Jekyll
Smash Ace
Merry Christmas Ganondorf Players!
Sliq, feel free to copy or link to this in your guide.
The following is a result of a series of tests I used to find out what attacks could be used as a follow-up to the Murder Choke to GUARANTEE a free hit, regardless of opponent DI. I also discovered and listed what DI certain opponents can use to dodge specific follow-ups. I plan on updating this guide in the future with more information regarding specific situations and the "Crazy *** Flying Murder Choke". I'll represent this data in several formats and hope that you guys can find use for it(I know I will
).
The Method:
All of my testing was done in Training Mode with both characters controlled by me. I don't think I need to go into how I controlled both characters, but since the only thing my left hand did for Ganon was hit → for the Murder Choke, I would immediately switch it over to the second character to control their DI. Basically, I just went through each character testing whether or not each attack connected with the following DI:
I had to restart several times since I would find more accurate and efficient ways of recording information. You *******s had better appreciate it.....
The Effects of DI:
I'm just throwing this out in case some of you don't know. Once an opponent is grabbed by the Murder Choke, they can immediately begin holding a direction to DI. The only directions that matter are Up, Left and Right.
By holding Left or Right, they both influence the direction that they bounce once the Choke "hits" AND immediately roll in that direction on the first frame possible. It's possible to switch DI and roll the opposite way, but it's really quite pointless methinks.
Holding up causes a character to stand up at the first frame possible. This is just as good at avoiding Murder Choke follow-ups since the opponent gets invincibility frames if they choose this option.
The Attacks:
D-Tilt
Damage: 21%
Info: You all know what this looks like. It's the attack that hits the most characters, so use it when you're in doubt about a character.
Timing: This move should be timed so that you begin JUST before the opponent hits the ground for the second time.
*TIP*: The reason that this is so hard to land on some characters is because(I think) if you hold Down completely while doing the tilt, the game thinks you want to crouch first. It's kind of like when you're holding back after an aerial for spacing and the game makes you turn around and walk when you land. If you hold down completely, the game buffers the crouch command and it delays your D-Tilt. Practice using the D-Tilt while barely pressing down, so that it doesn't even register as a crouch.
F-Tilt
Damage: 22%
Info: This attack tends to go over the thinner characters, and its reach isn't QUITE as long as the D-Tilt. However, it's strong and is a great move to use when you have a chance of KOing your opponent off of the side.
Timing: Similar to the D-Tilt, you should start this move right before your opponent hits the ground for the second time after the Murder Choke's "hit".
*TIP*: This is the tilt I had the most trouble with, personally(it may have been how I was holding the controller during testing). What I ended up doing for testing, and plan on adopting permanently, is setting my C-Stick to Attack rather than Smash. This has 2 effects:
Jab
Damage: 18%
Info: It's the jab!
Timing: Since it's a single command, it buffers really well. Just keep smashing the A button and it'll come out perfectly.
*All percentages include the damage from the Murder Choke and were taken in Training Mode with Stale Moves not effecting damage.
If you read the bit about the F-Tilt, then you know that I'm all about using the C-Stick for tilts...kind of. Yes, setting your C-Stick to Attack makes following up the Murder Choke a breeze. However, it complicates other things.
For starters, you can't use a "Back-Tilt". If you hit the C-Stick in the opposite direction you're facing, you end up just getting a jab.
Secondly, tilts with the C-Stick don't buffer as nicely in certain situations. If you hit the C-Stick to tilt too far before the time comes after the Murder Choke, you end up jumping. The same thing happens if you try to do a C-Sticked Tilt after dropping your shield. There were also several times today when I wanted to do a certain aerial, but ended up getting a Neutral Air! Hopefully I work these kinks out with time.
This is a list, similar to the one that can already be found somewhere on SWF, that simply lists what characters WILL be hit by a certain followup. Once again, whether or not they DI and ROLL is completely irrelevant. Characters are listed in roster order and some characters may appear on more than one list(because they're hit by more than one followup.
The D-Tilt:
The F-Tilt:
The Jab:
Next up, I've separated all of the characters into 5 groups. Groups 1-3 contain characters that have a GUARANTEED follow-up.
The characters in Group 1 have no self-esteem. You can do whatever you want with them, and they'll like it.
Group 2 contains characters that have a follow-up that isn't guaranteed to work, but two that are.
Group 3, if you haven't guessed, has characters that Ganon can only use a single follow-up on if he wants a guaranteed hit.
Group 4 is made up of characters who can only be hit by a follow-up in certain situations(when they use certain DI). If any of these characters know the match-up with Ganon well, then you'll never land any sort of follow-up after the Murder Choke.
Group 5 makes me sick. They're the characters that you will only be able to hit with a follow up when they choose to get up and attack. Even then, in most cases, your D-Tilt is the only thing that will hit the skinny S.O.B.s.
This info may seem irrelevant to some, but if I didn't think it was good to know, I wouldn't have included it.
Here they are:
Group 1: All follow-ups are GUARANTEED.
Have 2 GUARANTEED follow-ups.
Group 2:
Group 3: Only have 1 GUARANTEED follow-up.
Group 4: Situational follow-ups (see chart).
Group 5: No follow-ups. D-Tilt only when they try to attack.
Sliq, feel free to copy or link to this in your guide.
The Murder Choke Breakdown
.....Preface.....
.....Preface.....
The following is a result of a series of tests I used to find out what attacks could be used as a follow-up to the Murder Choke to GUARANTEE a free hit, regardless of opponent DI. I also discovered and listed what DI certain opponents can use to dodge specific follow-ups. I plan on updating this guide in the future with more information regarding specific situations and the "Crazy *** Flying Murder Choke". I'll represent this data in several formats and hope that you guys can find use for it(I know I will
)......Important Info.....
The Method:
All of my testing was done in Training Mode with both characters controlled by me. I don't think I need to go into how I controlled both characters, but since the only thing my left hand did for Ganon was hit → for the Murder Choke, I would immediately switch it over to the second character to control their DI. Basically, I just went through each character testing whether or not each attack connected with the following DI:
- Towards Ganon(Rolling Left)
- Away from Ganon(Rolling Right)
- Straight Up(Standing)
- No DI(Get-up Attack)
I had to restart several times since I would find more accurate and efficient ways of recording information. You *******s had better appreciate it.....
The Effects of DI:
I'm just throwing this out in case some of you don't know. Once an opponent is grabbed by the Murder Choke, they can immediately begin holding a direction to DI. The only directions that matter are Up, Left and Right.
By holding Left or Right, they both influence the direction that they bounce once the Choke "hits" AND immediately roll in that direction on the first frame possible. It's possible to switch DI and roll the opposite way, but it's really quite pointless methinks.
Holding up causes a character to stand up at the first frame possible. This is just as good at avoiding Murder Choke follow-ups since the opponent gets invincibility frames if they choose this option.
The Attacks:
D-Tilt
Damage: 21%
Info: You all know what this looks like. It's the attack that hits the most characters, so use it when you're in doubt about a character.
Timing: This move should be timed so that you begin JUST before the opponent hits the ground for the second time.
*TIP*: The reason that this is so hard to land on some characters is because(I think) if you hold Down completely while doing the tilt, the game thinks you want to crouch first. It's kind of like when you're holding back after an aerial for spacing and the game makes you turn around and walk when you land. If you hold down completely, the game buffers the crouch command and it delays your D-Tilt. Practice using the D-Tilt while barely pressing down, so that it doesn't even register as a crouch.
F-Tilt
Damage: 22%
Info: This attack tends to go over the thinner characters, and its reach isn't QUITE as long as the D-Tilt. However, it's strong and is a great move to use when you have a chance of KOing your opponent off of the side.
Timing: Similar to the D-Tilt, you should start this move right before your opponent hits the ground for the second time after the Murder Choke's "hit".
*TIP*: This is the tilt I had the most trouble with, personally(it may have been how I was holding the controller during testing). What I ended up doing for testing, and plan on adopting permanently, is setting my C-Stick to Attack rather than Smash. This has 2 effects:
- The command for the tilt buffers MUCH more nicely. I think it actually gets queued as a single command which cuts out "inbetween" frames that get filled with just hitting the direction you want. ie the game doesn't think you want to walk forward before using the F-Tilt.
- It's just much easier to time one "sticking" than it is to get out a tilt using the analog stick without walking or crouching.
Jab
Damage: 18%
Info: It's the jab!
Timing: Since it's a single command, it buffers really well. Just keep smashing the A button and it'll come out perfectly.
*All percentages include the damage from the Murder Choke and were taken in Training Mode with Stale Moves not effecting damage.
.....The C-Stick.....
If you read the bit about the F-Tilt, then you know that I'm all about using the C-Stick for tilts...kind of. Yes, setting your C-Stick to Attack makes following up the Murder Choke a breeze. However, it complicates other things.
For starters, you can't use a "Back-Tilt". If you hit the C-Stick in the opposite direction you're facing, you end up just getting a jab.
Secondly, tilts with the C-Stick don't buffer as nicely in certain situations. If you hit the C-Stick to tilt too far before the time comes after the Murder Choke, you end up jumping
. The same thing happens if you try to do a C-Sticked Tilt after dropping your shield. There were also several times today when I wanted to do a certain aerial, but ended up getting a Neutral Air! Hopefully I work these kinks out with time......The List.....
This is a list, similar to the one that can already be found somewhere on SWF, that simply lists what characters WILL be hit by a certain followup. Once again, whether or not they DI and ROLL is completely irrelevant. Characters are listed in roster order and some characters may appear on more than one list(because they're hit by more than one followup.
The D-Tilt:
- Mario
- Zero Suit Samus
- Kirby
- Fox
- Pikachu
- Mr. Game and Watch
- Luigi
- Diddy
- Zelda
- Shiek
- Pit
- Meta Knight
- Ivysuar
- Charizard
- Ike
- Peach
- Yoshi
- Ice Climbers
- King Dedede
- Ness
- Sonic
- Toon Link
- R.O.B.
- Capt. Olimar
- Capt. Falcon
- Jigglypuff
- Lucas
The F-Tilt:
- Kirby
- Pikachu
- Mr. Game and Watch
- Luigi
- Diddy
- Meta Knight
- Ivysuar
- Charizard
- Ike
- Yoshi
- Ice Climbers
- King Dedede
- Toon Link
- R.O.B.
- Capt. Olimar
- Jigglypuff
The Jab:
- Donkey Kong
- Link
- Samus
- Kirby
- Mr. Game and Watch
- Diddy
- Pit
- Meta Knight
- Ivysuar
- Charizard
- Ike
- Snake
- Yoshi
- Ice Climbers
- King Dedede
- Bowser
- R.O.B.
- Capt. Olimar
- Jigglypuff
The Groups
Next up, I've separated all of the characters into 5 groups. Groups 1-3 contain characters that have a GUARANTEED follow-up.
The characters in Group 1 have no self-esteem. You can do whatever you want with them, and they'll like it.
Group 2 contains characters that have a follow-up that isn't guaranteed to work, but two that are.
Group 3, if you haven't guessed, has characters that Ganon can only use a single follow-up on if he wants a guaranteed hit.
Group 4 is made up of characters who can only be hit by a follow-up in certain situations(when they use certain DI). If any of these characters know the match-up with Ganon well, then you'll never land any sort of follow-up after the Murder Choke.
Group 5 makes me sick. They're the characters that you will only be able to hit with a follow up when they choose to get up and attack. Even then, in most cases, your D-Tilt is the only thing that will hit the skinny S.O.B.s.
This info may seem irrelevant to some, but if I didn't think it was good to know, I wouldn't have included it.
Here they are:Group 1: All follow-ups are GUARANTEED.
- Kirby
- Mr. Game and Watch
- Diddy
- Meta Knight
- Ivysaur
- Charizard
- Ike
- Yoshi
- Ice Climbers
- King Dedede
- R.O.B.
- Capt. Olimar
- Jigglypuff
Have 2 GUARANTEED follow-ups.
Group 2:
- Pikachu (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)
- Luigi (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)
- Pit (D-Tilt, Jab)
- Toon Link (D-Tilt, F-Tilt)
Group 3: Only have 1 GUARANTEED follow-up.
- Mario (D-Tilt)
- Donkey Kong (Jab)
- Link (Jab)
- Samus (Jab)
- Zero Suit Samus (D-Tilt)
- Fox (D-Tilt)
- Zelda (D-Tilt)
- Shiek (D-Tilt)
- Snake (Jab)
- Peach (D-Tilt)
- Ness (D-Tilt)
- Sonic (D-Tilt)
- Bowser (Jab)
- Capt. Falcon (D-Tilt)
- Lucas (D-Tilt)
Group 4: Situational follow-ups (see chart).
- Marth
- Squirtle
- Wolf
- Wario
Group 5: No follow-ups. D-Tilt only when they try to attack.
- Falco
- Ganondorf
- Lucario
.....The Chart.....
