If they add the update/patch people want...what Sheik changes do you want to see???

Brawl has been, although many Melee fans would deny this, very successful, its attracted a large player base and has proven to have a bit slower, but more balanced competitive scene, but many people like to talk about adding a patch, to fix glitches, to change ruined aspects, to fix some clear programming flaws(Press down B, you'll see what I mean) and during spanish class a while back we decided to have a 25 person rant about things we'd like to see in a brawl upgrade, and after my 100th idea to upgrade Sheik and Zelda, people were at my throat...lol, where as most people said "ADD MORE CHARACTERS!!!" I was just saying "Make mine top tier..." lol

Just curious to see what other people wanted to see as well, because for those of us who main this mistress of death we all have our little...issues.

VANISH
Yes, for those of you who read the Zelda boards, if feel both character's up Bs could be improved, similarly to my feelings with Zelda, when sizing up to Pit, Rob, Sonic and Snake, our recovery is crap, I mean, it covers the distance, but it aint AMAZING, hell, compared to ZELDA's its crap, the chain helps us hold on but mostly we like our Vanishes, as short as they may be.
One aspect a friend pointed out to me is that, as great as Vanish is, when ever we use it we have a half second-second of wind up, thats worse on the ground than in the air, BUT, oddly enough it does kind of look like a dodging technique, air dodge or side step, it would be a bit odd but what about the idea of giving Sheik invinsability frames while she's prepping for the explosion, this does add an interesting aspect because then if we're on the ground and someone goes to Dash attack or grab us, they eat a nice 15% explosion, which could kill at later percentages. As cheap as this sounds a while ago someone told me "Sheik does not approch, she punishes bad approches", well, that would be pretty good punishment right there...then say, Mario or Jiggly puff would need to think twice about following us into the air.
Also, isn't there an explosion where Sheik re-appears? That should have its own, equally powerful hit box(15% and the killer knockback)

CHAIN
My spanish class has a ZSS mainer and he hated the idea of upgrading our chain but, lets be honest, we need it...as it stands now, our chain is laggy, punishable and really not worth using due to poor attack methods, now its just a recovery that gets outshined by vanish usually...
Personally I think the whip hits need to have some more stun, but drive the target outword to the tip(Auto sweet spot, like ZSS's side B except this one stays out), also there should be some A button manuver with it imo, maybe a quick snap of the whip in what ever direction your analoge is pointed, with higher knockback? Also, it'd be nice if the whip had a bit more volocity to its movements, you need to really watch how you swing it to control it, then the hits are too slow, you should probably be able to use A as well, to get fully extended, fast, power swings and the control stick to do those horrid ones with little to no effect...
Also an aerial alteration would be smart, considering noone would use it as an aerial attack, only to recover, the ZSS main was mad when I suggested this but give us maybe a little whip slash like ZSS's neutral when we take out the chain then either hold the button to keep it out or it'll automatically retract.(Not saying it has to be like ZSS's, just some attack)

NEEDLES
Our old stunning effect would be nice... There should really be an auto charge option in the menu for specials, it'd be nice to not have to double tap B to get off a single needle in a pinch, same with Samus' charge shot...

TRANSFORM
This is just rediculious, pre load Zelda so the transformation is near instant, Sheik lost her AMAZING kill moves so now she's just...okay...Zelda got better in hopes that they would become one play style... Why not let use use them the way they were ment to be used?

DAir
I'm pretty sure that Sheik doesn't get the shockwave ZSS does and its been bothering me for a while that ZSS, Dedede, TL and Kirby all have 2 hits on their falling skills and recover rather well(D3 and ZSS aspecially), does she really need all that lag at the end and how does she NOT merit the shockwave? IIRC Sheik and Zelda are heavier than ZSS. Also it'd be nice if you could jump cancel the fall...like say you use it over a pit...cause you're used to Melee where she didn't fall...

UAir
Ya know, as odd as this sounds I always forgot about the classic Sheik slap and killed by juggling off the top with the UAir, now move decay prevents that but thats no excuse to weaken the move as much as they seem to have! It'd be nice if the UAir had some real knock back, I mean, I know asking for a replica of Fox's UAir's knock back is a bit much but maybe something a bit more effective than Jiggly's UAir that is designed for her to use one of six jumps to follow the enemy up...we don't have six jumps to play with!

FSmash
Not really a necessity but, this move has been DI'd out of and punished since Melee, make sure the 1st kick sets them up for the second, no knockback above or around you, just into the next freakin kick!

Dash A
Take off the lag...its pointless, its a knock up move, we should follow it up like any other combo mechanic, not sit there and wait for her to do what? Move her hands?!?

Throws
The upwords DI on the forword and back throws is useful sometimes but usually just akword...although its a nice set up she has the DTilt, FTilt, Dash, UThrow, DThrow, USmash and Vanish to help with that, she doesn't need the set up, we only have FSmash & DSmash to knock them forwords on the ground, then NAir and BAir are her kills and FAir...is a nice move off stage...but otherwise, kinda lame...we need a non-kill method of knocking people away...

It was refreshing to see one thread about changing sheik but making another border lines spam.

Although your topic is different and even though Sakurai said himself that there will be no update I'll play along and respond accordingly.

Vanish.

I agree some knock back upon the end would be very nice but about sheik not approach that's not true. It's true Sheik does a great job punishing bad approaches but she is still able to go on the offensive at a whim. She might not be able to do it as well as a G&W or a Meta knight but she is very capable.

Needles

The old stun would be really nice but what I'm really looking for is less cool down time on aerial needles. Honestly who did the pass go on that, was it the guy who invited tripping?

Transform

I agree completely

Dair

I agree completely, although unlike Zamus Sheik Dair ends fairly soon so it can be used to recover but what would really make me happy if they made it so that it could spike. Even if it was a weak spike that alone would make me very pleased....That or they could just remove the fast fall or the large amounts of lag. Basically making it better in any way would make me happy as this move just sucks.

Uair

Sure why not increase the knock back I don't think anyone would complain

Fsmash

The fsmash already does that. I made a thread detailing about that a while ago, it would be nice though if they made it guaranteed no matter where you hit them though.

Throwing

Giving sheik a throw that could kill would make her broken... I agree completely =D

COM7 said:

VANISH
Yes, for those of you who read the Zelda boards, if feel both character's up Bs could be improved, similarly to my feelings with Zelda, when sizing up to Pit, Rob, Sonic and Snake, our recovery is crap, I mean, it covers the distance, but it aint AMAZING, hell, compared to ZELDA's its crap, the chain helps us hold on but mostly we like our Vanishes, as short as they may be.
One aspect a friend pointed out to me is that, as great as Vanish is, when ever we use it we have a half second-second of wind up, thats worse on the ground than in the air, BUT, oddly enough it does kind of look like a dodging technique, air dodge or side step, it would be a bit odd but what about the idea of giving Sheik invinsability frames while she's prepping for the explosion, this does add an interesting aspect because then if we're on the ground and someone goes to Dash attack or grab us, they eat a nice 15% explosion, which could kill at later percentages. As cheap as this sounds a while ago someone told me "Sheik does not approch, she punishes bad approches", well, that would be pretty good punishment right there...then say, Mario or Jiggly puff would need to think twice about following us into the air.
Also, isn't there an explosion where Sheik re-appears? That should have its own, equally powerful hit box(15% and the killer knockback)

Click to expand...

1) Recovery properties
a) Begging for a better recovery would just be a bonus, not a necessity. Theres no problem with her recovery atm, she's already one of the hardest to edgeguard due to invincibility frames and tether options.

2) Invincibility
a) It does have invincibility frames and it can be used the way you described.
b) Having invincibility frames from the moment you push it would be wayyyy op.
c) Sheik has alright approaches

3) Reappearance
a) I agree i would love this. Knock away ledge hoggers, vanish minds games made even better. This would be awesome

CHAIN
My spanish class has a ZSS mainer and he hated the idea of upgrading our chain but, lets be honest, we need it...as it stands now, our chain is laggy, punishable and really not worth using due to poor attack methods, now its just a recovery that gets outshined by vanish usually...
Personally I think the whip hits need to have some more stun, but drive the target outword to the tip(Auto sweet spot, like ZSS's side B except this one stays out), also there should be some A button manuver with it imo, maybe a quick snap of the whip in what ever direction your analoge is pointed, with higher knockback? Also, it'd be nice if the whip had a bit more volocity to its movements, you need to really watch how you swing it to control it, then the hits are too slow, you should probably be able to use A as well, to get fully extended, fast, power swings and the control stick to do those horrid ones with little to no effect...
Also an aerial alteration would be smart, considering noone would use it as an aerial attack, only to recover, the ZSS main was mad when I suggested this but give us maybe a little whip slash like ZSS's neutral when we take out the chain then either hold the button to keep it out or it'll automatically retract.(Not saying it has to be like ZSS's, just some attack)

Click to expand...

I agree the chain needs like... reduced startup OR ending lag... the A snap idea is pretty good also. In the air i think it should be like Zair or something...
Its not useless now (as people are discovering) but i still think it should be much better.

NEEDLES
Our old stunning effect would be nice... There should really be an auto charge option in the menu for specials, it'd be nice to not have to double tap B to get off a single needle in a pinch, same with Samus' charge shot...

Click to expand...

Double tapping b isn't a big deal.
Melee needles were better, but meh needles still own.

TRANSFORM
This is just rediculious, pre load Zelda so the transformation is near instant, Sheik lost her AMAZING kill moves so now she's just...okay...Zelda got better in hopes that they would become one play style... Why not let use use them the way they were ment to be used?

Click to expand...

Near instant would be op. A little shorter maybe, but the fact that you have to knock them away before transforming is a necessary balance for refreshing all your moves and giving you fantastic killing options.

DAir
I'm pretty sure that Sheik doesn't get the shockwave ZSS does and its been bothering me for a while that ZSS, Dedede, TL and Kirby all have 2 hits on their falling skills and recover rather well(D3 and ZSS aspecially), does she really need all that lag at the end and how does she NOT merit the shockwave? IIRC Sheik and Zelda are heavier than ZSS. Also it'd be nice if you could jump cancel the fall...like say you use it over a pit...cause you're used to Melee where she didn't fall...

Click to expand...

Yes... change Dair plz

UAir
Ya know, as odd as this sounds I always forgot about the classic Sheik slap and killed by juggling off the top with the UAir, now move decay prevents that but thats no excuse to weaken the move as much as they seem to have! It'd be nice if the UAir had some real knock back, I mean, I know asking for a replica of Fox's UAir's knock back is a bit much but maybe something a bit more effective than Jiggly's UAir that is designed for her to use one of six jumps to follow the enemy up...we don't have six jumps to play with!

Click to expand...

I think its fine. Just don't decay it and it can kill at 120%
If you do decay it its a nice combo move.

FSmash
Not really a necessity but, this move has been DI'd out of and punished since Melee, make sure the 1st kick sets them up for the second, no knockback above or around you, just into the next freakin kick!

Click to expand...

Would be a fantastic fix but if you do it right its inescapable (see tristan's thread)

Dash A
Take off the lag...its pointless, its a knock up move, we should follow it up like any other combo mechanic, not sit there and wait for her to do what? Move her hands?!?

Click to expand...

No, lag makes it so you can't spam it as an approach and you can still combo with it, you just combo the way brawl combos. They worked hard to remove true combos in brawl, don't ruin it.

Throws
The upwords DI on the forword and back throws is useful sometimes but usually just akword...although its a nice set up she has the DTilt, FTilt, Dash, UThrow, DThrow, USmash and Vanish to help with that, she doesn't need the set up, we only have FSmash & DSmash to knock them forwords on the ground, then NAir and BAir are her kills and FAir...is a nice move off stage...but otherwise, kinda lame...we need a non-kill method of knocking people away...

Click to expand...

Throws are fine.
Asking for a chain throw is too much
Asking for kill throws is too much

Throws right now can semi combo or knock people away





Overall i think sheik is pretty good atm. Change chain and Dair a little to make them more useful and i would be happy =D

The Chain move itself is fine and doesn't really need any of the above. The inability for it to clash with other attacks (thus rendering it unable to cancel out projectiles) is actually both a blessing and a burden.

My only problem is the Fsmash, which really should not require such precise spacing to actually get the second hit in. It's perfectly punishable if you don't/

Tristan_win said:

It was refreshing to see one thread about changing sheik but making another border lines spam.

Although your topic is different and even though Sakurai said himself that there will be no update I'll play along and respond accordingly.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I was just trying to get both views on my main and just posted a near identical thread on the Zelda board and simply charged into the Sheik ones to do the same, I'm really embarassed now...sorry...
And I never said when we get the patch, I said the hypothetical IF, as in; in the land of hopes and dreams with unicorns and lepricons where every rainbow has a pot of gold at the end, this would happen.
...or if an angry mob forces Sakurai into updating, then he could chuck this stuff in(you're not in my spanish class, some people went KILLER on the idea of how bad Samus got nerfed and how Krystal deserves a spot, change up PK Starstorm, Trilaforce Strike(or w/e the Links' FS is) and the Landmasters since Mario and Luigi got different FSs, one kid wanted to nerf Zelda back to her Melee form, ditch Marth for Roy and Ike for Lynn and other psychotic aspect of this game...)

Tristan_win said:

Throwing

Giving sheik a throw that could kill would make her broken... I agree completely =D

Click to expand...

Does it even LOOK like her throws should have killing ability? Not really...I ment give us a move that knocks forwords/back that doesn't kill or launch unreasonable distances...

Squidster said:

1) Recovery properties
a) Begging for a better recovery would just be a bonus, not a necessity. Theres no problem with her recovery atm, she's already one of the hardest to edgeguard due to invincibility frames and tether options.

2) Invincibility
a) It does have invincibility frames and it can be used the way you described.
b) Having invincibility frames from the moment you push it would be wayyyy op.
c) Sheik has alright approaches

3) Reappearance
a) I agree i would love this. Knock away ledge hoggers, vanish minds games made even better. This would be awesome


I agree the chain needs like... reduced startup OR ending lag... the A snap idea is pretty good also. In the air i think it should be like Zair or something...
Its not useless now (as people are discovering) but i still think it should be much better.

Click to expand...

I'm not begging for a better recovery...I'm begging for a better kill lol, that rant was in cause I was orginally going to say; remove the free fall afterwords so we can use everything BUT another Up B, (get the pattern; You can cancel Pit's, Snake's and Sonic's you can move after, ROB's is...godly...) but then realized that out of Vanish...that'd be a bit odd, considering the wind up and that you wouldn't use it to move around like with Farore's...

Just realized that invinciblilty is pointless in the air cause you aren't standing still so I agree on that. The invincablility should at least be implamented on the ground, think Wolf's reflector but with a bigger announcement of the move and a kill rather than a little knockback...think of say Toad or Counter but you have to stand still...right next to the now un-hittable Sheik to get countered...only an idiot would get hit unless you use it as a spot dodge and then still I can see some moves clank canceling against the explosion...the first one that is...(Vanish at the ground...problem solved lol)

I know I was going somewhere with the 'this is crap' rant but I forgot where...lol. I know I said using Farore's should be able to warp you through an non-pass through platform as long as you appear outside the surface but with Vanish...um...I guess you could get through Lylat, Corneria or FD's edges, which would be nice cause it IS easy to edge guard Sheik cominb back up by grabbing the ledge so she misses by JUST so much...

And yeah, the chain is usable but we really deserve something that doesn't get laughed at by Din's...or Nayru's...or any move that exists between the two, it'd be nice to have all useful moves...

Squidster said:

Near instant would be op. A little shorter maybe, but the fact that you have to knock them away before transforming is a necessary balance for refreshing all your moves and giving you fantastic killing options.



Yes... change Dair plz



I think its fine. Just don't decay it and it can kill at 120%
If you do decay it its a nice combo move.



Would be a fantastic fix but if you do it right its inescapable (see tristan's thread)



No, lag makes it so you can't spam it as an approach and you can still combo with it, you just combo the way brawl combos. They worked hard to remove true combos in brawl, don't ruin it.



Throws are fine.
Asking for a chain throw is too much
Asking for kill throws is too much

Throws right now can semi combo or knock people away





Overall i think sheik is pretty good atm. Change chain and Dair a little to make them more useful and i would be happy =D

Click to expand...

How would trading speed for power with Melee esque lag be overpowered, take away the invincibility and we have a balanced character that can be canceled mid transformation...we should just get the nice little ring effects around the arms, the monocrome body silloette then bing! There's Zelda, the power house, make the kill and then press down B again, you're playing Z/S? Hit them during the transform like last time...Honestly, the only differance would be the graphics and people WOULD ACTUALLY USE IT NOW lol

Everyone hates the dropping DAir-s...except Toon Link or G&W mains...but they can keep their crap, I don't want an under powered Bowser bomb on my Sheik!

And if you can kill with the UAir then I'm sorry, I haven't actually physically played the game in 3 days...work sucks lol...

And Tristian's guide helps, he has found a way to force it to hit twice but we're not using lightning kicks here...its not to that degree of power so we shouldn't need that degree of thought to be put into it...

With the dash, yeah, they took away our faster combo system but we shouldn't stand there stupidly after our dash attack...I mean, we have the FTilt to show that brawl aint all one hits... Zelda can use her dash without fear cause it has the amazing knock back, Sheik needs some way to counter balance that...besides, you'd follow this up with the BAir then they're either out of your range to follow up TOO fast or you didn't sweetspot it so you're screwed...

And like I said, I JUST WANT A THROW TO INNATE A GROUND BATTLE WITH RATHER THAN HAVING MARTH, JIGGLYPUFF OR ZELDA LAUNCH INTO THE SKY!!! THAT AINT GOOD FOR POOR SHEIK!!! lol ya catch my drift? And getting the chain throw back(Or the Sheik slap) is WAY too much to ask for anyways

How about replacing Dthrow with snakes... that would awesome

Tech chase -> tilt lock!

I still think the sheik / zelda balance is fine right now. If its too fast you could do something like Dsmash -> switch switch -> back to sheik with fully recharged moves.
Having recharged moves after the kill is good enough and being able to switch for the kill is good enough. Switching as soona s your opponent is far away to dins spam is too much

all I would ever want to see changed are her chain and Dair, although I make use of them at times, it isn't helpful enough. Everything else I'm ok with, I never have problems with my Fsmashes because I space myself correctly, and I can still make her Fair seem like Melee's Fair.

it sucks that they probably wont update the game. if they ever did though i disagree mostly with what you say =p

i mean shiek is already powerful enough. the fact that in tournments you have two characters in one is pretty powerful in itself. ok i pick shiek. oh your picking ike? ok ill transform as soon as the battle starts and kick your *** with din.

shes the only character that can do this. i mean sure pokemon trainer can too but they suffer from fatigue and dying with one and your stuck either playing as another or wasting your invinsibility to switch pokemon.

her recovery is somewhat crap compared to other people but shes two freaking characters lol.

if they DID update the game i would like to see them fix the game engine exploits that professional players find out how to do then everyone studies religiously in order to get it down perfectly.

like falcos chain throw. i wont ever learn to play falco because of it.

when i win i want to feel good and i want it to feel fair i want to be able to explain what i did and how to do it and prove that it was more outplaying the person then this awesome gameplay exploit.

hey heres an idea how about an update where they do this stuff you want but REMOVE the ability to transform into zelda. that way all you shiek mainers who shun zelda would be happy.

When i win... i wanna win money....

Have you ever been to a tourney?

yeah ive been to a few tournments nothing major just college stuff with possibly 40 people?

im not really interested in the professional scene. i would main pit and just run and spam crap or falco and just exploit his chain throw. i want to feel good when i win and if that means never getting to the professional level by getting down things i believe are "cheap" so be it.

for me some battles are easier for me as shiek or zelda. sometimes even the people i play against seem to be weaker against one or the other. or once they get wise to the tricks of one i can pull the tricks of the other while having seen and remembering"their strategy/tricks.

its a huge advantage i think against players who dont have a lot of experience with someone who plays shiek/zelda.

oh and when i say shiek/zelda i dont mean someone who starts as shiek for damage then switches to zelda for the kill the whole "cookie cutter" idea that shiek cant kill or zelda cant give damage is silly, of course thats just how i personally feel.

usually people say. oh he plays a "offensive blank" or a "defensive blank" imagine your in a match against a shiek/zelda player and you have no idea if they are going to play a defensive/offensive shiek AS WELL as having to worry about if they are going to play a defensive/offensive zelda.

i kind of plan it as i go along according to how they play. lets see thats four different ways i can play all in one match. and i can change it at anytime. pretty scary IMO heh.

Fair enough, but its really not so simple as spamming arrows or chainthrow on the competitive scene because everyone is spamming arrows and chain throwing. When everyone is playing to win, winning becomes a big deal (and is therefore satisfying)

But we may be off topic now...

hmmm with the needles they should go
back to the almighty i stop every projectile needle from melee
i miss canceling samus beams with one small needle

Kyzon Xin said:

hmmm with the needles they should go
back to the almighty i stop every projectile needle from melee
i miss canceling samus beams with one small needle

Click to expand...

I agree, that would simply be a bonus for Shiek!

As for what I think would have to be fixed up, I think Vanish deserves at least a reappear hitbox so she cannot be edgeguarded when she can't get the ledge with the chain. That way of dying does kind of get old lol.

The chain maybe could get a little less lag in general but otherwise I see no problem with it.

Dair........yea Dair. I like the underpowered Bowser Bomb line to describe it. Either get rid of the fastfall and make it into at least a weak spike or, at least add some more priority. At the moment, it is pretty much useless.

That is all!

We can hope so much for the next game to have all these changes , hopefully some are made..

Take off the lag of the chain, I dont mind if it does little damage, it can still be very useful, I use the chains till though when I can, but try not too much , as Im still learning with Sheik also.

Fix the D-Air, it is good to use when you are right above the person or he/she is vulnerable, but please change it..

Maybe buff up the f-air and b-air just a little bit(holds two finger to make a space, just a bit).

F-Smash, two kicks really isnt necessary, too much space covered, and you have to hope for the second kick for good knockback or anything.

My only problem is the chain and i dont want to be sent downwards with the d-air.

My Take on what you said :

VANISH
...you're overpowering it to much. it doesn't need better start up time or blah blah blah. All it needs is a little bit of damage on the re-appear. and NO...it does not need 15% damage and killer knockback. All it needs is 1% damage and minimal knockback, just enough so that she cant be so easily gimped when returning against an edgehog. Currently BOTH of her saves are gimped by an edgehog, and it would be nice to see one of them at least giving her the chance to grab the edge like a large part of the rest of the cast. I would love to see that happen.

CHAIN
This is fine...read Ryoko's threads and see how useful it is.

NEEDLES
Stop whining. Needles are fine. Double tapping B isnt that hard.

TRANSFORM
...yeah it would be nice to have a faster transform. I dunno why they'd make transform take longer in a game following the fact that no one ever used it in the original. The Wii processing would probably find a way to screw it over somehow anyway...

DAir
...I'd just like to it be faster and not so f'in laggy. We don;t need two hits...it would be niceBut better yet, just keep the old DAir. The old DAir was GREAT...and now we have this piece of garbage.

UAir
...this is fine, stop trying to powerup every move.

FSmash
...again...you're trying too hard. You can't just buff everything and say it'll be balanced. Pick and choose man.

Dash A
Lol...then don't use it into shield or miss with it. C'mon man, the dash attack is already insanely fast...it has to have SOME drawback. Imagine that... the creators forcing us to use an attack INTELLIGENTLY, rather then just throwing it out there with no consequences!!! *gasp*

Throws
Lol...Kill throws are already ********...we don't need one. You're over powering the character again. You wanna get a kill past 150%?...well then either land am USmash, or switch to Zelda.

Transform is not a hardware issue... they did it on purpose.
Transform was near instant in melee O_O

Isn't the whole point to get around your characters weaknesses? Sounds to me like a desperate cry for an easy to use Top Tier character.

If I made a thread like this in the Olimar boards it would turn into a giant spam thread of how bad Olimars recovery is, but Olimainers accept the fact that he has a bad recovery and do their best to get around it. Just get around the weaknesses and represent your character to the best of your abilities.

I don't think the transform is a hardware issue, it's slow on purpose, kind of like changing PT's Pokemon but you can control how long that takes.

Squidster said:

Transform is not a hardware issue... they did it on purpose.
Transform was near instant in melee O_O

Click to expand...

Okay, maybe it's not TECHNICALLY a hardware issue, but it's lazy programming. In melee they loaded both characters at the same time in the start screen, and now they don't.

...however the transformation problems are somewhat exacerbated by the Wii's poor processi9gn Power. I mean, in Melee, it was consistent, over and over again, same transformation time, no worries. Now, it's REALLY variable...and I blame part of the variability on the hardware itself, not just because they meant it like that.

...perhaps they meant it to be longer, but theres no excuse for it to be 4 seconds once, then 3, then 4, then 2.5 ...that'd just be ridiculous to program specifically.