Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #3: Snake (REDISCUSSION)

VietGeek · Jul 23, 2008

Ratio: 55:45 Snake

OUTDATED; DISREGARD
Synopsis:

vanderzant said:
Match-up #3: Snake

Character Overview
For several months after Brawl’s North American release, Snake players dominated the tournament scene, and as a result many considered Snake to be ‘broken’ and ‘game-breaking.’ Fast forward to the present and Snake is surprisingly no longer the king of brawl as he once was. He obviously didn’t get any worse, it was just that the community adapted and learnt how to handle him better. The Toon Link players are one such community, and while certainly not having the advantage, we can still put up a fight to this once ‘unbeatable’ opponent.

Toon Link’s Advantages/Strategies
- It is very difficult to do, but out camping (or at least causing more damage) is an essential part of winning against Snake
- Stay away from snake. As a general rule, NEVER approach him head on (unless to punish a trip, laggy move, etc) or if getting that KO is your best option
- The air is where Toon Link excels against Snake. Force him to come at you via the air (above, sideways whatever) and bair him to hell and back.
- Zair is as important to use as ever (like any other match I guess) for spacing and general shield pressure. Use it as a “keep away” move and space it so you land out of his tilt range (unless it connects of course)
- You can do a lot of things out of zair that are useful such as aerials and grabs
- Again since TL wins in the air, save fair for that kill (after a zair possibly?)
- Gimp his recovery. Fair works and Dair if you’re game.
- Save Usmash until 130% if you intend to kill with it
- CP’s Rainbow Cruise and Delfino Square

Toon Link’s Disadvantages/What to look out for
- Snake’s tilts are all so ridiculous. They all can kill, have invisible hitboxes and rack up damage. Fast.
- Ftilt does 21% fresh and has good knockback. Comes out pretty fast
- Utilt has a weird hitbox (can hit from below snake) and comes out fast with good knockback.
- Dtilt, while not as great as his other tilts can be used while crawling
- Snake can kill you at low percents, where as TL will need to work harder and rack up more damage each stock
- Snake’s grenades and nikitas are annoying. Keep track of where they all are so you don’t accidentally land on them. You can duck and use your hero’s shield and the grenades should just bounce off you
- Getting that kill can often force TL to stop camping and zairing which most of the time doesn’t work that well
- Ban Smashville as a stage

Overall:
A many advantages as Toon Link may have over snake, one mistake can cost TL a stock. Where as Snake’s mistakes are hard to punish (or at least punish significantly), mess up one zair and Snake will be all over you. Getting a kill is also much harder for Toon Link. A lot of people on these boards believe Snake owns TL, while others still think our boy has the upper hand. In a perfect world, Toon Link is unstoppable but until then the score is 50:50 even (until somebody proves otherwise.)

Dark Nemesis · Jul 23, 2008

Snake is the closest thing to "broken" in this game.

With his godly tilts and grenade cooking, he can both outspace and outcamp Tink with ease.
Toon link has no advantage in this match up, but there's still hope.

Never, NEVER approach a Snake head-on. His tilts have a ridiculous range with an invisible hitbox.
Also, watch out for his grenades. If they're cooked, they will almost certainly hit, which gives him enough time to execute the Mortar Slide.

So if you can't camp or approach, what are you supposed to do?
Well, in this fight, your Boomerang is your best friend. It's good enough to stall his nikitas and stop his grenades. SHDA is really useful against any Snake to.
Since you outcamped and outranged, Tink will be in a great disadvantage. But due to his fast running speed (RUN! NEVER jump towards a Snake), you can easily run in and punish his lags.

Also, Snake's airgame sucks. Bring him up in the air and rack up damage. You can also gimp his recoveries easily.

Long story short: Toon Link is in a great disadvantage. But with smart play, mindgames and(smart use of) projectiles, Toon Link does still stand a chance.

One of Toon Link's hardest match ups.

30/70

Lobos · Jul 23, 2008

TL has alot of advantage over snake while he is in the air and can out camp snake. You are right saying to stay away from snake, just gotta rack up damage with items and keep up with the spacing then move in for the kill.

Yukiwarashi · Jul 23, 2008

Call me insane, but I don't think this matchup is as bad as you claim. 70/30 looks like a bit much. I will agree that Snake has the advantage, but it's not too bad for Toon Link.

Toon Link will definitely have to abuse his projectiles in this fight. One of the best things is that if the Snake is grenade happy and you're quick enough, hit him and the grenade will explode in his hands. But most Snake players shield and drop the grenade to create a nice defensive zone for themselves.

We've already gone through Snake's stupidly broken tilts, but I was surprised to see that no one mentioned Toon Link's lovely Zair. It's pretty safe and if it hits you can at least follow up with jabs. If you also find a way to get in Snake's zone you can juggle him with up tilt thanks to his heavy weight. But alas, that heavy weight is what makes Snake a difficult *******.

This is where the real problem kicks in. Not only can Snake knock out Toon Link at a low percentage, but he's heavy and he's got an excellent recovery. I find that my most common killing technique for Snake is not the forward smash, but my fair. There are also those rare moments when the Snake is below the level and he thinks he can use his C4 trick to get back up. Toon Link's dair spike can be used to finish him. =)

So in conclusion, while Snake's broken tilts are extremely dangerous, I find that a Snake player can get equally as frustrated dealing with three different types of projectiles. I really don't think the matchup is as bad as suggested.

ZeroXMachine · Jul 23, 2008

I agree with Snake being the closest to broken in the game. His CQC (close quarters combat) is ridiculous.

His f-tilt has several properties that probably shouldn't be in the same move. It's very very fast. The hitboxes are misleadingly large. It can 21% without decay (I think it decays to 16% or so eventually). It has really good knockback. If the target is on the ground for the first strike, it locks the target for a moment. I've seen Snake players take advantage of this by doing the first forward tilt, pausing for a second and then do the first f-tilt again and then do the second strike to maximize their damage output. If the target is in the air for the first strike, they will get knockback similar to the second strike's knockback.

His u-tilt has a stupid hitbox. I've seen it hit from below Snake. What the hell is that? The animation clearly shows that it shouldn't. Whatever, we have to deal with it. It comes out quickly and has good knockback.

His d-tilt is probably his least used tilt. It's still pretty good, but the ridiculousness of the other two tilts shadows this one. Snake's will sometimes crawl around and use this attack. It's funny, but scary.

His CQC is little overpowered imo. Spacing is difficult to do against his invisible hitboxes. Beware the CQC...

Trifroze · Jul 23, 2008

Snake's good recovery isn't so good here since TL can easily fair Snake while he's helpless during his up B.

Sosuke · Jul 23, 2008

Ehh stay in the air.
camp. (bombs mostly)
Don't get tilted.
Watch out for those mine things. (especially at places like Lylat Cruise where it hits you even if its on the upper platform).
Also, do the Lobos method. I'd say it works wonders on Snake. =)

And if he throws a grenade at you duck and let it hit your shield. They'll feel dumb. :chuckle:

Nice tags btw.

Santi · Jul 23, 2008

How could you have advice against that ^^^^^

It just shows I'm crazy

You can't beat crazy..

Anyways... on the real matchup for the week..Snake

I LOVE LOVE LOVE the ZAir against him.
It works wonders against him, and you can do it from mid-range so you can keep safe from those broken Tilts. If the Zair hits ofcourse you can follow it with a grab or basically whatever you want.

Anf if the Zair hits him low and it's hard to safely follow up. No biggee. Just Nair or Bair ( I even Fair sometimes) after the Zair. Followed by a quickdraw.

Zair pushes them away, followed by a mid-range aerial then quickdraw.
It can space so perfectly sometimes plus its safe. That can drive a snake crazy if you play like that all match.

Just keep poking the fire :D
But keep your distance.

Everyone pretty much covers it.
Mix up projectiles.
**** his recovers.
I'm glad we toon users know how to play against this broken ***** now.
We'll start to own this man even harder and put TL on the map.

Liquid_Kai? · Jul 23, 2008

I'd deffinatly have to agree with Yukiwarashi (yes i had to copy and paste that)

I've been playing as toon link recentlty and have been really enjoying his playstyle. Against snake (my friends main) its always a VERY close matchup nearly every game, a match can last from 5 to 10 minutes because it can get really intense as its hard for tink to aproach but also hard for snake to play agressivly either.

Just make sure you dont **** up by trying to spike him with a Dair off the stage and missing, i am criminal at doing stupid things like that.

Also, your arrows slightly put snakes nikitas off course with you can run through and get a quick uptilt combo going (sneaky eh?)

Just keep spacing far and going in quickly for the aproach, run back and repeat. Throw in a few mindgames with the bombs for good meassure.

Yeah snake is strong, but deffinatly beatable.

l SOUP l · Jul 23, 2008

I did not want to discuss Snake because this is a 60/40 in Toon Link's favor.

> Toon Link outcamps him
> Use Zair to space
> Save your usmash until 130%+
> Spike his stupid recovery
> You can also bair the living crap out of him
> Anticipate his tilts, if you block them at close range punish him with fsmash

Bomber7 · Jul 23, 2008

*applauds eveyone* Nicely put yall. Ok that pretty much was a reviewing failure or more or less settled in no time flat. Shall we move on?

Beetle Juice · Jul 23, 2008

well i have played with tl and i am good w/ him (but he's not my main) and i have faced good snakes before. I don't know if aneone noticed but i believe that TL's is extremely important on this game. think about, snake won't fight you in the air, he won't spot dogde that much most snakes either walk towards you, run and shield, and finally boost smash across the stage. that is snakes only approach on TL and TL can grab him and keep him in the air. NEVER i mean NEVER approach snake with bairs and nairs unless he is in the air already. when you are in a close range position i would reccomend you either retreat, or jab cancel to grab (i personaly think TL has a incredicle jab cancel) or a up tilt.

TL as grab range that can help him against snake broken tilts (except dtilt) and keeping snake in the air should be his main priority.

Bomber7 · Jul 23, 2008

No offence to any of you guys, but Snake is kinda boring to me, I could fall asleep and win against him and wake up and not know it. Sure I find him fun because I could use him as a strategy/trap charater but, because of his spot on the not yet made tiers(TR4Q), I'd prefer not to use him. Besides, I like being apart of THE FEW, THE PROUD,THE....(not marines lol had you there). Pokemon Trainer. I use TL and Marth as my other mains/back up.

Rawrness · Jul 23, 2008

Beetle Juice said:
well i have played with tl and i am good w/ him (but he's not my main) and i have faced good snakes before. I don't know if aneone noticed but i believe that TL's is extremely important on this game. think about, snake won't fight you in the air, he won't spot dogde that much most snakes either walk towards you, run and shield, and finally boost smash across the stage. that is snakes only approach on TL and TL can grab him and keep him in the air. NEVER i mean NEVER approach snake with bairs and nairs unless he is in the air already. when you are in a close range position i would reccomend you either retreat, or jab cancel to grab (i personaly think TL has a incredicle jab cancel) or a up tilt.

TL as grab range that can help him against snake broken tilts (except dtilt) and keeping snake in the air should be his main priority.

How do you jab cancel?

VietGeek · Jul 24, 2008

Rawrness said:
How do you jab cancel?

Any jab that's multihit (*cough*not Marth's*cough*) can usually be canceled into another action by letting the move stop out of time with each normal duration to allow you to buffer in another action.

For TL, the first and second hit can be jab canceled. It's hard to explain in words though; just try it. It's easy.

I guess we all banded together to discuss Snake oh so quick, eh? So about Santi...<_<

90-10 match-ups against the entire cast except Dojo?

Beetle Juice · Jul 24, 2008

the fastest way to jab cancel w/ TL is to do a job or two then tap down so you don't have to wait and it comes out pretty fast. try it out rawness

ADMJP · Jul 24, 2008

the tags on this thread are full of win.

BTW, you cant spike through the cypher, but a fair will usually knock him off...but most snakes tend to recover high so you dont really get the opportunity anyway. Just keep him up there as long as you can once he does.

Santi · Jul 24, 2008

VietGeek said:
Any jab that's multihit (*cough*not Marth's*cough*) can usually be canceled into another action by letting the move stop out of time with each normal duration to allow you to buffer in another action.

For TL, the first and second hit can be jab canceled. It's hard to explain in words though; just try it. It's easy.

I guess we all banded together to discuss Snake oh so quick, eh? So about Santi...<_<

90-10 match-ups against the entire cast except Dojo?

Lmao. VietGeek your bad***

I would give it 9.7/.03 Advantage Dojo.

I bet half the people here could beat me haha. They prolly know all my moves and know me better than I know myself from my videos.

Just dont get MK. And I'm clueless.

l SOUP l · Jul 24, 2008

ADMJP said:
the tags on this thread are full of win.

BTW, you cant spike through the cypher, but a fair will usually knock him off...but most snakes tend to recover high so you dont really get the opportunity anyway. Just keep him up there as long as you can once he does.

I have spiked Snake's recovery several times, it all depends at what angle you use dair on him.

Crank · Jul 24, 2008

ADMJP said:
the tags on this thread are full of win.

BTW, you cant spike through the cypher, but a fair will usually knock him off...but most snakes tend to recover high so you dont really get the opportunity anyway. Just keep him up there as long as you can once he does.

I've done it tons of times, thats where 60% of my Snake kills come from

Liquid_Kai? · Jul 24, 2008

l SOUP l said:
I have spiked Snake's recovery several times, it all depends at what angle you use dair on him.

But make sure you dont miss!

QUIVO · Jul 24, 2008

if you can, utilt sets up bair combos really well. **** him with it.
projectile spam is so good against snake, watch out for them nades
knock him out of his recovery with fairs or spike him
space well, and follow patterns. you'll usually know when they'll use tilts/jabs

VietGeek · Jul 26, 2008

Well, considering Dojo is a no-show (lol), I think we should vote on our next discussion.

Crank · Jul 26, 2008

coughcoughzeldacoughcoughpotatos

Bomber7 · Jul 26, 2008

eh... Zelda would be ok. I see probably the main worry would be the Din's Fire spam and lets not forget about her high heel kick in the air that sends you shooting of screen. But hey why not.

Zelda Vote: 1

Trifroze · Jul 26, 2008

I'd see a metaknight one much more useful.

JesiahTEG · Jul 27, 2008

I don't have a crapload to say here as I already made a matchup on this, but Toon Link really has to keep Snake in the air and edgeguard the crap out of him to win this.

Yukiwarashi · Jul 27, 2008

Hm. Next one...how about...meh. Zelda's good.

fabianmo · Jul 28, 2008

Against a snake you gotta play defensive style, remember his most safe approach is his dash, therefore is quite predictable. Just rack up damage with his/ your projectiles and when you got a chance approach and attack. BTW, if you get him in the air you will have ALOT of advantage, so try to get him in the air as much as you can. At least thats how I play against a Snake

Dojo · Jul 29, 2008

Against santi.

Go MK. Mix tornado spam and aerial pressure. Then gimp him when he goes off edge. Then listen to him say he sucks. Bye bye. =]

ZeroXMachine · Jul 29, 2008

Any ideas on counterpicks? I'd say Rainbow Cruise.

Santi · Jul 29, 2008

Dojo. said:
Against santi.

Go MK. Mix tornado spam and aerial pressure. Then gimp him when he goes off edge. Then listen to him say he sucks. Bye bye. =]

So in other words be a teir queer

Dojo · Jul 29, 2008

Nahh you can go cf and do jab to dthrow combo's, space badass aerials and throw in sick mindgames and your done.

VietGeek · Jul 29, 2008

Dojo. said:
Nahh you can go cf and do jab to dthrow combo's, space badass aerials and throw in sick mindgames and your done.

So...

be a Gentleman?

Oh, and I think Rainbow Cruise and Delfino Square are the best CPs for Snake. Ban Smashville as a neutral also.

Because the platform is a battleship.

Snake + Platform + Usmash = Battleship

Sosuke · Jul 29, 2008

Eh just to add something, snakes sometime do that dumb "A-> tilt" thing.
Idk anything about it but I've had it done to me.

Also, Santi and Dojo live in Texas? =o
I'm visiting there in 2 weeks.

Dojo · Jul 29, 2008

Most snakes ban Rainbow Cruise.
Delfino would be good.

What part sasuke?

Sosuke · Jul 29, 2008

Yeah that one part of Delfino with the small pillars and water underneath advantages TL.

...I forget.
Uhh...hmm San Antonio i think? I'll ask later today.

VietGeek · Jul 29, 2008

sasukebowser said:
Eh just to add something, snakes sometime do that dumb "A-> tilt" thing.

I'm pretty sure that you can DI away and buffer in a roll to get away from most of the tilt set-ups.

You can also try to max DI away and buffer a shield, in case he tech chases you with mortar slide or whatever.

Sosuke · Jul 29, 2008

And Snake does this one amazing shield->C-4 thing.
ANYTIME they powershield a melee (close range) attack, they can stick you.
Its like, beyond lame.
So I suggest Nair to quickdraw a lot, I don't think there will be time to stick you.
Not sure though.
But if he does, run into him and it'll stick to him.
Then just keep away.

Tiersr4Queers · Mar 27, 2009

Dx why is it so hard to grab release this guy ugh. **** our chain sometimes.

Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #3: Snake (REDISCUSSION)

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