Pokedex Entry 3: Mr. Game and Watch

Steeler · Jul 1, 2008

ah, my secondary...in training. :s

Game and Watch probably has some of the best match ups in the game, behind perhaps only Metaknight. How does he stack up against PT's three pokemon? Currently the type chart has...

Squirtle neutral
Ivysaur neutral
Charizard super effective

i'll say this, GW kind of out ranges squirtle, particularly in the air with his disjointed hitbox on fair/bair. and dthrow to dsmash is DEADLY and so easy for gw to pull off. make sure you know how to tech that or else you are in trouble at 80%+...

ivy can razor leaf without fear since it pierces the bucket, and bair pierces gw's decent range. be wary of fsmash, it's SUPER EFFECTIVE. can kill at pretty low percents. but gw is light as well.

zard can powerhouse kill this guy but gw's ko ability has been buffed so much that he can almost match zard kill for kill. flamethrower is pretty nice, just be wary of the bucket once gw is at the edge of the flame. overall your ranges are kind of similar...you are just heavier than he is, i think.

that's my three cents, now what do you have to say about it?

discussion on the gw board:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179572

Onxy · Jul 1, 2008

Hehe, well considering that it is 3:20 AM right now, I can't really add much. I will be throwing little things around that people might not know, little details (i.e. Ivy's Fsmash has priority over G&W's Fsmash). Lol.

Elliot Gale · Jul 1, 2008

I don't know anything about this one. I'll get back to you all when I do. xX

Retro Gaming · Jul 1, 2008

I'm going to say that, if a change is going to be made, Squirtle will be at a slight disadvantage. I have no experience with it, though, so it might not be so.

Demenise · Jul 1, 2008

This match up is very odd for Pokemon Trainer, and fighting a Game and Watch proves to be a rather exciting (yet somewhat difficult) experience. I don't play AGAINST many Game and Watches. However, my main used to be Game and Watch, and I did rather well as him. Therefore, I'm going to see if I can get anything out of that.

Squirtle: Despite his incredibly light weight, Game and Watch will be tough to kill. His recovery can easily get through Squirtle's edgeguarding, and even if you do manage to edgeguard, Game and Watch can easily outrange and outprioritize you in the air. Your best bet is killing with the Up Smash, which actually does kill pretty well. Game and Watch demolishes Squirtle on the ground, and outprioritizes him in the air. It's all about surprise attacking and keeping the pressure on, yet being very careful about it. Squirtle is at a disadvantage.

Ivysaur: Ivysaur is better off against Game and Watch, yet still not great. In the air, their range is about equal (Ivysaur may have a little more,) yet Game and Watch has some killer priority that can **** your aerials. On the ground, Ivysaur does rather well, yet Game and Watch still has some range. Watch out for Game and Watch getting you off-stage with chains of Back Air; this happens often. The best part about Ivysaur in this fight is how easily she can kill. Since most of her kills come from the top, and Game and Watch is a light and floaty character, she'll have no problem killing off Game and Watch early... although there might be some major damage racked up on you first. About equal, Ivysaur possibly at a slight disadvantage.

Charizard: If you can adapt to Game and Watch's gameplay style, this fight is actually pretty good. Your range is about equal, but Game and Watch has the higher priority. However, if you land yours first, Charizard's high knockback allows you to follow up with another attack or just hang back for awhile. His Flamethrower is great for applying pressure and is a way around his ranged attacks. Game and Watch won't be killing you until later on, yet you'll be killing him early. Remember that Game and Watch's defense game is sub par, so keep applying pressure. Charizard is at a slight advantage.

Elliot Gale · Jul 1, 2008

I'd be inclined to agree with that. ^

Although G&W actually can kill zard at about 90 with Usmash. It's pretty obscene.

PkTrainerCris · Jul 1, 2008

Squirtle: Slight disadvantage, G&W has better range than you, better air game, and better ground game, also, light squirtle really fears the Dthrow to Dsmash and other killing moves(but not Fsmash), but not everything is lost, you are pretty faster and you can kill him well due to his weight, specially with usmash(hydroplaning works wonders here), and some Fair can kill him at low percents, dont try to edgeguard him, maybe a water gun gimp would work best
Ivysaur: Neutral . your range is a little better and you can kill him pretty well because most of your kills are on the top of the screen, Usmash and Uair really hurt him, Dtilt and Fair work wonders, dont try to bullet sedd too much.The bad part is that he also has good range, and he is a lot faster than you,also his air game really hurts ivy, watch out for the Fsmash and the fire sideB, those can send you really far
Charizard:Slight advantage. You are slower than he is, but oyu have some quick moves to make him really you, beware his air game, you better stay on the ground, your grabs and throws are really usefull and any sweetspoted attack can kill G&W(ftilt,dtilt,Bair and even Fair).Flamethrower when he is in midrange and stop it early than normally because of the bucket, G&W really fear rocksmash, if you are in the air Fair him to sned him away, Nair to protect yourself and bair to kill him, also, fly kills him pretty well

Retro Gaming · Jul 1, 2008

Demenise said:
This match up is very odd for Pokemon Trainer, and fighting a Game and Watch proves to be a rather exciting (yet somewhat difficult) experience. I don't play AGAINST many Game and Watches. However, my main used to be Game and Watch, and I did rather well as him. Therefore, I'm going to see if I can get anything out of that.

Squirtle: Despite his incredibly light weight, Game and Watch will be tough to kill. His recovery can easily get through Squirtle's edgeguarding, and even if you do manage to edgeguard, Game and Watch can easily outrange and outprioritize you in the air. Your best bet is killing with the Up Smash, which actually does kill pretty well. Game and Watch demolishes Squirtle on the ground, and outprioritizes him in the air. It's all about surprise attacking and keeping the pressure on, yet being very careful about it. Squirtle is at a disadvantage.

Ivysaur: Ivysaur is better off against Game and Watch, yet still not great. In the air, their range is about equal (Ivysaur may have a little more,) yet Game and Watch has some killer priority that can **** your aerials. On the ground, Ivysaur does rather well, yet Game and Watch still has some range. Watch out for Game and Watch getting you off-stage with chains of Back Air; this happens often. The best part about Ivysaur in this fight is how easily she can kill. Since most of her kills come from the top, and Game and Watch is a light and floaty character, she'll have no problem killing off Game and Watch early... although there might be some major damage racked up on you first. About equal, Ivysaur possibly at a slight disadvantage.

Charizard: If you can adapt to Game and Watch's gameplay style, this fight is actually pretty good. Your range is about equal, but Game and Watch has the higher priority. However, if you land yours first, Charizard's high knockback allows you to follow up with another attack or just hang back for awhile. His Flamethrower is great for applying pressure and is a way around his ranged attacks. Game and Watch won't be killing you until later on, yet you'll be killing him early. Remember that Game and Watch's defense game is sub par, so keep applying pressure. Charizard is at a slight advantage.

This sounds logically correct, but I would add what PKTrainerCris said about ending Flamethrower use early to avoid that bucket. I tested how fast he could fill up and it's almost instantly. Don't use Flamethrower when you predict he'll jump at you, only use it when he's already pretty close.

But for further clarification, you're saying:

Squirtle major disadvantage
Ivysaur slight disadvantage/enutral
Charizard slight advantage

Steeler · Jul 1, 2008

thread on the gw board created, set up some matches if you like!

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179572

Demenise · Jul 1, 2008

Elliot Gale said:
I'd be inclined to agree with that. ^

Although G&W actually can kill zard at about 90 with Usmash. It's pretty obscene.

'Course, if you're playing Charizard right, he won't be hit with that incredibly laggy smash.

Retro Gaming said:
This sounds logically correct, but I would add what PKTrainerCris said about ending Flamethrower use early to avoid that bucket. I tested how fast he could fill up and it's almost instantly. Don't use Flamethrower when you predict he'll jump at you, only use it when he's already pretty close.

But for further clarification, you're saying:

Squirtle major disadvantage
Ivysaur slight disadvantage/enutral
Charizard slight advantage

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And sorry, let me add something in for Flamethrower: it's a surprise approach. Game and Watch can bucket it, yes, but if you mix up your approaches, he won't see it coming, and with ultimately get caught in it. If you get predictable with short hopped Flamethrowers, then mix it up. Go for a short hopped Rock Smash. If he draws out his bucket, there'll be too much lag to counter.

Onxy · Jul 1, 2008

G&W's Dsmash isn't that laggy. Charizard's Dsmash executes at the same time as G&W's does.

Fearmy · Jul 1, 2008

Well Zard and Ivysaur are able to Dodge G&W's D-throw -> D-smash. Squirtle is not able to. Just wanted to point that out.

Blackbelt · Jul 1, 2008

You know what, instead of wrting my own stuff this time, I'll just say that Demenise is right.

Mr. Escalator · Jul 2, 2008

Demenise said:
'Course, if you're playing Charizard right, he won't be hit with that incredibly laggy smash.

You can always still get hit by it, though. It's a much harder smash to land than most, but it can definitely find a way into a match, as it's unexpected.

And sorry, let me add something in for Flamethrower: it's a surprise approach. Game and Watch can bucket it, yes, but if you mix up your approaches, he won't see it coming, and with ultimately get caught in it.

I've played charizards, and while I do think he's your best bet and not getting completely destroyed, flamethrower is really a bad thing to be doing, even if you just mix it up. The start up time is noticeable, especially the positioning of when you use it.

If you get predictable with short hopped Flamethrowers, then mix it up. Go for a short hopped Rock Smash. If he draws out his bucket, there'll be too much lag to counter.

He'll only pull out the bucket when he sees the startup on the flamethrower.

but

what you're talking about it mindgames, which are also present on the opponents side, as well as prediction and how they react.

Charizard is heavy
Can rack up damage
and kill well

G&W is light
can rack up damage probably better
and kill better

Edgeguarding is easy for him to employ versus Charizard
While G&W will usually always recovery.

6-4 is what the matchup feels like, but Zard is probably you're closest to even matchup, so go for neutral effectiveness. Ivysaur for 2x, and squirtle for 4x.

Thats my input.

Elliot Gale · Jul 2, 2008

Demenise said:
'Course, if you're playing Charizard right, he won't be hit with that incredibly laggy smash..

Theoretically, Ivysaur never lands Usmash and Uair either. :psycho:

Blackbelt · Jul 2, 2008

Mr. Escalator said:
You can always still get hit by it, though. It's a much harder smash to land than most, but it can definitely find a way into a match, as it's unexpected.

I've played charizards, and while I do think he's your best bet and not getting completely destroyed, flamethrower is really a bad thing to be doing, even if you just mix it up. The start up time is noticeable, especially the positioning of when you use it.

He'll only pull out the bucket when he sees the startup on the flamethrower.

but

what you're talking about it mindgames, which are also present on the opponents side, as well as prediction and how they react.

Charizard is heavy
Can rack up damage
and kill well

G&W is light
can rack up damage probably better
and kill better

Edgeguarding is easy for him to employ versus Charizard
While G&W will usually always recovery.

6-4 is what the matchup feels like, but Zard is probably you're closest to even matchup, so go for neutral effectiveness. Ivysaur for 2x, and squirtle for 4x.

Thats my input.

I agree with Ivysaur and Squirtle.

And I do agree that the Charizard matchup is very close to neutral.

Whether that neutral is more on the G&W side or the Zard side is what I argue.

I believe the matchup is more toward's Charizard's advantage.

Onxy · Jul 2, 2008

I believe that Ivy is more neutral than DA.

Mr. Escalator · Jul 2, 2008

Certainly not. G&W has matchups that are even with MK and Snake, and the only matchup with the noticeable advantage is Toon Link. G&W goes to town on big characters, with the obvious exception of snake and DK, and Charizard is no exception. He has issues on getting safely back down to the stage after and Upthrow or any other move that would launch him up, as G&W is probably the best abuser of having a character above himself. Uair will stall you up there and refresh moves, up B is a quick poke, fishbowl is an amazing lingering multihit move, and pretty much, he can lead into other aerials due to positional advantage. Charizard will get wrecked in the air by juggles.

Another issue which I mentioned is returning to the stage by means of recovery. G&W has a great offstage chase, and can even edgeguard Metaknight to a point. Charizard's recovery is a similar, yet worse, recovery than MK's, and G&W can use this to his advantage.

Ground game is mostly what Charizard has over G&W, with good grabs and quick rnaged attacks, but this isn't too big of a deal since G&W can get foes, especially big targets, into the air with most of his moves.

It's in G&W's favor definitely, but for all purposes, he IS your neutral matchup here. He does the best.

Ivysaur has much less versus G&W.
Again, avoid squirtle.

A2ZOMG · Jul 2, 2008

G&W outdoes Charizard in the air due to being faster with crazy things like his Up-B, super lagless aerials, fastfalling D-air, etc, so while Charizard does best vs G&W out of the three Pokemon, he still loses since he's essentially helpless once he's in the air.

Charizard may SLIGHTLY have a better ground game than G&W. Not by a whole ton though. G&W is a lot more nimble than Charizard mind you.

Also, G&W can ledgeguard even characters like MK pretty effectively. Pretty much NOBODY can ledgeguard G&W...except for R.O.B. to a small extent who still loses to G&W anyway. None of the three Pokemon have spectacular recovery. Charizard is fine in terms of distance of his recovery, but not speed and options.

Onxy · Jul 2, 2008

Mr. Escalator said:
Certainly not. G&W has matchups that are even with MK and Snake, and the only matchup with the noticeable advantage is Toon Link. G&W goes to town on big characters, with the obvious exception of snake and DK, and Charizard is no exception. He has issues on getting safely back down to the stage after and Upthrow or any other move that would launch him up, as G&W is probably the best abuser of having a character above himself. Uair will stall you up there and refresh moves, up B is a quick poke, fishbowl is an amazing lingering multihit move, and pretty much, he can lead into other aerials due to positional advantage. Charizard will get wrecked in the air by juggles.

Another issue which I mentioned is returning to the stage by means of recovery. G&W has a great offstage chase, and can even edgeguard Metaknight to a point. Charizard's recovery is a similar, yet worse, recovery than MK's, and G&W can use this to his advantage.

Ground game is mostly what Charizard has over G&W, with good grabs and quick rnaged attacks, but this isn't too big of a deal since G&W can get foes, especially big targets, into the air with most of his moves.

It's in G&W's favor definitely, but for all purposes, he IS your neutral matchup here. He does the best.

Ivysaur has much less versus G&W.
Again, avoid squirtle.

That whole line is completely irrelevant.

Steeler · Jul 2, 2008

how does ivy's bair match against gw's bair?

Demenise · Jul 2, 2008

Steeler36 from Nintendo NSider! said:
how does ivy's bair match against gw's bair?

Game and Watch's bair wins in pretty much every way. It lasts longer, hits more times, has more priority, breaks shields better, has more damage, and more knockback on the final hit. I think the range is about equal.

Mr. Escalator · Jul 2, 2008

Onxy said:
That whole line is completely irrelevant.

No, it was a sort of intro.
If you think Charizard has as much as Snake or MK in this matchup versus G&W, then thats sort of messed up. Snake lays damage and kills better than Charizard, yet is helpless in the air to a similar point. Snake has issues with recovering versus G&W's Fair, but Charizard probably has a little worse of a time with this. What I was poking at, is that if you think charizard goes even, then you probably think he has about as easy of a time as Snake.

and

why the **** does that matter? The rest of my post is fine, so nitpicking a stupid point just makes it seem like you're grasping at straws. No need to pick out stuff like that, as it does nothing to help further the discussion (which is sort of case and point already).

All of them have bad matchups with G&W.
Their usefulness would be:
Charizard
Ivysaur
Squirtle

but they still all have a rough time.
What don't you agree about this?

Elliot Gale · Jul 2, 2008

It's far-fetched because it's very difficult for PT to have a genuinely bad match-up. I'd be more inclined to agree or not after researching the match-up first hand for awhile.

Onxy · Jul 2, 2008

I'm just saying that because it doesn't matter if your neutral with powerful characters, you can still be very weak to much weaker ones.

Onxy · Jul 2, 2008

Demenise said:
Game and Watch's bair wins in pretty much every way. It lasts longer, hits more times, has more priority, breaks shields better, has more damage, and more knockback on the final hit. I think the range is about equal.

Range is not equal, Ivy wins in range. Couldn't you just smack G&W with Bair wihen he does Bair?

Mr. Escalator · Jul 2, 2008

Well, if PT does have a genuinely bad matchup, this would be it. G&W wrecks squirtle, beats up ivysaur, and does pretty well with charizard.

Firsthand experience is not something I'm offering, Gale, otherwise I would of took you up on that the first time xD

It matters in a sense that Snake does what Charizard does better in the matchup.
But you're line was irrelevant.

Onxy · Jul 2, 2008

He wrecks Squirtle, and he would wreck Ivy if the Ivy player was bad. IDK about Charizard.

PkTrainerCris · Jul 2, 2008

I agree in ivysaur having a bad matchup against game and watch because of the fact that she can be easily edgeguarded and that crazy supereffective Fsmash, but i think that squirtle is not so bad against G&W to have a 4x weakness, i mean, come on, usmash kill G&W at crazy percents, so do Uair and a well placed Fair , and Dthrow kills sooner than expected. I also disagree in the charizard being neutral thing. I think he has a slight advantage because its so easy for himm to kill a G&W with usmash, utilt, rocksmash, Dsmash,Dtilt or Ftilt, in the air he can repel G&W with Fair, protect himself with Nair or aim for the kill with Bair, and he can recover quite well because of the super armor frames in fly.

Onxy · Jul 2, 2008

G&W owns Squirtle harder than you think. Ivysaur isn't bad against him, and edgeguarding/Firestick isn't the only thing she should worry about >_>

cutter · Jul 2, 2008

PkTrainerCris said:
I agree in ivysaur having a bad matchup against game and watch because of the fact that she can be easily edgeguarded and that crazy supereffective Fsmash, but i think that squirtle is not so bad against G&W to have a 4x weakness, i mean, come on, usmash kill G&W at crazy percents, so do Uair and a well placed Fair , and Dthrow kills sooner than expected. I also disagree in the charizard being neutral thing. I think he has a slight advantage because its so easy for himm to kill a G&W with usmash, utilt, rocksmash, Dsmash,Dtilt or Ftilt, in the air he can repel G&W with Fair, protect himself with Nair or aim for the kill with Bair, and he can recover quite well because of the super armor frames in fly.

Squirtle does not have massive lingering disjointed hitboxes with huge priority to fight back against G&W. Squirtle does not have one of the best moves in the game (G&W's Bair), and he has no good way to stop the Turtle. He also does not have overpowered kill moves that have IASA frames on them.

G&W completely decimates Squirtle.

Onxy · Jul 2, 2008

Ivy can stop the Bair with her Bair, but that's Ivy, you're right about Squirtle though.

Amide · Jul 3, 2008

To be brutally honest, this is tied for PT's worst matchup with MK.

G&W>Squirtle OR G&W=Squirtle

Running USmash is your friend. G&W is a character that will fight as close as possible. Take advantage of this. Unfortunately, his aerials are ten times better than yours. Thankfully, his bair is less helpful against you then other characters. Keep your distance and attack when the time is right

G&W>Ivysaur
I'd really love to say that Ivy outranges G&W. But he really doesn't. G&W has amazing range, despite the small figure. He will murder you in air, his aerials are much quicker, and when you want to fight on the ground, the G&W will want to fight in the air, and more percisely, bair.

G&W>Charizard

This one is a little better for the PT than with Ivy. But I repeat, do not use fire breath. It will fill the tank. Charizard out ranges G&W on ground, but watch for sh bair spamming. If a G&W misses a Dair, punish. Also, rocksmash is great against G&W, especially against Bair. Unfortunately, G&W wins in air, no matter what, G&W is really annoying.

If anyone wants a match with me using G&W, PM me.

PkTrainerCris · Jul 3, 2008

Yeah maybe G&W have a large advantage over squirtle, because you only have one attack to really hurt him , the Usmash, and spamming it will result in not being able to kill him. Maybe the strategie against a G&W with the lil turtle is shellshift jabs ans hydroplaning the most you can, and play defensive.
For charizard, i still think is an advantage, you just gotta play in a defensive-ofensive alternating gameplay, and the sweetspots really hurt G&W, the smash is deadly for him, and i think that fsmash , well spaced ftilt and rock smash go throught the turtle(not sure) also, is it true tah G&W's nair works as a "water" attack???

Onxy · Jul 3, 2008

G&W > Squirtle. It's hell, he out ranges you, sheild grabs you a lot, you die very early etc...

Retro Gaming · Jul 3, 2008

TLink_King said:
G&W>Charizard

This one is a little better for the PT than with Ivy. But I repeat, do not use fire breath. It will fill the tank. Charizard out ranges G&W on ground, but watch for sh bair spamming. If a G&W misses a Dair, punish. Also, rocksmash is great against G&W, especially against Bair. Unfortunately, G&W wins in air, no matter what, G&W is really annoying.

If anyone wants a match with me using G&W, PM me.

This sounds more like Neutral. I think it sounds like G&W>>Squirtle, too.

PkTrainerCris · Jul 3, 2008

So.... is it ok squirlte great disadvantage, ivysaur slight disadvantage, and charizard neutral?... alos... somebody please answer my question: is G&W's nair a "water" attack??

cutter · Jul 3, 2008

G&W's Nair does the same amount of damage to Charizard just like with every other character (17%).

Elliot Gale · Jul 3, 2008

Elemental weaknesses only apply to knockback. So, it doesn't really matter if it's super effective or not. It isn't killing, and increased knockback would just decrease the ability to follow up.

Amide · Jul 5, 2008

Some revisions to what I have said earlier from feedback:

G&W>Squirtle

G&W>Ivysaur

G&W=Charizard

Pokedex Entry 3: Mr. Game and Watch

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