Stage Advantages for Characters Chart

The phanna chart and the new chart in the tactical discussion have both been really successful in inspiring a great degree of interest in advantages in individual character matchups, and they got me to thinking about stage advantages. A lot of people seem to have trouble figuring out which stages are their good counterpicks (let alone which stages are good to counterpick against others!), and stage legality discussions don't have anything in the way of tools to look at how stages offer advantages and disadvantages all around.

I'm proposing this as a project for us here to fill in this chart. If you want to help, please post a fair and objective analysis over a character you are familiar with's general chances on a given stage (or a set of stages). "Ignore" the opposing character in the same way a character matchup analysis tends to ignore the stage (consider playing against a wide variety of plausible characters and averaging the result). A bit of justification is useful (to both demonstrate that you know what you're talking about and to give someone looking at the chart the ability to question it competently). I'm using a 1-7 rating system.

1 - This stage is nearly unwinnable for this character in the abstract and should be avoided at all costs.
2 - This stage is substantially biased against this character and will require far more effort than usual to win on.
3 - This stage is somewhat unfavorable for this character but not in an extreme way.
4 - This stage is about neutral for this character.
5 - This stage offers somewhat of an advantage for this character but isn't extreme.
6 - This stage offers a large advantage for this character and is likely among his best picks.
7 - This stage is nearly an automatic win for this character.

Obviously 1/7 should be really rare and most ratings would be in the 3-5 range.

Do note that I know more about this than I'm posting to start; I'm just limiting myself to what I'm most confident about as I know people who main different characters and have had different experiences will likely better understand and have better insights. In order to start it with some more substance, I enlisted the help of my online friend Colin to do the Ness stuff so he can take credit (or blame?) for those.

Oh, and as a minor detail, the stages WarioWare, New Pork City, 75m, Mario Bros., and Temple are being ignored for this project. These radical stages are extremely hard to evaluate, and they will be banned in any reasonable setting.



Reasonings:

R.O.B.:

Luigi's Mansion (6): The pillars don't block his laser, and his down smash is ridiculously abuseable in the lower area. His up smash hits up through the ground as well; this stage's terrain offers him effective cover from enemy threats while not giving foes anywhere to go to defend against R.O.B.'s threats.
Castle Siege (5): The statues allow for laser spamming, and the walk-offs are above average for R.O.B. thanks to his throws. The transitions to the first and third form are especially nice for R.O.B. as he can spam safely with the knowledge that many characters would just be setting themselves up for a spike if they tried to approach. The first form also has a nearly perfect platform layout for R.O.B. as the ground is just the right degree of elevation to let him shoot straight line lasers over it, and he can up smash to hit both raised platforms.

Olimar:

Skyworld (1): This is a laughably bad stage for Olimar as he almost always is completely unable to recover when knocked down through the clouds which, against a skilled opponent, is pretty frequent.

Falco:

Bridge of Eldin (6): Falco can spam lasers across the entire stage for incredible benefit, and his chainthrow can exploit the walk offs effectively.

Jigglypuff:

Green Hill Zone (6): Jigglypuff's Rollout is nearly completely safe here due to the shape of the level and her ability to use the checkpoint as a safe haven for charging it. Her forward throw can also sometimes exploit the walk off.

Ness:

Battlefield (3): Platform layout limits use of pk thunder 2 and reduces utility of aerials. On the other hand, the yoyos can hit characters on the platforms from the ground.
Final Destination (5): Lots of room for creative use of pk thunder / pk thunder 2. Also possible to spam it from across the stage against some characters.
Delfino Plaza (5): Temporary walk off edges allow for early kills with back and forward throw. It is possible to bring pk thunder underneath the transport platform allowing for pk thunder 2 trickery. Temporary water allows for spamming of pk thunder (against some characters). Ness's spike is very dangerous in temporary water.
Luigi's Mansion (5): Pk fire can be used on the lower pillars indefinitely until the top is destroyed, making it difficult to approach Ness. The down tilt can also be used on these pillars to quickly restore all moves. If the opponent is caught in the fire, both the up tilt and the up smash are devastating, especially if the opponent missed a tech. From the centre of the bottom, pk thunder can be used to attack characters on the higher level. The back throw can kill from the centre and the edges before the house is destroyed. On the other hand, pk thunder 2 use is limited.
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (3): The scrolling nature of this stage prevents camping the walk offs and the large amount of narrow pits can be devastating to be knocked into by a move with horizontal knockback.
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 (3): Ness cannot effectively camp the top section, cannot camp the walk offs, and cannot really use pk thunder at all due to the large amount of blocks.*
Mario Circuit (6): The edges can easily be camped allowing for low damage kills with the throws. The up aerial kills at fairly low damage from the top part of the stage. The back aerial also kills at good damage near the sides. The platform layout does not impede pk thunder 2 use and pk thunder 2 kills very early on this stage.
Rumble Falls (5): The edges are extremely near which allows for some low damage throw kills. Pk thunder 2 is surprisingly not that limited and kills at very early damage.
Bridge of Eldin (4): The walk off edges allow for low damage throw kills, but the stage is so big that you will not be that close to the walk offs all the time. Pk thunder camping is also a bit limited because of the size of the stage. Pk thunder 2 kills later than usual because of the stage size. When the stage splits, pk thunder camping is possible though.
Pirate Ship (5) - The water can be camped, using pk thunder to force the opponent to approach. The down aerial sends the opponent well before the water, and additional hits as they rise are usually forced. Pk thunder also goes through the edges of this stage, allowing for tricky kills should you choose to leave the water.
Norfair (5): It is possible to move pk thunder through the platforms allowing for the use of pk thunder 2 in a wide variety of different directions. The ceiling is low enough that the up aerial kills at low damage. The edges are near enough that the back throw kills at very early damage from the far platforms.
Frigate Orpheon (4): The flipping of this stage can screw recovery randomly, but the platform layout allows for tricky use of pk thunder.
Yoshi's Island Brawl (3): The sloped shape is problematic for pk fire as well as some other moves. The shy guys interfere with pk thunder, both in offensive use and recovery. The random ghost platform can screw pk thunder 2 recovery. The size of the stage is small enough to limit pk thunder 2 along the ground.
Halberd (4): Back throw kills at better damage than usual due to the relative size of the stage. The part of the stage in the air allows for creative use of pk thunder. Pretty negligible advantage though.
Lylat Cruise (3): Platform layout limits use of pk thunder, but not as bad as Battlefield. However, the tilting can randomly screw recovery.
Pokémon Stadium 2 (5): In the ice form, pk thunder 2 goes extremely fast along the ground and is difficult to punish. The conveyor belt form allows for the spamming of pk thunder if the centre is controlled. The halved fall speed form allows for easy pk thunder juggling.
Spear Pillar (6): Ness can effectively run the loop because of the arc his double jump takes. However, he does not really have a move that is good for peppering the opponent with damage while running away.*
Port Town Aero Dive (4): Standard pk thunder 2 trickery applies as pk thunder passes through most of the platforms on this stage. However, Ness can sometimes find himself in a position from which it is difficult to recover even though it was safe when he started using pk thunder. The occasional walk offs are dangerous and difficult to exploit.*
Castle Siege (4): The walk offs are easily camped for low damage throw kills, but the opponent isn't forced to approach unless the statues are destroyed so that pk thunder can be spammed. The statues are destroyed pretty easily though with the down tilt which also restores all of your moves. Throw kills are also possible during the transitionary form. The first and third form are pretty benign, except for the above average ceiling height on the third form which makes the up aerial kill a lot later than usual, and also the back throw easy to survive until higher damages with the proper DI.
Distant Planet (5): The walk off can be camped, but this has to stop when it starts raining. The platform layout does not impede the use of pk thunder 2. Up aerial kills at relatively low damage due to the location of the stage relative to the upper blast zone.
Smashville (4): The edges of the stage actually allow pk thunder to pass through, allowing for interesting edge guards. On the other hands, the balloons can mess with pk thunder.
Summit (4): Ness can easily be edgeguarded on this stage because he cannot sweetspot the ledges. However, pk fire has extremely high implied priority and beats out all opposing sliding forward and up smashes along the ice part of the stage.*
Skyworld (2): Ness's recovery is screwed horribly on this stage.
Flat Zone 2 (5): The near edges allow for low damage throw and pk thunder 2 kills. The up aerial kills at relatively low damage.
PictoChat (4): Pretty benign.
Hanenbow (4): Ness can keep away from the opponent fairly well, and his up aerial kills at low damage from the top left section of the stage. He cannot use pk thunder effectively, however.
Shadow Moses Island*(3): Although Ness's up aerial is a threatening vertical kill move, the ceiling is too high on this stage to use it effectively, especially since the opponent can choose to hang around on the bottom if they have the*advantage and Ness cannot force them to the top. This means that Ness is forced to destroy one of the walls in order to kill via one of his horizontal kill moves such as the back throw. The walls respawn quickly, and the opponent will always*interfere with the destruction of them.
Green Hill Zone (5): Ness can use pk thunder to camp the checkpoint.
Yoshi's Island Melee (5): The near edges allow for low damage throw kills. The low ceiling allows for low damage up aerial kills. Pk thunder 2 eats through blocks and kills at very low damage.
Jungle Japes (4): Ness has a hard if not impossible time recovering from the left of this stage, but all told that is pretty insigificant since it affects most other characters as well.
Onett (5): The left edge can be camped with pk thunder, and the up aerial kills easily. The centre platform layout does not really impede pk thunder 2 use.
Corneria (5): The lasers from passing ships can heal Ness substantially. The forward throw can kill from the edges of this stage at low damage. The up aerial kills at low damage.
Rainbow Cruise (4): Throws can kill off the sides at some parts of the stage, but pk thunder use is really limited.
Green Greens (5): Pk thunder camping on the sides is moderately effective. The up aerial kills at low damage. The back throw kills at low damage. Pk thunder 2 kills at extremely low damage. The down smash can kill on the sides of this stage at low damage.
Big Blue (4): When using pk thunder 2 to land on the cars, Ness usually lands such that he can use his get up attack ("piston kick") which makes this fairly easy to spam against some opponents. Back throw kills at fairly low damage. The landing lag of pk thunder 2 can make it difficult to survive landing on the road.
Brinstar (5): The near blast zones combined with the destructible environment give rise to extremely low damage pk thunder 2 kills, with a larger than usual hitbox thanks to said destructible environment.
Pokémon Stadium (5): Both pk thunder and the forward aerial go through this stage, allowing for interesting edge guards as well as a sure way of getting back onto the stage by dropping below and using the forward aerial *through* the stage.

Mr. Game & Watch:

Battlefield (4): This stage doesn't offer much for or against Mr. Game & Watch. The platforms allow great use of the fishbowl, but they limit the key.
Final Destination (4): Mr. Game & Watch doesn't really care about the most abusive projectile spammers here thanks to his bucket, but he lacks any moves that can exploit the long linearity of the stage so it really doesn't affect him much at all.
Delfino Plaza (5): The bottom of this stage allows Mr. Game & Watch a great pressure game with his up special, and the temporary water allows him to abuse the combination of his key and up special very effectively. If he can trap foes in the narrow areas of the "pillars" form, he can quickly rack up a lot of damage this way.
Luigi's Mansion (5): Mr. Game & Watch's down smash allows him to control huge amounts of space in the narrow confines of the lower area, and he can use his fishbowl to both pressure the upper rooms and to break the upper pillars should he need to do so. The "weak" hit of the down smash allows Mr. Game & Watch to score kills here even when the full mansion is still there.
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (5): The very close blast zones allow Mr. Game & Watch's powerful smashes to kill even earlier than they usually do, and the scrolling stage allows Mr. Game & Watch to abuse his very slow throw animation to turn his forward and back throws into surprising kill moves. The advantage is somewhat limited by characters like Snake who can force him into unwise approaches here very easily.
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 (6): Mr. Game & Watch can still exploit his throws here, and the massive number of blocks both prevent him from being forced to approach and allow him to use his up special and key to maneuver in a way most of the cast cannot. Basically, he can move wherever he wants while most other characters can only make plodding progress here.
Mario Circuit (2): Mr. Game & Watch cannot use his throws to much of any gain relative to the walk off ledges while most other characters can use them well. The platform layout is poor for him to exploit the fishbowl, but it severely inhibits the key. The cars here seem to scale up knockback on low weight characters more than most other kinds of knockback so Mr. Game & Watch's low weight is more problematic here than on most other stages, and the combination of Mr. Game & Watch's long throw animation and need to tech chase out of his down throw make them more disruptive to him than to most other characters.
Rumble Falls (5): Mr. Game & Watch can use his up special to very quickly ascend the falls which allows him to stay very low on the stage completely safely if he so chooses. The close horizontal blast zones make the weak hit from the down smash especially effective at scoring kills.
Bridge of Eldin (3): Mr. Game & Watch both cannot exploit the walk offs and cannot do anything to take advantage of the huge size or the occasional divide in the stage. This leaves him vulnurable to the plethora of characters who can exploit these things, and the fact that his smashes are relatively poor at killing here is a problem for him.
Pirate Ship (7): Mr. Game & Watch can camp in the water for an absurd positional advantage; his up special makes him literally unapprochable by much of the cast. It also allows him to key with complete safety, and the ability to pass up through the bow of the ship opens up some trickery with his up special for attacking onto the stage.
Norfair (6): The small platforms allow for great abuse of the down smash, and the pass through platforms greatly help the up special. His down smash also allows him to completely control the pod for the wave of lava, and his fishbowl lets him harass opponents inside the pod should they get themselves locked in without him.
Frigate Orpheon (4): The pass through ledge on the right of the first form allows for some trickery with the up special, but the flipping can occasionally force under the stage from which he has few tools to survive. Otherwise the stage doesn't offer much to him in terms of advantages or disadvantages.
Yoshi's Island Brawl (4): The small size allows for good pressure with his smashes and generally great range, but the central platform allows some characters to camp against him with surprising effectiveness. Of course, he gains some with the ability to fishbowl through the platform so he can control it whenever he wants to, and the platform also can allow well spaced turtles to be especially threatening. The support ghost really doesn't help him at all, and it occasionally saves characters he was keeping off the ledge. All in all, everything about balances out for him here.
Halberd (5): This is a really solid level for Mr. Game & Watch as he can attack up through the platform during the aerial portion of this level, and the close blast zones greatly help his smashes. His up special allows him to avoid the claw and laser at the last moment, and his long throw animation can be used to effectively force opponents into hazards. The small dip in the aerial portion of the stage allows him to effectively duck under some linear projectiles for total impunity.
Lylat Cruise (4): The tilting doesn't really matter for him one way or another, and the platforms help some and hurt some. All in all it's very neutral for Mr. Game & Watch.
Pokemon Stadium 2 (5): It's a solid stage for Mr. Game & Watch as he gains something from all four transformations. The ground transformation allows for amazing use of the key and turtle as the barrier is spaced just right to optimize Mr. Game & Watch's space control. The flying form allows him to quickly maneuver via the key and up special while most other characters are unable to move much in the air. The electric form allows for great spamming of the Chef projectile if he controls the center, but the downside is that his throws don't work on the conveyors due to the long animation. The ice form allows for him to do incredibly deadly sliding forward and up smashes, and his turtle is very effective at punishing other characters who try to do sliding smashes.
Spear Pillar (2): Spear Pillar is a stage with a loop that focuses on horizontal mobility which is already bad for Mr. Game & Watch, but the kicker is that the ledge is just barely too high for Mr. Game & Watch to leap over without grabbing it which drastically slows down his loop running time. The general trajectory of his double jump is poor for this stage. The size of the lower area is too large for him to control nearly the whole area but too small for him to position effectively.
Port Town Aero Dive (5): His up special both exploits the pass through floors and allows him to escape from the cars quickly and safely. His long throw animation can force foes into the cars as well.
Castle Siege (4): Nothing on this stage really affects Mr. Game & Watch all that much. The small size of the first form is helpful, the walk-offs on the second form are in the way, and the third form is nearly completely neutral for him.
Distant Planet (5): Mr. Game & Watch can pressure from below the stage amazingly effectively here with both his fishbowl and up special. The presence of that bit of land below the main platform allows him to perform far more drastic under the stage tricks than most stages allow. He can easily hit opponents who are on the leaves with a devastating up smash, and his down smash can trivially control an entire leaf. The walk off is bad for him, but the rain negates this issue.
Smashville (4): The moving platform gives him rare opportunities to apply a little extra pressure with Chef, but otherwise this stage doesn't really do much for or against Mr. Game & Watch.
Summit (6): Sliding smashes are deadly as always, and Mr. Game & Watch can jump in the water to bait the fish and then easily escape with his up special while the foe might not be able to escape at all. The key allows Mr. Game & Watch to easily navigate the low gravity section of this level.
Skyworld (7): Mr. Game & Watch's down throw spikes through the clouds which gives him an insane offensive advantage. He is also extremely adept at breaking platforms, and his great and quick vertical recovery let him recover from below the stage better than most.
Flat Zone 2 (5): The close blast zones are great for Mr. Game & Watch's smashes, and his down tilt lets him effectively set off the people on the Oil Panic form. Chef is great on the Lion form, and given the unique mechanics of the tamers, his weight ends up not hampering his survivability here at all.
PictoChat (4): He can use the wind drawing to get spikes with his down throw, and he can use his large disjointed moves to exploit a few other drawings. However, this is a pretty minimal advantage considering the sheer number of drawings; most of the time, this stage is neutral for him.
Hanenbow (5): Mr. Game & Watch's incredibly vertical mobility lets him stall here for a long time, and his ability to pressure from under leaves is of high value. However, due to his lack of ability to quickly move horizontally and his lack of a long range projectile, he is far from the best at abusing this level.
Shadow Moses Island (3): This stage is pretty bad as Mr. Game & Watch can't exploit the walls or walk-offs well at all while the walk-offs are very prone to be used against him. One might expect an Onett like effect with the teching, but the stage's ceiling is just way too high for it to be as effective as on Onett. Mr. Game & Watch's game is still playable here, but it is hindered.
Green Hill Zone (4): This stage gives some help and has some problems. Mr. Game & Watch's huge disjointed hitboxes help him play around the checkpoint better than most, and his Chef projectile is surprisingly effective from behind the checkpoint. However, to counter that, he must contend with the walk-offs which really aren't good for him, and the slopes make it harder for him to get kills. All in all, it about balances out.
Yoshi's Island Melee (3): The blocks severely restrict Mr. Game & Watch's ability to score kills while being in just such a height as to minimize his ability to control space. The very near left and right edges are a real pain for him as well, and the breakable middle area is really restrictive for the key.
Jungle Japes (5): Mr. Game & Watch loves the small platforms from which he can land many, many down smashes (especially after a down throw) and deter approaches with Chef.
Onett (5): Mr. Game & Watch can camp the lower center of this stage to effectively prevent many characters who mostly kill horizontally from finishing him while his up smash and down smash sweet spot ensure he has no trouble scoring kills himself. The down throw is good at forcing you both to be hit by cars which helps him when he is ahead.
Corneria (6): Three of the Arwing lasers in the bucket makes an instant kill Oil Panic, and he can absorb them just from standing on top of the Arwings.
Rainbow Cruise (5): Mr. Game & Watch can nimbly and adeptly maneuver around this stage while pressuring oppoents with his great air game.
Green Greens (6): Mr. Game & Watch can camp the small platforms for drastic gains and can use the spacing of the platforms to spam Chef very effectively. He can especially gain by pressuring foes on the small platforms to approach from above which is a perfect set-up for an up special. The very close blast zones also allow him to kill very early with his very powerful smashes.
Big Blue (5): The small size of the cars allows Mr. Game & Watch to abuse his down smash heavily here, and the uneven ground allows for the turtle to become an even better than usual obstacle to progress. His up special allows him to survive the track better than most.
Brinstar (3): The shape of the ground with the divide caused by the breakable terrain severely inhibits the utility of both Mr. Game & Watch's down throw and down smash. The acid helps everyone recover which hurts Mr. Game & Watch (who would have had no trouble either way), and it limits his ability to abuse the pass through floor. The breakable section of the course severely restricts the utility of the key as well.
Pokemon Stadium 1 (4): Mr. Game & Watch can camp the rock form somewhat better than most, and his duck lets him manuever around the windmill pretty well. However, in general, this stage doesn't really offer him much while simulataneously not really hurting him.

Snake:

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (7): Snake can take cover around the blocks while spamming his grenades which kill at very low percentages here. The ridiculously low ceiling makes his up tilt even crazier than it usually is, especially since he is so effective at forcing approaches.
Flat Zone 2 (7): Snake can not only exploit the small size with his great tilts and fatal projectile, but he can use his mines and grenades to exploit the Oil Panic and Lion forms for drastic benefit.

Sonic:

Green Hill Zone (6): Sonic's spin moves can be spammed to a pretty stupid extent thanks to the shape of the ground, and his back throw kills early on the flat ground. His high speed allows him to seize control of the checkpoint frequently.
Rainbow Cruise (2): Sonic has almost no ground on which to run which all but erases his usual edge in mobility. This forces him to try to make more aerial approaches that rely on range, power, and priority, all of which Sonic lacks.

I'll do my best to keep it updated, and thanks in advance for criticisms, intelligent discussions, and contributions. I'd be more than happy to elaborate on any issue I was unclear on.

Wow, nice work. It seems like it would be better if you color coded the characters or put a picture by them like the character match-up chart. Also, it seems as if every character's stage benefits them.

Keep up the good work

I'm guessing you main Ness and G&W. >_> Just something I noticed, but if those are indeed your Mains, it looks like you showed a bit of favortism... those two only have maybe three stages each at which they're bad at (Ness is only marginally bad at his). But then again, I guess there's only so much effet a stage can have. Great job thus far.

Though I don't play as him any more, I can tell you Dedede has an automatic 7 on Mushroomy Kingdoms 1-1/1-2, Mario Circuit, Bridge of Eldin, Shadow Moses, Flatzone 2, Onett, and Green Greens. The reason is obvious.

Maybe GHZ and Melee Yoshi's Island too, but I can't remember if he can chaingrab up the slopes or not.

I haven't updated the image yet, but I added in the descriptions for all of the rest of the stages with Ness and Mr. Game & Watch (we had to play some matches on those levels, which we very rarely played, to finalize our feelings about them). About the visuals of the chart, I intend to improve it later on, but I think it's too much work for now given that there is still such a level of data that it's easy to read.

About the "biases" toward our characters, I don't think that's really true. I averaged the scores we gave, and I got a score of 4.3 with Ness and 4.6 with Mr. Game & Watch. It's not unreasonable for a character like Ness with such a non-traditional attack plan as Pk Thunder (and his power on walk-offs thanks to his throws) to benefit a little more from an assortment of stages (and that really is just a little), and Mr. Game & Watch just has the "he's really good!" factor with the note that he's so good because of how many different circumstances he can take advantage of (as opposed to being good for being a specialist at one or two things). I'm sure this would approach a more even balance as characters like Olimar who do very poorly on a lot of stages began to be factored in.

About King Dedede, I think you're overvaluing the chainthrow for a few reasons. For one, the portion of the cast it doesn't work on is really significant (it's not just 1 or 2 characters), and you have to remember to factor out Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Samus who were going to lose when he grabbed them on almost any stage. The second factor is that a lot of those stages have big things in them that prevent abuse. On Mario Circuit, the cars passing overhead while he is chainthrowing will hit him in the head. On Onett, the cars interrupt in general. On Green Greens, you could just break the blocks before approaching, and I think the wind messes things up anyway. The Bridge of Eldin is occasionally divided and has King Bulbin (given how long the bridge is and how long it takes to chain across the whole thing, he is a factor). I'm pretty sure he can't chainthrow at all on Yoshi's Island melee (up the slope that is; he can chain fine on the small flat area), and I think Green Hill Zone is conditional on which side of the slope you are on and which character you have (as in the list of characters isn't the same as his standard list). Distant Planet is the same way; I know he can't chainthrow Marth on that slope but can still chainthrow some other characters. I mean, yeah, those are all good stages for him, but 7 was designed to be a very drastic number which is probably too much if the stage isn't supporting his non-chainthrow game as well.

A Stage match up chart? Sounds interesting. May I direct you to this thread for Peach's stage match ups?

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=184660

It's not complete yet and I could do with more feedback and it's out of 10 rather than 7 but I imagine it would help with your chart

I still think you need to organize the information so it can be read easily.

once this is completed, it's gonna be REALLY hard to read

This is for ROB. Thanx to Sudai. Colors: Blue>Green>Yellow>Orange>Red

Sudai said:

* Battlefield - Not a bad Neutral. Good against smaller characters. Easy USmash through platform. It's not worth a ban unless you're up against an Ike, really.
* Castle Siege - I've only played here once or twice in a tourney match. 1st Stage: Stick a gyro somewhere and you control half the stage. Hah. Try to fight on the right side as it's easier to gimp people on that side with the ledge. 2nd Stage: Camp all day. Gyro's get stopped, but it can't help you like it does on Luigi's since there's no ledges. 3rd Stage: Wide open. Not really flat. The non-flatness can mess with an opponent picking up your gyro. Transition: Flat flat flat open.. Overall? I wouldn't avoid it, but I wouldn't CP either.
* Delfino Plaza - Some transformations have walls. Walls = DTilt infinite. The main platform in the flying mode is horrible. You can come up through it doing some nice combos, but so can other characters making gimping a pain. It's not a horrible stage, but it's not a great stage either.
* Distant Planet - Hard to camp here due to the easy elevation differences. Can't really gimp at all. It's really just not a good stage for ROB. Don't bother banning unless you know the other person is going to CP there.
* Final Destination This is the neutral you want to get against most of the cast. You generally have better options for a CP, but if you're lucky enough to get this as your neutral, praise the neutral deity.
* Frigate Orpheon - ROB's CP against quite a few people. Lack of a ledge on the right side aids gimping. Temp wall for DTilt infinite. Huge blast zones for recovery abuse. When it's upside down, the moving platforms are great for camping. (Re: Overswarm vs Vidjo Match 4 of the most recent grand finals.) It's just really great.
* Halberd - It's not bad, it's not really good. You run into the same problems as Delfino here without the good stage transformations to aid you.
* Hanenbow - This is a nice counterpick versus people with linear recovery. (Read "Zelda.") It's also great for UAir combos. UAir > UAir > UAir > UAir on the rightside is a definite possibility. : ) Nice blast zones too. One of my more common CPs.
* Luigi's Mansion - THE counterpick vs other Projectile heavy characters. There's certain characters you need to avoid picking this against, though. DO NOT PICK against MetaKnight, ZSS, and DK are the only ones I'm never picking this against, I'm sure there's more that I just haven't encountered, though.
* Lylat Cruise - The tilting messes with Gyro and Laser bounces. It's not too hard to recalculate or even use to mess up the opponent, but it's still one more thing to think about. The platforms are great for USmash as even if they shield, they'll be pushed off the side into their tumble animation. Ban against Snake. That's about it.
* Norfair Norfair is weird. If you're playing against a great zoning character, it sucks, if you're playing against someone with small range, it's amazing. Nice UAir combos if the opponent DIs out instead of in. Easy camping when the lava covers the bottom 2 layers. You can fly over the lava wave, but a better option is to let the opponent get into the little safety tube, AIR DODGE the lava wave, and then USmash them until the cave thing starts to open, once it opens, UAir > UAir. Mass damage for great justice. This stage just has a lot of quirks.
* Pirate Ship This stage won't sway a match too much, but it will make things annoying. No gimping, but DAir KOs. No USmash or upward NAir KOs. It's just awkwards. I've had a few snakes bring me there and it's retardedly useful for them. I ban it if I think they'll pick there.
* Smashville Don't let the balkoon distract you, but don't ignore it. Go for it as often as you (safely) can so that the opponent will start to go for it and you can punish. Other than that, it's a good neutral for you.
* Yoshi's Island It's not good, but it's not horrible either. You can use the FlyGuys to make your NAir last even longer. It's hard for people to pick up gyros sometimes.

Melee Stages


* Brinstar - Gimping is nulled. Gyro bounces up and down on the lava forever. People KO you off the top easily. Ban this place against Snake. Avoid it against anyone else. Most characters have better options, but don't be surprised if you get taken here.
* Corneria Avoid like the plague. You can DTilt infinite, but it's not worth the lack of size. Blast zones make it so you can't utilize your recovery and gimping is near pointless. Not to mention low ceilings = baadd.
* Jungle Japes Too good for ROB. Camp all day, don't die off the top, water gimps, the lit goes on.
* Pokémon Stadium - The main platform is good for ROB. Big, open, tiny platforms. Thing is though, most of the transformations cluster you up with your opponent. Not something you want to be forced into. The windmill is great for DSmash spam but you need to know who has better spamming options down there (MK's tornado is one of them) and avoid the place if if the opponent has a move as such. The Rock formation is really cramped. What I find to be the best place is all the way to the left and just camp there by throwing your gyro straight up when they come close. If they get around that, then you have the disjointedness of your UAir, UTilt, and USmash to fall back on. Fire stage stay on the right side and you have something a bit smaller than smashville to work your camping on. Also have a wall. The other forms aren't much to worry about.
* Rainbow Cruise - ****ing wonderful against people with a poor or predictable recovery. Snake? Too easy. So long as you play a good game of keep away, this stage is great.

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i would have to say ratings for Sonic on FD and battlefield are 3 and 5 respectively.

on final destination the plain flat layout encourages excessive spindashing which is usually a bad idea. and also the large blast lines on all sides makes sonics job of killing or even gimping harder than it already is. since on most stages the first gimp will kill ppl, but on FD not only will the initial hit not kill but it usually takes 2-3 gimps to actually get the kill.

BF seems like its more favorable for sonic because its small enough that his ground speed can give him the advantage adn at the same time, if you get stuck on a platform below him, chances are you are going to take damage before you can attack again since all of his short hopped airials except his down air have no lag and hit the two lower platforms on the sides, at high percents he also has the added bonus of scoring surprise kills with his up throw on the top platform

This is a great thread but it will only work If people don't take into consideration matchups and tiers.

Let me throw out an example.

For example Link is a lower tier and naturally bad matchup for metaknight but if Link is better against characters in his own tier than metaknight is against people in his own tier (high and top). Then Link should get a better for that level than metaknight

This thread wasn't for the purpose of character tiers.

Pirate Ship and Rumble Falls are a definite 3 or less for Olimar. Pirate Ship has the water which decimates all pikmin except Blues, and his recovery is near 100% useless on Rumble.

I have found that levels like Mario Circuit and Battlefield are better for Olimar. With Mario Circuit, his usmash and his b+up is great on the bottom level for safely attacking the people on the track above. However, walk-offs are one of the banes of Olimar, not only does he die quickly from throws, but the walk-offs mean incredibly small blast zones which may hurt or help Olimar.

Tiny blast zones are generally bad for Olimar. It means Olimar is crippled on levels like Flat Zone 2,Yoshi's Island (Melee), and Bridge of Eldin.

Lots of platforms generally mean a better game for him. Luigi's Mansion might be a good counterpick for him; projectilers get pwned on this level (not that Olimar needs help against projectiles), and the large blast zones help Olimar to survive a bit longer. Castle Siege might not seem too bad of a choice at first because of the many platforms, but the small blast zones and the walk-offs during the second part of the level cripple him.

Spear Pillar might also be an option, I have managed to rack up a lot of damage on the bottom level by spamming ground smashes. The enemy smacks against the top of the cave and back down, allowing more availability for Olimar.

All of this info is by personal experience and I am in no way an expert on these levels.

very cool thread. nicely done.

in the pika threads i ahve started a stage discussion for pika. i ahve to update it against but there are a lot of characters finished so far.

I disagree with Skyworld being a terrible stage for Ness. In fact it's a terrible stage for a lot of characters. The only characters who'd have an advantage are the one's who have multiple jumps. The stage overall just sucks. The platforms break apart leaving you as good as dead or saving your life. Say you're standing on the clouds. You slam your opponent against the ceiling above and then they'll just fall through the clouds. I mean they could return, but we all know the platforms come back thus making the person wanting to come back have no chance of coming back at all.

i have to give MK a 7 for rainbow cruise... the stage has small blastlines. and because of the platform layout. after you are past 30 damage you are susceptible to a shuttle loop KO

get some pics so its more pleasant to look at. this is gonna b hard wat with character matchups being involved i guess.

I think Battlefield should be a 5 or 6 for both Marth and Ike.

A few of Ike's good stages:
BF (6): Platform abuse and the curved edge.
Corneria (6): Wall and close blastlines.
Delfino (5): Platforms, walls and water.
DP (5): Platform abuse and pellets.
GG (6): (Bomb) block abuse, wall, close blastlines.

The chart and post is screaming for some organization.

The idea is great though.

The idea is amazing, but you might want to ask someone who has a good chart(DanGR, Neo) and can make it, maybe you can PM one of them and they might make it to you, since this would help a lot competitivly

*post*
Nice idea.

Falco has about a 10-0 or 9.5-0.5 advantage on Mario Bros.

-can't jump to avoid SHDL, because of the restricting platforms
-no need for a vertical recovery
-hard to get killed off the top
-walkoffs are tempting for chaingrabs

-But the main reason is that because he throws his reflector, it's easy to stun and throw all kinds of shellcreepers/sidesteppers, as well as easier to reflect thrown ones back. There's no risk involved.

Seriously, try it. It is literally impossible to beat a much worse Falco player on this stage with another character.

Note that although this stage is ignored for this project, this advantage is so noticeable it can be empirically tested.

This goes to OP:

Why don't you switch places between Stages and Characters? Some stage's names are insanely long and makes the chart unreadable.

VGamerJoe said:

Wow, nice work. It seems like it would be better if you color coded the characters or put a picture by them like the character match-up chart. Also, it seems as if every character's stage benefits them.

Keep up the good work

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agreed, its hard to follow along when its all black and white.

Kudos though.

chart needs a better design like the char matchup one. makes it easier to read

Hmm. My bf mains Jigglypuff but he hates green hill zone. The ground seems to fall out on him at the worst times. Maybe he is just unlucky, but...I just thought I'd mention that.

wow. your charts coming along nicely!

I wouldn't say that Lucario has any horrible stage but heres what i think...



Luigi's Mansion - amazing for Lucario because he can live up to really high percents there due to the "cave of life" effect. I think we all know that Lucario at high percents is deadly. (6)

Final Destination - Great stage for Lucario because he can live until high percents and he can spam Aura Spheres like crazy on this stage. This stage actually helps his recovery because he can wall cling, this stage gimps a lot of other characters recoveries. (5)

Frigate Orpheon - The high ceiling helps Lucario live longer and he can wall cling pretty easily on this stage which is always a plus. (5)

Green Hill Zone - High ceiling can help Lucario live to higher percents. (5)

Temple - Obviously this is a great stage for lucario because he can wallcling on certain spots of the stage and he can live until high percents. (6)

Norfair - This stage is a lot of fun for Lucario becasue he can Extreme Speed to all of the ledges which is a lot of fun for mindgames. He can also live to pretty high percents on this stage. (5)

Yoshi's Island - This stage is pretty neutral for Lucario. He can wallcling pretty easily which is nice. (4)

Smashville - This stage is pretty neutral (4)

Battfield - Very neutral stage. I stay away from this stage if I'm fighting somebody with better airs than Lucario. (4)

Halberd - Pretty neutral. (4)

Lylat Cuise - This is the worst stage for Lucario IMO. The tilting of the stage makes it very hard for Lucario to use Aura Sphere. This stage isn't really even that bad for Lucario but it's probably his worst and i try to avoid it. (3)

I would reccomend putting all stages with a walk off line as a 7 for Dedede, he can chaingrab all but the lightest SSBB cast to their death indefinetly on those stages. You also might wanna put a 5 for any stage with a static large platform for Dedede, as he can chaingrab the same cast over and over again for insane damage.

You should give G&W a 7 for rainbow cruise, because his aerial game gives him such an advantage over just about everyone else.
Also, Pictochat is great because the angled edges make for easy edgeguarding (dtilt).

Jigglypuff

7 Delfino Plaza - Mute city was the best stage for Jigglypuff in Melee. Mainly because Jigglypuff could go under the stage and attack the opponent w/o getting itself in harms way. A technique that was invinted for Jigglypuff called sharking. Since the absense of Mute City Delfino Plaza is the replacement because it is a stage where you can go through the main platform from below. Jigglypuff can do constant U airs and fairs to defeat his opponents. And characters you try recovering from the ledge jigglypuff can go under and intercept their rolling and getting up animations from the ledge. The water also lets jigglypuff try rest w/o fear of being attacked because the water cancels Jigglypuffs sleeping part of rest. Jigglypuff can also caresly rollout off the sides of the islands because of the water. The stage also tends to leave the location w/o warning so jigglypuff can camp on the side and try to use the camera to their advantage so that the stage leaves w/o the other player knowing. Because of Jigglypuffs absurd recovery Jigglypuff dosn't really ahve to worry about dying. But this works only on a few characters who have bad vertical recovery. None the less Jigglypuff can take advantage of their recovery with a smash attack or rollout.

5 Halberd - Same as delfino but lacks water, goes on the ground for a while, and has a very low ceiling which Jigglypuff hates.

5 Final Destination - A good place for Jigglypuff. Nice and flat so rollout can connect easier. Ledges don't phase jigglypuff so the ledges only destroy the opponents recovery. Nice and big stage takes a bit for jiggly to die.

5 Luigi's Mansion - Jiggly dosn't die easily, nuff said. Could be 4-5.

7 Rumble Falls - Jigglypuff has a good recovery. Dosn't have to fight the stage nearly as much as the rest of the cast does.

2 Battlefield - Small Stage, Jigglypuff can't do much because of lots of platforms, Opponents can use their ground game in the air because of the platforms.

Diddy Kong

1 Norfair - Diddy hates platforms because his banana game needs a long ground. Not only can opponents avoid them on this stage but he can't even do any glide tosses.

1 Hanenbrow - Same as Norfair

2 Battlefield - Platforms stop banana game and its much harder to keep control of banana's

6 Final Destination - Great long flat stage w/o any platforms to interfere with diddys banana game. Much easier to keep control of banana's.

Diddy Kong I would give a 3 for Battlefield. In some cases it helps with banana control and it doesn't become much of a problem at all unless you don't know how to pick up bananas without air dodge or aerial frames. Winning is mostly based on controlling the bottom platform anyway, but he doesn't benefit as much as others with lots of range like Marth or chars like Metaknight.

Luigi's Mansion:

Donkey Kong obviously does great on this stage. Down B is beastly.
Zamus does well here too. Dthrow -> Dsmash -> Dsmash -> Grab -> Dthrow -> Dsmash -> etc
This place is also Tornado Alley for Metaknight
Kirby's utilt also comes to mind when it comes to taking advantage of this stage's properties

What is the point of this chart really?

I see that banned stages are on it.....really?

But let's look at this in more detail. Lets say I'm playing bowser vs Falco. Now I know i want a stage that's decently long so i dont make my matchup even worse. Falco wants smashville or FD, but in this matchup bowser hates every neutral and then most of the counterpicks. So does that mean that bowser hates every stage? NO, he just hates his matchup. For a less situational matchup...Lucario generally loves to go to luigi's mansion for the cave of life, but against zelda or ROB that's not a great idea because they have projectiles go through the pillars. So does lucario hate luigi's mansion? No, does he dislike it in a few matchups yes, what does this chart show towards a general matchup? nothing.

I can already see somebody planning to refute that "a tier list is the same way", but that's not the same case because in a tier list you still get an idea of who has more good matchups whereas in a chart like this it overlooks that the most important part of the match: the actual matchup.

--at least remove the banned stages like mushroom kingdom and summit from the list because if you're playing on them in the first place chances are you dont care about the idea of counterpicking a stage anyway >_>.

Nice, keep up the good work.

A bit of Dedede input here:


Delfino Plaza - 6

This stage caters to all of DDD's strengths. The walk off portions are excellent for Chain Grabbing. The flying portions are great for under-stage attacks on the competition. DDD can simply fly under the stage and use Uair multiple times while the defense can't do anything but run. Finally, there are multiple locations with walls that DDD can use to infinite grab foes.


Halberd- 5

Basically same as Delfino, except there are no walk off places to which a character can be CG'ed. Also the plasma cannon can pose a threat as DDD is slow and may not be able to get out of the way fast enough.


Hanenbow- 5

The characters that have more than 2 jumps are at a big advantage here, and DDD is no exception. Not only can he survive being hit into the water at the bottom, his heaviness on the small level gives him a bigger advantage than lighter fliers such as Kirby and MK. Also, since his recovery doesn't solely rely on his ledge-grabbing ability, the moving leaves don't cause problems.


Norfair - 2/3

Dedede's large size and relatively slow maneuverability cause him great problems here with the constant lava waves coming in from all directions. The KO wave that requires the player to get into a tiny capsule is especially deadly; faster characters who get there first have no trouble spamming to keep DDD from getting in to safety.

Smashville - 5

Would be a 4, but the moving platform can be used for stationary chaingrabs that result in downright EASY Ftilt KO's off either side of the screen. If a CGable character is grabbed on the stationary platform, he can be CG'ed for as long as it goes, as long as he's facing the right way.

Bridge of Eldin - 4/5

Walk-off stage, against 2/3rd of the cast one grab will usually mean a KO. Other than that, it's a neutral stage.

Final Destination - 3/4

Extremely fast characters take DDD to town on this stage. Characters such as Pikachu, Fox, and Falco are deadly here. Other than those few, it's neutral.

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Those are stages on which I've had a lot of experience, as well as seen videos of. I hope my input is useful.

Falco should have a 6 or 7 for jungle japes...

I see this thread died very quickly...

So much for the chart. -_-

Diddy Kong

Norfair-3 : Short Platforms cripples naner game
Smashville-5 : Long flat platform is extrememly favorable for Diddy's ground game.
Final Destination-6 : Pretty obvious but, hands down best stage for Diddy for obvious reasons.

Kirby:

Shadow Moses: 7 This stage is beastly for Kirby, possibly moreso than for anyone else, despite his not having an infinite CG. Jab locking is ridiculously easy here, and platforms allow you to chain Uairs. However, the main strength here is his Uthrow. Odds are, whoever you're fighting here will try to grab you. If you put your back to a tower and grab them first (yeah, I know, easier said than done on certain chars, like D3, but Kirby does have a decent grab range), then do a Uthrow, the Uthrow will land at the top of the tower, which makes for incredibly easy cieling kills. Seriously, even the heaviest characters die at less than 50% from this.

FD: 4 Meh, this stage is all right. Not really particularly good or bad. Kirby can live for a long time here, but so can his opponents. Getting a hammer hit off here doesn't seem to count for quite as much due to this, and killing off the top becomes difficult for Kirby.

BF: 5 Another somewhat neutral stage. I'd say it's a bit better than FD due to it's smaller size, allowing for easier kills, and the platforms which allow for Uairs through the ground, Cutter cancels, and easy eating access.

Frigate Orpheon: 6 This is a great Kirby stage. Kirby has an easier time than most recovering here, and gimping recoveries is especially easy here I've found. Also, if you do a Dthrow while the stage flips, you will flip with it but your opponent won't, being instead sent downwards at a slightly increased speed (no, this isn't some uber spike, but it can trap a character under the stage, which can kill characters with bad recoveries.)

Delfino: 5-6 Delfino's main part of the stage is pretty good for Kirby, as again, platforms are nice for all the reasons I've already listed, and the fact that you can attack through the bottom platform is great too. A Uthrow on the main part of the stage is nice too at a higher %, as it will hit the top platform and the cieling during that part of the level isn't insanely high. The water on other parts of the stage allows you to auto-cancel the stone and cutter (and odds are, if the opponent's in the water, they won't be able to dodge a stone. Haven't checked if cutter can spike in the water though), and it's pretty easy to jab-lock someone on this stage, at least for a short time. All in all, it's a pretty good Kirby stage, though I prefer Frigate Orpheon.

Ganondorf:

Norfair: 7 This stage is terrible for a lot of characters, but Ganon is not one of them. The multitude of platforms is great for Ganon, who can easily Usmash/Uair through them. Also, his Dair stomp will spike you through the lava. On top of that, his aerial over B, the famous Ganocide Flame Choke, is amazing on this stage, since the lava knocks Ganon back upwards, but his opponent goes right through it and gets spiked. His Bair, Fair, and N air are also very easy to land on this stage, and Wizkick from one of the top platforms can be good for stopping someone trying to cross the stage.

I might add more later, tired of typing this out...