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Counterpick Stages

∫unk

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The art of counterpicking is difficult and non-uniform. Every individual is different, and your counterpick may change depending on the opponent.

Keep in mind that Marth is one of the most versatile fighters in Brawl, and can do well on most stages. This means that as a Marth player you will more often pick a stage that is bad for the opponent (ex. Frigate Orpheon for Olimar) than a stage that favors yourself.

However, if you have absolutely no idea what the opponents weak stage is, then consider these good Marth stages:

Battlefield: IMO the best neutral that Marth can start a match on, but also a solid counterpick. You can dolphin slash (B up) from under the center platform and land neatly on top, resulting in less lag time than normal for that move. There is no lip on the stage so you cannot be gimped in that manner. The platforms are well placed for approaching against campers/projectile spammers as well as aerial combat. When you are on the base, up-tilt and dancing blade (up combo) easily clear the lower platforms. The only bad part about this stage is that it is a neutral, and because everyone is used to playing this stage you may not be able to exploit your advantages as much as you would like.

Delphino Plaza: A fan favorite for many, Delphino also happens to be a great stage for Marth. You can dolphin slash through the level as it flies around, you can actually be under the stage and reverse dolphin slash to grab an edge, and in most "pit stops" there is water to prevent gimping while you can still spike through it. There are walls at two stops that you can trap your opponent and abuse your d-tilt infinite for an easy kill. The platforms aren't as easy to abuse for your aerial game, and you can't really hit through the platforms on the base level with up-tilt, but this is another stage that is hard for a projectile camper. The bad part of this stage is in transition periods you may be gimped if the stage lifts off and your only means of getting back on is grabbing the edge with a double jump dolphin slash. Make sure you know when the stage is transitioning so you don't get edge hogged.

Onett: My favorite counterpick. It's ridiculous that this stage isn't banned yet. You have 2 walls to work with that are fairly close together, so it is really easy to set up the d-tilt trap. The platforms are perfectly spaced so that you can go to work with your dominant aerial game. For those that rely on horizontal kills you can survive to really high percentages on this level by teching off the houses. Marth has an easy time being in control on this stage, which also makes it easy for you to avoid the cars (which now have little impact but still do a lot of damage). In my experience, combos done such as in this video are not uncommon on Onett (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8UyTtc83Qk).

I would like to compile a list for general counterpick stages (ex. Jungle Japes and Rainbow Cruise against snake), but also if anyone else has good counterpick stages let's hear them!
 

Inui

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Onett should be banned and will definitely be banned most of the time.

I love Battlefield and Delfino.

Good choices. I'd add Frigate Orpheon for dealing with characters that have ledge-dependant recoveries since he can just tipper them when they're forced to land on the right.
 

Nintendo_lord

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Uhhh, FD and Smashville anybody? Brilliant stages for Marth because he can easily gimp people's recovery with fair and his aerial game is like uberness. I HATE Battlefield oddly, but Delfino Plaza is an amazing choice for Marth players (unless you are fighting a DK...sooo many spikes...)
 

BacklashMarth

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The warioware stage is good for marth and his recovery. Platforms keep ppl from spamming projectiles (when they're there). Also, i find spiking, edgeguarding, and edgehogging to be easier here, but i can't explain why yet.
 

Doodx

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i feel very confortable at smashville i feel like i can recover from further because of that moving platform and same for yoshi stage
 

∫unk

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Onett should be banned and will definitely be banned most of the time.

I love Battlefield and Delfino.

Good choices. I'd add Frigate Orpheon for dealing with characters that have ledge-dependant recoveries since he can just tipper them when they're forced to land on the right.
Onett should be banned but I keep seeing it on tournament stage lists :chuckle:

I think Frigate Orpheon will eventually be banned for the high % of gimps that occur even when you know what's happening.

Uhhh, FD and Smashville anybody? Brilliant stages for Marth because he can easily gimp people's recovery with fair and his aerial game is like uberness. I HATE Battlefield oddly, but Delfino Plaza is an amazing choice for Marth players (unless you are fighting a DK...sooo many spikes...)
FD isn't good against projectile spammers and you can get stuck under the lip if you are careless. I think all stages off the edge are pretty similar.. it's just how you set up to get there that's stage dependent.

I like Smashville too but it's also really good for characters with really bad recoveries (ex. Ike and Olimar). They can actively try to stay on the side with the platform so they can be saved in situations that would be a stock loss otherwise.

Norfair. No camping. No edgehogging. Marth only.
Norfair is banned at most places... but if you've mastered the lava then more power to you :bigthumbu

If anyone wants to list Marth's bad stages also that would be great. Thanks.
 

BacklashMarth

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Norfair. No camping. No edgehogging. Marth only.
So we are only talking about stages that are allowed in tournaments? That narrows down the list then. Can someone list these stages so we don't waste space saying "this is banned" or "that is banned". Picking Final Destination is asking to be ***** against projectile spammers (namely Pit). Dedede, Falco, Metaknight, and Snake have a definite advantage here because of their recoveries and some for thier projectiles. Those edges are unforgiving to marths recovery.
 

VietGeek

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So we are only talking about stages that are allowed in tournaments? That narrows down the list then. Can someone list these stages so we don't waste space saying "this is banned" or "that is banned". Picking Final Destination is asking to be ***** against projectile spammers (namely Pit). Dedede, Falco, Metaknight, and Snake have a definite advantage here because of their recoveries and some for thier projectiles. Those edges are unforgiving to marths recovery.
The problem is that a definitive stage list has not been created yet. Therefore, each tourney usually has its own unique tournament stage list. While most of the tournament stages allowed from one tourney to another are usually consistent (most neutrals are fairly the same), counterpicks are usually the most suggestive.

For example, in the monthlies I go to, Frigate Orpheon and Norfair are CP (no one really chooses them though, lol) and Delfino is neutral (democracy fails me due to 9000+ Dedede users there anyone?)

So basically, we can't offer you a definitive list. The fact that the TC said Onett is a good CP already reflects that (most GA tourneys have Onett on banned IIRC, because the walk-offs are permanent (Dedede is popular here too, so yeah, obvious move).

I personally prefer Norfair too, but gripe at how screwed up recovery is for the central platform (if you play there often, you know what I'm speaking of). Okay, it's not THAT bad, but still...=(

Okay, I'm done ranting. Someone shut me up.
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

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Marth should be playing Battlefield. No character can abuse the platforms on the same level as Marth. U-tilt to cancelled U-airs are freakin' awesome. Hanenbow is a great level for Marth as well because the level is so aerial based. However, I am seeing this map getting mixed reviews on Balance.

Marth's worst levels are probably Luigi's Mansion and Final Destination. Here why; Luigi's Mansion cripples aerial games with the weird floors. It also ruins a lot of Marth's kill potential and comboing by giving your opponent a place to tech. Essentially, all the traits that make Marth awesome get completely shut down so long as the structure stands. Final Destination is bad because its wide and open, allowing your opponent to create more space then you would like to see. Lack of platforms reduces combo potential and makes avoiding energy based projectiles harder. Its not AS terrible as Luigi's Mansion, but its still not neutral in some matchups.
 

Shök

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Any Walk-Off Stage.

The DB all neutral combo will kill the at 0% if they are close enough to the end of the stage.

Insanely Fun.
 

Almo

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Interesting choice. I really like delfino and counterpick it, but don't seem to do well on it a whole lot. The only time i ever counterpick it is against a lucario because of the edges or someone who also has a hard time making use of the platforms.

BF is good, and surprisingly alot of the people i play seem to religiously play on FD, so i've become better on that stage but BF throws alot of people off who play FD too much. platforms are amazing.

Smashville i love and hate at the same time. It's an awesome stage for marth with the small boundries, but i find it difficult to play ridiculously powerful people like snake here. snake racks up damage very quickly, which makes it pretty easy for him to KO, but im no snake expert so idk if this stage is awful for snake or what.

I do pretty well on halberd too, fr reasons i have yet to discover. I don't believe it's the platform being low, since people seem to stay on the bottom level the majority of the time. i think it throws people off who never play here, like frigate would throw me off.

yoshi's story i play terrible on. the slanted edges are just extra space to clear over, and anyone with any range can knock you right off if you ledge hop into a fair or i've even airdodged and gotten hit since the airdodge ends when you hit the ground. this eliminates alot of your options and ive found that rolling and standing up are nothing but trouble in brawl, so reverting to the attack get up and ledge jump are not fun. plus, being on the platform is asking to be hit. however i do love the ghost.

Lylat is amazing with the small edges, and it ruins ALOT of characters recoveries that require precise spacing and such. but after playing here for a while, you get used to the edges (even when it tilts) so it's not a problem with getting caught under.

onett's good, i like it more here than melee's version with marth because the level is noticably smaller.

just throwing my input here and there.
 

∫unk

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So we are only talking about stages that are allowed in tournaments? That narrows down the list then. Can someone list these stages so we don't waste space saying "this is banned" or "that is banned". Picking Final Destination is asking to be ***** against projectile spammers (namely Pit). Dedede, Falco, Metaknight, and Snake have a definite advantage here because of their recoveries and some for thier projectiles. Those edges are unforgiving to marths recovery.
There are some "questionable" such as Norfair, which we can discuss anyway in case it IS legal.

However, I don't think anyone can legitimately argue for a ridiculous stage like Warioware. That's a definite ban.

If it's a questionable ban we should discuss it in case it is legal.

So basically, we can't offer you a definitive list. The fact that the TC said Onett is a good CP already reflects that (most GA tourneys have Onett on banned IIRC, because the walk-offs are permanent (Dedede is popular here too, so yeah, obvious move).

I personally prefer Norfair too, but gripe at how screwed up recovery is for the central platform (if you play there often, you know what I'm speaking of). Okay, it's not THAT bad, but still...=(

Okay, I'm done ranting. Someone shut me up.
TC? Anyways that stage is sooo good for tether recovery I'm not sure I would pick that against any of them.... Plus most tether recovery people have a good projectile which makes it harder to camp in the tunnels that pop up.

Marth should be playing Battlefield. No character can abuse the platforms on the same level as Marth. U-tilt to cancelled U-airs are freakin' awesome. Hanenbow is a great level for Marth as well because the level is so aerial based. However, I am seeing this map getting mixed reviews on Balance.

Marth's worst levels are probably Luigi's Mansion and Final Destination. Here why; Luigi's Mansion cripples aerial games with the weird floors. It also ruins a lot of Marth's kill potential and comboing by giving your opponent a place to tech. Essentially, all the traits that make Marth awesome get completely shut down so long as the structure stands. Final Destination is bad because its wide and open, allowing your opponent to create more space then you would like to see. Lack of platforms reduces combo potential and makes avoiding energy based projectiles harder. Its not AS terrible as Luigi's Mansion, but its still not neutral in some matchups.
Hanenbow? I'll start counterpicking that to test it out... I never picked it because the changing leaf angles seem like they would mess up spacing for things like f-smash.

I agree on the Luigi's Mansion and Final Destination for being bad stages for Marth... For Luigi's Mansion if you stay near the center and abuse the transition section between the floors it's a little better... just watch for people with good vertical KOs (SNAAAAAAAKE).

Any Walk-Off Stage.

The DB all neutral combo will kill the at 0% if they are close enough to the end of the stage.

Insanely Fun.
Agreed... but I tend to avoid these against any good thrower (like DK) because they have the advantage in the situation and they can kill you just as easily.

Smashville i love and hate at the same time. It's an awesome stage for marth with the small boundries, but i find it difficult to play ridiculously powerful people like snake here. snake racks up damage very quickly, which makes it pretty easy for him to KO, but im no snake expert so idk if this stage is awful for snake or what.

I do pretty well on halberd too, fr reasons i have yet to discover. I don't believe it's the platform being low, since people seem to stay on the bottom level the majority of the time. i think it throws people off who never play here, like frigate would throw me off.

yoshi's story i play terrible on. the slanted edges are just extra space to clear over, and anyone with any range can knock you right off if you ledge hop into a fair or i've even airdodged and gotten hit since the airdodge ends when you hit the ground. this eliminates alot of your options and ive found that rolling and standing up are nothing but trouble in brawl, so reverting to the attack get up and ledge jump are not fun. plus, being on the platform is asking to be hit. however i do love the ghost.

Lylat is amazing with the small edges, and it ruins ALOT of characters recoveries that require precise spacing and such. but after playing here for a while, you get used to the edges (even when it tilts) so it's not a problem with getting caught under.
Snake is too good on Smashville. It's characters like him and other less-than-average recovery characters that turn me away from Smashville as a counterpick.

One thing that's nice about Halberd is the ability to go through the bottom. Marth gets one of the biggest bonuses from stages with this property.

I don't like Yoshi's Story either. The changing platform in the middle messes with my spacing or general positioning. Also your ledge drop double jump n-airs can get gimped by the diagonal edges.

Lylat is awesome... I think it's either Lylat or Smashville for second best neutral for Marth. Smashville is probably better for Marth in general, but relatively Lylat does better against other characters which puts it on top for me.

^^^ One good thing about Luigi's Mansion is that it can be a great way to stop projectile spammers.
Or it could encourage really campy ones unfortunately :(
 

∫unk

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Against campers I've found Yoshi's Story to be pretty good too. There isn't much space for them to run around. Plus people with ridiculous recovery can't do under the stage shenanigans.
 

Ulevo

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The stages best suited for Marth would likely be Battlefield, Lylat Cruise and Frigate Orpheon, potentially followed by Norfair. Lylat Cruise has the platforms in place for good sword spacing, and it messes with projectiles when the stage tilts towards the shooter. It also aids Marth in his great gimping game. Marth on Norfair is a coin toss, and it depends on the character. The platforms are great for avoiding certain projectiles, and they aid Marth in sword play, but characters with good horizontal recovery or tether recovery live long on this stage, and projectiles like Pits Arrows are fine to use there. Battlefield and Frigate Orpheon are pretty self explanatory.
 

xXZeroXx

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I personally like FD, it may be a bad place fighting against projectiles spammers, but I find it easier to spike with Dair (same in BF). I have to try BF more though. Lylat Cruise is one of the best, I can combo with aerials pretty good there.
 

Lucario623

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Onett should be banned and will definitely be banned most of the time.

I love Battlefield and Delfino.

Good choices. I'd add Frigate Orpheon for dealing with characters that have ledge-dependant recoveries since he can just tipper them when they're forced to land on the right.
i think frigate orpheon should not be banned
 

Steel

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I personally like FD, it may be a bad place fighting against projectiles spammers, but I find it easier to spike with Dair (same in BF). I have to try BF more though. Lylat Cruise is one of the best, I can combo with aerials pretty good there.
How is it easier to spike there? Or is it just a preference/mental thing?
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

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Hanenbow is a level that really take a special kind of practice. I DOES throw off your spacing... when your on the ground. Tilts, Smashes and Dancing Blade are harder to space on this map. This isn't one that I would bring a spacies or similar character to, when you need your tilts to space.

BUT; when your playing mainly in the air, that many platforms, stacked in that way, give you a TON of ways to pressure the opponent. If doesn't allow tethers... aids your own recovery... I love the map... ^^
 

∫unk

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Awesome I'm going to try Hanenbow a little more now.

Onett is not banned at some places yet. Frigate Orpheon will be banned. The other day at a tourney I went to in losers finals a guy lost because the stage flipped and he somehow got vertical KO'ed with Samus (he wasn't getting hit, he was just jumping).
 

illinialex24

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Nice job. I hate Battlefield when I play as Jiggs (no u-smash through so they can land much safer there than I can) but when I play as Marth, its amazing. Only thing I would say is no Onet or Corneria against a DK. He has the same D-Tilt trap.
 

KaosKun

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As a marth player, if you get to ban 2 counters immediately ban Luigi's Mansion. One of the worst plaves for marth since they can easily tech very easily off the walls and marths kills moves have some vertical arc to it.

Delphino - good verse most bad against dedede and M. K.

Rainbow Cruise - a decent counter to snake since it forces him into the air

BF - its just an all around good stage like most other nuetrals,does not favor a character too much not even marth

norfair - could be a decent counter against the right opponent

Frigate Orpheon - its not bad, the one side without a ledge can be a pain but easily avoideddon't take anyone who can ledge stall there.

Hannenbow - surprisingly a good stage, muli platformed and can be moved around just watch for campers

post other stages i don't remember them off the top of my head
 

Sunaipa

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Uhh, can someone fill me in on what DB means? xD
Been trying to look for the meaning, cant find it.
 

∫unk

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Dancing Blade, or some noobs use it to refer to Down B.

I think we need to find out which stages are definite bans so we can discuss all other stages. If someone can find me a tentative stage list with recommended bans and such that would be great.
 

Shök

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I Think that Marth Preforms Really Well on Yoshi's Island.
It's small, so he can catch spammers,
Has a nice platform for U-tilting,
If you screw his recovery up, the platform ususally saves you
And it's easy to get them spiked or Ken Comboed.
Anyone Agree?
 

Almo

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I wish i recorded it, but Lylat is amazing because i spiked a GaW when he was under the stage and i was on the stage with the dair. Lylat's become my 1 really good counterpick, but I'm having trouble finding others. I lose to DK on FD constantly, and i lose on smashville more than i should. Battlefield is alright, but i need a really great one that can throw people off, like Brinstar? lol
 

person701

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^^^ One good thing about Luigi's Mansion is that it can be a great way to stop projectile spammers.
For one, I find it annoying since opponents tech attacks a lot here. Second, what happens when the stage levels out? It's like FD all over.

Hanenbow is a level that really take a special kind of practice. I DOES throw off your spacing... when your on the ground. Tilts, Smashes and Dancing Blade are harder to space on this map. This isn't one that I would bring a spacies or similar character to, when you need your tilts to space.

BUT; when your playing mainly in the air, that many platforms, stacked in that way, give you a TON of ways to pressure the opponent. If doesn't allow tethers... aids your own recovery... I love the map... ^^
Hanenbow will be banned because I've seen tethers get messed up here even when in range. Though I do seem where it'd be a great stage for Marth.

But really, IMO I think that Marth only has a few solid counterpicks. All others I think would be gimping the opponent's character's playstyle.
 

∫unk

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Has anyone tried legitimately trying to learn pokemon stadium 2 (it's still legal right...)? Every time I play it I feel like there's potential for Marth, but also a huge gimping possibility (even if you're adept at the stage).
 

Almo

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Has anyone tried legitimately trying to learn pokemon stadium 2 (it's still legal right...)? Every time I play it I feel like there's potential for Marth, but also a huge gimping possibility (even if you're adept at the stage).
That's one i forgot to mention. The stage seems pretty good for marth, and i think's it's due to the fact that it has the boundries similar to FD without all the hassle of the lip, and a constant stage change. The design and feel of the main stage is pretty familiar to Stadium from Melee. The platforms are a great way to start something up when you're directly below them, and generally the size of the bottom platform allows you to move around a bit more. I find it hard to create some spacing on stages like smashville where it's just constantly being dash attacked or shield pressured, or large stages with projectile spammers. I haven't really seen a projectile spammer play people on this stage, so I'm not one to judge if it's good or bad against a Pit.

The treadmill's are so good for edge guarding, and are godly against tether recoveries. Because they are constantly moving you, and you want invinicbility frames, you can have your back to the edge and walk slowly, keeping yourself in a position near the edge in 1 spot. when you want you invicibility frames, just let go and the treadmill will push you onto the ledge, and gimp alot of characters like olimar, the spacies, etc. It's also good for people who find themselves doing the wallhug but just fast falling past the edge. I do this all the time onlien because of the delay and such, so this just makes it a bit easier for online games. But it's still a nice thing to do offline. They also give you momentum, so if you have some lucas recovering really far out, you can run and then fair as you coem of the treadmill while DIing to the lucas. If you've read M2K's guide, fairing when off the edge gives you horizontal momentum, so the momentum of DI + fair + treadmill = gimp? As for the platforms on that section, they're pretty low, so marth's amazing fair and uair do him well here.

As far as the flying portion of the stage, i generally don't like it because characters who have great aerial attacks but not great jumping ability can abuse this, like ike who can short hop double bair (lol and ouch). It can serve to a marth's advantage if you've got great spacing, and i'm not sure about side b-ing for infinite recovery since you can do it on low gravity mode (or so i've heard) and your falling speed and jumping ability are greatly altered even when off the stage.

The ground part i do like, since i loved the rock formation from melee. good spots i find are either on the very left side at the bottom of the hill, or directly to the right of the hill, not near the edge on the right side. platforms are just bad to be on for anyone in this section, and marth can do a D3 mock chaingrab on characters who break out of his grab if you have them up against the wall of the hill. I've done it against a yoshi and a lucas, but not sure if that proves anything. For some reason this section seems considerably smaller maybe due to the size of the hill taking up space. Which is great since alot of characters are size specific, like some characters do really good on big stages, and some on really small. Marth's a pretty versatile character so he doesn't have much trouble with this section opposed to the main platform like some people would on one or the other.

The ice I really don't mind, except for the 2 random platforms that no one ever goes on. Running upsmash is great since the hitbox stays out for a decent amount of time and sliding creates more distance, and stops momentum when you reach the edge where it's just normal ground, so if someone's standing there, you can time yourself accordingly for some spacing stuff. other than that, the fact that i seem to trip more on ice and it's hard to turn around unless you jump is ridiculous. This is probably my least favorite section of the stage.

Just throwing my opinion for stuff on this stage, some of it probably can't be applied or might be false, but i think this is basically why marth does good on the stage. In short, the platforms on all sections of this stage let marth ****. Being stuck on them on 4 of the 5 sections (flying doesnt have platforms) is just bad news against marth's fair.
 

Wander

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So we've got an idea of which stages are good for Marth, but which stages are particularly bad for him? I've run into trouble on FD from projectile spam and the lipped edges, but are there others? It would be nice to have some stages in mind to strike off the list when playing in tournaments.
 

Almo

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jungle japes nuff said you guys figure out why :p
unless you're playing ganondorf. he can't jump out of the current i don't think.

Wander: FD is bad against projectile spammers, or people who take advantage of the lip, under the stage shenanigans, no platforms and large boundries. Metaknight comes to mind.

Luigi's mansion isn't very good for marth. I've fell victim to the ridiculous ledges. I say they're worse than FD's because at least FD's lip is in clear sight. Luigi's has it hidden by the grass.

Yoshi's Island I don't do great on, because of the slanted edges and the weird platform. It was discussed before.

Smashville against ridiculously powerful people. i.e. snake, DK, ike. But it's still a good stage overall.

Green Greens isn't one of my favs for marth.

All the other "legal" stages i seem to do fine on.

This is my personal opinion, and i'm sure other people have different opinions, see what someone else has to say and then compare answers or something. I don't think it's so much as what stages are bad for him, as it is what you yourself prefer as a stage for a counterpick. In melee, yoshi's story was clearly marth's best stage for a number of different reasons. But it was my worst stage for a while on the neutral list, and FD was one of my better stages, so i always counterpicked FD because i was stronger on it. If you feel really comfortable on Yoshi's island in brawl, then work at it, and pick it as a counterpick down the road sometime. Obviously marth will do better on some stages naturally, but i feel if you work at something enough, then it will work, regardless of conditions.
 

meepxzero

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Starting to love halberd..... since everyone bans battle field against me ;\. Small stage so marth can keep pressuring real easy and platform is short like battlefields so you can usmash/utilt through it. Then you can use the bombs and claw to your advantage if it goes after u by countering them.
 

Almo

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812
Starting to love halberd..... since everyone bans battle field against me ;\. Small stage so marth can keep pressuring real easy and platform is short like battlefields so you can usmash/utilt through it. Then you can use the bombs and claw to your advantage if it goes after u by countering them.
of all the times i've played here, i've never thought of countering. interesting. i just like to mindgame people into the bubble or laser, otherwise i'm just pretty straightfoward on this stage. It's fun to keep them off to the side at the begginning so when the platform rises they either die or can be easily fair edge guarded. I think when the platform takes off, if marth users take advantage of that then this stage will be in thier favor easily. Almost everyone gets gimped by a few fairs off the stage with a wasted double jump.
 
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