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Ness vs Zelda. Advantage or disadvantage

Smashbros_7

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Help me gather proof onto why Ness>Zelda.

the matchup thread is considering having them in neutral.

EDIT!

I the TC needs proof on what Zelda has on Ness.
Im thirsty for more blood, err flames and fights! COMMON!

I think Ness>Zelda.
60-40
(that should spur a war)

I just don't see what Zelda has over Ness.
 

Tyr_03

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Who cares what the matchup thread says? Pretty much all of them are based on very little information and a whole lot of opinion since the metagame is still developing and tournament experience is still very limited because of how short a time the game has been out.

Yes, Ness can stop Din's Fire. Yes, I think he has the advantage in this matchup. No, I couldn't possibly care less if other people think it's a neutral matchup.
 

Uffe

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I might have something up my sleeve. This depends on how Zelda performs against your Ness...assuming you play as Ness because you're in the parts asking about Zelda vs Ness. Here are some options for Ness vs Zelda:

If Zelda uses Nayru's Love when you attack hand-to-hand then do this. Use your fair on the ground. Don't fully approach her but keep yourself at a good distance. The electricity that flows from Ness' hands strike three times when you're using your fair on the ground. In this case you might only be able to get her hit once with that flow. Let the second to third flow of electricity fly into her because she cannot reflect that. Normally this is only one way to approach Zelda if all she is going to do is use Nayru's Love. If she's going to block instead, just grab her.

Again with Nayru's Love, if you're approaching her, try to do shield running I think it's called. Ness' isn't the best at doing this like some characters. You'll run at her and then shield in front of her. Don't do this often as she might just end up grabbing you instead of using Nayru's Love. But if you're lucky you might pull off a perfect shielding and grab her. When she uses Nayru's Love, don't let go of your shield right away, though. People get angry and ask why they got hit when their shield was up. No, your shielding doesn't stop an attack head on, it only protects you.

Try to have Zelda leave herself open. If you're going to use your PK Thunder on her, throw in some mind games. She'll either block, spot dodge or use Nayru's Love. With the other two can only last so long. So if you do some mind games, turn the PKT back around or something to throw her off, then you can either PKT her or PKT2 into her.

PK Fire is useful. But it's more useful if you use it when jumping. Actually I shouldn't say that when it comes to Zelda... You might want to go to Training Mode and see if Ness' PK Fire bounces back up when you use your PK Jump. If it doesn't, awesome! Don't PK Jump into your enemy if you know he or she is going to block it or counter it. Instead keep yourself at a safe distance.

In my mind Zelda is pretty much about being on the defensive side. I have two friends who play her. One mains her and the other plays the roster. I literally have to think of how I'm going to defeat Zelda when I play as Ness. When it's Ike, it's easy killing because Ike can distance himself with his big sword. Ness on the other hand isn't lengthy. For Ness, Zelda is a problem. When it's Shiek, the fight should end quicker because you now have so much more options to use.

EDIT: Oh. You didn't need help? >_<
 

-GourrY-

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Reflectors only change the horizontal direction of a move, not the vertical.. so PK Fire won't be reflected back on you if you PK Jump.

Din Fire is a major part of her game, and it heals a lot of damage if you use pk magnet... It should only connect if she uses it while you're standing in front of her.

I would say it is an easy matchup, you just have to be very careful when directly above her and SH lightning kicks
 

_clinton

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I think Ness has the advantage over Zelda as well...but overall a good Zelda is still hard to deal with
 

Uffe

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Reflectors only change the horizontal direction of a move, not the vertical.. so PK Fire won't be reflected back on you if you PK Jump.

Din Fire is a major part of her game, and it heals a lot of damage if you use pk magnet... It should only connect if she uses it while you're standing in front of her.

I would say it is an easy matchup, you just have to be very careful when directly above her and SH lightning kicks
That's another thing. Usually Zelda players will use Din's Fire on you if you're off the stage and coming back. With Ness [and Lucas as well] you can use your PSI Magnet to absorb for health. But watch out. The Zelda players I've come across will either use her uair or bair. Or is it her fair? Anyway just watchout for the thunder kick. That thing is lethal!
 

FuPoo

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The Zelda players I've come across will either use her uair or bair. Or is it her fair? Anyway just watchout for the thunder kick. That thing is lethal!
it goes both ways. forward and backwards. so either way, look out
 

-GourrY-

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That's another thing. Usually Zelda players will use Din's Fire on you if you're off the stage and coming back. With Ness [and Lucas as well] you can use your PSI Magnet to absorb for health. But watch out. The Zelda players I've come across will either use her uair or bair. Or is it her fair? Anyway just watchout for the thunder kick. That thing is lethal!
At least Ness' magnet stalls him in the air for a moment, so you don't lose much vertical recovery. And yeah... her Fair, Bair (both are lightning kicks!) and Uair are lethal :(
Maybe airdodging when near the edge while recovering is safer than magneting. I can't say much because I don't have any Zelda main friends.
 

Brinzy

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I wish people would form some actual arguments instead of just saying "Ness >>> Zelda, period." What is it with people and not wanting to prove their arguments?

Also, that thread said Zelda is Ness's easiest match-up? What the heck?
 

Ztarfish

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Zelda isn't that great against Ness, I play both, I also play a lot of Zelda's. Jesus Christ. I don't even freakin heal that much and it's still not that hard.

The fact that Ness easily DI's out of Usmash and Fsmash kills 2 possible kill moves, as well as an incredible damage builder, Din's fire is compromised unless you catch the Ness way off guard, and if the Ness is good (read: not me) they won't be off guard too often. In addition he'll dance circles in the air around you, and if you dare ever use Farore's Wind within jumping distance of the Ness they'll uair, bair, dair, whatever air to kill your ***.

Basically Ness has a lot going for him, whereas Zelda has very little.
 

Brinzy

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On the flipside, Zelda outranges and outprioritizes Ness on the ground. One could argue that Ness should just SH his aerials, but Zelda can still get around that. Also, Zelda has those god forsaken "protect me" attacks: Nayru's Love and Dsmash. I've eaten more Dsmashes from Zelda than anything else... or maybe it was Nayru's Love. Both moves cause trouble for Ness.

It also doesn't help that she can reflect PK Fire after only taking around 6%, which will stop Ness from getting a grab or smash in on her. A careful Zelda can also prevent more PK Thunder juggling than most characters. The Zeldas I play use a variety of tactics to get around it and punish for it, namely Zelda's three special attacks. It also doesn't help that her dair, while it needs a sweetspot to do much, still has stupidly high priority. Unless I've been playing this game wrong, nearly every single time I tried to uair her, Zelda's dair got in over me, and believe me, I tried a lot of uairs on her. Her nair also has incredible priority; I believe it has invincible start-up.

Of course, a lot of what is said about Ness is true... but I dunno if the match will stay as advantage for Ness for much longer.
 

Uffe

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At least Ness' magnet stalls him in the air for a moment, so you don't lose much vertical recovery. And yeah... her Fair, Bair (both are lightning kicks!) and Uair are lethal :(
Maybe airdodging when near the edge while recovering is safer than magneting. I can't say much because I don't have any Zelda main friends.
Well PSIM stalling in the air is a great way for recovering, but close enough and you're just asking for it. Also I'm not sure what you mean by airdodging near the edge, but I'm going to point it out anyway. You never want to airdodge if you're going to grab the ledge. Maybe I suck, but every time I had done that I wouldn't grab the ledge. If you're saying as you return to land on the ground, then yeah, you definately want to airdodge away from her lightning kick.

It doesn't mean that attack is going to instantly kill you, but it's still something you want to avoid. And Successor of Raphael, you can uair her dair. Ness' big head > Zelda's tiny glass slippers.
 

Brinzy

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I guess I was getting WiFi'd, because that crap got me time and time again.
 

Uffe

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At least Ness' magnet stalls him in the air for a moment, so you don't lose much vertical recovery. And yeah... her Fair, Bair (both are lightning kicks!) and Uair are lethal :(
Maybe airdodging when near the edge while recovering is safer than magneting. I can't say much because I don't have any Zelda main friends.
Well it pretty much gives the advantage to who used their attack first. Like I'll use Ness' dair right away in order for it to hit because it lags. And were you playing on WiFi with lag? ><
 

thesage

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Um.... Zelda doesn't have a good projectile game even without psi magnet....

DI out of Nair, U-smash, F-smash, there go three of her best moves. Space well and you don't get hit by fair/bair. Uair is still awkward to hit with and honestly it's even harder to hit with than in melee due to new physics. Her dair only sweetspots in the air.

Her tilts are slow and not that useful really. What else does she have?

If those are links to that horribly inaccurate matchup chart that's based off of noobs posting then no. I'm not even taking my time to discuss that.

Jesus, even the Zelda boards say it's a really bad matchup last time I checked.
 

GimmeAnFSharp

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Actually, the other factor that comes to mind: Do they use Sheik? :p It's not like they can't switch between the two.
 

Ztarfish

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Her tilts actually are useful. Every single one of them. So you're wrong there. Especially beware of Utilt and Dtilt.

And the Zelda boards actually are coming to the conclusion that Zelda is good against everyone ever -_-

I do think that Ness is good against Zelda though, for reasons I stated earlier.
 

PKSkyler

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Uhhh Id say that Ness has the advantage here, sure she can reflect but Ness can eat her PK -whoops I mean Din`s Fire and heal so.... yeah ness wins.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Ness's advantages:

Ness's fair allows him to approach without getting Usmashed much easier than a lot of characters.

Ness can DI out of Usmash often enough that it's worth mentioning.

Ness's fair protects him against Zelda kicks fairly well.

Ness's air game is better than zelda's... even if he doesn't get as many chances to pull it out as he'd like.

Zelda's light.

Ness isn't the easiest bugger to approach, and zelda will be approaching occasionally.

Ness CAN absorb Din's... even though that's not a huge consideration since Zelda will just do without it or set up for it so that ness can't heal. But it still stops her from getting in free damage when he's recovering high.

What Zelda has going for her:

well Raph said it best while replying to the OP when he came preaching that ness owns Zelda in the matchup thread
I did. [admit the matchup was not ness's advantage]

What worked on paper didn't work in the match. I didn't realize how pathetic Ness's ground game is compared to Zelda's. I mean, it wasn't impossible to get ground hits in, but I could only get a good 5-15% (not counting the bat smash) on Zelda at any one encounter on the ground. Most characters don't have a skill like Nayru's Love, and most don't have a Dsmash that comes out lightning quick. It also doesn't help that approaching from the air opens Zelda up to the option of an Usmash. Of course, on the flipside, Ness can combo Zelda in the air, or at the very least, he can get her in the air and pester with PK Thunder (and in my experience, it's not always reflected).

I'm beginning to think the match is even. PSI Magnet is a minor, minor advantage, if it is one at all. You only get one or two Din's in on an opponent in a match, and that's usually if you're far away - PSI magnet up close gets you punished with Zelda, as it would with any character. Zelda's basically a fortress to Ness with her defenses, but once he gets past her defenses, he can rack up damage quite fast with his aerials. I personally found the match-up to be a pain with Ness.

Ness does not shut down that approach [short hopped Din's fire]. He has to dodge it just like everyone else or he'll 1) get hit by the fire, or 2) use the PSI magnet (which won't be coming out in time anyway unless you KNOW it's coming) and get punished by any of her follow-up attacks.

Being extremely light doesn't really matter much when it comes to a b-throw. Zelda is easily one of the most difficult characters to grab in the game because she is designed to keep you away from her when you get too close. It doesn't kill at some abnormally low % unless you're near the edge or if Zelda DIs it. Being light and "dying easily" barely accounts for anything. That's like saying Ganon's hard to kill for Ness but Squirtle is easy because of weight alone.

And to avoid quoting all of the other Ness vs. Zelda posts... STH might be one of the very few arguing for Zelda, but it counts for something, especially when most people use ad hominems and theoretical logic to back up their claims that they obviously didn't get from experience. Also, to whoever mentioned being professional, that's a stupid thought. You don't have to be a pro to find strengths and weaknesses in match-ups. You're not born a pro. You have to start from somewhere, and finding strengths and weaknesses is part of bettering your own game plan.




Zelda has bad recovery? LOL

First off, Ness isn't gonna get a dair past that uair. Second, good luck at getting a dair off of someone who can warp in several directions at any given point in time. Don't forget to mention that Zelda has attacks that outrange the living hell out of Ness's ground game, and also don't forget that her nair also has good priority, her lightning kicks kill at very, very low %s, and nothing of Ness's is getting past that uair.

Also, once again, you're kidding yourself if you honestly believe PSI magnet kills off Din's Fire, at all. At the most, it'll cut down her pressuring game, but it won't nullify it.
 

Earthbound360

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FYI, PSIM is not punishable when you lag cancel it. That only takes away from Zelda's dins fire even more. A lot of that says PSIM is useless in a more generous wording.
 

_clinton

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"Ness does not shut down that approach [short hopped Din's fire]. He has to dodge it just like everyone else or he'll 1) get hit by the fire, or 2) use the PSI magnet (which won't be coming out in time anyway unless you KNOW it's coming) and get punished by any of her follow-up attacks."

Well EB360 already brought up lag canceling PSIM...so I won't bring it up again...

"First off, Ness isn't gonna get a dair past that uair. Second, good luck at getting a dair off of someone who can warp in several directions at any given point in time. Don't forget to mention that Zelda has attacks that outrange the living hell out of Ness's ground game, and also don't forget that her nair also has good priority, her lightning kicks kill at very, very low %s, and nothing of Ness's is getting past that uair."

Um...yeah...Ness doesn't have to go out to edge guard Zelda...in fact you can gimp her by just using PK Thunder...just spin it on the ledge...the tail should prevent her from grabbing the edge...and thus forcing her to land...Ness controls her recovery ok ^_^

So...how about we talk about Ness' defense game now?

How about His down tilt? It is like Zelda's...
 

Earthbound360

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But faster and more annoying

Defense? What? Firebound and Firedash?
Yes, reflecting this is impossible and very defensive. So useful on defense.

A fair while Diing backwards prety much takes care of a lot of what Zelda can dish out. And aerial rises. Yes, hard to hit Ness when he hits you then jumps away.
 

Uffe

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Ness' d-tilt is similar to Zelda's, but can it KO an opponent at high percent? Zelda's d-tilt on Mario can kill him at 385%. So is Ness' d-tilt only for the sole purpose of tripping or can it kill as well?
 

Earthbound360

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It can gimp since its knockback is so meager and goes over the ledge.
But no, it wont kill even at 999% But if you trip with it then stop, it can kill.

It doesnt really matter. Neither of their dtilts are used for killing.
 

SwastikaPyle

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It sounds easy in text but it's much harder in the match. I'm getting a kick out of this thread. You guys should be listening to Raphael more.

It's much more difficult to just DI out of every smash attack then you think.
 

Gaussis

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Perhaps it may not be simple to DI all of her attacks, but if Ness DIs out of Zelda's attack even once and punishes hard, Zelda may not want to use that attack as often, opening a hole in her defense game. True that in practice, the match-up is much harder, but Ness still has a better opportunity because of his smaller size.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Perhaps it may not be simple to DI all of her attacks, but if Ness DIs out of Zelda's attack even once and punishes hard, Zelda may not want to use that attack as often, opening a hole in her defense game. True that in practice, the match-up is much harder, but Ness still has a better opportunity because of his smaller size.
well...
-He's not going to DI every time... so you can't just say that he renders the moves useless
-If he doesn't DI early enough, Zelda can still pull out a Dsmash or Nayru's Love before ness can punish her.
 

Earthbound360

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I still have zero doubt that Ness does well on Zelda, and I've played good Zeldas. Most people just settle for the neutral matchup against Ness for like everyone (it's noticable, Kirby players, Icy players, Zelda players, Link players, etc.) because they havent faced many, and the ones they have arent that amazing. Ness is underused.

Ness definately has the advantage here.
 

Gaussis

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If Ness DIs out of Upsmash, he will have enough time and will be close enough to set a trip to bat. And DIing out of Upsmash is much easier than Fsmash I believe. But I would like to hear what would Zelda do if Ness keeps his distance instead of rushing.
 

Ztarfish

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Well, for whatever reason, there seems to be a very specific window in which shorties (and Marth for some reason) can get out of Zelda's Usmash. Meaning there's no such thing as not DIing early enough. Also yeah, it leaves ample time for a dtilt trip to fsmash.

You can even see this in characters that can't DI out of Usmash. The characters start to sink down, and then get pulled back up. Except Ness doesn't get pulled back up.
 

Masky

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Why are you guys getting worked over so much about this matchup? Ness and Zelda are both underused... I've only seen one single Zelda mainer at one tournament and he wasn't amazing imo and I haven't seen any Ness players at a tournament who impressed me. Either my area is just weird for having no Zeldas or this matchup discussion has gone way to far. There are more pressing concerns... cough snake, metaknight, dedede, wario, etc. Ness and Zelda mainers should be friends not enemies :)
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I'm friends with Raph... but that's because his head isn't up his arse. I mean, he thought the matchup was ness's to lose, and then he played me and I convinced him otherwise.. He was willing to compramise... as was I... because he convinced me Lucas still had an advatge and that Ness was even with zelda.
 

Gaussis

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I'm willing to compromise, but I fail to understand what Zelda can do against Ness if Ness keeps his distance. I mean I am willing to believe that the matchup is neutral, but I don't see it yet.

Maybe I shouldn't push this any more than what it is though. Like Masky said, there are worse matchups than this.
 
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