Brickwalls and Traps Discussion

I would first like to direct your attention to this thread by Emblem Lord: Brickwalls and Traps: The keys to victory

This is information is very useful and very valuable for anyone interested in competitive play.

Did you read it? Good.

Now for the discussion part: I want to find new and creative ways of applying this idea to Ike's style of play. To start it off, here is an example of a Zoning Brickwall:

Fair. :D Use the range of this move to keep you're opponents at bay. Short hopped and fast falled appropriately, you can get the most speed out of this to be able to perform another attack. With this, now your opponent must figure out a way to get close to you. A few possible scenarios:

-They can run up and shield your Fair, attempting to punish you afterwards. This is where you can start retreating your Fairs to maintain your spacing. If they try to rush you, you have the option to spotdodge or use Ike's Neutral A combo to intercept. Proper spacing and buffering are often necessary for best results. If they shield and decide not to rush, then they're back right where they started. If they get hit...hooray for you.

-They can jump over and attempt to attack from above. Take note of if they use their double jump or not, as it will limit they're options greatly if they do. Now that you have you're opponent above you, you can stop using Fairs and react accordingly to you're opponent. You can shield and punish if they come in with an attack. If they have no jumps and are forced to land near you, punish they're landing vulnerability with a grab or attack.

Basically, you are forcing your opponent to react in the way that you want them to. If you are able to know how your opponent will react to this situation, you can get them where you want them to be and you can be ready to punish them for it.

The downside to this unfortunately is if your opponent has a decent projectile game. They can zone you out just as well in this case.

This is an example to get things started. I'm hoping for more ideas and discussion to further expand this portion of Ike's game.

So have at it! What brickwalls and traps do you find useful? Can you guys think of any other effective setups?

"Brickwall Projectiles" and "Trap Projectiles" hurts... But I believe anyone can overcome this dependent on the opponent and yourself as a person... If you happen to be very patient and don't care for measly 4% for every miss dodge, you yourself can set yourself for the "Brickwall Zoning" and be the guy to piss off your spamming little friends... Though if your opponent is too patient, we'll its more of the battle to see who can "Brickwall" better...

I like retreating ff nairs to jabs, just to cover my tracks a bit better-not nearly as good range, but the autocancel makes it much safer to use...not sure how easy it is to shieldgrab it, though.

Yus finally someone here making use of that post. I approve.

Falcon, I think a lot of us have been doing it intuitively to begin with...that, and a brick wall kinda has to be efficient at keeping people out-Ike doesn't have too much that does this.

OH, I forgot my FAVORITE one. A standstill RAR'd bair. Tilt your control stick diagonal up and then immediately up-you'll do a bair in the direction you were just facing, without the dash backward. You can control your descent afterward, to pursue with a jab combo if it hit using the "craq walk" pivoting technique, OR you can move backward and defend yourself with more jabs or an uptilt to catch any idiot who chases if they SOMEhow manage to block a bair out of nowhere.

Of course, the insta-rar'd bair has a smaller range than a fair, so it's not quite as effective as simply maintaining space...but I still like it. More of a good setup than anything, I guess. *stops talking* ;_;

When I read the birckwall - zoning I immediately thought about Ike's Nair, Fair, and jab. We all use this moves a lot they are probably 3 of Ike's most used moves because if someone gets to close to us we use Ike's fastest attacks which would be Bair, Nair, and jab but the Nair to jab works wonders since it auto cancels (sort of) and allows for a simple jab combo which can then follow up to a grab.

Nair could be used the same way as Fair especially since it auto cancels you could just keep jumping over and over and if they do happen to shield it you can just follow up into a jab or grab which ever you feel is best for the situation as long as where spacing right if not you'll probably be the one getting grabbed. I'm actually thinking this might lead to the juggle trap as well doing an Nair when you send someone into the air then following up with a U.tilt.

I'm not sure if this one would be, maybe its a grab to edge guarding trap but I'm sure we all do F. throws and B. throws at the edge this actually leaves them with nothing but recovery options or air dodges which you can take advantage off easily as stated in the thread so I guess that would make it an edge guarding trap.

After thinking about this a bit it seems to me that these traps have to do a lot with tech chasing and mind games. Maybe we just had different names for them all along.

Kodachrome said:

Falcon, I think a lot of us have been doing it intuitively to begin with...that, and a brick wall kinda has to be efficient at keeping people out-Ike doesn't have too much that does this.

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Arturito_Burrito said:

After thinking about this a bit it seems to me that these traps have to do a lot with tech chasing and mind games. Maybe we just had different names for them all along.

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Both very correct. I'm sure people do these types of strategies all of the time. But what hasn't been done is having a specific discussion concerning these different strategies and brainstorming what Ike can do with what he is capable of doing. I'm hoping this will renforce what we already know and possibly bring up some new ideas in the process.

Tsukuyomi said:

"Brickwall Projectiles" and "Trap Projectiles" hurts... But I believe anyone can overcome this dependent on the opponent and yourself as a person... If you happen to be very patient and don't care for measly 4% for every miss dodge, you yourself can set yourself for the "Brickwall Zoning" and be the guy to piss off your spamming little friends... Though if your opponent is too patient, we'll its more of the battle to see who can "Brickwall" better...

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Projectiles seem to be a big obstacle for most users around here. One can alter their strategy slightly to cope with this. As you said, it's about who can maintain their "wall" the best.

Kodachrome said:

I like retreating ff nairs to jabs, just to cover my tracks a bit better-not nearly as good range, but the autocancel makes it much safer to use...not sure how easy it is to shieldgrab it, though.

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Nair can be an alternative to Fair zoning, sure. You will be losing range and spacing, but you will also get better recovery time as well, as you say. If spaced properly, you should have no fear of getting shield grabbed, but the space you have to work with is a bit smaller.

Kodachrome said:

OH, I forgot my FAVORITE one. A standstill RAR'd bair. Tilt your control stick diagonal up and then immediately up-you'll do a bair in the direction you were just facing, without the dash backward. You can control your descent afterward, to pursue with a jab combo if it hit using the "craq walk" pivoting technique, OR you can move backward and defend yourself with more jabs or an uptilt to catch any idiot who chases if they SOMEhow manage to block a bair out of nowhere.

Of course, the insta-rar'd bair has a smaller range than a fair, so it's not quite as effective as simply maintaining space...but I still like it. More of a good setup than anything, I guess. *stops talking* ;_;

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You don't even have to RAR the bair, but it is a nice alternative. If you autocancel your Bairs, you can set up a psuedo-wall by performing it repeatedly, retreating and spacing as necessary. Since the attack does not last a long time and has a shorter range, you are potentially in more danger since you are left open for a long while after the hitbox is gone. If your opponent rushes you to get past, you can space/retreat the Bair appropriately and buffer a pivot and perform jabs or a tilt.

Some of what I've said is reiterating your previous post, but I feel it doesn't hurt to get a sligthly different take on things.

Arturito_Burrito said:

Nair could be used the same way as Fair especially since it auto cancels you could just keep jumping over and over and if they do happen to shield it you can just follow up into a jab or grab which ever you feel is best for the situation as long as where spacing right if not you'll probably be the one getting grabbed. I'm actually thinking this might lead to the juggle trap as well doing an Nair when you send someone into the air then following up with a U.tilt.

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Pretty much what I was talking about previously...you can replace Fair with Nairs if the situation calls for it. For example, if you're opponent tends to approach and spot dodge to get past, a Nair can be used since the hitbox stays out a hell of a lot longer than Fair's does.

Arturito_Burrito said:

I'm not sure if this one would be, maybe its a grab to edge guarding trap but I'm sure we all do F. throws and B. throws at the edge this actually leaves them with nothing but recovery options or air dodges which you can take advantage off easily as stated in the thread so I guess that would make it an edge guarding trap.

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We all do it, for sure...at least I would hope so. A throw off the edge puts your opponent right where you want them to be. From here, you can get an idea of how they recover. They can either drop down below the stage and recovery upwards, or they can jump right away to get back to the ledge or stage. Depending on the situation, you can see how they react and put a properly timed Fair/Dair/Ftilt etc. in their face.

Again, I may be reiterating some things...but its good to re-enforce the good points here.

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Now the next thing I would like to discuss:

--Juggling--

In Ike's case, he can only juggle at lower percents...since we all know most all of his attacks have high knockback. But this is a good time to learn your opponents' tendencies and rack up some early damage.

First the starter moves...to get your opponent in the air:

Nair: This can pops them upwards and a little in front of you...which is a good position to have your opponent in.

Uptilt: Pretty self explanatory...pops them upwards.

UpThrow/DThrow: Throws your opponent right above you. Upthrow has a lower knockback.

These are your basic starters. So now...where do we go from here? This is where you start seeing how your opponent reacts to the situation they are in.

--Your opponent can airdodge immediately, expecting a follow up attack. If you can read this, you can time a Nair just as they land...or just walk up and grab them. Guess what? The trap repeats from here.

--They can jump immediately out of the way and ready a counteract on you. Now they have limited their options further. All they can do is move through the air, airdodge, or attack. You can follow them and punish their landing lag, shield their attack and punish with a grab or an attack...etc.

--They can attack right away. Easiest remedy is to shield the attack and punish accordingly with a grab or attack and start the juggle over.

You may not always know exactly how your opponent will react, as they will try to be as unpredictable as possible, but knowing your opponents options and your own in any given situation is necessary to "juggle" properly.

So what do you guys think? Anything to add? To change? Discuss! :D

I like down throw then tech chasing to a utilt. I like uthrow too and it works better at higher percents. Also its a good chance people won't know that uthrow has more afterlag, but some people do, and dodge too early/DI and dodge to avoid aether then you tech chase that.

Aether also is a great aerial approach stopper. A lot of Ike's don't make good use that Aether has. But don't get baited into it Aether does amazing damage though. and it's your highest combo =o (lawlz) Aether works wonders against Wario, jiggs, and other aerial Characters. Wario's air dodge though can bait you well.

Well I like to use this wall. Full hop with rising fair and FF as soon as the animation ends. I like this b/c you are guaranteed all aerial battles pretty much with good spacing and if they air dodge it you have no landing lag upon landing. And can punish from there.

Also this can hit a standing opponent with the bottom most portion of this attack. If they spotdodge, roll, or dash towards Ike, you can counter by spotdodging, jabbing, etc when you land b/c you will have no landing lag if you performed it correctly. Although short people like kirby won't be hit unfortunately .

For juggling varying your attack speeds can net you some free %'s. Like first time you d-throw you don't immediately pursue them, but say the third or fourth time you immediately jump and uair it can catch them off guard. Also you can bait a response by jumping at them after you throw them and punish from there.

Most common responses would be air dodge or jumping away from Ike. If they air dodge do anything, although grabbing is good b/c you reset situation and if they jump away, jump with them and fair. You will generally only have an advantage in juggling somebody that has limited options from below, ex Snake, Marth, Zelda, some others. So knowing your opponent's char really helps with traps and brickwalls imo.

Ussi said:

Aether also is a great aerial approach stopper. A lot of Ike's don't make good use that Aether has. But don't get baited into it Aether does amazing damage though. and it's your highest combo =o (lawlz) Aether works wonders against Wario, jiggs, and other aerial Characters. Wario's air dodge though can bait you well.

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Most don't use Aether on the stage because of its ending lag when you hit the ground. But if you hit your opponent with it...then there's no problem! Keyword being "if." As you said, airdodging can ruin this...and Aether in itself is a long animation on startup and can be seen early enough for your opponent to react to it. That being said...it *can* be good for racking damage, but be VERY cautious of its useage.

3xSwords said:

Well I like to use this wall. Full hop with rising fair and FF as soon as the animation ends. I like this b/c you are guaranteed all aerial battles pretty much with good spacing and if they air dodge it you have no landing lag upon landing. And can punish from there.

Also this can hit a standing opponent with the bottom most portion of this attack. If they spotdodge, roll, or dash towards Ike, you can counter by spotdodging, jabbing, etc when you land b/c you will have no landing lag if you performed it correctly. Although short people like kirby won't be hit unfortunately .

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I actually had this in my draft for my first post...but for whatever reason it isn't there o.O In any event, this can be mixed up into your Fair "wall"...for instance if your opponent decides to approach a bit higher. Timing the landing for when Fair's animation ends is also a nice bonus if you decide to full hop it. And indeed it can hit standing characters...you just have to keep in mind your spacing...as always.

3xSwords said:

For juggling varying your attack speeds can net you some free %'s. Like first time you d-throw you don't immediately pursue them, but say the third or fourth time you immediately jump and uair it can catch them off guard. Also you can bait a response by jumping at them after you throw them and punish from there.

Most common responses would be air dodge or jumping away from Ike. If they air dodge do anything, although grabbing is good b/c you reset situation and if they jump away, jump with them and fair. You will generally only have an advantage in juggling somebody that has limited options from below, ex Snake, Marth, Zelda, some others. So knowing your opponent's char really helps with traps and brickwalls imo.

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This all ties into getting the reaction you want out of your opponent. Looks like I wasn't as specific in my previous post...so thank you for pointing some things out. Baiting an airdodge out of your opponent by jumping is a great way to set them up. Just don't do it every single time, but I'm sure that goes without saying...stay unpredictable :D

Knowledge of your opponent's character DEFINITELY goes a long way. Like I've said, knowing their options are just as important are knowing your own. We've yet to go into character specific setups...but maybe that is for a later time?

Also, Snake can Bair when he is above you and fall down...the hitbox is basically his entire body and it comes out very fast.

Keep it coming guys. :D

^Yeah but its not that great b/c a disjointed hitbox easily hits him out of it. Well I guess FF bair works b/c Ike's aerials don't come out quickly so snake could land a FF bair b4 you can do anything. But regardless Snake is relatively weak from underneath.

You can bait air dodges with a FF uair, and upon landing do an u-tilt or dash grab depending on where your opponent goes after using their air dodge. Uair has very little landing lag which makes this very possible.

I don't have much to add to juggling but Dtilt can be used as a starter as well since if you hit him on the floor they go strait up. It can be set up pretty easy to with jab canceling and it has less knock back than Utilt so you can use it at a few higher percents.

FAir -> jab works incredibly well because of Ike's IASA frames, but that's already been discussed.

At low %s depending on the character, FThrow/BThrow are useful throw traps (for my Ike, at least); they'll land right on their feet close to Ike. If you run at them, they'll usually do one of 3 things (from my experience): attack, shield in case of a dash attack or USmash, or spot-dodge. Attacks can be countered by FAirs and if they shield or spot-dodge you can grab them again (spot-dodging is easily countered with a pivot grab). I haven't really encountered anyone who rolled, but a roll away would result in another grab and a roll towards you can result in an USmash. The can also jump out - that is the safest option for them, since they can either airdodge or attack.

Kirk said:

Now the next thing I would like to discuss:

--Juggling--

In Ike's case, he can only juggle at lower percents...since we all know most all of his attacks have high knockback. But this is a good time to learn your opponents' tendencies and rack up some early damage.

First the starter moves...to get your opponent in the air:

Nair: This can pops them upwards and a little in front of you...which is a good position to have your opponent in.

Uptilt: Pretty self explanatory...pops them upwards.

UpThrow/DThrow: Throws your opponent right above you. Upthrow has a lower knockback.

These are your basic starters. So now...where do we go from here? This is where you start seeing how your opponent reacts to the situation they are in.

--Your opponent can airdodge immediately, expecting a follow up attack. If you can read this, you can time a Nair just as they land...or just walk up and grab them. Guess what? The trap repeats from here.

--They can jump immediately out of the way and ready a counteract on you. Now they have limited their options further. All they can do is move through the air, airdodge, or attack. You can follow them and punish their landing lag, shield their attack and punish with a grab or an attack...etc.

--They can attack right away. Easiest remedy is to shield the attack and punish accordingly with a grab or attack and start the juggle over.

You may not always know exactly how your opponent will react, as they will try to be as unpredictable as possible, but knowing your opponents options and your own in any given situation is necessary to "juggle" properly.

So what do you guys think? Anything to add? To change? Discuss! :D

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In the cases of high damaged opponent's who can't be "juggled", I suggest not trying to catch them in any case... Simply foxtrot back and forth or use empty jumps to take out their 2nd jumps by accident... Then wait for them to come down and act accordingly to their movement...

um what i try to do to keep an attack string going is i use the f-airs n-airs and jab combos like usual and eventually they fly out of range due to knock back but i keep in mind exactly how far the quick draw goes and then the second they land there i do the auto canceled quick draw into jab combo to cover the distance and then reset the whole trap from there

QD doesn't auto cancel...

Arturito_Burrito said:

QD doesn't auto cancel...

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^ QD doesn't cancel. You just charge it so you stop inches in front of them and jab.

edit: nvm this. I miss read your post to does cancel.

Arturito_Burrito said:

QD doesn't auto cancel...

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Yeah, QD doesn't auto cancel. It does have IASA frames, however, so it makes it ever slightly more useful.

Ike's F smash has IASA frames too that doesn't make more useful. yes kirk even though I've only known for a day I said it.

Anyways... I was thinking that Ike's trap attacks would be things like Fair and Ftilt when you space them right. This thread talks about why Marths D. tilt is a trap attack, well not really talk about but it shows it.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185395

I wanted to test some of Ike's attacks out like this but I'm not sure how frame testing is actually done. Maybe someone else would like to try or explain it to me and I'll do it.

__V said:

^ QD doesn't cancel. You just charge it so you stop inches in front of them and jab.

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I have a better idea, use a different means of approach so you don't lose control and hope to God they dont easily intercept it (which a smart enemy will.)

...

QD -> Jab
QD -> Utilt
QD -> Shield Grab

and I mean... learn QDs distance...

3 reasons to not land QDs...
Airdodge and Shield = Punish
Mindgame

Though with better opponents this tactic may not be viable but;
if you QD -> any of the above, Jump/SH QD away from opponent (depending on where your opponent is) QD (for no contact) recycle! Once they feel that you're only QDing to do jab, tilt, grab you can make contact. (typically because when they realize that you're only QDing to get distance they can do their auto jab and screw you over)

correct me though, I forget if QD (contacted) is cancelable

For future reference, let's please NOT include Quick Draw discussion in this topic. I don't feel it has a place here. From what I've read so far, there is not a good reason to discuss it. However, if you do think it needs to be discussed, please be sure that it is relevant to the topic.

Arturito_Burrito said:

Anyways... I was thinking that Ike's trap attacks would be things like Fair and Ftilt when you space them right. This thread talks about why Marths D. tilt is a trap attack, well not really talk about but it shows it.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185395

I wanted to test some of Ike's attacks out like this but I'm not sure how frame testing is actually done. Maybe someone else would like to try or explain it to me and I'll do it.

Click to expand...

This can be an interesting project...a more indepth analysis of Ike's attacks can possibly prove useful to a topic such as this. Comparing frame advantages can help answer some questions on what is a 'safe' move to use or which attack is safer over another...and other topics such as "Should I fast fall this aerial or let it autocancel?" (Bair comes to mind.) I wouldn't mind looking into this.

Kirk, you're more experienced than I am, but

when I used Quick Draw, it works as a zoning wall... it is situational i suppose...

but QD -> any is a brick wall... too far and it leads open for jab, grab, utilt (and ftilt) ~for opponent
while too close, you don't use it and use a ftilt or utilt?

maybe this is the wrong interpretation...

It can't really be discussed any longer...

but Fair is a decent wall but it is slow and and doesn't auto cancel... (when the attack actually comes out)

Bair? Uair?

On taller characters on the roster, Uairs SSFF does tend to hit, and Uair's knock back is awesome, bair has a short hitbox which mean you'll have get pretty close with ike, (compared to majority of his attacks)

You're acting like the motion of quick draw in instant, it's not. Anyone can see you charge it, even for an instant, from "too far" and stop you cold with a projectile or just hit counter when they see it fly and still have the frames going when you get out of it, or they can see you charge it when you're too close and just block the thing and beat you out of it. I'm thoroughly sorry to engage in this discussion when it was requested that we do not but it's not a great move, it's a nice spacer but so is just moving, plus you get all of your defense options when you move naturally.

I'm glad someone mentioned ftilt, the range on it to keep people at bay is superb. If people DI away when you jab them this is practically guaranteed to be a safe option due to the recovery/range/speed of the move, if it's blocked you should be fine unless someone has an exceptionally fast far reaching front smash, like ivysaur.

This thread needs a bump, it had a lot of potential.

Anyways, I've been thinking more about the FAir wall. For those of you who don't know, FAir has IASA frames during its landing lag (+/- frame 22, rough estimate); during these frames, I usually jab. However, I've been experimenting with other attacks to create hitbox walls; FTilt and UTilt work amazingly well against people who try and wait for you to jab and have great horizontal range. An angled FTilt can even counter aerial approaches, but UTilt is much better in that scenario. I beat a Jigglypuff in a tournament match using FAir and UTilt walls, so it should theoretically shut out anyone who relies on an aerial approach without disjointed hitboxes (Kirby, possibly Yoshi, etc.).

Self induced traps

Well this thread should have gone a lot further than it did but I supposed Ike just doesn't have many set ups for traps. Even so I've wanted to bump it for the longest time to see if it could benefit from new data and I finally found something that might be worth another page or so of discussion.

Now everyone knows that there is something that divides the Ike boards up. It is a move that no matter how much it is looked into people are always willing to discuss it for about 40 pages every time a thread is made.

Know what I'm talking about? Thats right it's quick draw. People believe this move is a god sent others that it should never be used. Both of these are a bit ways off but something that no one should deny is that QD is a self inducing trap.

You should have read Both OPs that this thread is related to. The one in the link and this one's ofcourse but if you haven't a quick summary or definition of traps(call it what you like) would be: A trap basically limits your opponents movement or puts him into a bad position. The most noticeable ones are projectile spamming and Throws with set knock back or that you can't DI.
I still suggest reading trough EL's thread to get a better understanding but thats just for the lazy people.

Now that you have a grasp of what traps are you should be able to tell easily what QD does. It surrenders all your options except 2, stand there or go forward. Both aren't good options even though they can be used at times it is one of the most punishable moves out there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt9VZGHiKtE

Bad video but it still demonstrates just how punishable it can be since the normal reaction time of a human is 12 frames and the reaction time at tournaments is as low as 6 frames.

So basically what I want to discuss are these self trapping moves and how to bait them. A few that I can think of in the top of my head would be Zelda's din fire and Marth's up B. There are many times these moves are used to punish things Ike does but if we bait them into trying to punish us we could arguably gain a large advantage in the match.

Using these 2 moves I came up with to possible scenarios that can bait the move. The first would be to charge up QD when you are say 2/3 of FD away from Zelda. She will most likely use her Din's fire to try and hit you but Timing QD the right way can be used to go trough it and land a grab/jab on Zelda.

The second would be a fake jab cancel so that Marth tries to get out of it with Up B. After that he is left open for a possible Fsmash if you ground stalk him the right way and if not you should at least get in an aerial.

So can you think of a way of baiting these self inducing traps?

This is a -very- broad category. Throughout an entire match you are basically baiting your opponent's attacks for the sole purpose of punishing their mistakes. Nonetheless, I suppose we can still point some general techniques out as well as some that are more character specific than others.

It's a shame I can't really think right now :o

Hopefully other people will stop on by to get this going.

I think baiting is one of Ike's best ways of shifting the momentum in his favor, however I can't say he has a lot of character-specific utility going for him. A lot of his usage are mainly general.

Running to an opponent and baiting him/her to use a smash or tilt, then spotdodge -> punish is pretty much a good basic way to start off. However it's not entirely reliable from character to character.

Going more specifically, I'll touch up on one of the more used approaches for Ike using F-air. F-air is pretty spammable, so what if you bait prediction? If you give the opponent a thought that you'll just use F-air day and night, they would try to outsmart you and retaliate with either a counter or spot-dodge, or maybe even shield. From there on, you can do many things. You can switch up to N-air, or double-jump and do a D-air, or for more extreme cases if they're countering, you can simply land and punish with a tilt or jab.

I don't think QD has much use, but I do believe Eruption is much more useful for baiting, especially in the air. Case #1, your enemy is around 60-70%, Ike is around 80%. Your enemy knocks you into the air, and goes to follow-up to seal the deal. You then take advantage of Eruption's SA frames and use it, and send your opponent into a star KO.

That's possibly one of the most used tactics for Ike mainers, but Eruption can definitely be more branched out. It comes out rather reliably and the SA frames are pretty noticable. Wanna stop that annoying combo character from racking up damage? Kill his momentum completely with Eruption.

Of course these are rather extreme cases, as it means that you have to make your opponent believe that the match is fully in his/her control. Maybe others can come up with safer ways.

The only problem I have with this is that there are basically an infinite number of things one can do...

E.G. Bait dodging --> punish with ____.

Or the other case... Bait an attack --> punish with ____.

I mean those, in a nutshell, are the two categories everything falls under, since almost every attack Ike has punishes rather well...it's a matter of what isn't the most diminished (and also to make sure you don't **** it up).

I said it already, but there needs to be some character specific examples in here...or if there is something specific, feel free to share.

Also, never run up to someone and spotdodge...that's just asking to be grabbed.

Also, don't be spamming Fair...just use with spacing. Your best bet if they try to rush is to jab out of IASA frames.

Also, keep using Eruption to stop everything and see what happens. You see what happened? You just got baited.

Also, ...also.

Yep, I'm picky...funny what no sleep can do for a guy.

I always chose grab over jab when given the chance. Why? Because I can throw the opponent in the air and get a chance for hitting an aerial and can’t be punished afterwards if I miss. I’m not completely sure of this; I think it its possible to use SH Nair for baiting an air dodge and fastfall > grab afterwards before the opponent’s air dodge ending frames wear out. Of course, Ike’s grab range sucks, so you’ll have to sacrifice your spacing in order to use this move.

Kirk said:

The only problem I have with this is that there are basically an infinite number of things one can do...

E.G. Bait dodging --> punish with ____.

Or the other case... Bait an attack --> punish with ____.

I mean those, in a nutshell, are the two categories everything falls under, since almost every attack Ike has punishes rather well...it's a matter of what isn't the most diminished (and also to make sure you don't **** it up).

I said it already, but there needs to be some character specific examples in here...or if there is something specific, feel free to share.

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While I was thinking about it today I also said wow theres going to be a good number of these Which may actually be a good thing increasing Ike's options. How ever I'm not talking about every move that can be punished/baited I'm talking about things that sacrifice all movement/ options for something else. Practically all of these moves are specials.

The best example of this are probably recoveries. Most of them end up taking the user in one direction with little control after it is used. Some people use this to punish or escape moves which is why I used Marth's up B as an example.

Let's see something character specific, Well counters could be considered self traps as they don't allow characters to move for about a second. If you Bait you should go for a grab so you don't accidentally kill your self as well. At least I'd do that for lucario and peach since Idk how long they last.

Another thing would be MK's side B as this only leaves him with the option to go up or down. If anyone knows how to bait this it would be Fsmash heaven.

Yep, I'm picky...funny what no sleep can do for a guy.

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Didn't you say you where tired yesterday? How did you end up with no sleep lol.