Corrected Coding error in the game causing pointless lag among certain characters

CluelessBTD · May 31, 2008

UPDATE: Due to recent findings, the information below has been corrected. The nerf is even worse than initially thought, occuring after grabbing the ledge from any special attack and not resetting until you hit the ground from the air, unconditionaly. Sliq may be credited for this correction.
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UPDATE #2:
11 other characters are inflicted. Wolf, Mario, Luigi Fox, Falco, Marth, Capt. Falcon, Charizard, Squirtle, and Lucario.
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I'm going to explain a couple of things, forgive me if I suck at getting the point across.

I will be referring to that vulnerable flashing animation after an aerial special attack as FallSpecial. Secondly, I will be referring to the lag that occurs from landing during a FallSpecial as LandSpecial

THE "GLITCH":
I haven't tested it with all the characters but I have noticed that normally if you grab a ledge while during a special, the LandSpecial is cancelled without needing to land. Duh, right? However, with Ganondorf, if you grab the ledge during a special, the LandSpecial is NOT canceled. This means that if you grab the ledge using a special, you will experience LandSpecial the next time you fall onto the ground. What kind of crap is this?!

FOR EXAMPLE:
You perform an UpB or sideB during recovery and grab the ledge. Then, you plan to jump from the ledge, land behind your opponent and open your shield. But what is this? Your shield didn't open for some reason! You get hit instead! *Profanity*

So there we go, you get lag for no reason at all from what looked like a normal fall, not a FallSpecial.

gantrain05 · May 31, 2008

i know exactly what your talking about, i think we can all accept that the creators over there at nintendo must really not like ganondorf, or else they wouldnt be gimping him as badly as they are.

BrawlBro · Jun 1, 2008

HAHAHAHAHA ganandork sucks so much

Magus-Cie · Jun 1, 2008

But you know what? Next Smash Bros. they will realize their error. It will be glorious. Think, if we do this well with a horrible character, what will it be like when he isn't suck?

:034: · Jun 1, 2008

Oh god, I lol'd so hard. They just coded the game in such a way that Ganondorf would suck way harder than usual.

Sakurai, I want top tier Ganon for the next game as an apology.

Roller · Jun 1, 2008

Flying Dutchman said:
Oh god, I lol'd so hard. They just coded the game in such a way that Ganondorf would suck way harder than usual.

I don't know, whenever ganon has sucked me it has always been a little hard... Even when I tell him to be gentle...

Sliq · Jun 1, 2008

I've always wondered why this happens. This is the stupid **** ever.

On the positive side, since I'm going to land with lag anyways, I might as well do an aerial.

Also, does this occur if you airdodge to the ground?

HolySerpent · Jun 1, 2008

I think it does cuz whenever I try to airdodge to the ground my shield doesn't come out and I get hit anyway.

leafgreen386 · Jun 1, 2008

THAT FREAKING EXPLAINS IT! Yes, I'm quite sure this happens when you air dodge into the ground, as NUMEROUS times I've tried to come from the ledge onto the stage, air dodge, and my shield just never comes up. Pretty freaking gay.

Sliq · Jun 1, 2008

Can you just drop from the ledge, then sweet spot the ledge to eliminate the lag?

CluelessBTD · Jun 1, 2008

Sliq said:
Can you just drop from the ledge, then sweet spot the ledge to eliminate the lag?

No, I have tried everything possible. No matter what, you will still get that landing lag. The only way to avoid it is to roll up from the ledge, attack from the ledge, or stand from the edge.

I have tried, to no avail:
-dropping and regrabbing the ledge
-dropping and sweetspotting with upB
-dropping and regrabbing with sideB
-jumping and regrabbing the ledge

It is just s***

Like Sliq said, if you are going to jump from the ledge whilst being hindered by this error, it would be best to perform an aerial before landing that will give you some lag anyway, but at least you will get a hitbox out there.

Sliq said:
Also, does this occur if you airdodge to the ground?

Yes, it does still occur.

xX'Mitsurugi'Xx · Jun 1, 2008

Ganondorf was my main in melee, he's still my fav nintendo char..... but he had coding problems in the last game, you think nintendo would get their act together and work these bugs out, but no. My hats off to you ganondorf players, I couldn't stick with him and win tournaments.

Sliq · Jun 1, 2008

CluelessBTD said:
No, I have tried everything possible. No matter what, you will still get that landing lag. The only way to avoid it is to roll up from the ledge, attack from the ledge, or stand from the edge.

I have tried, to no avail:
-dropping and regrabbing the ledge
-dropping and sweetspotting with upB
-dropping and regrabbing with sideB
-jumping and regrabbing the ledge

It is just s***

Like Sliq said, if you are going to jump from the ledge whilst being hindered by this error, it would be best to perform an aerial before landing that will give you some lag anyway, but at least you will get a hitbox out there.

Yes, it does still occur.

Well, I suggest doing the ledge hop over b then, if you are planning on jumping off of the ledge after not sweet spotting the up b. It's fast, and has some lag anyways, but less than just landing. Might as well make it worth something.

But keep this on the down low. We don't need non-Ganon players knowing this.

Metal_Dave · Jun 1, 2008

What a downer...

Why did they have to do this to my favorite character!

Sliq · Jun 1, 2008

I tested this, and as it turns out, if you grab the ledge with either over b or up b, regardless of what you do, the next time you jump and hit the ground you have the lag from the special. For example, I up b recover, then just stand up on the edge. If I go to AC a dair, and I hold shield as the move ends, Ganon has lag and does not bring up his shield immediately.

So basically, anytime you use a special to recover, you are going to have lag the next time you hit the ground. The only way to circumvent this lag is to do an aerial, since you are going to lag regardless, you might as well fair. Also, if you shorthop and immediately over b, this will reset your landing lag to 0, and is probably your best option. Regardless, this is monumentally ********.

FURTHERMORE, if you hit someone with your up b and land on the stage, you will also suffer this lag. Furthering the *********** level even further.

DeletedGod · Jun 1, 2008

Great, ANOTHER nerf/weakness. My main in melee has gone to the point of being unusable.

Renufus · Jun 1, 2008

And the list goes on...

IR.O.B.edC.Falcon · Jun 2, 2008

If we sweetspot the ledge with the special, do we still get this lag?

Sliq · Jun 2, 2008

IR.O.B.edC.Falcon said:
If we sweetspot the ledge with the special, do we still get this lag?

It doesn't matter. Anytime you use a special to recover, you will eventually suffer landing lag regardless of whether or not you grab the ledge.

PK-ow! · Jun 2, 2008

This thread needs one of those hyperbolic narratives involving Sakurai and Iawata and/or game developers making the decisions leading to this.

Then we can move on.

It's like... they just... forgot to code the conditions for terminating 'landspecial' for Ganny.

Psha. He's still totally badass.

Warlock*G · Jun 2, 2008

*Another* glitch! Yes, another, ladies and gents!

I swear, Saky and co. put so much attention on SSE and stickers they haven't taken time to balance or test the game properly. Chaingrabs, infinites, and now this?

And don't get me started on tripping. Brawl now officially sucks compared to Melee. In fact, if it wasn't for Wario, Brawl would be a complete wreck.

xX Boezy Xx · Jun 2, 2008

Ahhh... this is just ******** to an all new level. Two words to describe this :

EPIC FAIL

Tenki · Jun 2, 2008

DeletedGod said:
Great, ANOTHER nerf/weakness. My main in melee has gone to the point of being unusable.

...Given that it's been like this since Brawl came out, it's not like someone just found the new exploit that killed Ganon as bad as the Lucas chaingrab situation.

But it does explain some things, so at least Ganon players know what to expect instead of constantly going for air-dodge>shield just to get hit upon landing when they recover with up-B. Like mentioned a little earlier, you can still attack/roll/get-up as normal. It's jumping from the ledge after an up-B that you have lag on.

I don't think this would be much if it were true, but is this the same with side-B, too?
-------

On a random note, Sonic has something similar to this- if you hit land at the apex of the up-B (without cancelling the up-B with an airdodge or aerial), just as it starts his "fallSpecial" tumble state that disables B moves, it saves it for the next time you're in the air. It was part of what caused the hype of the "air trip"... lol.

edit:
vvv wtf? vvv

Warlock*G · Jun 2, 2008

Funny... it reminds me of yet another rap quote that can be applied to the present situation, concerning the developpers (and Sakurai) epic fail:

"I'm not a marksman when I spark so I spray random/
I'm not a pretty ***** but my mom thinks I'm handsome"

First line is about not testing the game properly, second line is about not caring about it too much and sometimes overestimating one's abilities (remember when Saky said "I really hate to say it, but we really thought of everything"? Everything? Yeah, right. :psycho:

I still laugh thinking about it. How about testing the game and giving Ganon his sword and testing the game some more so Falcon and Ganon aren't unplayable pieces of ****??!

Ok ok. I'm done... It's just a game, I know. Still, **** this ****.

goodoldganon · Jun 2, 2008

This really is sad day for any Ganondorf fan or any fan of the Zelda series in general. There is NO ****ING EXCUSE for things like this to go through the **** testing process of the game. I can safely say everyone would rather have usable characters then dumb *** stickers that are used in one HORRIBLY designed game mode.

I really hope Nintendo gets their head out of their respective ***** here real soon. This is why games have patches. But my dinky *** 512 MB hard drive can't hold a patches. I really can't think straight right now. Every passing day pisses me off more with this game. I'm sure plenty of people love their character but it really saddens me that my favorite video game character won't get the decent kind of work he deserves.

**** SUKURAI AND HIS TERRIBLE BETA TESTING TEAM!!!

After typing my pissy PMS message I went to do some testing and am realizing Ganon isn't the only one with this problem. This is also effecting Wolf, Mario, Luigi Fox, Falco, Marth, Capt. Falcon, Charizard, Squirtle, and Lucario. I did this by testing the time it took for the character to shield after doing an Auto-canceled aerial as well as an airdodge then shield.

Frozenserpent · Jun 2, 2008

Wow, and I just figured that chars had landing lag in brawl. This explains much.

Sliq · Jun 2, 2008

Tenki said:
...Given that it's been like this since Brawl came out, it's not like someone just found the new exploit that killed Ganon as bad as the Lucas chaingrab situation.

But it does explain some things, so at least Ganon players know what to expect instead of constantly going for air-dodge>shield just to get hit upon landing when they recover with up-B. Like mentioned a little earlier, you can still attack/roll/get-up as normal. It's jumping from the ledge after an up-B that you have lag on.

I don't think this would be much if it were true, but is this the same with side-B, too?
-------

On a random note, Sonic has something similar to this- if you hit land at the apex of the up-B (without cancelling the up-B with an airdodge or aerial), just as it starts his "fallSpecial" tumble state that disables B moves, it saves it for the next time you're in the air. It was part of what caused the hype of the "air trip"... lol.

edit:
vvv wtf? vvv

You do realize that I posted rolling or getting off the ledge still makes you have landing lag, right? The next time you are airborne, when you land, you will still have landing lag. So, you are wrong.

xX'Mitsurugi'Xx · Jun 2, 2008

DeletedGod said:
Great, ANOTHER nerf/weakness. My main in melee has gone to the point of being unusable.

! RANT ALERT ! UNUSABLE! I agree. It's almost as if Nintendo was trying to make the strongest villan in their game arsenal look like a panzy. I mean, Everyone got some power, skill, weapon or trait or more from their game, except Ganondorf...... Where's His ability to fire beams on a whim? (Ah, Black hole attack anyone?) Any one of his weapons? (Holy sword, Axe sword, Trident, Dual swords) (This one baffles me) His ability to transport between dimensions? Tell me this, does Ganondorf, one time in any of his games use Warlock punch or any of his b-button attacks......No, No he dose not. As one of the stronger, cooler chars in smash, Nintendo ruined him.

Tenki · Jun 2, 2008

Sliq said:
You do realize that I posted rolling or getting off the ledge still makes you have landing lag, right? The next time you are airborne, when you land, you will still have landing lag. So, you are wrong.

Ah, I misread your other post then. Skimming ftl

So does it carry for all his specials, or is it just up-B's landing lag that has this trait?

On expecting landing lag, if you try to do Aerial Down-B, will up-B's landing lag replace its own landing lag, or will it carry over to your next jump after that?

Magus-Cie · Jun 2, 2008

Can someone explain exactly what sweetspotting the ledge is?I just cant seem to grasp the idea :x

Tenki · Jun 2, 2008

That's when you autograb the ledge (usually referring to when you autograb out of a move). For example, Falcon's Up-B getting cancelled when he gets near the ledge no matter where he is in the animation = the move sweetspots the ledge.

CluelessBTD · Jun 2, 2008

OMG! UPDATE! Ganon isn't the only way inflicted with this error.

Characters affected (sideB as well as upB):
Fox, Falco, Mario, Luigi, Ganon, Wolf, lucario, C.Falcon, Marth.

I didn't test the trainer, cuz i just don't like that character

goodoldganon · Jun 2, 2008

CluelessBTD said:
OMG! UPDATE! Ganon isn't the only way inflicted with this error. I just found that Marth's upB experiences the same thing. I'm going to go do some testing to see which specials experience this flaw.

Dude read my post I have the list off all the characters.

This is also effecting Wolf, Mario, Luigi Fox, Falco, Marth, Capt. Falcon, Charizard, Squirtle, and Lucario. I did this by testing the time it took for the character to shield after doing an Auto-canceled aerial as well as an airdodge then shield.

xX'Mitsurugi'Xx · Jun 2, 2008

Wow, thats not good. *plans to exploit*

CluelessBTD · Jun 2, 2008

goodoldganon said:
Dude read my post I have the list off all the characters.

This is also effecting Wolf, Mario, Luigi Fox, Falco, Marth, Capt. Falcon, Charizard, Squirtle, and Lucario. I did this by testing the time it took for the character to shield after doing an Auto-canceled aerial as well as an airdodge then shield.

I read all of your previous post except the bottom part. I figured the important info would be at the top, as seems to be the trend.

goodoldganon · Jun 2, 2008

CluelessBTD said:
I read all of your previous post except the bottom part. I figured the important info would be at the top, as seems to be the trend.

That would make sense, but I'm unconvential. I posted the findings in the Tactical Discussion so check it out. I believe I gave you credit, but tell me what you think.

Warlock*G · Jun 2, 2008

It doesn't matter, Ganondorf is ruined and I too am pissed off more and more with that game each day. Thanks to the no-patch system, it will never get corrected.

Oh, and the infantilizing online mode is what made me realize the Wii is a kiddy console. Yeah, I said it: Nintendo makes kiddy consoles! Not the graphics, not the gameplay, nope: it's the infantilizing, no options piece of **** online modes, especially Brawl's, that did it for me. **** this ****.

adumbrodeus · Jun 2, 2008

So That's What Happened!!!

My little bro used this to take a couple of stocks off with my gannondorf and my Marth (who this also affects apparently...), great!

This needs a picture.

edit:

Hey, the universe threw us a bone....

SJR and ISJR can be used to stall the lag and stall it indefinitely respectively, this is definitely gonna be a required AT for Gannondorf in the future.

SJR/ISJR overview

Post about testing along with a way to test yourself

Shamoo · Jun 3, 2008

lol wow, a tech discovery in the Ganon forum.

Guys ganon for top tier. :3

adumbrodeus · Jun 3, 2008

Shamoo said:
lol wow, a tech discovery in the Ganon forum.

Guys ganon for top tier. :3

Unfortunately it's nowhere near my discovery, this is a second-hand reporting of a universal AT that is obviously now particularly useful for Gannondorf.

Of course that doesn't change the fact that it's awesome.

*Corrected* Coding error in the game causing pointless lag among certain characters

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Corrected Coding error in the game causing pointless lag among certain characters