from this website is the Creative minds forum ironically. Maybe one day I'll write a book entitled 'Smash: A comprehensive history'.

Wow. I'm glad you guys got so much out of my tournament. In hosting this, our initial idea was to create a massive 4 day tournament that could satisfy the needs of both melee and brawl players. We knew that brawl would attract a large crowd locally, but we really wanted people to travel for this, so we tried to hype up melee as best as possible. I think that as long as people keep hosting melee tournies people will always go. I know FAST 2 will follow the same formula as this year, so that we can keep the smash scene going.
And I'm sure it will be an even bigger success than this year. There are so many people that I'm sure are kicking themselves for not making FAST, and will probably make the trip next year for sure. Hell, even I'd strongly consider making the trip if I've got the money. I've never been to America :laugh:

Now it's a matter of which TO's can step up to emulate FAST's success.
I'll certainly be trying my best, but it's up to North America to lead the way.
 

Smooth Criminal

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:p

I'll be at the next FAST tourney...

So long as TGMTSBCO doesn't get in the way.

Edit: In all seriousness, though, this is a great mindset to have. Props to you, Vyse. Though it is a rather obvious solution it's good to have somebody rehash it like this and put it in perspective.

Smooth Criminal
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
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:p

I'll be at the next FAST tourney...

So long as TGMTSBCO doesn't get in the way.

Edit: In all seriousness, though, this is a great mindset to have. Props to you, Vyse. Though it is a rather obvious solution it's good to have somebody rehash it like this and put it in perspective.

Smooth Criminal
Thank you Smooth Criminal.

I am rather hesitant at times to post threads, but I really felt that arguing about who did what had to stop at some point.

This is a shoutout to TO's out there. If you you can justify it within your own means, hold Melee tournaments at your Smash tournaments. Melee won't return full force by itself, but it will return as apart of the smash franchise.

Throughout this thread I've used the term 'Smash' not Melee, not Brawl. It's up to us, to everyone to unite under the same banner. We all accept that people have personal preferences. It's okay to appreciate a shiny new game, and to like playing it competitively because it's popular. It's okay to be a Veteran that can appreciate a well balanced fighting game with a throughly explored and deep metagame.
And it's okay to like SB64 just because Isai does, I know I do

For me at least, it's just 'Smash' in any flavour.

I do agree with this despite I do not want to be a competitive Meleer but a competetive Brawler. Bet wavedashing would hurt my hands. Nah I think Brawl is simply easier to get it on, but go meleers!
Aura Power's positive outlook is what I was talking about above :)

The fact that this thread is getting so little rep is saddening.
rep thread nao!

i hope everyone follows this too>.<
Rate Thread Tool FTW
 

Proverbs

Smash Lord
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Feb 21, 2008
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I was thinking of doing this before I gave up on Brawl. I wanted to host a tournament featuring all three games. Now I'm a little hesitant to play Brawl, I just don't like the game. But I will back up anyone trying to get a Brawl and Melee tournament up and running. I might see if I can get some funds together something like this while I'm up in Boston this year.

If anyone's interested in helping out with that idea, PM me. Let's not just say this is a great idea or post and then do nothing. Let's get on doing this now.

I do spend an unhealthy amount of time on here, Intermittently 7:30am to 4:30pm weekdays at work and for about 3-4 hours after work. I need some kind of nicotine patch.
I know what you mean. I used to do that too. You should...go outside or something. Or read a book. I feel like I need to do something productive with my life whenever I sit on these forums for too long.

Anyway, I'm out.
 

Flex

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
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64
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Austin Texas
Melee is always the side tourney when both games are involved.Look at TGMTSBCO.It had about as many melee entrants as Fast did Brawl.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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el paso, New mexico
Dang wish I was around for this conversation. I'm actually going to be hosting my first tournament soon and since I booked an entire day I'm going to try to squeeze melee into my time frame. I actually booked the whole day so I'm pretty sure I can make it right?

How long would a say 50 singles and doubles brawl tournaments last? and melee?
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
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Dang wish I was around for this conversation. I'm actually going to be hosting my first tournament soon and since I booked an entire day I'm going to try to squeeze melee into my time frame. I actually booked the whole day so I'm pretty sure I can make it right?

How long would a say 50 singles and doubles brawl tournaments last? and melee?
Well, it all depends on how many stations you're going to set up (And I'm assuming you're going to run double elim for the tournaments).

If you think about it, you should be able to work it out mathematically.

Say each set will take no more than 20 minutes. This includes the players finding each other, setting up at a station, playing their matches, dealing with everything else like counter picks and stage strikes...

Multiply that 20 minutes by the amount of sets to be played in a single round, and then divide that by the amount of stations available.

Then you would have to work this out for each round in the tournament.

So with 50 people, that's 25 matches in the first round of play:

25 x 20 = 500 minutes.

500 minutes divided by say, 10 Station's = 50 minutes.

Obviously this formula would change with each round past the second round with an ever decreasing amount of players. (Also, I'm not 100% sure this formula is right, I just thought it up on the spot).

If you've got enough TV's and enough hours in the day, you should be able to run all 4 tournaments with really tight scheduling.

I plan to have Melee and Brawl Singles and Doubles over the course of about 15 hours.
 

SamDvds

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Messages
734
if anyone is still doubting the future of melee tourneys or the decline in it's popularity u should check out the list of ppl attending darkrain's melee tourney in october ;) its turning into a national tourney (check the midwest forums) plug over :)
 

billyandrocky

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
13
now I'm not the hugest Melee fan due to the faster pace and bigger focus on advanced techniques. But I know there are more people who do enjoy those. Both should be allowed to live.
 

payasofobia

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
2,232
Location
America!
**** melee and brawl, where's my 64?

.....

Anyway, this is a great idea, using brawl's popularity to gather attention to melee, I like that, hell, maybe I will help the cause too.
 
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