Pokedex Entry 1: Pokemon Trainer

As most of you have noticed, the PT chart has sort of come to a standstill. We now have an entry for each character in the game, but there is very little discussion and not many matchups have been changed since their original inclusion. I fear that a lot of these entries are off because some of the reasoning behind them doesn't explore all of the match up. Solution? Character in focus!

Here's the deal. Every week, a majority of users will decide what character to focus on. This way everyone involved will be focusing on the same thing. We can compare experiences, theorycraft, etc. A part of this project will be making a thread in that character's own discussion board to get input from the other side of the match up (unless it's PT haha). This way, we'll have as much input as possible. In fact, we could even set up some matches of us vs. them to compare and get some real information on who has the advantage!

This is simply a way of revitalizing the Type Chart and getting some new input. You may still discuss the type chart in its original thread here!

Now, who will be our first target? Any favorites? Any character you have trouble fighting? Unfortunately I can't make a poll but I'll just tally the votes or hope that most everyone can agree on someone.

I, for one, want to do Pokemon Trainer (thanks to Retro Gaming for the suggestion). We are all most knowledgeable about him after all! Plus, how can we expect to analyze other characters if we can't even accurately analyze our own character?

I'm still not sure if I'll use this as the 'home thread' for Character in Focus or will just link to each discussion from the original Chart Thread...what do you all think? It's really just a more in depth look at each character. I'm leaning toward Chart Thread.

Conclusion

Ivysaur is x4 effective against Squirtle.
Squirtle and Charizard are neutral.
Charizard is x2 effective against Ivysaur.

Squirtle vs. Ivysaur

Retro Gaming

Squirtle vs Ivysaur- Fairly obvious. Squirtle's small range is no match for Ivysaur's amazing spacing game. Ivysaur's Ftilt and Bair create a wall that is very difficult to get inside. However, in Squirtle's favor, he has a weakness to grass attacks, which effectively renders Bullet Seed almost completely useless. It is for this reason that Squirtle is more capable than any other character to approach Ivysaur from directly above. However, Ivysaur is still capable of keeping this area clear with Utilt and by shielding Squirtle's attempt at any sort of approach.

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Ivysaur vs. Charizard

Retro Gaming

Ivysaur vs Charizard- First the obvious: Charizard is capable of killing Ivysaur much sooner than normal. In his favor, he also has the capability of edge-guarding Ivysaur increasingly well with his multiple jumps and fire-based aerials. However, Ivysaur is not completely undone. Although Ivysaur's Usmash and Uair are grass-based moves, its Fsmash is still capable of killing Charizard at normal percentages. In addition, it is made more difficult for Charizard to escape from Bullet Seed, as the knock-back is decreased. In the same vein, Ivysaur has a very easy time escaping from Charizard's Flamethrower. As long as Ivysaur is careful of the fire based attacks (Which any competent PT should be able to recognize if they themselves know how to use Charizard), then the match is not so tipped in Charizard's favor. Charizard has a slight advantage at best, considering Ivysaur retains its spacing game, which will keep it away from Charizard's grab.

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Fearmy

Squirtle Vs Zard: ok firstly squirtle kicks Zard hard in the air. that should probably make zard think twice about trying to spike you or gimp you. squirtle can VERY easily combo charizard, and with the gimping against the 2 air jumps, it means more damage to charizard. Hydroplane works wonders against charizard, and D smash works well when Ledge guarding. what you Do need to look out for is zard's smashes, that can eaisly send you flying to your death, most notably F-smash. U smash will kill you around the low 80's i think. flamethrower will not do much as long as you are stupid to keep DI into it, just DI out of it and you won't take that much damage, charizard gets comboded to the death by squirtle, it's hard to even land a move on this guy.

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Fearmy

ivysaur vs charizard: you claim that zard has trouble with the damage done by bullet seed right? well zard has something more dangerous, a F-throw followed up by a F-air and hugging the ledge = instant death for ivysaur, it really depends where ivysaur is standing and since ivysaur usually should be in the middle, it's decent enough space to pull this off at around 30%? 1 killing move isn't enough because it will become very,very predictable, because when the ivysaur is feeling harassed, they will constaly try to spam a killing move just to kill you simply because they don't to lose, now if you know what move they are going to do, how long it takes, and where they will do it, it will become a cake walk.

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A differing opinion in favor of Ivysaur:

Superhacker75mil

Now, as far as Ivysaur/Charizard is concerned, I disagree with the neutrality on the same "best game" principle. Edge-hogging Ivysaur is easy if Ivysaur's already close to the screen boundary to begin with, but you can only safely go for a 'Zard f-air or b-air if Ivy hasn't used his double jump...otherwise his f-air's range and deceptiveness can counterattack and keep him alive (Ivysaur's slightly floatier than Charizard, too). F-airs and Razor Leaf help prevent instant edge-hoggers, and up-air is fantastic if you've just fallen off the ledge and have a Charizard trying to burn you from above (as long as you still have your double jump), because you can still Vine Whip if you do it immediately when you recover from up-air. Charizard does have two extra jumps to work with out there, but you only have time for roughly two attempts at a good off-edge attack. Besides, worst case scenario? Ivy can predict the edge game, and immediately fast-fall beneath Charizard's approach with an air-dodge, grappling with Vine Whip while 'Zard is still off-stage.

As far as on the stage is concerned, Ivy has too much protection for Charizard to get close easily. Charizard's only hope is a careful approach followed by a grab into an up-throw (unless it's time to take Ivy off-stage)...because being above Charizard is just as dangerous as being above Ivysaur, thanks to up-smash and up-tilt. Even when Charizard is close, spot-dodging a grab and Bullet Seeding just OWNS Charizard, and if you're worried about him spot-dodging, then just do a neutral-air. I've already gone over how great Ivy's neutral-air is for his close-in game, and it's especially important because it brings horizontal distance back into the game, which means Ivysaur can either go back to camping again or start pressuring with b-airs, f-smash, and d-tilt.

Charizard functions best at mid/mid-close ranges, and all his moves work to either capitalize on this or to assist him in getting there (shield-cancel dash/shieldgrab, hyphen smash, Flamethrower, d-smash, f-tilt, d-tilt, Rock Smash). Good Ivy's counter this until it's time for them to get mid-close, or close if necessary (n-air, Bullet Seed for extra damage in fatigue).

Basically? This really isn't neutral. Although Charizard is adaptable offensively and defensively, he's just too big a target for Razor Leaf and Bullet Seed, so unless Ivysaur ends up above Charizard, Ivysaur should be able to avoid the big hits while camping and occasionally closing enough for an f-smash. Vine Whip's good for keeping Zard's occasional air approaches minimized. SLIGHT ADVANTAGE - IVYSAUR.

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Charizard vs. Squirtle

Retro Gaming

Charizard vs Squirtle- Squirtle kills Charizard much faster with Usmash most noticeably, and Squirtle is capable of running circles around Charizard. However, Squirtle's prime method of attacking is with its short-ranged aerial attacks, and this exposes the tiny turtle to Charizard's enormous grab range. While Squirtle will resist Charizard's fire-based moves, Squirtle is still a very light character that can easily be killed by Usmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Utilt, or Rock Smash. Again, a defensive style with Charizard gives this match some form of neutrality, in my opinion.

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Superhacker75mil

Basically, we're making these claims on the assumptions that both characters are playing the best tactics available to them that we know...given that, it's hard to see how the Squirtle/Charizard match-up is anything but neutral. Although a ninja in the air and a ninja with shellshifting, Squirtle will still have problems on approach against a defensive Charizard. Shield-grabbing is godly in this game, and Charizard is one of the best in the field. Squirtle's good at it too, but he's nothing to 'Zard, and that makes it even worse for Squirtle, since his d-throw is crucial for kills, and his others help setup aerials. 'Zard's super-deceptive d-smash is also great at stopping approaches, though it's hard to hit a Squirtle with given how often they're in the air. Great for a whiffed d-tilt, though.

What makes things neutral is that Squirtle is just too good with mindgames and speed, and he'll be able to capitalize more on Charizard's mistakes at the beginning than the other way around. The up-smash was mentioned as a killer, and it certainly is when you can land it. A shellshifted d-smash has water properties too, and could be a great alternate killer if they're expecting up-smash instead. Getting inside and landing some up-tilts does sweet, quick damage at the beginning.

In the end, it's a matter of how long each Pokémon is out. Squirtle can own the beginning, but he will succumb to Charizard after fatigue. NEUTRAL.

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Steeler's three cents:

This is probably the most complex ditto match in all of Smash. Three different characters at your disposal, each with different abilities...in the grand scheme of it all, it's really Pokemon Trainer vs. Pokemon Trainer, and neutral.

However, individually, we have three separate sets of match ups.

Squirtle vs. Ivysaur is quite clearly in Ivysaur's favor. Squirtle will not enjoy trying to approach Ivysaur's range and power, nor will Squirtle enjoy a constant barrage of Razor Leaf when it backs off. For this reason, Shellshifting and the mindgames that come with it will be quite ineffective. Ivysaur's Bair will just eat away at Squirtle all day and Squirtle lacks anything to effective counter it. When Ivysaur decides to go for the kill, any of its grass based attacks are strengthened by Squirtle's type weakness, therefore making the already very light Squirtle even more fragile than before. This match up has little to dispute.

Squirtle vs. Charizard is quite a bit more balanced. I strongly agree with Superhacker up above, when both are fresh, Squirtle will quite handily take advantage of any mistake Zard makes and can string together a quick flurry of attacks to punish. Squirtle also has a super effective Usmash and Dsmash to work with. But a smart, defensive Charizard will give Squirtle trouble. Both Superhacker and Retro Gaming agree that Zard's amazing grab range makes shieldgrabbing a very effective tool to use against Squirtle. Squirtle will be hard pressed to get an attack in without getting grabbed. Mindgames are very important to Squirtle here, to let him sneak some blows in. Our analysists concluded the match up was neutral. Here, the best player will likely win out.

Ivysaur vs. Charizard...phew. We had opinions go both ways on this one. Ivysaur basically has to focus intently on correctly outspacing Charizard to have a fighting chance. Razor Leaf is always a help and Bullet Seeding will rack up a ton of damage. Ivysaur likely has Zard beat on the ground, but Zard has a great advantage in the air and offstage. Zard has little trouble gimping Ivy with a super effective fair and multiple jumps to work with. In my opinion, this match up boils down to the edgeguarding game. If Charizard can't effectively edgehog every chance he gets, Ivysaur will simply keep racking up damage with BS, Leaf spam, and it's best spacing moves. Charizard isn't completely beat on the ground however, Flamethrower and Rock Smash come in handy for approaches (as always) and ftilt and dtilt do have some good range to them, just not as good as a few of Ivy's moves. Finally, Charizard will have an easier time of killing due to Ivy's fire weakness and Zard's overall power. Even if Zard doesn't KO, Ivy may be sent far enough to get edgehogged to death.

Really just spitting back what a lot of you said, in condensed form.

NOW LET'S MOVE ON TO METAKNIGHT BABY.

Indeed, we start with the PT, and just go down the whole list.

As for where we actually discuss it, don't matter to me.

Yeah, just keep this thing updated, lol - unlike that piece of trash on top of this board. We should keep the original discussions, but we should look them over as well, and not just take it for what it says.

People have to main P. Trainer/other character, not a confirmed noob, and plays against a realistic opponent (high level cpus have super reactions, so they can't really work).

P.S., I doubt I fit the classification as a noob, because I beat the **** out of my friends who would be considered noobs despite gang up, and having to change to a character I'm not used to after every victory (friends don't have Brawl).

Lol, I don't know what to consider myself as.

Well Pokemon Trainer/Toon Link are my main characters, and I don't believe I'm a noob. Even though people say "LOL Wi-Fi" I did win that small Pokemon Trainer only tournament, and the people I faced can vouch for me.

But this sounds like an awesome project, I'd love to get involved. Starting out with Pokemon Trainer himself isn't a bad idea.

Would like to help right now.... but i don't play any other PTs.... I'll keep checking in on this thread when we get to a match up that i know

Contrary to the chart at the top of this forum, I believe that the PT goes something like this:

Ivysaur > Squirtle
Ivysaur = Charizard
Charizard = Squirtle

I've changed it a little bit since my last mention of it, but I've been swayed a little bit.

Squirtle vs Ivysaur- Fairly obvious. Squirtle's small range is no match for Ivysaur's amazing spacing game. Ivysaur's Ftilt and Bair create a wall that is very difficult to get inside. However, in Squirtle's favor, he has a weakness to grass attacks, which effectively renders Bullet Seed almost completely useless. It is for this reason that Squirtle is more capable than any other character to approach Ivysaur from directly above. However, Ivysaur is still capable of keeping this area clear with Utilt and by shielding Squirtle's attempt at any sort of approach.

Ivysaur vs Charizard- First the obvious: Charizard is capable of killing Ivysaur much sooner than normal. In his favor, he also has the capability of edge-guarding Ivysaur increasingly well with his multiple jumps and fire-based aerials. However, Ivysaur is not completely undone. Although Ivysaur's Usmash and Uair are grass-based moves, its Fsmash is still capable of killing Charizard at normal percentages. In addition, it is made more difficult for Charizard to escape from Bullet Seed, as the knock-back is decreased. In the same vein, Ivysaur has a very easy time escaping from Charizard's Flamethrower. As long as Ivysaur is careful of the fire based attacks (Which any competent PT should be able to recognize if they themselves know how to use Charizard), then the match is not so tipped in Charizard's favor. Charizard has a slight advantage at best, considering Ivysaur retains its spacing game, which will keep it away from Charizard's grab.

Charizard vs Squirtle- Squirtle kills Charizard much faster with Usmash most noticeably, and Squirtle is capable of running circles around Charizard. However, Squirtle's prime method of attacking is with its short-ranged aerial attacks, and this exposes the tiny turtle to Charizard's enormous grab range. While Squirtle will resist Charizard's fire-based moves, Squirtle is still a very light character that can easily be killed by Usmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Utilt, or Rock Smash. Again, a defensive style with Charizard gives this match some form of neutrality, in my opinion.

no tourney experience = noob

Retro Gaming said:

Contrary to the chart at the top of this forum, I believe that the PT goes something like this:

Ivysaur > Squirtle
Ivysaur = Charizard
Charizard = Squirtle

I've changed it a little bit since my last mention of it, but I've been swayed a little bit.

Squirtle vs Ivysaur- Fairly obvious. Squirtle's small range is no match for Ivysaur's amazing spacing game. Ivysaur's Ftilt and Bair create a wall that is very difficult to get inside. However, in Squirtle's favor, he has a weakness to grass attacks, which effectively renders Bullet Seed almost completely useless. It is for this reason that Squirtle is more capable than any other character equip Ivysaur from directly above. However, Ivysaur is still capable of keeping this area clear with Utilt and by shielding Squirtle's attempt at any sort of approach.

Ivysaur vs Charizard- First the obvious: Charizard is capable of killing Ivysaur much sooner than normal. In his favor, he also has the capability of edge-guarding Ivysaur increasingly well with his multiple jumps and fire-based aerials. However, Ivysaur is not completely undone. Although Ivysaur's Usmash and Uair are grass-based moves, its Fsmash is still capable of killing Charizard at normal percentages. In addition, it is made more difficult for Charizard to escape from Bullet Seed, as the knock-back is decreased. In the same vain, Ivysaur has a very easy time escaping from Charizard's Flamethrower. As long as Ivysaur is careful of the fire based attacks (Which any competent PT should be able to recognize if they themselves know how to use Charizard), then the match is not so tipped in Charizard's favor. Charizard has a slight advantage at best, considering Ivysaur retains its spacing game, which will keep it away from Charizard's grab.

Charizard vs Squirtle- Squirtle kills Charizard much faster with Usmash most noticeably, and Squirtle is capable of running circles around Charizard. However, Squirtle's prime method of attacking is with its short-ranged aerial attacks, and this exposes the tiny turtle to Charizard's enormous grab range. While Squirtle will resist Charizard's fire-based moves, Squirtle is still a very light character that can easily be killed by Usmash, Dsmash, Dtilt, Utilt, or Rock Smash. Again, a defensive style with Charizard gives this match some form of neutrality, in my opinion.

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This is why I respect you Retro Gaming.

I think im not a noob, i have had experience in some melle tournaments(never champion) but any for wii, so i have no experience with PT in tournaments. I think that against other PT it should stay as it was, because the elemental weaknesses-resistances and ivy's range>squirtle, squirtle's speed>charizard, and charizard's power>ivysaur. I know retro gaming arguments, and i think they are good, but not valid enought to make a neutral match between ivy-zard or zard-squirtle, but i may be wrong. Also, are we gonna have the supereffective-neutral-notveryeffective clasification or a deeper one( for example, from 1 to 10 advantage with the current pokemon)??

ama(m/t) said:

no tourney experience = noob

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Who 'ya talking about?

i don't think he was talking to anyone in particular.

anyway, i COMPLETELY agree with the squirtle/ivysaur analysis and i doubt anyone will disagree with it.

i'm not sure on the other two though. i always thought squirtle had a pretty easy time of juggling charizard...but then again, even with the type resistance, charizard can kill squirtle before it even reaches 100%...and as long as it stays away from usmash/hydroplaning, zard should be able to live for quite a while.

Steeler36 from Nintendo NSider! said:

i don't think he was talking to anyone in particular.

anyway, i COMPLETELY agree with the squirtle/ivysaur analysis and i doubt anyone will disagree with it.

i'm not sure on the other two though. i always thought squirtle had a pretty easy time of juggling charizard...but then again, even with the type resistance, charizard can kill squirtle before it even reaches 100%...and as long as it stays away from usmash/hydroplaning, zard should be able to live for quite a while.

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That's why I feel like that. I really have mixed feelings about Ivysaur and 'Zard, though. Sometimes it seems like one completely beats the other, and then the next time it reverses. I'd wait for some more input.

Juggling Charizard would be hard, in my opinion. You'd have to get a hit in, and Charizard has amazing shield grab potential. Charizard can shield and grab, and Squirtle really can't do anything about it. The only way to get around that would be for Charizard to get grabbed in return, but Charizard has the advantage in range, there. Of course, should Squirtle get Charizard airborne, Squirtle has the clear advantage, no doubt. But Charizard's ground and defensive game far outshine Squirtle's poor range. I still feel this is neutral.

I can see no flaw in Retro Gaming's explanation of the PT Matchups.


Also, though it doesn't apply to this matchup here, we should also be looking at the best stages to Counterpick when facing against characters.


The geographical advantage is a very big advantage.

ivysaur vs charizard: you claim that zard has trouble with the damage done by bullet seed right? well zard has something more dangerous, a F-throw followed up by a F-air and hugging the ledge = instant death for ivysaur, it really depends where ivysaur is standing and since ivysaur usually should be in the middle, it's decent enough space to pull this off at around 30%? 1 killing move isn't enough because it will become very,very predictable, because when the ivysaur is feeling harassed, they will constaly try to spam a killing move just to kill you simply because they don't to lose, now if you know what move they are going to do, how long it takes, and where they will do it, it will become a cake walk.

Squirtle Vs Zard: ok firstly squirtle kicks Zard hard in the air. that should probably make zard think twice about trying to spike you or gimp you. squirtle can VERY easily combo charizard, and with the gimping against the 2 air jumps, it means more damage to charizard. Hydroplane works wonders against charizard, and D smash works well when Ledge guarding. what you Do need to look out for is zard's smashes, that can eaisly send you flying to your death, most notably F-smash. U smash will kill you around the low 80's i think. flamethrower will not do much as long as you are stupid to keep DI into it, just DI out of it and you won't take that much damage, charizard gets comboded to the death by squirtle, it's hard to even land a move on this guy.

This is my opinion

Fearmy said:

ivysaur vs charizard: you claim that zard has trouble with the damage done by bullet seed right? well zard has something more dangerous, a F-throw followed up by a F-air and hugging the ledge = instant death for ivysaur, it really depends where ivysaur is standing and since ivysaur usually should be in the middle, it's decent enough space to pull this off at around 30%? 1 killing move isn't enough because it will become very,very predictable, because when the ivysaur is feeling harassed, they will constaly try to spam a killing move just to kill you simply because they don't to lose, now if you know what move they are going to do, how long it takes, and where they will do it, it will
become a cake walk.

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Ivysaur's Bthrow will still kill Charizard normally as well, and, although not as powerful as either of the other two Pokemon's Dthrow, you have access to a "more powerful" Bullet Seed to get you there. Ivysaur really shouldn't feel harrassed. It's spacing game is larger than Charizard's, and it can stay out of range of its grab. Of course Charizard will absolutely demolish Ivysaur off the stage, but on land Ivysaur is neutral. This is, as I said, a slight advantage, at best.

Fearmy said:

Squirtle Vs Zard: ok firstly squirtle kicks Zard hard in the air. that should probably make zard think twice about trying to spike you or gimp you. squirtle can VERY easily combo charizard, and with the gimping against the 2 air jumps, it means more damage to charizard. Hydroplane works wonders against charizard, and D smash works well when Ledge guarding. what you Do need to look out for is zard's smashes, that can eaisly send you flying to your death, most notably F-smash. U smash will kill you around the low 80's i think. flamethrower will not do much as long as you are stupid to keep DI into it, just DI out of it and you won't take that much damage, charizard gets comboded to the death by squirtle, it's hard to even land a move on this guy.

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The only thing is I don't see how Squirtle will even begin to set up this air juggle. Shield grabbing with Charizard's amazing range versus Squirtle's poor aerial range means Charizard is going to win out. You absolutely can not grab Charizard, since he can do it before you can. Squirtle only has so many moves that get an advantage versus 'Zard (Dsmash, Usmash) that it becomes exclusively obvious what Squirtle will try to do with Usmash. Regardless, you just shield grab it, anyway. Obviously, if Squirtle gets Charizard in the air Charizard is going to take heavy damage. However, Charizard is well equiped to keep Squirtle from doing that.

For situations like htis one is that i think we shall make more than just three categories of matchup, how about five? big disadvantage, slight disadvantage, neutral, slight advantage and great advantage. That way i think we can analyse better each matchup. In this case, it would be:
Squirlte vs Ivysaur: Big disadvantage
Ivysaur vs Charizard: Slight disadvantage
Charizard vs Squirtle: Slight disadvantage

That is, the x2 and x4 weaknesses and resistances found in Pokemon games. Although, I still think Squirtle and Charizard are neutral.

Does these advantages and disadvantages even exist? could this be all relative? could we be wrong? Hey, it is a better scenario than we ourselves are virtual.

Basically, we're making these claims on the assumptions that both characters are playing the best tactics available to them that we know...given that, it's hard to see how the Squirtle/Charizard match-up is anything but neutral. Although a ninja in the air and a ninja with shellshifting, Squirtle will still have problems on approach against a defensive Charizard. Shield-grabbing is godly in this game, and Charizard is one of the best in the field. Squirtle's good at it too, but he's nothing to 'Zard, and that makes it even worse for Squirtle, since his d-throw is crucial for kills, and his others help setup aerials. 'Zard's super-deceptive d-smash is also great at stopping approaches, though it's hard to hit a Squirtle with given how often they're in the air. Great for a whiffed d-tilt, though.

What makes things neutral is that Squirtle is just too good with mindgames and speed, and he'll be able to capitalize more on Charizard's mistakes at the beginning than the other way around. The up-smash was mentioned as a killer, and it certainly is when you can land it. A shellshifted d-smash has water properties too, and could be a great alternate killer if they're expecting up-smash instead. Getting inside and landing some up-tilts does sweet, quick damage at the beginning.

In the end, it's a matter of how long each Pokémon is out. Squirtle can own the beginning, but he will succumb to Charizard after fatigue. NEUTRAL.

Now, as far as Ivysaur/Charizard is concerned, I disagree with the neutrality on the same "best game" principle. Edge-hogging Ivysaur is easy if Ivysaur's already close to the screen boundary to begin with, but you can only safely go for a 'Zard f-air or b-air if Ivy hasn't used his double jump...otherwise his f-air's range and deceptiveness can counterattack and keep him alive (Ivysaur's slightly floatier than Charizard, too). F-airs and Razor Leaf help prevent instant edge-hoggers, and up-air is fantastic if you've just fallen off the ledge and have a Charizard trying to burn you from above (as long as you still have your double jump), because you can still Vine Whip if you do it immediately when you recover from up-air. Charizard does have two extra jumps to work with out there, but you only have time for roughly two attempts at a good off-edge attack. Besides, worst case scenario? Ivy can predict the edge game, and immediately fast-fall beneath Charizard's approach with an air-dodge, grappling with Vine Whip while 'Zard is still off-stage.

As far as on the stage is concerned, Ivy has too much protection for Charizard to get close easily. Charizard's only hope is a careful approach followed by a grab into an up-throw (unless it's time to take Ivy off-stage)...because being above Charizard is just as dangerous as being above Ivysaur, thanks to up-smash and up-tilt. Even when Charizard is close, spot-dodging a grab and Bullet Seeding just OWNS Charizard, and if you're worried about him spot-dodging, then just do a neutral-air. I've already gone over how great Ivy's neutral-air is for his close-in game, and it's especially important because it brings horizontal distance back into the game, which means Ivysaur can either go back to camping again or start pressuring with b-airs, f-smash, and d-tilt.

Charizard functions best at mid/mid-close ranges, and all his moves work to either capitalize on this or to assist him in getting there (shield-cancel dash/shieldgrab, hyphen smash, Flamethrower, d-smash, f-tilt, d-tilt, Rock Smash). Good Ivy's counter this until it's time for them to get mid-close, or close if necessary (n-air, Bullet Seed for extra damage in fatigue).

Basically? This really isn't neutral. Although Charizard is adaptable offensively and defensively, he's just too big a target for Razor Leaf and Bullet Seed, so unless Ivysaur ends up above Charizard, Ivysaur should be able to avoid the big hits while camping and occasionally closing enough for an f-smash. Vine Whip's good for keeping Zard's occasional air approaches minimized. SLIGHT ADVANTAGE - IVYSAUR.

Stages should be talked about too, like someone suggested. Popular counterpick stages like Luigi's Mansion, Castle Siege, Delfino Square, Frigate Orpheon can make huge differences in these match-ups, and even the "neutral" stages offer certain advantages in certain ways.

Why does nobody post here anymore??? I suggest to agree onve for all in the PT vs PT matchup, and moving to the next character

alright, so...

ivysaur>squirtle (x4 advantage?)
squirtle=charizard
ivysaur>charizard?

can we all somewhat agree on this and move on? in which case, who would we like to cover next?

Well, I play PT dittos with Retro a lot (I'm better at the character on the whole, but the dittos are fairly even. Anyway, not the point), and I have to say that the match up is just weird. Whenever I possibly can, I try to avoid ditto situations (unless it's a Charizard ditto, then I can go to town). So, you could say we've explored the match ups quite thoroughly.

I'd have to agree with Retro's analysis of the match up, as good Superhacker's is.

At any rate, I'd like to tackle Meta Knight next. I'm actually quite well versed in it, and I have to say it's not too bad a match up. Obviously, I'm looking for the opportunity to explain why.

metaknight is the reason why i picked up gw as my second, so i'd be very interested in what you have to say elliot.

i think ivy/zard is pretty even, simply because ivy at most has a slight advantage on the ground but in the air/off stage a good charizard will usually be able to kill no matter what percent ivy is at, with fairs and edge guarding. i think that at LEAST makes up for ivy's ground game. barring any bullet seeds, zard will live a while longer than ivy with his mass and resistance to some of ivy's attacks, particularly fair.

i think that's the only contested match up.

I think this:

Squirtle<<Ivysaur
Ivysaur<Charizard
Charizard=Squirtle

If only for the fact that Charizard is one of those few characters that can dash into a Bair, shield it, and the still grab Ivysaur after. And once Ivysaur gets tossed in the air, there's danger afoot.

Though we really should get over the PT ditto, on account it's largely 50-50 anyway.

I once again agree with retro gaming.


and on another note, we should start thinking of who's next to discuss.


I say we start from the bottom of the tier list and work our way up.

naaaah i think we should do the heavy hitters first. this way we are improving the pt's out there more. which is why i started this whole mess anyway!

plus, all three pokemon are decent, mid tier material (at least), so pt shouldn't have much trouble with low tier characters.

the papa thread will be updated with retro gaming's analysis, as most people seem to agree with this. however, i'd like to make a point and say that charizard's advantage over ivysaur is contested. i will likely edit the op of this thread and link in the papa thread, so that discussion can continue here.

i only wish i could edit the TITLE of the papa thread...

finally, i really think we should cover metaknight next, unless we have any strong objections, otherwise, that thread will be up in a day or two.

I agree on discussing metaknight. There isn't much point beginning with the low tier (it's not like we really know who those characters are yet anyway), instead it would make sense to get straight to those characters which are giving PT a lot of trouble right now.

I'm so glad the PT board has finally decided to discuss character match ups like this!

anyone know where the pokemon trainer clan is? or isn't there one.......

There was one going around at the outset of Brawl. It has since died, methinks.

Should have posted in the General PT Discussion. =/