Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #4: Zelda (Rediscuss)

Discuss everyone's favorite person to Smash DI out of. <_<

I noticed a while ago that Tink had a disadvantage towards Zelda and I wondered why. People seem to have a hard time approaching her din's fire. But since people started using the Zair more often, it stopped being gay. Just practice with a zelda player and you'll start predicting the range of the explosion.

Ewwwwww Zelda...


And I dont think I smash DI right

Avoid Din's fire and your pretty much set.

As I predicted. Main worry = Din's fire. Don't forget her Tilt air i think it is where she kicks you with a burst of magic, super powerful that sends you flying. Otherwise TL has the advantage over Zelda in power and speed.

-Be tricky with projectiles since she can reflect them

-also be tricky with your aeriáls since her smashes seem to out prioritize and range them. Mainly this is her doing them out of shièld

- short hop airdodge dins fire. Of course be unpredictable with it èspeciálly when recovering át a distance.

-bair ***** her.zaïr works well for range.

-predict her revovery and punish. Make sure to Space it though since it doès damáge and range around her.

Santi said:

And I dont think I smash DI right

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Me either, it seems like I have terrible DI sometimes and then decent DI some other time. Zelda is truly the test of how many times you can flick your control stick and C stick in particular directions per hit to avoid getting killed. <_<

I'd agree that Zair is probably the safest approach here. Mix up projectiles as usual. Also, her moves are for the most part easily telegraphed.If you're high above, expect an Uair and dodge accordingly. Side to side is Lightning Kick, etc.

Also, if you force up to do a full vertical recovery. Edgehog. She basically can't move at all horizontally upon her descent so she'll die.

Quivo, what's up with the umlauts? o_O

Also, to those who have yet to see the large "WTFness" of Din's Fire. Imagine Bowser.

Okay, now imagine Bowser exploding in your face, with his entire body as a hitbox. Now make a square outline of Bowser.

That's the gist of Din's Fire.

Now, any counterpicks? I find Delfino Square kinda good.

Which reminds me...

We never discussed Counrerpicks for Snake? xD

The way to play against zelda is evading Dins fire,remember to DI out of her F-Smash/Up-Smash and avoid her fair/bair. Anyway, I think T.Link has the advantage thanks to his speed and quick attacks. And yes, I consider a good counterpick Delfino Square because it moves alot and that doesnt help zeldas recovery =B

Bomber7 said:

As I predicted. Main worry = Din's fire. Don't forget her Tilt air i think it is where she kicks you with a burst of magic, super powerful that sends you flying. Otherwise TL has the advantage over Zelda in power and speed.

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Power? I think not, Zelda is a man on steroids. Her usmash has a crazy hitbox and can k0 you early if the opponent saves it. Zelda's fair is too good in the right hands, for those of us who rely on bair a lot we might have to change our strategy a bit against Zelda and perform more well placed nair's to arrow cancel instead. Dins fire is too easy to avoid, I don't know why so many people have trouble with it, just get the timing right and dins fire will be more of a blessing than a curse due to the ending lag of the move.

I was typing from my phone.

Sorry guys, but there is a LOT more to Zelda than just Din's Fire. For people not used to her, she has VERY deceptive range on the ground. Her down tilt chains, and it works better on smaller characters. Even if you start DIing it after the first kick, you're bound to take at least three kicks from it, which is around 15% with severe decay, and about 21% without. It also trips opponents, and it is probably Zelda's best start-up for a killing move, be it Dsmash, Fsmash, f-tilt, and u-tilt. Nayru's Love reflects TL's projectiles and it gives Zelda invincibility frames before the actual attack, and it is difficult to spotdodge. I don't know much about TL's abilities, but Zelda works best on the ground, and she has plenty of reach and priority against a huge chunk of the cast because she has a lot of disjointed hitboxes.

I don't know much about TL's airgame. It seems to be better overall. Zelda's uair goes past his dair and it kills at freakishly low percents, so watch out. Also watch out for her three lightning kicls. Sweetspotting them isn't as easy as it was in Melee, but good Zelda players won't have trouble landing them. I think his zair works, but don't rely on it.

I might provide more insight on this later if need be.

yea, most of you have prolly only played against noobish Zeldas that DF>run>DF>run c-stick...She is definitely slow in the air, but she has no problem with letting you land into an uptilt, upsmash, or even catching you offguard with the quick and potent uair. And you have to fight her close range due to NL..I dont see this matchup being in favor of TL at all.

AIRDODGE THE DINN'S FIRE!!!

ready...




ZAIR!!!


airdodging dinn's fire to zair cancels the advantage IMO. She's tall, and if you keep medium distance you can cut down on the spam and then fill in with some of your own.

But... Zelda doesn't use Din's so close that she gets punished by something like zair. She can throw up a shield mighty fast after detonating Din's, so if you hit her with it, that is totally the Zelda player's fault and not Zelda herself.

Also, I failed to address something important - Zelda's smashes have improved. Usmash is harder to DI out of, and Fsmash can only be DI'd if Zelda messes up the range.

Mwuhahahahhahaha!!!!!!

yes... continue to believe that you can neutralize din's fire and that doing so will completely destroy Zelda's gameplay. >=D

Continue to believe that you will ALWAYS DI out of Usmash and Fsmash... mwuhahahaha... CONTINUE to believe that those are her only KO moves and that you'll NEVER EVER get hit with any of her aerials... continue to think all these things... we love it when you underestimate our girl.... mwuhahahahahah

>=)

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:

Mwuhahahahhahaha!!!!!!

yes... continue to believe that you can neutralize din's fire and that doing so will completely destroy Zelda's gameplay. >=D

Continue to believe that you will ALWAYS DI out of Usmash and Fsmash... mwuhahahaha... CONTINUE to believe that those are her only KO moves and that you'll NEVER EVER get hit with any of her aerials... continue to think all these things... we love it when you underestimate our girl.... mwuhahahahahah

>=)

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....... ._.
What are you even doing on the Toon Link boards? o.O
Ehh nvm thats rude.
I'll just hold in my rant this time. =P

sasukebowser said:

....... ._.
What are you even doing on the Toon Link boards? o.O
Ehh nvm thats rude.
I'll just hold in my rant this time. =P

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what do you mean? what kind of matchup thread could this possibly be without input from both sides <.<?

^.^

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:

what do you mean? what kind of matchup thread could this possibly be without input from both sides <.<?

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Well I mean do you just look at all the other boards for Zelda topics or something? >_>
But no in all seriousness, Down throw -> lightning kick: Combo?

sasukebowser said:

Well I mean do you just look at all the other boards for Zelda topics or something? >_>
But no in all seriousness, Down throw -> lightning kick: Combo?

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what about it? it works, but it's not an instant thing... it requires some precision and good prediction of DI by Zelda... and you might be able to make it hard for her to land by DIing a certain way... I'm never on the recieving end so I can't be quite sure.

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:

what about it? it works, but it's not an instant thing... it requires some precision and good prediction of DI by Zelda... and you might be able to make it hard for her to land by DIing a certain way... I'm never on the recieving end so I can't be quite sure.

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Well I dont really use Zelda so I'm just guessing these sort of "low knock back -> strong attack" combos are favorable for her.
Do you know anything else that combos into Zeldas airials? ^_^

sasukebowser said:

Well I dont really use Zelda so I'm just guessing these sort of "low knock back -> strong attack" combos are favorable for her.
Do you know anything else that combos into Zeldas airials? ^_^

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normally, Zelda doesn't go aerial... I dunno... she's not a combo oriented character, though ftilt and dash attack pop them up at an ideal height at low damages, and Dtilt does at high damages... but I normall combo those into Usmash or Utilt isntead.

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:

normally, Zelda doesn't go aerial... I dunno... she's not a combo oriented character, though ftilt and dash attack pop them up at an ideal height at low damages, and Dtilt does at high damages... but I normall combo those into Usmash or Utilt isntead.

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Hmm...yeah thats probably better.
Ehh I have nothing else to say.
Thanks for answering my questions buddy =)

wow. its like all the boards think the only thing to zelda is dins and after that she's a completely useless character or something -___- even without dins most tinks have a hard time against zelda

That's because only a few people play against good Zeldas that actually do something else than din + usmash.

Wow. I'm extremely disappointed by the earlier responses. You guys don't seriously think all Zelda is capable of is Din's Fire, do you? Ever since Melee, Young Link has had trouble with Zelda. In Brawl, this hasn't changed with Toon Link. Let's take a closer look, shall we?

-Reflector. God I hate this thing. Completely shuts down your spamming attempts.
-Better range and hitboxes on her smash attacks. My lord. Toon Link's sword has no hope of ever outranging Zelda's outstretched sparkly hands. Even his down air succumbs to her up smash. It's really gay.
-Power, power and more power. Power characters are a threat to Toon Link since he's light, and Sheik/Zelda mains give me HUUUUUGE problems, it's ridiculous.

So what do we have here? Someone with a reflector, broken hitboxes (for Toon Link anyway) and lots of power. UH-OH.

I'm not even sure what to say about this matchup. If Zelda ever tries to hit you with a Din Fire on the ground, that's your best bet to sneak a quick projectile in. You're forced to play an up close game while being extremely defensive, because this woman's forward smash can **** your shield. Even up close it's dangerous. From her annoying down tilt to down smash or forward smash combo to any of her smashes...it's ridiculous.

The most important thing here is your throw. If you're stuck with an evasive Zelda, then good luck to you.

That's all I can say here. It's a pretty uphill battle, and you have to be very patient to find any openings and be quick when you do. x.x

I actually have more trouble with toon link than a lot of other charcters... but I'm an offensive Zelda, so that's a whole different ballgame.

Reflector is a bit laggy. Uair is powerful.

But Nayru's Love actually have beautiful offensive propperties attached to it. It's more than a reflector

Yukiwarashi said:

Wow. I'm extremely disappointed by the earlier responses. You guys don't seriously think all Zelda is capable of is Din's Fire, do you? Ever since Melee, Young Link has had trouble with Zelda. In Brawl, this hasn't changed with Toon Link. Let's take a closer look, shall we?

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I guess it's implied. But obviously no character in this game has that shallow of a gameplan except for maybe Meta Knight but that's because it works.

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:

But Nayru's Love actually have beautiful offensive propperties attached to it. It's more than a reflector

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Well, Reflectors all have offensive capabilities to them, why else did you think waveshining was feasible back in Melee? Although I feel as though Nayru's Love got a buff in this game. I don't really see how though, lol.

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:

Mwuhahahahhahaha!!!!!!

yes... continue to believe that you can neutralize din's fire and that doing so will completely destroy Zelda's gameplay. >=D

Continue to believe that you will ALWAYS DI out of Usmash and Fsmash... mwuhahahaha... CONTINUE to believe that those are her only KO moves and that you'll NEVER EVER get hit with any of her aerials... continue to think all these things... we love it when you underestimate our girl.... mwuhahahahahah

>=)

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If we avoid Din's Fire, it certainly forces one of us to approach. However, since Nayru's Love deflects our projectiles, it's usually us that approaches.

If we could always DI out of her Fsmash and Usmash, then we could on MK's tornado too. It doesn't work that way obviously does it? The game emphasizes multi-hit characters due to the way shielding works. Therefore, Smash DI becomes crucial even on lower-levels of play. Despite that though, most multi-hit moves always shine through one-hit moves.

Her KO potential for a character her weight is pretty much solid. Theoretically, with decent speed and great range, she can kill easily as she has many options for killing at her disposal. Her aerial moveset is for the most part, meant to kill, except maybe Nair. She has no problem on the ground either, for her smashes kill at good percentages, and I believe Utilt can kill too (too lazy to check). Din's Fire and Nayru's Love covers up the projectile heavy battles in this game, and Farore's Wind...

has excellent range in a recovery. However, I would say it is somewhat of a weakness. If she's forced to a vertical recovery, it seems that her lag allows for sufficient punishment. Also, should she be forced to descend, it doesn't seem like she has much horizontal movement. This makes her susceptible to ledgehogging when she's coming up, and for heavy punishment if she has to recover high.

So from what I've seen, I can only say that her weaknesses are due to the nature of her attacks, and to a lesser extent, possibly her recovery. She has the KO potential, the range, all that.

But Zelda players, is she safe on block?

Yes, she is very safe on block. Usmash easily eats through shields and usually hits the opponent with the last hit (the most important one). Fsmash pushes characters away who block it to prevent shield-grabs. Now, Toon Link might be able to shield-grab her, but I don't know about the range/speed of his grab. The main thing that punishes her is any aerials on a grounded opponent, though most people SH fair/bair on the way up to prevent this from happening.

Also, Nayru's Love as an attack is so much different from other reflectors because not only does she get the whole invincibility start-up like the others, the actual attack doesn't come out first thing; instead there are several hits afterwards and they go out a bit from her body, and you can't really counter the actual crystals. It is possible to spot-dodge it, but you need incredible timing with someone who doesn't have a crappy spot-dodge. The attack pushes the opponent in the direction Zelda is facing, so you don't have to worry about which side the opponent is on to get the desired position.

Her down-smash, albeit not that powerful, is wicked fast and has a very horizontal knockback trajectory.

VietGeek said:

IWell, Reflectors all have offensive capabilities to them, why else did you think waveshining was feasible back in Melee? Although I feel as though Nayru's Love got a buff in this game. I don't really see how though, lol.

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it comes out VERY fast, does moderate damage, ALWAYS sends the oponent in the direction Zelda is facing, meaning that she can throw someone off the edge who is behind her. if it connects, it has enough knockback that the foe cannot retaliate before Zelda recovers from cooldown unless they are heavy AND have low damage. It's invincible upon startup, can slow her falling as a mind game, can be cancelled off of edges, can be activated on the air for an attack that continues even after landing and has a decepitevly large amounts of active time (it continues to reflect even after the last hit of its attack) sends back projectiles at enhanced speeds... not sure if damage is also enhanced.

If we avoid Din's Fire, it certainly forces one of us to approach. However, since Nayru's Love deflects our projectiles, it's usually us that approaches.

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yes but it's silly to say that avoiding Din's FORCES Zelda to approach unless you have some means of forcing her to approach that she doesn't counter... otherwise she can just keep spamming Din's... I mean... why not if you aren't going to try to punish her? Also... it's rather conceited to assume that you will ALWAYS dodge din's... ask anyone who's ever played a good zelda. it's surprising how well she can use that move.

If we could always DI out of her Fsmash and Usmash, then we could on MK's tornado too. It doesn't work that way obviously does it? The game emphasizes multi-hit characters due to the way shielding works. Therefore, Smash DI becomes crucial even on lower-levels of play. Despite that though, most multi-hit moves always shine through one-hit moves.

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that's right.. you've got it.

Her KO potential for a character her weight is pretty much solid. Theoretically, with decent speed and great range, she can kill easily as she has many options for killing at her disposal. Her aerial moveset is for the most part, meant to kill, except maybe Nair. She has no problem on the ground either, for her smashes kill at good percentages, and I believe Utilt can kill too (too lazy to check). Din's Fire and Nayru's Love covers up the projectile heavy battles in this game, and Farore's Wind...

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Allof her "A" attacks KO at reasonable damages except Dtilt, Nair and Jab. And her Dtilt actually comboes into KO moves, so I'd say all but two A button attacks can. though Jab and Nair both have very good applications due to their ridiculously low cooldown times.
Also, Utilt kills at lower damages than Usmash (before 100% if fresh on TL) and Uair can Kill at just about 50% if she cathces him high enough and, even though it needs to be timed correctly, it goes right through his dair.

has excellent range in a recovery. However, I would say it is somewhat of a weakness. If she's forced to a vertical recovery, it seems that her lag allows for sufficient punishment. Also, should she be forced to descend, it doesn't seem like she has much horizontal movement. This makes her susceptible to ledgehogging when she's coming up, and for heavy punishment if she has to recover high.

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Zelda's recovery has great range, is very difficult to gimp due to it's invincibility frames while she's invisible, is VERY VERY unpredictable at most times, has little cooldown lag if she lands onstage with it. and is hard to edgeguard due to her ability to ledgesteal with it. It's downsides come from it's vulnerable startup animation, her delay in regaining character control after reapearing and her long landing lag if she has to reapear in the air above the stage.

So from what I've seen, I can only say that her weaknesses are due to the nature of her attacks, and to a lesser extent, possibly her recovery. She has the KO potential, the range, all that.

But Zelda players, is she safe on block?

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she;s probably best on a defensive game actually... she has one of the best defensive games in the entire game.

ZeroXMachine said:

Her down-smash, albeit not that powerful, is wicked fast and has a very horizontal knockback trajectory.

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you make it sound like it's weak...

at low damages, or when crouch cancelled, it can hit twice for rather substantial damage, and at higher damages it has very good knockback...

it's also can be comboed into by her Dtilt anytime it trips an opponent (which is quite common)

Also... at WORST it has completely vertical knockback... if DId impropperly, you actually get sent DOWN... and it has moderate power... EXCEPTIONAL power for a move of its speed and knockback.

Twiliz said:

That's because only a few people play against good Zeldas that actually do something else than din + usmash.

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The reason people say that without din's, zelda is crap is b/c she has a horrendous offensive game. She doesn't have very many (if any) safe approaches. Against Tlink, she has to approach b/c his projectiles are too good. He can linger just outside of NL distance and spam bombs and arrows, and boomerang and wait for her to use NL so he can run in and grab with his long ranged grab.

ZeroXMachine said:

Her down-smash, albeit not that powerful, is wicked fast and has a very horizontal knockback trajectory.

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If you have problems with it killing you, try to DownDI+zair the stage ledge. It's wicked.

DanGR said:

The reason people say that without din's, zelda is crap is b/c she has a horrendous offensive game. She doesn't have very many (if any) safe approaches. Against Tlink, she has to approach b/c his projectiles are too good. He can linger just outside of NL distance and spam bombs and arrows, and boomerang and wait for her to use NL so he can run in and grab with his long ranged grab.

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DanGR is so unbelieveably anti-Zelda it's not even funny.

I mean.. what he says all has a hint of truth but is a horribly distorted eaggeration most of the time.

- Her approach game is NOT horrendous. it's not as good as her defensive game, maybe even subpar, but it's certainly useable... anyone who thinks Zelda can't approach at all has simply never played a Zelda who knows how... though, that's honestly not surprising because many don't.

- Tink can't FORCE her to approach... if he wants to trade projectiles with her, she'll be more than happy to take anything he can dish out in return for Din's

- Tink's grab BARELY outranges NL... it might not even outrange that last hit. besides what are you taking about? if she just NLd then that means there is a projectile traveling towards Tink... is he just going to magically pass through it so he can grab her? And it's not like Zelda will be NL spamming, it's normally smarter to counter with Din's.

I know that the reflector does damage, and stuff, but it may be punishable with careful avoiding.
A good stage counterpick is one that has blocking platforms? Large boundaries?

TLMarth said:

I know that the reflector does damage, and stuff, but it may be punishable with careful avoiding.
A good stage counterpick is one that has blocking platforms? Large boundaries?

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It's more punishable by shielding than dodgeing since it lasts so long.

Stages that Zelda disslikes normally would be ones that make it difficult for her to sweetspot the ledge.... like lylat cruise.

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:

It's more punishable by shielding than dodgeing since it lasts so long.

Stages that Zelda disslikes normally would be ones that make it difficult for her to sweetspot the ledge.... like lylat cruise.

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Would Rainbow Cruise be good? Is her second jump good or poor?

Well I would take it that a moving stage such as that would propose an advantage, taking into account you move right or else the advantage could back fire and instead of you trapping Zelda, she could trap you and send you flying off stage.

Bomber7 said:

Well I would take it that a moving stage such as that would propose an advantage, taking into account you move right or else the advantage could back fire and instead of you trapping Zelda, she could trap you and send you flying off stage.

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helps stop Zelda from being able to turn into a fortress.

though, I mean, Raibow cruise... is that even allowed at most torunies?

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:

helps stop Zelda from being able to turn into a fortress.

though, I mean, Raibow cruise... is that even allowed at most torunies?

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Its a counterpick.
Her second jumps decent Viet. Not really vertical, but has some horizontal.