Marth's Traps and Brickwalls

Ok, so this is essentially a continuation of an article I wrote yesterday. So, check that out before reading on. Here is the link.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183816


Read it? Understand it?

Excellent.

This thread will explain what brickwalls and traps Marth has at his disposal and how to escape some common traps that can be done to him. Let's get started.


D-tilt Trap

Might as well start with a bang. Marth's best trap and the second best trap in the game after MK's d-tilt trap. As you may or may not know Marth's d-tilt comes out in 7 frames and has IASA frames. IASA stands for Interruptible As Soon As. This means he can cancel the ending lag of the d-tilt when it reaches a specefic point in it's animation. For this attack that point is when Marth retracts his arm. The exact frame that you cancel at is 21. Normally the D-tilt animation last 47 frames. So when you cancel it the recovery time is reduced by half. This makes it an amazing shield pressure tool and one of the best pokes in the game. The d-tilt trap abuses these qualities for an almost airtight trap that an opponent is hard pressed to get out of. Doing it is very simple as well.

All you have to do to start the trap is space a d-tilt as a poke. The trap is initiated when your opponent shields or spotdodges. After that Marth has options to either punish any action his opponent takes or at the very least he will be unharmed and in a position to reset the trap and/or stay in control of the match. Now I will list each action an opponent may take and the appropriate counter.

Opponent rolls behind Marth - Wait for the roll and punish with Dancing Blade.

Opponent spot dodged the D-tilt - Punish with Dancing Blade when they come out of the dodge.

Opponent SH's back - Run towards your opponent and do a well spaced SH fair or just run into Dancing blade. You can also just walk towards them and reset the trap when they land or block and punish if they tried to attack when you walked towards them.

Opponent rolls away - Walk towards them and reset the trap.


It's clear that the two best options are roll away and SH back. Most seasoned veterans will roll away since it's the safest and fastest option. But if you expect that you don't even have to wait for the roll. You could just d-tilt then cancel into a full run and then grab or Dancing Blade while they are vulnerable from the roll. Your opponent could also try to shield drop and attack you or jump from the shield and attack, but these options are very risky and easily punishable by Marth. Good players will not attempt to do this. R.O.B and DK might try to hit you after a blocked d-tilt but if you space it at the tip, and watch for their reaction you can block their attack and retaliate. Projectiles users may also try to SH back or shield drop into their projectile, but again, it's a matter of being able to make split second reactions to your opponent's actions. Needless to say it will take alot of practice to fully master the d-tilt trap, but it is worth the effort.


Other Attack Traps

Marth has another attacks trap other then the d-tilt trap. It uses his SHFF fair. It work the same way as his d-tilt trap, but it isn't as good IMO for several reasons. The fair is good , but it has less range then d-tilt and it's slightly more predictable since Marth has to reach the height of his SH before he can FF fair. Still it's good to know that he has another option and you should use it if the situation calls for it. Fair will definitely see use since it acts as a trap and a brickwall, but more on that later.


Juggle Traps

This is just a repeat of what I said in my other thread, so I'll copy and paste.

A juggle trap is simple and very common in Brawl. Since you can't do true juggles like in Melee or most other fighting games, it has become an effective strategy to draw out the airdodge of an opponent so you can hit them when they come out. I will use Marth and Snake for this example. Marth is good at juggles and Snake is bad at getting out of juggles. If Marth u-throws Snake his options are instantly limited. There isn't much Snake can do that isn't risky to try to get out of this juggle trap. All Marth has to do is do a SHFF Uair when Snake is above him then do an U-smash right after. The Uair is there to force Snake's airdodge and when timed correctly it will beat any of Snake's aerials. If Snake does airdodge then he will eat Marth's U-smash and the trap is reset. Juggle traps can be extremely difficult to get out of. In this situation Snake is better off going for a ledge then trying to land on the stage, but even then Marth could attack before he manages to grab the ledge. This situation is in Marth's favor by a wide margin. There is very little chance that he will be hurt by doing this and a very great chance that he will remain in control as he keeps Snake in the air.

Click to expand...

Marth has quite a few juggle trap set-ups. Namely, the last up b hit of Dancing Blade and U-throw. Those will be his most common juggle set-ups.


Ledge Traps

Very easy to do and very effective. I will do another copy and paste of my explanation of this from my other thread.

When an opponent is on the ledge they have several options. They have roll get up, ledge hop into an aerial, ledge attack, normal get up and ledge jump. If you space yourself so that their get up attack would miss you if they tried, you have effectively covered most of their options. If they roll get up you can just throw them back out or get a free attack. If they normal get up then you can just rush in and attack or grab and throw them back out to reset the situation. The best two options would be ledge hop aerial or ledge jump. But if you are facing a character with bad ledge hop options or a character that is easily juggled then you know they are limited to one option or the other. Some characters like Snake have poor ledge jump options AND are easily juggled. As you can imagine, Snake does not like ledge traps. But abusing traps like this is key to beating certain characters since it takes advantages of certain weaknesses they may have.

Click to expand...

Marth is beastly at ledge traps and they are very very easy to do. And usually the best option is a ledge jump so from there you can start a juggle trap. This makes ledge traps really effective because it allows you to flow from one trap to another.


Throw Traps

Marth's f-throw and d-throw are good throw traps. Most opponents will usually either airdodge immediately or jump. If they airdodge just dash into a Dancing Blade. If they jump, then they just set them self up for a juggle trap or you can just reset your spacing. These traps are pretty straight forward and I'm sure alot of you use them without realizing it.


Brickwalls

Marth's Brickwalls involve zoning with his range. There is no special trick to it and we all do it I'm sure. His brickwalls usually consist of weaving back and forth in the air using his good aerial movement while SH double fairing. If you are like me then you mix in some d-tilts and jabs in there too. Using Fairs as a brickwall can lead to a fair trap pretty easily. If you were zoning with fairs and then hit your opponents shield with a fair then you can fair trap from there which is good. Zoning with Marth is pretty standard though and there are many variations of it. Another thing I like to do is d-tilt walls with jabs and abuse the IASA frames to dash back into first hit of Dancing Blade to stop my momentum. Marth call do all sorts of walls so experiment.


Getting out of Traps and breaking through walls

We as a community will discuss what each and every character can do to trap or wall Marth and what responses he has to get out of them. As we do this I will update this section. For now I will say that yes, Marth can be ledge trapped and juggle trapped to some degree of success. It's up to us as a community to figure out ways around these weaknesses.


What works and what doesn't

Obviously certain characters cannot be juggled trapped while others can't be ledge trapped. The success of traps will vary from character to character and this is something we must talk about. Just like the other section, I will leave this alone for now until we have more confirmation on what works on who and all the options that each character has to try to get around Marth's traps.



Now please discuss.

Emblem Lord made another thread! OMGEPIC

/just kidding

Good read though. Nice stuff. ^^

I'd like to discuss more about Marth's throws..

Like previously stated in the OP, most people will air dodge on reaction after Marth throws them. This allows you to either dash into dancing blade, OR dash and simply grab them again.

If you grab again you are putting them in the same situation they were before but you are racking up damage at the same time.

Take a look at this vid vs. DK from 0 - 0:30 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSK1iQxphiA

0:14, dk is an easily juggled target because of how big he is and his limited options from underneath. I punish the missed bair and grab him.

0:15, i predict the air dodge after i d throw him, he does so, and i grab again and continue to rack up damage

0:17, i fthrow him off the stage putting him in an even worse position, he takes multiple hits from me before he is safely back on the stage.

0:23, DK air dodges back onto the stage (something that is very often done by all players) and is in the perfect position to be grabbed again.

0:26, this time i do an up throw, seeing as DK is easily juggled since he is such a large target.

0:28, he air dodges back onto the stage expecting an attack to keep him juggled. At this point I could have easily grabbed him again, but I punish him in a different way and go with an fsmash. He's once again in a bad spot and off the stage.

Just like that DK is at 106%, the whole time I maintained control because of the few grabs i did by punishing the air dodge to put him into bad situations. (i still lost the match though cus im so bad at this game)

That's just one example of how effective marth's grab game can be. It's all about putting your opponent in a bad position.

Um....Steel? Do you really think it is safe to post a vid like that in one of EL's threads? lol j/k. I think i learned a few things from watchin that video about habits players have and how to abuse them. U actually got a lot better from the last time a fought u. If ur up for a rematch, just let me know .

Other traps that marth can be put in are essentialy W.O.P's. Ex.'s peach's double jump F-air, luigi's double B-air, jiggz double and or triple B-air, .... You get the point right? Well anyway various ways to stop and reset these W.O.P's are to anticipate there jump and when you do... stop there jump with a jab, or either a F-tilt to simply reset your opponent and to give you a chance to set-up a trap of your own
It is best to use these two options as d-tilt will only get you hit in the face and so would f-air simply because of where they are positioned and by the time you are in the air they are already hitting you.
But you can follow up with a grab after the jab or you can rack damage and reposition yourself with the f-tlit

SH f-air without the fast fall is pretty **** safe you can do everything out of it... Not sure if you would call it a trap but I just change what I'm doing after depending on how the opponent reacts and his pattern.

Emblem Lord said:

Opponent spot dodged the D-tilt - Punish with Dancing Blade when they come out of the roll.

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Cause I know I'll forget if I don't mention it now, I think you mean punish with DB when they come out of the spot dodge. =b

Post again after I finish it.

Edit: Finished. Lol, most of it was already mentioned in your last thread though. But I am looking forward to going through the characters and figuring out how to get past their traps. =]

If Marth messes up his traps or spacing then their is obviously detrimental consequences. But this thread is very informational. Learn something new everyday lol

Let's begin talking about what each character can do in regards to brickwalls and traps.

Let's start with MK. What walls and traps does he have and how effective are Marth's walls and traps?

Well as you stated in your main thread MK has the best brickwalls and traps in the game. (Well, very very good at the least)

From his dtilt that is similar to range in Marth, but can easily trip (which is god AWEFUL).
MK's pretty much have the ability to not have to consciously think of a trap to 'trap'. Let's take the air for example. If you're in the air as a Marth against an MK you're in a bad situation, he has trapped you.
He can u-tilt, upsmash, FOLLOW YOU INTO THE AIR, and if you try to land safely can be often spaced and grabbed or downsmashed.

MK resets his traps with the utilts and usmash.

Marth's traps/walls can be hard to work with. The idea of 'perfect spacing' is a must when wanting to wall MK. On the otherhand trapping MK is most likely only highly usuable as shock value. MK can counter your traps with the same moves with less danger than we would want...

Well MK in general has traps and walls in almost all of his arsenal. MK grabs setup pretty nicely, hid D-throw sets up for another grab, F-air, dash attack or tornado. His upthrows sets up for shuttle loop and some aerial activity. His Tornado Forces Marth to either run from it, counter it, smash it or shield it. His tilts control space and chip away at shields. He is faster than Marth and because of it can apply pressure faster than most character in the game. And when he's off the ledge he can gimp people fairly easy with pretty much all of his aerials. Above MK means that you can counter or air dodge. Counter probably won't hit MK from below and air dodging can be punished by shuttle loop.

Marth going against MK means playing defensively and knowing when to stop applying aggro when its not needed. Marths best tool in this fight is DB because of how much a MK is predictable with D-smash. Marth can space himself out with F-airs and reset the battlefield. You can grab and throw MK forward and MK would expect an aerial, because of that they will probably air dodge and you can then grab them again and start another grabbing game. His grabs are his friend in this match up due to the fact that you want to save his smashes for kill moves.

This thread is dead sexy. I'm tempted to make a Lucario version since he's quite decent at this stuff as well.

But I never thought of Marth as a trapper/brickwaller in Brawl. I'm probably going to start using him more now.

Edit: by the way...I think ROB has a better dtilt trap than Marth. His dtilt comes out faster and ends sooner, and it has just as much range and trips 50% of the time. ROB may not have dancing blade, but he does have downsmash.

Also, Wolf's dtilt has only SLIGHTLY less range, comes out faster, but cancels a few frames slower.

MK's sword mixed with the speed that he swings it at is a brickwall in itself. One of his best grounded Brickwalls is his Ftilt. After the first hit comes out all he has to do is wait for a split second to decide what to do against his opponent. If the opponent shielded, he can go for the dash grab or a poke of some kind (perhaps continue the ftilt for shield pressure, but probably just got into dtilt). If the opponent rolls toward him it's over for them, they will be punished. If they spotdodge ftilt can be continued into the 2nd and 3rd attacks to connect. If they try to SH away then SH fair / Mach Tornado can punish or MK can respace the Brickwall. Rolling away is the same (though safer, so MK will probably respace).

Marth has a few options against this. You can roll away to reset the spacing and give yourself time to prepare for MK setting up another brickwall. You can shield the first two hits and spotdodge the last (This probably won't result in a shield poke if he continues the ftilt combo, but if he throws in a dtilt you will probably get hit). You can mix up by starting with a shield and then throwing a counter in right afterwards (this will probably discourage the MK from being overly aggressive).

Marth has a very similar Brickwall to MK's Ftilt: Dancing Blade. They are slightly different, as MK can land all 3 hits much faster than Marth can finish the DB, but he has fewer options (up / down / forward variants on DB, and times to end the DB and go into something else).

Also I think that Marth has one of the best options in terms of traps / brickwalling. If you use the shieldbreaker at opportune times during traps / brick walls, you will condition your opponent not to shield. This gives you an offensive edge, as the shield is the only thing that makes you impervious to attacks. Spotdodges and airdodges can be punished due to Marth's quick attack rate (DB, SH Double Fair, etc..). Rolling can be chased or punished.

Conversely, if you want to, you can condition your opponent to shield by barraging with attacks and remaining outside of their range (this won't work on characters with lots of range like MK). Then after you can predict when they'll shield, (perhaps empty SH at them) nail them with a shieldbreaker or grab them right out of that shield.

NESSBOUNDER: That's more of combo then a trap since whether it trips or not he can follow it up. But R.O.B is slightly more vulnerable if an opponent blocks. He leans his body in quite far for the d-tilt making him more likely to be grabbed or punished from shield. What makes a trap good is not just utility, but safety.


Anyway, back to MK.

So Metaknight has his Mach Tornado which acts as a brickwall and a trap, his d-tilt trap, juggle traps and ledge traps vs Marth. He also has an f-tilt trap, but it works under the same principles as his d-tilt rap ,but is slower with less range so MK's will stick with the d-tilt trap for the most part. So how does Marth deal with MK's traps?

Counter Measures

D-tilt Trap - One method is prevention. If they don't trap you then you don't have to worry about getting out of it. Marth's F-smash outranges MK's D-tilt. If you see that MK is constantly trying to space you with his d-tilt you can throw out an f-smash and when done correctly you will smash his head in with the tipper. This is really just a scare tactic. If you do this once maybe twice MK will be afraid to try to catch you with the d-tilt trap. You could also try to rush him with Dancing Blade while he is trying to space correctly and you may catch him offguard. SHFF fair will also beat MK's d-tilt since Marth is in the air, so if MK abuses it you have another answer right there. Ok, well prevention doesn't always work though so what can be done if he hits your shield with the d-tilt? Your two best options are roll away or SH back out of shield. If he waits for those reactions he can dash attack your roll or grab or he can SH fair when you SH out of shield. You really just have to mix it up. No one is psychic. You have to try to read his habits and his play style. If the MK has a habit of always dash grabbing after d-tilt then you may try rolling towards MK and he will most likely dash grab in the other direction anyway on reaction. You must stay on your toes and keep your wits about you. You could also try shield drop to Dancing Blade if you notice the MK likes to wait patiently for a reaction. Being rushed down so suddenly may catch him offguard. Generally the first few times he does the trap you will want to roll away or SH back to reset your spacing. But each time you do observe the MK's actions so the next time you get caught in the trap you know what he is most likely to do and you can choose an appropriate counter measure. MK has his F-tilt trap, but the methods are all the same so refer back to this if you want to know how to deal with that.


Juggle Trap - MK is very good at these. Pretty much the best in the game at doing it. Marth is a little better off then about half the cast in this situation, but it's still a tough spot to be in. When you are in the air there are some things you can do to mess with MK's timing. You can neutral b which will give you some forward momentum you might also be able to stall in the air with forward b. These two things are just for messing with MK's timing. If MK goes up to chase you then you have a few options. You can try to come down with a dair, but that's risky. You can also try to counter, but again this is risky. The best thing to do is airdodge through him and remember to fast fall before you airdodge. If you don't it will be easier for MK to dair you after you pass through him. If the MK likes to try to hit with his up b then you really need to fast fall airdodge and try to hit the ground quickly. Also be aware of the max height of his up b so you know when you are within it's hitzone. Lastly MK can just choose to wait for you to try to land and then grab u-throw, u-smash or d-smash. In this case once again you need to fast fall and when you are close to the ground, you can try to counter or dair him. You can try fair if you maneuver yourself to the side of him which is a better option. Overall though this is one trap where you need to be very very observant. MK has alot of options so you need to be able to play smart and make split second decisions. And remember the most important rule. FAST FALL!!!!!!!!


Mach Tornado Trap - Most characters envy Marth when it comes to beating the Mach Tornado. Nothing to fear here. Marth has two reliable answers to this move. One is counter and the other is up b. You could even up b while the tornado is on top of your shield. Nothing much else to say. There is a reason why MK's don't spam tornado vs Marths. Marth laughs at it.


Ledge Trap - If your opponent spaces themselves from the ledge then Marth has to take some risk to get out of the situation. This is universal when he is fighting any character. Generally your only safe options will be ledge jump and ledge hop Nair. But you can also try other methods if your opponent has been conditioned to expect one of the two previous options. Ledge hop nair really helps Marth out in this situation though, so don't be afraid to pull it out of your opponent is spaced too far from the ledge. MK himself is very fast and can d-smash you back out on the ledge or set-up up for edgeguarding so your nair would have to be precise. As always be careful and observant. If your opponent is too close to the ledge you can roll from the ledge or if they are within range of your get-up attack then use it. Remember that your options depend on your opponents spacing so keep your eyes open.


Throw Traps - MK has a d-throw trap. But you can DI it pretty easily since you have ample time to decide how to DI. If you DI away it makes it harder for MK to follow up. You can counter if he usually attacks or try to fair him. You could also jump away, but that puts you in a bad position. Generally as long as you DI well this trap isn't too much to worry about. The sucky thing is that it gives MK enough time to set-up a d-tilt trap. If the MK tends to wait for your reaction after a d-throw you can rush him with Dancing Blade.


What works and What doesn't


D-tilt Trap - This is going to be tougher to set-up vs MK, but once you do there really isn't much difference in how MK will handle it then you would vs MK. Refer back to counter measures to get a feel for what he is most likely to do to escape the trap. This is basically a war to see who can read the other one better, but the gamble is in favor of the one who initiated the trap. It's your trap so it's your advantage. Even if he gets out unharmed you didn't lose anything by starting the trap, so don't do anything risky that might cause you to be trapped in return or take damage. And don't berate yourself if he gets out. His safest options are roll away and SH back. You know the way to counter each of those methods, so keep a cool head. The safest thing to do when someone gets out of the trap is to simply reset your spacing and reset the trap.


Ledge Trap - You really can't ledge trap MK. He can ledge stall with his side B or glide to the side of the stage. He can also do up b's to get you to back off and give him more room. Generally he has too many options on the ledge to effectively trap him. Of course just being on the ledge he is at disadvantage, but it's not a huge disadvantage by any means. All you can do is be observant and try to cover the option he is most likely to take when he wants to get back on the stage.


Juggle Trap - You will have slightly more success with this then the ledge trap. But MK still has options. When he is in the air he has his multiple jumps, gliding ability and he can use his down b to get to the ground. As always you need to be patient. As he tries to come down pressure him FF Uairs to force him to dodge or use jumps. If he airdodged then you can get a free hit when he gets close to you. If he glides you just need to give chase on the ground and position yourself so you can take advantage when he either cancels the glide or attacks. If he uses down b you can actually hit him before he disappears completely. Otherwise just hold shield and when he re-appears you can try to attack him or set-up a d-tilt trap. If you can't do that then just reset your spacing. This is another situation where MK is only at slight disadvantage, but you still shouldn't do any thing risky. Keep your cool and you can come out on top.


Brickwalls - Harder to do vs MK thanks to his range on his d-tilt, it's still a valid strategy vs him. Using Marth's aerial mobility is a must when walling MK as you need to constantly re-adjust your spacing otherwise he will bust through your wall with ease using a dash attack or a dash grab.


Throw Traps - Marth has something better on MK and thats the grab release. But when that's not applicable Marth has throw traps on MK with f-throw and d-throw. Usually MK's will airdodge right after and Marth gets a free attack. Usually a Dancing Blade. Although you could re-grab if you wanted. If they don't do anything then you can just fair right after. They can also jump, but that's slightly more risky so it's usually a guessing game between airdodge and no airdodge. This trap is very simple and very much in your favor. Even if you decide to do nothing it's easy to set up a d-tilt trap after this.



Ok now I will copy and paste all of this into my first post.

Now let's move on to Snake shall we?

GO!!!!!!

How about a

Shield breaker trap

When Shield breaker guarded ,spot dodged most of your opponent try to follow up with attack if you spaced your Shield Breaker(attacking with it for as far as you can)you can counter his attack with Marth UB
makes for some decent dmg and good knock back.

Snake.

Jugglez lolz.

Start the juggle trap with an up-throw or the up version of your dancing blade. Once this happens Snake's options are extremely limited. All he can really do is air dodge and maybe back air. As he starts to come down do fast falled up airs underneath him. You will probably draw out the air dodge, once this happens you have more options. You can do an up smash, up tilt, or grab him and up throw again. Snake is easily juggled and is a GREAT way to rack up damage vs him.

Snake=Shield ****. No matter how you think of it 99% of snakes Block to F-tilt,U-tilt, or jabs. Learn to abuse shieldbreaker going against snake and you will force them to always be on the move.

NESSBOUNDER said:

Edit: by the way...I think ROB has a better dtilt trap than Marth. His dtilt comes out faster and ends sooner, and it has just as much range and trips 50% of the time. ROB may not have dancing blade, but he does have downsmash.

Click to expand...

The thing is, if they roll away or jump backwards there's nothing ROB can do to follow up, even if he predicts the roll. However, if Marth predicts the roll he can follow up with dancing blade, and if he predicts a jump he can set up a juggle trap.

Sonic Wave said:

The thing is, if they roll away or jump backwards there's nothing ROB can do to follow up, even if he predicts the roll. However, if Marth predicts the roll he can follow up with dancing blade, and if he predicts a jump he can set up a juggle trap.

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ROB's dtilt ends sooner. If they roll away he can run up to them and grab/running attack or even shoot a laser or gyro. If they jump, his Fair is also similar to Marths in terms of speed and range, and he has his projectiles too.

Snake's traps include:
Grenade Placements
Tilt traps
HURR DURR HIS MINES WHICH ARE TRAPS.

His brickwalls are practically the same as his traps, just depends on how he uses them. Snake also has the utilt brickwall. I also would consider his mortar slide a brickwall.

His grenade placements can be quite annoying. If he has placed a grenade near him on the ground, he has a perimeter of defense that is hard to budge. He can stand there for a while and if you try to attack you can get blown up yourself, or he just moves away with room to tilt.

I mostly struggle against the mortar slide when it comes to Snake, it's hard to get through. Otherwise his traps are not fast, one just needs to keep attention of their surroundings (Smashville?).

Bleh.

The way I see it, if Marth can punish it, then it's not a good trap.

R.O.B d-tilts Marth's shield, he eats up b or gets grabbed.

Emblem Lord said:

The way I see it, if Marth can punish it, then it's not a good trap.

R.O.B d-tilts Marth's shield, he eats up b or gets grabbed.

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That's not true. You're forgetting that nobody else in the cast besides Wolf has a move with invincibility right off the first frames.

In fact, most traps work on anybody BUT Marth due to that confounding up B.

And I don't think you can grab ROB after that if he spaces his attack well enough. I don't know, I haven't checked.

NESSBOUNDER said:

That's not true. You're forgetting that nobody else in the cast besides Wolf has a move with invincibility right off the first frames.

Click to expand...

Samus say hi

hi hi hi hi hi

Steel2nd said:

Snake.

Jugglez lolz.

Start the juggle trap with an up-throw or the up version of your dancing blade. Once this happens Snake's options are extremely limited. All he can really do is air dodge and maybe back air. As he starts to come down do fast falled up airs underneath him. You will probably draw out the air dodge, once this happens you have more options. You can do an up smash, up tilt, or grab him and up throw again. Snake is easily juggled and is a GREAT way to rack up damage vs him.

Click to expand...

While it shouldn't be a huge concern, whenever I attempt to juggle Snake, I find them trying to drop remote mines on me and blow them up before they even hit the ground if I'm still there. If I'm not there...well it's hard to continue the juggle unless I move out of the way AND aerial approach from his side, but then I have to deal with his bair and fair since I'm no longer approaching directly below him. Any thoughts on that?

Any Snake who tries to drop a c4 on you is asking to get uair'd.

When you're approaching a snake to juggle you don't try to go for them at the TOP of your two jumps, that's dangerous. Dropping and detonating a C4 gives you more than enough time to hit them if they're within a jump or so's range.

alchfilosofer said:

Samus say hi

Click to expand...

Do you mean her Bomb? Are you sure it has invincibility?

I know that screw attack doesn't. It lost a lot of its priority since Melee and 64

Nice work here Emblem Lord, I have lurked here for a long time and ultimately joined to start posting here.

Yeah, if Snake drops the C4 it can impede you somewhat, but it's not a HUGE deal.

Just means you have to be more careful and be ready to shield, jump or dodge when you hear,"NOW!"

My friend also does the C4 thing and the C4 never actually hit me when he dropped it on the ground. You just have to really pay attention to Snake and your own movements.

I read this a little while ago, but I'm commenting now. The D-tilt trap works wonders, I knew of it before, but I didn't know all the specs or quite how well it really worked until reading this post. And it's really helping out my game. Most of the others are just done self consciously such as edgeguarding and juggling. Still, a great read. *Thumbs up*

The thing that works best on snakes when you are marth, is keeping snake in the air. His aerial game is not even close as to how good marths is. IF you can keep juggling him and keep him in the air its easy %.

You can also take great advantage over snake on platform levels, like battlefield doing the same thing, platforms just allow for good use of tilits.

EDIT: oops sorry didnt see feardragons post.

( hey EL, i been wanting to play you some matches. I dont got aim though, and the site wont allow me to make an account. Any other way to contact you besides swf?)

i was wondering Emblem Lord if you would be kind enough to play a few games with me sometime to see how I am right now?

bump due to the epicness.

GL Today :D

JunkInTheTrunk said:

GL Today :D

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Won 3 sets lost 2 sets, not bad for my first ^_^

none of your TRAPS CAN STOP WIFI IKE EMBLEM LORD




BAHAHAHAHAHA

En.Ee.Oh said:

none of your TRAPS CAN STOP WIFI IKE EMBLEM LORD




BAHAHAHAHAHA

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Nothing stops Wifi Ike lol, aaa, fsmash, aaa, win ^_^

But seriously very nice thread Emblem Lord.

Ok, this was long overdue for an update.


Dealing with Snakes Traps and Brickwalls.

Snakes walls are obvious. They are his explosives which he uses to control the field and the flow of the match. There are methods in which to deal with all of them. Nikita missile can be shielded. Grenades can be shielded or thrown back. You could also grab them and run up to Snake and shield or roll past him as the nade explodes. Mines can be detonated by rolling over them as well. C4 is the only one that you can't do anything about directly. You just have to be careful and keep your wits about you. Snake also has his mortar slide which you can shield or hit him out of. Usually you would just shield it and then try to chase him down to reset your spacing. There are alot of ways and variations in which Snake can use his nades in combination with his mortar slide and his other explosives. There are holes in every wall though so stay calm and look for that hole. Another wall that Snake's like to use is full double jump Nair and then when they land they will do U-tilt, dash grab or mortar slide. They can do anything really, but those are the most common options. Well you could just run in and counter the nair. You could also space yourself on the ground and F-smash Snake as he comes down.

Snake can ledge trap Marth of course, so to deal with that watch his spacing. He can also do some mean things like repeated U-smashes, or set mines and C4's on platforms and near the ledge to really limit you. If he is doing repeated U-smashes your response will change depending on the situation. If he is spaced for the ledge you can do normal get up then you try to attack or roll past him depending on where the mortar will fall. If it will fall behind him then attack. If it will fall in front then you should roll past him. If he was close to the edge and using U-smash then just do a ledge roll and that should take care of it. If he has a mine that is near the ledge then you should probably ledge jump or see if you can do ledge drop up b and hit the mine so you don't have to worry about it. There are other variations of ledge control Snake can do and there are ways around all of them. Once again it's just a matter of keeping your cool and playing smart.

Snake really doesn't have the tools to juggle trap Marth. His moveset doesn't really allow for it nor does he have the mobility for it. For the same reason Snake doesn't really have any attack traps either. Although he could throw out one f-tilt and then try to respond to your actions. He is a bit too slow for that and you could always just roll away.

Snake does have his d-throw trap though. When he lays you on the ground you have 4 options. Normal wake-up, wake-up attack, roll left or roll right. He can shield when he lays you on the ground and that will cover the options of normal wake-up and wake up attack. If you do either of those expect a shield grab or a tilt to the face. You have to roll right or left. So it's a 50/50 gamble. But once he has been conditioned to you rolling then you could take a risk and do a get up attack or normal wake-up and he probably won't expect it. This is a very good trap that can be hard to deal with so stay on your toes. And remember that if Snake gets a re-grab then he can restart the trap.


What works on Snake

Most of the usual stuff works on Snake and really well I might add. You can ledge trap him with relative ease. He is probably one of the easiest characters to do this too. He only has one good option from the ledge which is to ledge jump. If you know it's coming then he can't do much. Just space yourself outside of his ledge attack and he becomes really limited. Juggle traps work really well on Snake. He can try to use C4's, wave bounced C4's where he will drop a C4 and go in the other direction and he will try to use nades all to deter you from juggling him. But these things are minor hindrances and they really can't do much to stop you. You just need to pay attention. Especially when he drops a C4 since if he blows when you are near it you will be in a world of hurt.

The d-tilt trap still works, but is harder to set-up since Snake attacks fast and has comparable range to Marth so don't worry about it if you have less opportunities to use it. If you do manage to get it off then Snake is more or less at your mercy. He could only roll, but if you know that's his best option you can cover it easily. He can try other things of course like shield drop tilt, but that would take a bit of time and you could hit him before then.

Marth can't really wall Snake with aerials and tilts since both have virtually equal range and both characters attack fast. And he has his explosives so a good Snake will be walling you and not the other way around.

Snake for the most part is made of walls, but is very susceptible to traps since he lacks the tools to get out of them effectively.


Let's look at King Dedede next.

Post your thoughts people. And is there anything about Snake I need to add?

D3 vs Marth, my specialty matchup.

Getting inside D3 is the main issue, because he outspaces him. SHFairing safely is essential to wear on the shield, but be highly cautious of properly spacing, because they will shield grab.

What you want to do is get D3 on the ledge. Once he's on the ledge, SHFFFairs at RD spacing is good, to keep him from getting back on (your brickwall). If he lingers, Dtilt or Fsmash him off. You want to knock him off the stage, and from there, try your **** hardest to force him to use all 4 jumps.

D3 has like 0 options from the ledge if you space yourself at RD distance. Fsmash if he RD on, jump and Fair if he jumps, Dancing Blade if he ledgehops or stands. Be patient if he stalls on the edge. If you land a hit, follow it up. D3 is weak from the front in the air.

Once this occurs, edgeguard the UpB with Fairs, Bairs, and Fsmashes, without letting D3 hit the ground. Counter is risky, because it might not hit D3 off the stage. If done properly, he should not be able to recover.

In recap: Set up ledge trap. Use a Brickwall, or just stand there until D3 takes an action. Try to force it into edge-guarding, capture the stock. When he's on the Edge, brickwall with Fairs, and wait for an opening to hit. Or, you could just stand there, and wait for an action.

Also, if D3 is at the edge of the stage, Dancing Blade will easily will push him to the ledge if you use the Down finish, or, may outright shield poke. This initiates the Edge traps.

Of course, D3 vs Marth is deeper than just that, those are just the traps I try to set up every match.

Brickwalling against D3 while you're both on the map is pretty much impossible, because his ftilt outspaces Marth, and he can throw Waddles and Gordo.

"We as a community will discuss what each and every character can do to trap or wall Marth and what responses he has to get out of them. As we do this I will update this section."


So let's get this on the road shall we?