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Toon Link's Matchup Discussion #5: Lucario
- Thread starter l SOUP l
- Start date
But we like didn't even finish Zelda yet.
But I'll only approve of this once we finish Zelda. >=[
It's only been two days man. Chill. Eat some chowder.
But I'll only approve of this once we finish Zelda. >=[
It's only been two days man. Chill. Eat some chowder.
Timbers
check me out
Luc feels the same way about you guys. nair and double arrows all day makes Luc sad.
Yukiwarashi
Smash Champion
^_^ Why hello there Timbers. Fancy meeting you here.
But yeah, I think Toon Link and Lucario have an equal relationship of hatred. From experience with many battles with Timbers, Toon Link's short sword range hates those leftover aura flames.
But I'll post more later.
But yeah, I think Toon Link and Lucario have an equal relationship of hatred. From experience with many battles with Timbers, Toon Link's short sword range hates those leftover aura flames.
But I'll post more later.
Ørion
Smash Ace
One thing to note (that we all I'm sure know) is that Lucario needs to be killed fast cause he gets so powerful around 150ish percent.
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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I'm sorry soup I'll try to help now. ._.
Repeatably crouching/getting up stops his AS.
His Nair is REALLY laggy, so if he doesn't auto-cancel it, punish him.
To get at your shield, they'll probably Dair. DON'T TRY TO GRAB. They'll get out of it. I suggest boomerang/Utilt/Usmash?Either of them work well I guess.
They're probably going to spam Fair, so I suggest using Nair while having an airborne CC battle with Lucario. It's fast and send them back a good amount.
His smashes have a lot of weird startup lag that catches people offgaurd. Instead of trying to shield or spotdogde it, I recommend jumping and hitting him with an airial.
Umm....Gimp his recovery, but if they're smart they'll try to cling to a wall and jump off it instead of going straight for the edge. So if this happens, be ready for it. Drop down from the edge and Nair or something.
Anything else you need help on? >_>
(sorry if this whole thing was useless lol)
Repeatably crouching/getting up stops his AS.
His Nair is REALLY laggy, so if he doesn't auto-cancel it, punish him.
To get at your shield, they'll probably Dair. DON'T TRY TO GRAB. They'll get out of it. I suggest boomerang/Utilt/Usmash?Either of them work well I guess.
They're probably going to spam Fair, so I suggest using Nair while having an airborne CC battle with Lucario. It's fast and send them back a good amount.
His smashes have a lot of weird startup lag that catches people offgaurd. Instead of trying to shield or spotdogde it, I recommend jumping and hitting him with an airial.
Umm....Gimp his recovery, but if they're smart they'll try to cling to a wall and jump off it instead of going straight for the edge. So if this happens, be ready for it. Drop down from the edge and Nair or something.
Anything else you need help on? >_>
(sorry if this whole thing was useless lol)
Timbers
check me out
TL isn't gonna gimp Lucario =\
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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Why not? O_O
Yukiwarashi
Smash Champion
I don't see how Toon Link gimps Lucario's recovery. Extremespeed has quite a lot of range. Even if you ledge guard, Lucario can curve his way onto the level.
Timbers
check me out
There's like so many reasons why lol.
Two big reasons being that TL has a very large blindspot underneath him (unless you guys like using dair off the stage? Then by all means have fun when they airdodge you >_>) Another reason being that all of TL's moves send Lucario in a very vertical fashion. Luc's extremely floaty with decent aerial DI. He's going to be making it back to the stage easily. He shouldn't really ever have to use his extreme speed to get back on. The midair should be enough.
It's hard to explain, but unless a character has some sort of move that launches Lucario horizontally, he's not gonna get gimped, especially from a character that has blindspots in his gimp game. Characters like ROB, Metaknight, Kirby, and Marth are the types of characters that will be gimping Lucario. If TL gets a gimp on Lucario, it's over a scrubby mistake on Lucario's behalf.
You can edgeguard him well, rack up the damage and all, but he's going to get back regardless. Despite what...nearly everyone who doesn't play as Lucario says, his recovery is fine. He's floaty, good aerial DI, and it's maneuverable. Don't forget he has a great projectile to protect himself from any sort of offstage pursuit as well, along with high priority aerials. He's not completely helpless when he gets knocked off.
Two big reasons being that TL has a very large blindspot underneath him (unless you guys like using dair off the stage? Then by all means have fun when they airdodge you >_>) Another reason being that all of TL's moves send Lucario in a very vertical fashion. Luc's extremely floaty with decent aerial DI. He's going to be making it back to the stage easily. He shouldn't really ever have to use his extreme speed to get back on. The midair should be enough.
It's hard to explain, but unless a character has some sort of move that launches Lucario horizontally, he's not gonna get gimped, especially from a character that has blindspots in his gimp game. Characters like ROB, Metaknight, Kirby, and Marth are the types of characters that will be gimping Lucario. If TL gets a gimp on Lucario, it's over a scrubby mistake on Lucario's behalf.
You can edgeguard him well, rack up the damage and all, but he's going to get back regardless. Despite what...nearly everyone who doesn't play as Lucario says, his recovery is fine. He's floaty, good aerial DI, and it's maneuverable. Don't forget he has a great projectile to protect himself from any sort of offstage pursuit as well, along with high priority aerials. He's not completely helpless when he gets knocked off.
Timbers
check me out
That Lucario is going to be in obscene percentages to actually have to use an Extreme Speed to recover from a hit off of nair. Even at the edge, Luc's gonna have to be pushing like 130% before he even needs to use an ES to recover from a fresh nair. I'm pretty sure your guys' nair is never going to be fresh either, as (at least the TL's I've played) it's a staple move in TL's game.
So you basically need to have Lucario at like 150% before you get him in a position to be gimped.
I don't know about other Lucarios, but I'm not gonna really care if I have to be at 150% before I can be gimped.
So you basically need to have Lucario at like 150% before you get him in a position to be gimped.
I don't know about other Lucarios, but I'm not gonna really care if I have to be at 150% before I can be gimped.
Sosuke
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Well I'd think that they'd be dead before 130%
I'm pretty sure a smash attack would finish at about that percent.
But I'd think the nair isn't used so much for knockback as to stop Lucarios horizontal Air movement and send......which is actually pretty much knockback nvm.
A 50% back-hit-of-the-nair to edgegrab sounds like a good gimping possibility. Or just hitting with the back part of the nair a few times I guess.
I'm pretty sure a smash attack would finish at about that percent.
But I'd think the nair isn't used so much for knockback as to stop Lucarios horizontal Air movement and send......which is actually pretty much knockback nvm.
A 50% back-hit-of-the-nair to edgegrab sounds like a good gimping possibility. Or just hitting with the back part of the nair a few times I guess.
Timbers
check me out
Talking about gimp games x_x You should really try killing Luc early, but don't expect that to happen until 150% or so each stock. As soon as Luc reaches 100%, he can start playing REALLY gay against Toon Link. Aurasphere outprioritizes a lot of crap, and he can just keep you at bay the entire time with fsmashes, bairs, and auraspheres. Until your fair reaches kill potential, expect Luc to stay alive until then.
TL's nair isn't going to do a good job on gimping Lucario though. It's an incredibly narrow hitbox. You're going to fall prey to Luc's own lingering hitboxes if you try gimping like that.
Just stay on the stage, **** lol. TL has a good edgeguard game, no need to screw it up with a failed gimp attempt that's likely never going to happen. Luc's not gonna act a dummy when coming back to the stage. Like I said, it's rare he's ever going to have to use his uB.
With all that said, I still think it's 60:40 in Toon's favor. Everything Luc can do Toon can do better.
TL's nair isn't going to do a good job on gimping Lucario though. It's an incredibly narrow hitbox. You're going to fall prey to Luc's own lingering hitboxes if you try gimping like that.
Just stay on the stage, **** lol. TL has a good edgeguard game, no need to screw it up with a failed gimp attempt that's likely never going to happen. Luc's not gonna act a dummy when coming back to the stage. Like I said, it's rare he's ever going to have to use his uB.
With all that said, I still think it's 60:40 in Toon's favor. Everything Luc can do Toon can do better.
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
About Aura Sphere, Toon Link's bomb is enough to stop a fully charged AS when Lucario is at 150%. The smaller ones can be stopped with arrows, and Toon Link's little shield will guard all of them.
Hmmm, yeah TL has advantage over Lucario. I do have a bit of trouble beating him when I play my friend cuz he's always shouting "HURT ME MORE!" <---- as said by Redson. Lucario is floaty and I must admit is somewhat of a pain to my Bomber style. Though I do sometimes manage to win, my style ain't all that bad (yes I said ain't).
Yukiwarashi
Smash Champion
Quirky Yuki! =DI dont see how the Toon Link mains aslo second Pokemon Trainer
Super trouper Soup
Taunty Santi
anddd
Yukiwarashi
you need a nickname...
hmm
Yuk skywalker?
Spooky Yuki? does that rhyme?
Crank
Smash Apprentice
If you go below me thats a perfect setup for a bomb spike though, so watch out :}
Nair has almost pure horizontal knockback, which is why I prefer it to Bair when it comes to gimping. He can use that or Fair, but Fair is kind of laggy and slow.
And also about aura sphere, can't TLs standing shield block it?
No, not flamebait. =(
Well, if he's paranoid, I bet he would try to recover on to the stage. Lucario can't wall cling here so that's something.
SHDA gets screwed up when the ship tilts, and it's so small you're kinda forced to a mobile camp tactic with bombs, boomerangs, and SH aerial to arrow cancel instead.
Both of you can abuse platforms for vertical kills.
I need to find a Lucario in Georgia. <_<
Cloud Cleaver
Smash Journeyman
I think either Corneria or Lylat would make good counterpicks. The sloping edges let you throw him off at pretty much zero damage with a down smash, opening for edguards or perhaps kills, especially on Corneria. This removes his high-damage bonuses. There aren't any walls on Lylat, and there are few accessible ones on Corneria. The Great Fox is so large, there isn't a lot of space for Luc to make his horizontal recovery.
To edgeguard? Try z-dropping a bomb at the edge, then hogging. Luc can't catch the edge with his ES, and he can't safely land on the stage without your bomb blowing up in his face. At the least, it'll make him hesitate, which is advantageous.
Use of the forearm shield can block the Aura Sphere. I think it's safer to crouch, then stand up at the last second to ensure proper height and make sure he doesn't drop the shield prematurely.
To edgeguard? Try z-dropping a bomb at the edge, then hogging. Luc can't catch the edge with his ES, and he can't safely land on the stage without your bomb blowing up in his face. At the least, it'll make him hesitate, which is advantageous.
Use of the forearm shield can block the Aura Sphere. I think it's safer to crouch, then stand up at the last second to ensure proper height and make sure he doesn't drop the shield prematurely.
Cloud Cleaver
Smash Journeyman
XD OMG.
BS. Bomb-setting. Harhar.
BS. Bomb-setting. Harhar.
TLMarth
Smash Ace
10 characters
Timbers
check me out
Can TL use aerials when holding a bomb? I know some (most?) characters are able to drop bomb and grab again into an aerial, but I've never seen this used for TL. Assuming he can't, having a bomb completely shuts down everything he can do to a character that's not under him, except adding an additional, what 6%? to the opponent, and popping them upwards to ease their recovery.
Nair's vertical hitbox is silly, and I already explained the damage percent needed on Luc for him to actually be forced to use his upB. Even then, the best you're going to do is set up an fair kill/punishment if you force him to recover onto the stage.
I'm pretty sure it will, but TL's shield isn't going to block anything if he's in any sort of animation, example being that he's throwing a boomerang or something. Plus TL's ground options are fairly limited, but you can be the one to tell me how often TL is just standing on the ground during a match, preferably during a scenario where Lucario's in killing range.
You lack vague answers.
Seriously what.
I personally hate Lylat and Delfino for Lucario. Lylat screws with spacing issues, aurasphere is a hassle to use on the stage, and the platforms are setup in a stupid manner. Recovery isn't an issue on the stage. Delfino has the same lame parts of the stage that eat auraspheres, and ridiculously low ceiling makes Lucario sad.
Crank
Smash Apprentice
Bomb spiking is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8nTA1zJsRY
If done fast enough the dood shouldn't be able to air dodge out of it, as far as I know. I've never been put in a situation where I would be able to do it, but its possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG_9HezcAds
^^^In a fight
Timbers
check me out
Both of those videos would have allowed plenty of time for the opponent to airdodge. I know there are instances where the bomb props me up right below the TL though, getting spiked. I'm aware of what it is.
What I was talking about was whether or not Toon could drop the bomb and then perform an aerial quickly enough to grab the bomb upon using said aerial. If he can't, then even having a bomb out severely limits him in doing anything except throwing/dropping the bomb.
However, it's hard to argue that "bomb-spiking" covers his gimp game. He has a moderately slow fair, and nair is very narrow in it's horiontal hitbox. Also keep in mind that Lucario's ledgesnap is huge, so actually landing that hit on him may be difficult, and any unsuccessful attempt at gimping Lucario puts Toon in a bad situation. His upB is fodder for Lucario's dair, issuing a possible ledgespike on Toon.
Does Toon normally gimp people? He certainly never came across as such a character, but I'm not going to overrule your own character. Just trying to get the point across that gimping Lucario is silly. If there are characters that can gimp him, then those are the characters that are gimping (almost) the entire cast.
What I was talking about was whether or not Toon could drop the bomb and then perform an aerial quickly enough to grab the bomb upon using said aerial. If he can't, then even having a bomb out severely limits him in doing anything except throwing/dropping the bomb.
However, it's hard to argue that "bomb-spiking" covers his gimp game. He has a moderately slow fair, and nair is very narrow in it's horiontal hitbox. Also keep in mind that Lucario's ledgesnap is huge, so actually landing that hit on him may be difficult, and any unsuccessful attempt at gimping Lucario puts Toon in a bad situation. His upB is fodder for Lucario's dair, issuing a possible ledgespike on Toon.
Does Toon normally gimp people? He certainly never came across as such a character, but I'm not going to overrule your own character. Just trying to get the point across that gimping Lucario is silly. If there are characters that can gimp him, then those are the characters that are gimping (almost) the entire cast.
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
Well, dsmashing Link (for example) on the edge of Final Destination when he's at 0% and then ledgeguarding is enough to gimp him I think. And there are also several other characters with horrible recovery, even Snake because he's vulnerable when he's coming back so you can spike him safely.
He doesn't gimp any good recovery characters so easily though except if you go brave and try to spike them..
He doesn't gimp any good recovery characters so easily though except if you go brave and try to spike them..
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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Cloud Cleaver
Smash Journeyman
Yes...especially against loser recoveries like Link's.
I just recently learned something about doing aerials with a bomb, but am not sure how useful it actually is. get a bomb do a double jump then quickly grab it using a bair. At that time you can then do any aerial attack while still carrying the bomb. I don't have any video proof but its simple to do. It might be useful for off stage ledge gimping by jumping backwards catching the bomb then proceed with a fair or nair
*Edit: with further testing this is an excellent way to attempt a dair spike pick up a bomb wait a couple of seconds then go off stage and dair the bomb will explode allowing you to go back on stage. If you time it correctly you will be able to spike someone and get back on ledge
*Edit: with further testing this is an excellent way to attempt a dair spike pick up a bomb wait a couple of seconds then go off stage and dair the bomb will explode allowing you to go back on stage. If you time it correctly you will be able to spike someone and get back on ledge
Discolicious
Smash Apprentice
I think that is already known try using the search button :D
all that came up was a video about advanced bomb techniques for link. However watching the video and reading all of the post about it I saw nothing about doing an air attack to pick it up and then immediately after that while still in the air do another attack. I have heard the first thing using an attack to pick up a boimb right when you drop it from the air, that is very simple to find. Hower the latter I have yet to see. If you can show me where you saw this thatd be great because I have yet to see it. Sorry for the inconvience if so