~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

Introduction


The key to playing a successful Lucario is knowing when you at an advantage, when you are in a stalemate, and when you are at a disadvantage. Why? Because a good Lucario must be able to change his play style depending on his situation. Adaptability: Being able to adjust easily to a new environment or different conditions. Something all Lucarios must be aware of.


As of now, this chart is quite empty. This is where you come in.

How can I contribute?

The purpose of this thread is to discuss where you believe Lucario should be placed in accordance with each character. Does Lucario have an advantage against Mario? This is where to find out.

Are you having trouble with a specific character? Do you want to know how to beat them? Well, this is where you find out.

The only thing that I ask is that you NOT BE BIASED. Saying Lucario is better than all characters is pointless, and in the end only hurts us.
Knowing against who Lucario excels and lacks is vital.

Rather than just saying, "Lucario is advantageous to Ike." say why you believe so.

I will update this chart whenever a conclusion has been met concerning a specific character. The minimun amount of time that we will spend discussing a character is 3 days. The maximum is 1 week.


Other noteworthy discussion topic:

Inverse Match-Up Thread


Things to discuss:

*Behavior of Character- How will this character play a match%

IMPORTANT UPDATES
7/18 - Added some more Zamus info under "Fundamental Moves".
7/23 - Re-did "Recommended Stages" section, and also edited "Behavior" a little bit.
7/25 - Added a bit of info for Kirby's "Fundamental Moves".




~Rotation 1~ Mario (pg. 2-8)


~Rotation 2~ Donkey Kong (pg. 8-18)


~Rotation 3~ Link (pg. 18-23)


~Rotation 4~ Samus (pg. 23-29)


~Rotation 5~ Zero Suit Samus (pg. 29-32)


~Rotation 6~ Marth (pg. 33-39)


~Rotation 7~ Kirby (pg. 39-42)


~Rotation 8~ Fox (pg. 42-45)


~Rotation 9~ Pikachu (pg. 45-50)


~Rotation 10~ Luigi (pg. 50-57)


~Rotation 11~ Mr. Game & Watch (pg. 57-65)


~Rotation 12~ Ness (pg. 65-76)


~Rotation 13~ R.O.B. (pg. 76-87)


~Rotation 14~ Snake (pg. 87-94)


~Rotation 15~ Peachy (pg. 95-103)


~Rotation 16~ Zelda (pg. 103-111)

~Sheik~

Sheik.
(s)he's a ninja.

Back for another time, and counter ego of Zelda. Sheik is quite different then zelda in many ways.One being killing power. Two beingable to rack up damage. The two seem to be the polars to that.



Sheik loves to run up to you, pull your pants down and run off giggling. She's got more of a penetrating, poke and jab thing going for her, that is not fun for lucario's. Then when your far away, she'll throw needles at you. Tons of them. However, AS's beat needles. Her smashes lack full-out killing power, but later in the match, are fast enough to where that doesnt matter. Her tilts are awesome, very awesome.

"F-tilt, Nuff said."

Her recovery isnt as long as Zeldas, and it does do damage, which used right, can make for an interesting edgehogging tech. It is lack luster and can fall prey to cario's EShoggin. Also, because she cannot kill, (but rack damage instead) lucario will get stronger faster and still live. Which is not good for Sheik but great for Lucario.

Over all, its tipped to Lucario if solo. But Sheik has it easier fighting him then Zelda.

-tedward2000

Behavior:

• Sheik's not a huge problem for Lucario because of her anemic power. She can build up the damage well, but she has only two moves that can kill below 150%: her upwards smash (Luke's downwards aerial easily beats that out) and Vanish (obvious).
  
  She does have the ability to weave in and out, but Lucario simply trounces her over her lack of power. Her needles blast Aura Sphere, sadly, but that's about all she can do (the needles hitting Lucario is usually helpful).
  -Jehonaker
• Sheik is fast, and can get around a lot of Lucario's attacks if improperly used. However, seeing as how she has trouble killing, and it's rather difficult to get in successfully with Zelda as well, this is definitely not a match that favors Sheik(or Zelda). The matchup is pretty much the defining counter to the "weak-fast" archetype - Lucario gets hit a lot but has decent survivability, and only gets stronger; so Sheik is in effect boosting his victory condition as part of her normal game.
  
  I think a limited ftilt lock into utilt is still possible, but that dair is annoying to work against.
  -Ankoku
• Rising SH nairs and properly spaced bairs are very hard to get a grab in against Sheik. Her bair has pretty nice range on it and has good knockback. If she hits with the weaker part of nair, bair, or fair it can string into pretty much anything.
  
  She does have a real problem killing against Lucario so switching to Zelda would be ideal here. Her double hit usmash does do 30% but is extremely hard to land.
  -marsulas
• Due to her speed, Sheik does a great job at breaking through your defense. Nearly all of her ground moves (if not all of them) are quite a bit faster than yours. Look:
  
  Jab
  HIT: 2
  
  Forward Tilt
  HIT: 4
  
  Down Smash
  HIT: 4, 16, 23
  
  Dash Attack
  HIT: 5 (!)
  
  As you can see, Sheik will have little difficulty beating you to the punch at close range. Her aerials while lacking range (except bair) are all extremely fast as well - nair is 2 frames and bair is 3. Like all matchups, it's important here for Luc to space well and outrange her. As long as you play smart and don't get usmashed, Luc will thrive off the Aura boost and shut her down.
  
  A lot of Sheik players like to compensate her lack of killing power with gimps. Luc's fair, dair, and AS should be able to ward off any attempts at that. Try to avoid using upb to recover whenever you can.
  
  Sheik can very easily play hit and run tactics, build up enough damage, and switch to Zelda for the KO. If both Sheik and Zelda are used, I'm tempted to say the matchup is 50-50. Using either character alone would be around 60-40 with Zelda fairing slightly better against Luc.
  -Fizzle
  
  Update Log
  
  6/18 - Thread Posted.
  6/19 - Mario Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  6/20 - Mario Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves, How to Win] Updated.
  6/21 - Mario Info [Fundamental Moves, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  6/23 - Mario Info [Behavior, How to Win] Updated.
  6/23 - Mario Info [Fundamental Moves] Updated.
  6/24 - Mario Info [Behavior] Updated.
  6/26 - Donkey Kong Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves, How to Win] Updated. Rough Draft.
  6/27 - Donkey Kong Info [Fundamental Moves, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  6/29 - Donkey Kong Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated. A lot.
  7/1 - Donkey Kong Info [Fundamental Moves] Updated.
  7/2 - Link Info [Intro] Updated.
  7/4 - Link Info [Behavior, How to Win] Updated. Rough Draft.
  7/8 - Link Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  7/10 - Samus Info [Intro, Behavior, How to Win] Updated. Rough Draft.
  7/12 - Samus Info [Fundamental Moves] Updated.
  7/13 - Samus Info [Recommended Stages, Behavior] Updated.
  7/14 - ZSS Info [Intro, Behavior, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated. Rough Draft.
  7/15 - ZSS Info [Behavior, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  7/16 - ZSS Info [Fundamental Moves, Match-Up, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  7/17 - Marth Info [Intro] Updated.
  7/18 - Marth Info [Fundamental Moves, How to Win, Behavior] Updated. Rough Draft.
  7/19 - Marth Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  7/20 - Marth Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  7/21 - Kirby Info [Intro, Behavior] Updated. Rough Draft.
  7/22 - Kirby Info [Behavior, How to Win] Updated.
  7/23 - Kirby Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves] Updated.
  7/24 - Kirby Info [Fundamental Moves, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  7/24 - Fox Info [Intro, Behavior, How to Win] Updated. Rough Draft.
  7/29 - Fox Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  7/31 - Pikachu Info [Intro] Updated.
  8/1 - Pikachu Info [Fundamental Moves, How to Win] Updated.
  8/2 - Pikachu Info [Behavior, How to Win] Updated.
  8/4 - Pikachu Info [Behavior, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  8/6 - Luigi Info [Intro] Updated.
  8/7 - Luigi Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves. How to Win] Updated.
  8/9 - Luigi Info [Recommended Stages] Update.
  8/13 - G&W Info [Intro, Behavior, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  8/15 - G&W Info [Fundamental Moves] Updated.
  8/20 - Ness Info [Intro, Behavior, Fundamental Moves, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated. Rough Draft.
  8/21 - Ness Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  9/6 - ROB Info [Behavior, Fundamental Moves, How to Win] Updated.
  9/9 - ROB Info [Behavior, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated. Happy?
  9/27 - Snake Info [Intro, Behavior, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  9/29 - Snake Info [Recommended Stages] Updated.
  10-14 - Peach Info [Intro, Behavior, Fundamental Moves, How to Win, Recommended Stages] Updated.
  11-2 - Zelda/Sheik Info [Buncha' Stuff] Updated.
  
  Special Thanks
  
  Blad01 and Steeler36 for the ideas.
  
  Nodrak for helping get this thread started.
  
  Timbers for always contributing to the discussion, going out of his way to ask for other boards' opinions, updating the chart, and just being an awesome person in general.
  
  Coen (I think) for getting stickying this, and Erich for helping me get it stickied.
  
  And last but not least, thanks to everyone who has posted here thus far! Thanks for staying on topic! (Rare for the Lucario boards)
  
  Specifically quoted people: tedward2000, Timbers, D. Disciple, dguy6789, Nodrak, Infi-Tan, Pentaoku, NESSBOUNDER, manhunter098, djbrowny, Sonic The Hedgedawg, Ark22, Zero Gamer, Erich, Kitamerby, Kasai, Illucamy, Bouse, Fizzle, Emblem Lord, phi1ny3, betterthanbonds9, T-nuts, SparkSpiegel19, MK26, Trexxen, Pgh-M@v-Pgh, Trela, SparkEd, hippiedude92, Conclusively, cutter, tomkraven, Simna ibn Sind, Kappie, FlameWakeK, DarkDragoon, Trapt497, Praxis, Col. Stauffenberg, Jehonaker, LordoftheMorning.

hehe, stolen from the PT boards


First the inverse matchup thread and now this... you Lucario's are a sneaky bunch

EDIT: yeah I guess that was kinda useless sorry

Here, I'll help out a bit

From playing bother ZSS and Lucario I would have to say that Lucario has a slight advantage. I find it kinda hard to kill a decent lucario, I end up just racking up damage and making them stronger and more likely to kill me

Actually I suggested wsnake but since that's not a real character (killjoy).

Also yeah, Lucario is sneaky, we caught snake on the halberd. All of Snakes enemies couldn't do that!

Anyway, for Snake...

Snake will kill campy Lucario's. All of his projectiles go through Lucario's Aura Sphere and Force Palm Flame.

Snake has unexplainable disjointed hitboxes, and can travel 3/4's of FD in less then a second while attacking (and not just the dash attack canceled up smash). He has ridiculous priority and can kill at low %'s

Lucario on the other hand can CG Snake to at least 50%, if done right you can chaingrab combo him to 80-100%. Lucario can also double team Snake's projectiles since they're pretty predictable (travel at a constant speed-ish)

If Lucario can sit back, toss back some grenades, jump over some missiles ect... there isn't much Snake can do. If Snake starts to run, generally you can just double team. Keep in mind Snake with his campiness has no reason to move, except to slide across the stage shooting mortars. But all of this is gone is the Lucario screws up.

Snake has high knockback attacks, they can be lethal even at low%'s. Lucario is the opposite, Lucario is a combo monster. So to be honest, I think this matchup can go either way. I'd leave it neutral

This post has no flow to it at all, I appologize, I wrote each section in short bursts while watching tv =S

MK should probably be a neutral matchup. Lucario's Fair apparently can go through MK's tornado, and what MK has in speed Lucario matches in range.

Snake is probably correct, but Lucario does dominate him in the air and I believe Snake can be Force-palm chain-grabbed. While I'm not sure of the matchup, I have heard of some lesser players using Lucario as a Snake counter. I am more inclined to give Lucario the disadvantage, though, because of Snakes power and weight.

Interesting that the matchup chart gives Lucario the advantage against Charzard. Of all the heavy-weights, Charzard is not only one of the fastest, but has an air-game to rival Lucario's. He also looks like a character which is as easy to combo as Dedede, which might be why the advantage is given to Lucario.

Call me crazy but I think Snake is an even match up. Lucario can chaingrab him to around 70-80%, can out camp him and once you get Snake in the air you can combo him so much. (Snake is just not good in the air against most people)

Of course Snake is capable of killing Lucario quite fast. U-tilt is godly and I'm almost positive it can out prioritize and out range Luc's f-smash. If you get caught in f-tilt at mid-high percents you're pretty much screwed.

Lucario can grab Snake's 'nades and toss them back at Snake. Mines and C4 can be a problem if you aren't careful.

I truly believe that it is dependent on the players skills. I've won matches against Snake and I've lost matches to Snake. As Snake I've been beaten by Lucario players and I've beaten Lucario players as well.

Why did you initially put disadvantages on the people you did? Just because they can absorb/reflect/block Aura Sphere easily?

I also don't understand why we're at a disadvantage to Marth and Meta Knight and Toon Link.


About Diddy Kong, bananas arent' a disadvantage. We can use them just as much as they Diddy can. The only thing is, is the Diddy has trained with his bananas and can spawn them.

Snake needs to be neutral. Snake can KO at ridiculous, but only if he saves his utilt. We can drag him off the stage and gimp him with our powerful projectile and bair and such.

Infi-tan said:

About Diddy Kong, bananas arent' a disadvantage. We can use them just as much as they Diddy can. The only thing is, is the Diddy has trained with his bananas and can spawn them.

Click to expand...

Everyone says that about diddy, but that honestly rarely happens vs a good one. Even so, a portion of Diddy's moveset is setup to recollect the bananas.

Bananas are a disadvantage. They are made for Diddy like Link's bombs are made for Link.

--As for Marth, there are times that he'll dominate but with defensive play a lucario player won't really have a disadvantage. I vote neutral.

Diddy's bananas do not explode with splash damage.

If Diddy glidetosses a banana at me and dash attacks, I am going to shield the banana and aura sphere him, then pick up the banana. Or if i'm late I'll shield grab since he cant' grab out of his no-lag dash because he has the banana. Or if I shield the banana, how about I insta-drop shield and jump+Air dodge to grab the banana and dodge the dash, and Force Palm on my way down? A Diddy introducing a banana to the match only adds an item. Heck, you can catch items without shielding just by tapping A before it hits you with good timing.

The problem isn't Diddy's bananas are too good. The problem is no other character has the knowledge to use bananas effectively like a Diddy can, due to lack of training.

Baky said:

Bananas are a disadvantage. They are made for Diddy like Link's bombs are made for Link.

Click to expand...

Link's bombs are rediculusly easy to catch and throw back. If he holds it until it's about to explode and throws it, you have pleanty of options, shield, jump, roll, sphere ect.. Link's bombs are the least of our worries. Diddy is a little prick. His banana's don't worry me too much. Even his peanuts I like to catch. Honestly, just don't get hit by a thrown banana and you're pretty safe from them. The one's on the ground are pretty easy to see and avoid.


Though I think this thread would work better if we discussed one character at a time, instead of a barrage of everything at once. It's just easier to keep track of and easier to see what the consensus is.

Link a vid where a player catches thrown items consistently. I'd also expect it to be a battle between skilled players.

Now on a different note. Imma have to withdraw from the Diddy discussion until I can reinforce my words more efficiently.

Boot up Melee and watch the special video. There's part where two DK's are throwing a Bob-Omb back and forth.

A video like what you're asking won't exist since high level matches aren't played with items, so none of the "skilled" players will be able to perform the mechanic reliably, or even try for it because they haven't trained it like people that play with items will have. The point is, is if someone saw it coming, and a Diddy with a banana in hand is like a red flag to WATCH OUT, then they could catch it easily if they knew the proper timing. Diddy Bananas are not a disadvantage, especially since even if you CAN'T catch them out of the air, yet, it's a simple thing to shield and pick it up.

Baky said:

Link a vid where a player catches thrown items consistently. I'd also expect it to be a battle between skilled players.

Now on a different note. Imma have to withdraw from the Diddy discussion until I can reinforce my words more efficiently.

Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNZf3aXpzD8

diddy didnt even bother against a good player, using them is rarely worth the risk.

any lucario isnt at a disadvantage against Ness, MK and marth. even at most. id say lucas is neutral too since unlike ness, he doesnt posses the all-powerful bthrow which is a nightmare to deal with. besides his usmash which is easy enough to see coming, he cant KO very well, not until about 115% do his other attacks begin to kill.

zelda can be hard, but nothing like G&W hard. approaching her is just so risky. id put it a a diasdvantage but not enough to warrant a red.

and yeah leave snake at neutral. CG for a free 60-70% at start of every stock, and for god's sake people learn the range of the mortar slide and his tilts. as someone said, treat snake as if he had a sword as long as ikes. think of hos far you stay away from ikes ftilt, and apply the same to snake. suddenly he looks... almost human

djbrowny said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNZf3aXpzD8
diddy didnt even bother against a good player, using them is rarely worth the risk.

Click to expand...

no, he didnt even bother to use it against sonic.


but leave diddy alone for now pl0x

I'll come back to him later.

Infi-tan said:

The point is, is if someone saw it coming, and a Diddy with a banana in hand is like a red flag to WATCH OUT, then they could catch it easily if they knew the proper timing. Diddy Bananas are not a disadvantage, especially since even if you CAN'T catch them out of the air, yet, it's a simple thing to shield and pick it up.

Click to expand...

Most Diddys glide toss their bananas into dash attack or smash or whatever. That makes it pretty hard to pick it up, I've experienced >< Admittedly I haven't played many Diddys, but the general idea (I've gathered) is to just pressure them when their bananas aren't out, and play a smart defense when they are out. Bananas don't last very long.

I disagree with some of the matchups, but I haven't the time to specifically go into why that is. I'll just say I think both Snake and MK should be neutral.

Diddy Kong has no real advantage over Lucario. Diddy's moveset is largely an average one with very few moves that seem to stand out as being worth mentioning. Diddy has an average level ko power and doesn't have any significant ko resist.

The only thing that makes this matchup even slightly interesting is the bananas, which are already being discussed at length. I am just going to say that Lucario as a character is fully capable of handling any type of banana shenanigans that a Diddy player may try to use. Your skill in dealing with bananas is yours and yours alone, the character is not the reason bananas get you. This match is green.

dguy6789 said:

Diddy has an average level ko power and doesn't have any significant ko resist..

Click to expand...

diddy has the lowest KO potential in the game... everyone has better smashes except samus, but her dtilt does fine.

djbrowny said:

diddy has the lowest KO potential in the game... everyone has better smashes except samus, but her dtilt does fine.

Click to expand...

Lowest in the whole game really? That is interesting.

As far as that chart is concerned, I think that lucario breaks even with MK and possible snake/marth. His main disadvantage is against GW with a few other characters giving him trouble. He is pretty even with most people and doesn't really have that big advantages against them...a pretty even character.

Numbers are how much of an advantage or disadvantage I think the character has on one another... (Yes this was taking from the other thread but I will try to elaborate some more)

Bowser 70:30
He is a big target. You are faster than him and can get him off the edge fairly easily and once there you can gimp him very easily

CF 70:30
He got so horribly gimped this game but there are good players out there so you have to be careful when dealing with him because if you have the mind set of "Piece of cake" they could surprise you.

Diddy 60:40
They use bananas in their game to help them out which you can turn against them, their recovery is gimp-able by just getting hit by it or hitting it, you have range on them.

DK 70:30
He is big and easy to hit. Keep your game changed up (vary between offense and defense) and you should have them on the ropes. They can KO you early but you can see it coming early enough to deal with it.

Falco 55:45
This would be 50:50 but you can gimp his recovery where he can't gimp yours. This match up really comes down to player skill.

Fox 55:45
Same as Falco

G&W 30:70
I might not have a good enough GnW in my area to see this one. I put it at that rating because of what I have read he could do to us.

Ganondorf 80:20
Worst character in the game. Watch out for the occasional Ganoncide and down air and you should be fine.

IC 60:40
It is easy enough to separate the two of them which makes the fight a lot easier. They are fast in the air but I believe we are faster. Get it to 1v1 and you should be okay.

Ike 70:30
Gimp-able recovery, slower moves then you, no ranged attack. He can kill you at low percentages so watch out, but those of equal skill shouldn't have a problem with this match up.

Jiggs 65:35
Fighting is super effective against normal type. But seriously you have range, reach, priority, and power on this little guy. She can rest you but come on... I don't even think she can wall of pain you effectively since your air game is better.

King Dedede 50:50
This is a test of player skill, both characters counter each other well. It is really hard to say. I want to say DDD has the advantage because he is easier to use but it really does come down the player skill.

Kirby 60:40
It is hard for Kirby to get inside of Lucario's Aura. You have land and air superiority on this guy but Kirby is a very good combo character so watch out.

Link 60:40
Dont mess with links aerials, they hurt. I might be wrong here but in my experience his air game is better with the use of projectiles and attacks.

Lucario 100:0 (Lucario can't lose this match up ^_^;;; )

Lucas 60:40
You can gimp his recovery pretty easily with AS, or just hit him again to get him farther away. Other then that get in close he will camp better then you and knock him off the stage.

Luigi ??:?? (No one plays him around here)
Mario ??:?? (No one plays him around here)

Marth 55:45
Your Forward Smash has more range, without tipping you generally have stronger moves. One of the best if not best player in my area tells me that this match up is slightly in Lucario's favor but not by much so skill comes into play here a lot.

MK 45:55
My area's MK is too good for me to see it otherwise this is just based on my experience. Spacing is key here since we have longer reach but from what I have seen he has air superiority.

Ness 60:40
He is a weaker Lucus for how you play against him and easier to gimp

Olimar 55:45
Maybe I don't have good enough Olimar players to show me how he is better

Peach 60:40
Your air game should be able to beat hers and she spends most of her time up there so you should have this one down. Just watch out for her Up Smash and Forward Air.

Pikachu 45:55
My area had a very good Pikachu. It seems like Pikachu has priority on us in most cases and the little rat is faster to boot.

Pit 50:50
This one comes down to player skill I feel. It can be hard to get inside him at times but you can rack up damage (from what I have seen) on him easily enough if you space out your Forward Smashes right you can get him.

PT S70:30 I65:35 C60:40
God where do I start umm Squirtle is a hand to hand type since he really has no ranged attacks and you are better than him in that sense. Ivysaur is the toughest since he can keep his distance, Bullet Seed to get crazy amounts of damage on you with just one attack and his Forward Smash can KO you as soon as a DK could. Also don't get his by his Up B it hurts.. a lot. Charizard ummm watch out for Rock Smash his other moves seem to slow to get caught in.

Rob 55:45
This match up is tough but I think we have a slight advantage. I teamed with a pretty good ROB and he was tough for me to fight. If you can get inside him and not get baited into the Spot-Dodge >> Down Smash your close range game should beat his. His air game is tough to fight. If there is someone playing ROB of higher skill then you, you will have a rough time fighting this one.

Samus 65:35
She plays like us but without a good ground or air game...

Shiek 65:35
She is fast but we have a better air game and I think our ground game is as good as hers but hers just feels slightly better. Her recovery is punishable which makes it easier to fight against.

Snake 30:70 (F-ing Snake)
I don't want to talk about this

Sonic 70:30
No ranged attack really hurts this little guy and just about all of our attacks our prioritize him. This should be an easy match up.

TL 50:50
This comes down to player skill. I really feel this way. His air game is really good his ground game is one to rival it and he can spam projectiles better the just about everyone else.
Wario 65:35 (We have a superior air game)

Wolf 55:45
See Falco

Yoshi 65:35
We have a good Yoshi player in our area and it just doesn't seem like Yoshi has a good enough game against us. Watch out for his grab game. It got a lot better since Melee.

Zelda 40:60
She has insane priority. Can keep you at by with Din Fire, and if you get close her Up Tilt sends you flying. Don't get hit by her Forward or Back Air. They will kill you if sweat-spotted early on.

ZSS ??:?? (No one plays her enough)

I was going through your list one by one Angelo but it's just too much to do at once. I disagree with a lot of what you said =S Expesially the Lucario matchup, Lucario can't win either! =P

Here's an idea. A lot of other character's matchup threads have adopted a one character at a time idea. Basically Jeepy would say "This week we talk about ____" and for that week, we only discuss that matchup. From there Jeepy would gather the general consensus and we'd move on.

I think we should start from the left and go right, beginning with Mario. =o

Basically agree with what OneWingedAngel posted.

I'd put Falco at 50:50. It's a huge task to gimp a Falco, provided he spaces himself correctly and doesn't get chained off the stage. He can outcamp you, and he has a quicker moveset all around than Lucario does. His kill moves are predictable though so you should live long enough to put some hurt on him.

I'd actually put Lucas at 40:60. He kills very early on. PSI magnet. Manueverable recovery. There's actually nothing I can really think of to put this match in Lucario's favor, but I'll keep it at 40:60 as to not stir a huge debate on it.

MK 50:50. You can zone him pretty well. If you play super defensive, you can live a long life in this match.

Snake 50:50. Why do people have such a problem with him? You're forcing a slow, big target to approach you. His recovery gets eaten by full AS and bair and, basically killing him. He kills at low percents, but you can be just as gay as he is and play keepaway. Also forcepalm chain.

Sounds like a plan. I didn't expect to have people agree with everything I said... just throwing in my 2cents on all the characters before anything got heated...

So who should we talk about first.

It would almost seem neater if we had the character discussions in their own thread and the data from those threads were compiled in a master thread (which would be stickied) So that people don't have to read through 13234 pages just to find out info on who they wanted.

Infi-tan said:

I think we should start from the left and go right, beginning with Mario. =o

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Sounds good but I would have to sit this one out.. No one plays him over here for me to have a good input on... all I know is what I see on lvl 9 comps..

Alright, so I guess we'll start with Mario:

Like OneWingedAngelo, I haven't really played any real good Marios, but, to start off the discussion, I'll list some advantages/disagvantages.

Off the top of my head, against Lucario, Mario has:

+ Good, spammable projectile.
+ Can easily reflect AS.
+ Can gimp our ES. (Cape/F.L.U.D.D.)
+ Good "off the stage" game.
+ Can spike.
+ Super quick aerials.

- Priority not-so-great
- A whiffed F.L.U.D.D. punishable
- Not too many killing moves (f-smash, f-air)
- Fatal addiction to shrooms
- Gimpable recovery
- Out-ranged in comparison to Lucario



Again, I don't know too much about Mario, but this is more to get the discussion going.

One thing I have noticed while playing my housemate is that his Up B has priority on you VS most of your things...

With his cape being one way Mario gets back on the stage (this might be incorrect I Mained him In Melee and it was one of our greatest recoveries) trying to gimp his recovery might be tough since he will throw you in the other direction.

Fear his Up Taunt... Fighting Mario is enough... no need to fight Giga Mario ^_^;

I don't have a lot of experience against Mario. Your range is pretty fearsome against a Mario, I'd assume. His bair seems to win out against Lucario's fair a lot, though. Perhaps I'm not spacing myself well, or the bair is just a pain to go up against. His uair/nair/fair are screwed pretty well by your respective counters on them. Recovery is..easy..to gimp lol. His kill moves are pretty easy to read. They seem to have no trouble landing the fsmash though. Dunno why, for a linear kill move it seems to get landed pretty consistantly.

Only info I can really give on him. ...Fireballs work well for him.

Mario does pose some threat to Lucario

Mario: Quick, strong, good aerials, rather unique specials.
Lucario: Range, disjointed hitboxes, good aerials, WoP

If an aggressive Mario can breach your spacing on the ground, he'll start gaining an advantage fast racking up damage with his tilts and knocking you back (rather far) with his smashes. In the air Mario is ridiculously quick. He'll either combo you with uair and dair or knock you away with bair/fair. His upB seems to go through just about everything, but that may be because it starts extremely fast. His cape will turn ES the wrong way and turn your AS back on you.

BAS will cancel out fireballs (dunno bout %'s here)
AS will go through fireballs

Now, Lucario can easily outrange Mario 90% of the time. If Lucario plays smart, he should keep Mario at about ftilt distance where Mario is harmless. If Mario gets close, shieldgrab is best. Mario's recovery is worse then it was in Melee. Since Mario seems to have been made the 'average' his weight and floateyness is 'average' meaning he's perfect to WoP. Since he'll only have at most a 2nd jump and an upB at after a WoP, it doesn't leave him much choice but to die.

In the end, I think Lucario can win this matchup more often then Mario will. When spaced right Mario wont be able to get close enough to hit Lucario. In the air Lucario's disjointed hitboxes will hit before Mario's fist or feet and off the stage Lucario will absolutely **** Mario so long as you watch out for the cape.

Mamma Mia! ( I just had too)

Mario is a close call.
He's not played a lot here (as in the people in the lucario threads) so we know some knowledge.

What I can say, from experience and playing him. That he's average. Which is a problem for a Lucario player. We, those who play lucario, like to punish people that think they are so special, because they are. Like that MK for example and the infamous B. Spot dodge and U-air the sucker.
For mario, he's not special. He's average, with average about everything.
He can counter moves (Side-b), he can make himself heavier (Down-B) and has a wicked Up-smash that will destroy a Floaty character.
Thats 3 notches against Lucario.
But we can get back at him. With two or three little things.
They are, combos (Lucario's full of them), Aura boost, and range.

Stay at a medium range with Mario. Any further, and you'll have to resort to AS, which will then be returned express mail. Too close and taste his brown shoes.
At a medium range, you can still hit him, and counter majority of his arsenal. Lucarios F-smash will hit, his Force palm will hit, move up a bit and F-tilt. Fireball problem? RDT, and follow up by charging a AS on him. Then get him off the stage, and kick your self to victory.
In the air, watch out for his Up-B, Uair and Sair. Heck just watch out for all his air attacks. They are all good, but they lack range.
Ding! Lucario has range, use it!

After a while, lucario will have taken some hits. Then fight fire with blue fire. You will out prioritize most of Marios moves. Meaning you hit first. Meaning you hit first with a stronger attack. Meaning...he just took a face full of aura. Aura boost, its a god-send.

And combos, If you don't know any combos with Lucario, head over to Milin's thread RIGHT NOW. (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167767). Combo's will rid you of Mario. Oh did mario just cape you AS? Well, RDT that rogue AS and start you RDT+AS charge+f-grab+Fair+Fair+AS=KO. Mario won't be able to to a thing. And if mario is trying to make it back to the stage. Go D-air him for having such a crappy up-b.

A good Mario is a toughy, but with proper placement, and guarding you should have your self a good Brawl.
-t2

Lucario does hold the advantage in the matchup vs. Mario, but this one is closer than many other matchups.

tedward2000 said:

. Oh did mario just cape you AS? Well, RDT that rogue AS

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To actually do that you'd have to be quite close to Mario, and I'm almost positive you'd get hit by the AS before you could start up a double team, thanks to afterlag of aurasphere :\

Timbers said:

To actually do that you'd have to be quite close to Mario, and I'm almost positive you'd get hit by the AS before you could start up a double team, thanks to afterlag of aurasphere :\

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Actually you'd have to be far away. Your right, kinda, too close and because of the AS lag, it will hit. But if your a good distance away and time the AS, you can RDT. A normal DT wont do you any good.
-t1

tedward2000 said:

Actually you'd have to be far away. Your right, kinda, too close and because of the AS lag, it will hit. But if your a good distance away and time the AS, you can RDT. A normal DT wont do you any good.
-t1

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Well I meant even with the RDT. You only gain about 3-4 Lucario lengths in a RDT.

I agree with everything else posted though.

Timbers said:

Well I meant even with the RDT. You only gain about 3-4 Lucario lengths in a RDT.

I agree with everything else posted though.

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Which puts you in front of mario, at either medium range, or too close range.
So RDT'ing a AS isn't the best of ideas, but you catch my drift. Chain and combo.
-t2

Hmmmm Mario. Starting off, I would say that it's definitely between advantage and neutral.

Anyway. As far the the ground game is concerned, Lucario has range on most everything and he can exploit it. Mario has a slight bit of speed on his side but not enough that would justify the amount of range that Lucario can use on him. Range being concerned, you don't want to be too close (for obvious reasons), and at the same time, if you're too far away, his cape will reflect aura spheres. There is a sweet spot range where you can use your advantage and keep him away while both avoiding spheres and his melee attacks. Other than this, not much too it. He's average and therefore doesn't have many weaknesses that Lucario can exploit. At the same time, he doesn't have any big advantages that would give us a reason or need to exploit specific weaknesses.

In the air, lucario trumps mario no question. The aerial range, speed and combo potential that Lucario has allows him to both gimp and protect himself against edge guarding better. Mario's recovery sucks and Lucario's gimping game is good. Put 2 and 2 together and you have a mario that's too far away to recover.


After looking it all over, I would probably give this one to lucario. Mario doesn't have much that would stop lucario from simply abusing his range and aerial supremacy and taking the match. Mario isn't able to kill early enough to stop Lucario from gaining aura power. At the same time, lucario can gimp Mario to score some easy kills. Either way, it goes for Lucario.

I would say 6/4, maybe 6.5/3.5 if you want to get technical...either way, a point for Lucario.

Kasai said:

Hmmmm Mario. Starting off, I would say that it's definitely between advantage and neutral.

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Honestly, Advantage/Neurtal/Disadvantage may be too vague. 5 categories may be appropriate Jeepy.

I like to think I'm a pretty good Yoshi player (i've been told at least *shrugs*). Ness too so I think I'll offer my opinion on those two.

Yoshi I give a 25:75 or 20:80 in lucario's favor, Lucario is my absolute least favorite character to fight, I get most of my kills from yoshi's awesome Uair and most other character's have trouble dealing with that attack coupled with "super armor", but in almost every case (a few times at LOW percents this didn't happen) Lucario's Dair will just shread through yoshi's armor and Uair making it nearly impossible to land this move. So if a yoshi's coming up at you just Dair and you should be fine, be careful if he's not coming at you from directly below cause me may be going for an unsweetspotted Fair if they're smart. But yeah yoshi's easiest to land kill move in the match is worthless so you don't have too much to worry about, although it's not a guaranteed win of course.

Ness. I'd give Lucario a very slight disadvantage to ness in this one. Like 45:55. Mostly because Ness has a really good aerial game, which i'm sure alot of lucario's like to fight in the air, so this might put you at a disadvantage up there. Ness can also absord your aura sphere, so this move will only hit if you're like 5 feet away from him since the sphere is pretty slow (so is the psmagnet to come up though). You also can't keep taking hits too far past 100 (lucario actually gets power as you all know) but at about 120, if you get grabbed by Ness it's all over because that ridiculous Bthrow will kill you pretty easily (if his back is to the edge, if he's facing the edge don't worry until 130 then you're pretty much dead no matter what, this goes for almost any character too so yeah)

djbrowny said:

diddy has the lowest KO potential in the game... everyone has better smashes except samus, but her dtilt does fine.

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Ummm...no. He is better at KOing than sonic, shiek, and pit, just to name a few. He also has one of the best spikes in the game, and a great recovery to use it with.