A tech for surviving better against Horizontal KOs

Doval · Apr 30, 2008

tl;dr version: air dodge to jump sooner.

First off, I don't think this has been covered in any thread, but if it has, my apologies. You can call this a technique, a game mechanic, an "advanced tech," whatever. I don't think it's terribly advanced, but that's just me. Anyways...

Many of you've probably noticed that when you get launched far by a strong attack, you can air dodge shortly after being launched, even though you can't jump or use B moves yet. If you haven't done it yourself, you may have seen an NPC do it. In any case, the point is that the game allows you to do: A) any aerial; B) your character's Z-air/Z-tether, if any; or C) air dodge, MUCH earlier than your character should come out of stun. This is why characters with Z-tethers can still tether edges as they fly by, even if they've been hit so hard they'd die. The tethering thing aside, this fact on its own won't save you. Air dodging won't slow you down, and aerials that stop your momentum or make you dive downwards stop messing with your momentum when you're launched at high speeds.

Here's the thing. As M2K mentioned in his character weight thread, doing your mid-air jump slows you down, assuming you were holding forward of course. However, if your % is high enough, your mid-air jump can come out too late, or you can die before your character even gets the chance to jump. If you air dodge (or use an aerial, but for most characters air dodging lasts less than any aerial they can use) you'll be able to do any action you want after the dodge ends, including jumping. This lets you jump sooner, and lets you last (more or less) an extra 10% against horizontal KOs. It's not a huge difference, but every bit counts. This is pretty much useless against vertical KOs though.

As far as I know this doesn't have a name, but if you guys are going to name it at least make it something relevant like "stun canceling" or "early jumping" or something.

Zankoku · Apr 30, 2008

This is interesting; Have you done any solid testing to verify this?

I'd like to know if it actually is practical to air-dodge immediately, or if by the time the air-dodge ends you'd've been out of hitstun anyway.

Doval · Apr 30, 2008

I'd like to know if it actually is practical to air-dodge immediately, or if by the time the air-dodge ends you'd've been out of hitstun anyway.

As far as I can tell, you'll always be able to act sooner with air dodging than if you wait for stun. I have tested (and confirmed) with a handful of other characters, but I've only bothered to write down numbers for Zero Suit Samus. Here's the numbers for her:
% needed to KO ZSS if the player jumps as soon as stun wears off: 133%
% needed to KO ZSS if the player air dodges (up-air works too) and then jumps: 140%
Same as above, but replacing the mid-air jump with her Flip Jump (Down B): 143%

The attack used was Mario's D-smash against a Zero Suit Samus standing at the middle of Final Destination, no DI used. It's pretty easy to test in Training Mode. I don't see why it would vary by character, since they all have to traverse the same distance to die, and I don't think their air dodge duration varies much.

P.S. Zero Suit Samus's Flip Jump is a special case, because it activates instantly and sends her forward more than a normal air jump. Other characters don't seem to be able to use their B moves after the air dodge to improve their recovery further; they just have too much momentum and the move either fails to halt you at those %'s, or activates too slowly.

EDIT: Oh yeah, it's also a good habit to get into because you can't bounce off of walls or roofs if you're doing an attack or air dodge, or in a state of freefall. May not be wise in Teams, though, because colliding with another person will gimp your speed much more than this.

Rampage · Apr 30, 2008

I've been air dodging after getting hit for a long time now. I didn't think it helped much but I did it regardless.
as for a name...what about DovalJump? lol

Ban3 · Apr 30, 2008

ill call it a game mechanic XD

Fredd · Apr 30, 2008

Including the air dodge and jump,
I find holding the control stick perpendicular to the way you`re being hit reduces the distance you are travel.
[Aka, Directional Influence]
As opposed to holding the control stick in the total opposite direction.

Dark Sonic · Apr 30, 2008

I think Sonic's neutral B stops horizontal momentum. Sonic's side B also slows horizontal momentum.

It should also be noted that tether recovery characters can airdodge and then immediately up B if they're close enough to the ledge when the airdodge ends.

What I really want to know is if Sonic's up B stops horizontal momentum as well (you normally stop moving sideways when you activate it, but I've never activated it directly after a powerfull hit though). I wouldn't be able to test this myself until the weekend though.

@Fredd-already known. It's called DI. And it doesn't actually change how far you are sent, only what angle you are sent at. Read http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218

Fredd · Apr 30, 2008

Sonic Wave said:
I think Sonic's neutral B stops horizontal momentum. Sonic's side B also slows horizontal momentum.

It should also be noted that tether recovery characters can airdodge and then immediately up B if they're close enough to the ledge when the airdodge ends.

What I really want to know is if Sonic's up B stops horizontal momentum as well (you normally stop moving sideways when you activate it, but I've never activated it directly after a powerfull hit though). I wouldn't be able to test this myself until the weekend though.

@Fredd-already known. It's called DI. And it doesn't actually change how far you are sent, only what angle you are sent at. Read http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218

Yeah, that`s what I meant.
- angle

Doval · Apr 30, 2008

@Rampage: Nah, naming it after myself would be silly for many, many reasons. Since it appears this truly was a "new" technique, and it should have a name so it can be easily referred to, I'll call it "Stun Shortening" unless there's any objections. I feel it's accurate and descriptive, and there's too many techs with "cancel" in their name to call it Stun Canceling.

@Fredd: So we're clear, I don't mean to DI the attack in the opposite direction it sends you. The correct way to DI is indeed perpendicular to the attack's usual trajectory; however, after you've been launched, you should be holding forward. If you don't, your jump won't slow you down, or, if you're at lower %'s and don't need to jump to live, you'll continue to freefall away from the edge after you become unstunned.

@Sonic Wave: You'll have to test it yourself. Most B moves don't behave properly at high speeds. For example, Fox's Reflector normally halts all aerial movement, but at high speeds, he still retains some horizontal movement, and he gets a noticeable upwards push. Your character will also usually continue to "skid" backwards even during the start-up of moves that move your character, so if the move doesn't activate immediately, it's usually useless. Fox's Reflector, Kirby's Stone and Hammer, and Meta Knight's Drill Rush and Mach Tornado all proved ineffective at stopping the character's movement.

Like I said, Zero Suit Samus's Flip Jump is an exception because it's basically a more horizontal mid-air jump. But try regardless, you might find something that works. I'm just saying, don't get your hopes up.

Miller · Apr 30, 2008

Me and my crew thought we found this, We named it AMC (Air Momentum Cancel). AMC was supposed to reduce the hit lag, and decrease the distance you flew. What we found out it was just a result of stale moves, making us think that AMCing made the distance you flew even shorter.

But the whole jumping part of the speculation, Its been mentioned before in various threads, as well as using midair moves to stop your ascent.

But TBH, I never thought of combining the 2, and even 3 together at once, thanks for bringing it to my attention and everyone elses

Onichi · Apr 30, 2008

Subscribed, just so i can remember to try and work this into habit. Unfortunately this doesn't help Pit more then anyone else, but it sounds like a good habit to keep. However if i get better as Toon Link and use him more this will be useful.

Hell I already did this from time to time after a mis-timed spot dodge. ><
Just have to break the counter-intuitive nature from Melee.

Thunder865 · Apr 30, 2008

I found myself intuitively doing this, even though I read that supposedly it doesn't change your momentum. After investigating why I was doing it, I noticed the jump reaction time, as Doval pointed out, but also you get to DI more during the duration of the fall. And, you get more effective DI when you aren't tumbling, right? I thought maybe that was another reason I was doing it.

All I know is when I forget to do it, I die more often, and when I do it, I'm able to come back from the brink of destruction, which is great for surprising overly cocky opponents who taunt too early, sometimes even netting me a KO if their damage is as high as mine. Thanks for confirming that I wasn't airdodging for no reason. ^^;

And, you say I can airdodge/Z-tether if I get launched past an edge and latch on? That's awesome, I've gotta give that a shot sometime @_@

ynomrahnsguht · Apr 30, 2008

i naturally been doing this forever.

Skalor · Apr 30, 2008

I naturally airdoged after being hit but not always did the jump. My friends asked whether the air dodge helps and well i have my answer now.

Thanks a lot for sharing this! I will be testing (and most likely using it) soon!

SamuraiPanda · Apr 30, 2008

I, too, have intuitively been doing this, but I didn't know you could do an aerial to a jump instead of an airdodge (well, I guess that doesn't really matter much anyways). But I have a problem with everyone saying that airdodging, even without the jump, after getting hit doesn't matter. I might just be imagining things, but in my experience, airdodging w/o jumping does help when I get hit. So after thinking about why, I realized that the most likely explanation is that due to the airdodge being done at an earlier time than when you should be able to get out of hitstun, airdodging allows your DI to matter more. So, if I'm right, if you're not DIing when you get hit, and you airdodge, that wont help. But if you're DIing towards the stage when you get hit and you airdodge while still DIing, it will DI more than without the airdodge. Does anybody have a few minutes to test this out and see if its true?

Zankoku · Apr 30, 2008

SamuraiPanda said:
But if you're DIing towards the stage when you get hit and you airdodge while still DIing, it will DI more than without the airdodge. Does anybody have a few minutes to test this out and see if its true?

We haven't done this with horizontal attacks, but the Rest, which is a vertical killing attack, only had a difference of 1% on airdodge occasionally, whereas aerials could delay the Rest's KO % by over 10% in some cases.

SamuraiPanda · Apr 30, 2008

So basically you're saying that aerials not only allow you to move earlier but also help move you towards the stage better? And does that work for all aerial attacks, or only ones that have some sort of forward momentum?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I just thought of something. I've tried jumping off the top with moves like ROB's up-B, but it was impossible to do, whereas I think I was at the top (jumping at the top of the fin on Corneria after footstooling someone when I finished both jumps, then doing the up-B all the way up). So if some moves prevent you from jumping yourself off the top (or in Sonic's FS's case, off the sides) what if you airdodge into that move after getting hit? Given, it will probably do nothing since the developers thought of that, but if it worked that would be incredible for some characters.

Testing crap like this with only one person sucks >_<

Crizthakidd · Apr 30, 2008

im going to go test this as im in training mode right now.

altho this was instinct to me to airdodge immidiaetly after getting smashed lol then do whatever you can do slwo that momentun. Di + this helps a lot and ive seen a MK survive an attack that the ike didint and both were at the same %. why? because MK used his airdoge imideaitly followed by his jump. then an arial. either way combined with Di this is jus oging to make brawl slower and have pple not die until 140+ lol GGs!

Doval · Apr 30, 2008

I'm quite certain that air dodging won't allow you to freefall against the direction of the knockback (I don't like calling air movement DI since it's not really DI) earlier or "better." If you don't jump after the air dodge, you will die as you normally would, even if you hold forward on the analog stick. Further proof lies in the fact that when you air dodge normally, you have normal horizontal movement (can't fastfall, but you can move left or right to your heart's content.) If you air dodge after a strong hit, be it vertical or horizontal, you're still bound to the attack's knockback trajectory all throughout the air dodge. Air Dodging just gives the sensation of helping you move because many attacks, at non-fatal %'s, will keep your character stunned even after it's decelerated to a full stop. It's very annoying to see your character "hang" in the air like that, yet it won't jump.

In the case of 1% differences in Vertical KOs, this may just be caused by changes in the character's position. EDIT: Rather, I meant to say minor changes in the character's posture, not that the character would literally be in a different position. The animation for tumbling is different than for air dodging and freefalling, and such minor differences could explain the 1% difference.

EDIT2: Panda, I tried your little experiment with ROB using Up B off of the top of the screen. ROB dies from Mario's Up Smash at 129% off of FD. At 128%, doing air dodge to Up B won't kill him. At 129%, doing air dodge to Up B, ROB initiates the Up B but dies immediately afterwards. Seems to me the game can tell when you're still "bound" to the knockback trajectory (and will kill you appropriately regardless of your current state), and when you're simply in a state of "freefall" that happens to have an initial velocity.

Crizthakidd · Apr 30, 2008

ohh okay thanks. will be using this more often

SamuraiPanda · Apr 30, 2008

Doval said:
EDIT2: Panda, I tried your little experiment with ROB using Up B off of the top of the screen. ROB dies from Mario's Up Smash at 129% off of FD. At 128%, doing air dodge to Up B won't kill him. At 129%, doing air dodge to Up B, ROB initiates the Up B but dies immediately afterwards. Seems to me the game can tell when you're still "bound" to the knockback trajectory (and will kill you appropriately regardless of your current state), and when you're simply in a state of "freefall" that happens to have an initial velocity.

Can't say I'm surprised that it didn't work (would've been too broken anyways :D) but thanks for trying for me.

Doval said:
I'm quite certain that air dodging won't allow you to freefall against the direction of the knockback (I don't like calling air movement DI since it's not really DI) earlier or "better." If you don't jump after the air dodge, you will die as you normally would, even if you hold forward on the analog stick. Further proof lies in the fact that when you air dodge normally, you have normal horizontal movement (can't fastfall, but you can move left or right to your heart's content.) If you air dodge after a strong hit, be it vertical or horizontal, you're still bound to the attack's knockback trajectory all throughout the air dodge. Air Dodging just gives the sensation of helping you move because many attacks, at non-fatal %'s, will keep your character stunned even after it's decelerated to a full stop. It's very annoying to see your character "hang" in the air like that, yet it won't jump.

In the case of 1% differences in Vertical KOs, this may just be caused by changes in the character's position. EDIT: Rather, I meant to say minor changes in the character's posture, not that the character would literally be in a different position. The animation for tumbling is different than for air dodging and freefalling, and such minor differences could explain the 1% difference.

Then if I'm wrong I guess the only reason that I've noticed a difference is that I always jump after the airdodge on instinct, so that changed my perspective on things.

Doval · Apr 30, 2008

No prob Panda. I did notice one odd thing, though - at 128%, if you use the air dodge to jump early, ROB will die. If you wait out the stun time, ROB won't die. It doesn't happen at 127%. May have something to do with the jump boosting your character's knockback before it ends. Doesn't have much relevance to the thread's topic, but I figured you'd be interested.

Ryanarius · Apr 30, 2008

i think I'm completely wrong on this but I would like someone to clear it up anyways. I've been under the impression that in brawl the knockout zone is an octagon (I got this mostly from the explosion animation when you die) so if you get hit into a corner of the octagon and then jump you will jump off the screen and die when if you had just not jumped immediately you would have lived.

If I'm wrong (which I probably am) this is pretty cool.

DavieBoy · Apr 30, 2008

I am going to throw this question in here as well, It is known that "Stall-than-fall" cut down vertical knock back - but dose it also work on horizontal? I know to DI on a horizontal attack you go up or down (perpendicular) so it would make sense that it would since it forces you downward. Any way I didn't test this at all was just wondering.

Good find btw.

Doval · Apr 30, 2008

@Ryanarius: I believe the corner explosions are purely cosmetic. I've never jumped off the top of the screen.

@DavieBoy: So-called "Stall-then-fall" D-airs will not slow you down (vertically nor horizontally) in any way at the speeds that an attack with the potential to KO you would send you.

Also, forgot to address this:

Thunder865 said:
And, you say I can airdodge/Z-tether if I get launched past an edge and latch on? That's awesome, I've gotta give that a shot sometime @_@

It's possible, but not very plausible. Most Z-tethers (EDIT: actually, all tethers...) have only a very narrow "edge detection" range above the edge, so the only way to pull it off is for it to be an attack that sends you at a low angle, and DI'ing it down so you pass right over the edge. If you fail, you're screwed, since DI'ing downwards is a very bad idea.

EDIT: In retrospect, you could use a Z-tether to save yourself from a meteor, since you'll pass in front and below the edge anyways.

Adriel · May 1, 2008

So does this make DI'ing perpendicular when you are sent horizontal to the left or right useless? If this does work I guess you can prevent yourself from completely being hit off the screen, but wouldn't it make you a lot easier to edgeguard if you've already used your second jump, especially if your character has only a tether recovery?

Edit- Oops, I think I read this wrong. Do you hold forward only while using your second jump, or DI completely left or right?

Doval · May 1, 2008

No, this doesn't make DI useless in any way or form. This technique will only allow you to live around 7-10% longer than usual. It's not a negligible difference, but it's a far smaller difference than not DI'ing properly would make. Failing to DI will definitely get you killed early.

Would you be easier to edgeguard you if you've already used your second jump? Yes. But it's better than dying. If you know for sure you won't die, then by all means, save your jump so you can get more distance. But eventually you'll reach a % where the only way to survive the hit will be to air dodge and jump ASAP.

Vro · May 1, 2008

Interesting in that air dodging allows for other actions to come out quicker. Good find.

henrytran · May 1, 2008

This is a great find for Link and Toon Link users. I don't normally use air-dodge first after a hard hit. Link/TL will often pull a bomb during their flight. Being able to pull it out earlier might mean we get to juggle with them a bit more/earlier whle flying around. Thanks OP!

salaboB · May 1, 2008

Something just occurred to me -- you mentioned that Zamus' down-B has a better impact than her normal jump, does that mean that Yoshi's second jump also has a higher impact on survivability than most other character's second jumps?

Doval · May 1, 2008

No prob. But I want to point out that air dodging will only allow you to act sooner if the attack's stun is high enough. At low %'s, you'll end up acting later than usual. These numbers are completely fictional, but it'll help to understand why.

Let's pretend the game lets you do aerials or air dodges when you've been stunned for half of the stun's duration. Let's say the whole air dodge animation takes 3 seconds. If a weaker attack only stuns you for 4 seconds, then you'll be able to air dodge at 2 secs, but you'll finish the air dodge on the 5th second. The attack has to send you a reasonable distance (approximately from the center of FD to close to the off-screen zones) for air dodging to start having an advantage in terms of acting earlier. But either way, at low %'s you're not at an immediate risk of death.

salaboB said:
Something just occurred to me -- you mentioned that Zamus' down-B has a better impact than her normal jump, does that mean that Yoshi's second jump also has a higher impact on survivability than most other character's second jumps?

My gut tells me it'd be worse, since Yoshi's second jump doesn't propel you instantly. It's kind of the opposite of normal jumps, starting slow and picking up speed near the peak. But yes, characters with good horizontal movement on their jumps should be able to slow themselves down better than characters with bad horizontal movement, like Fox or Ike for example.

EDIT: Never mind, though Yoshi's second jump is slow to accelerate him vertically, it's OK horizontally. Here's the numbers for Yoshi, again using Mario's D-smash from the center of FD, and no DI.

% needed to KO Yoshi with no jumps: 149%
% needed to KO Yoshi if he jumps after becoming unstunned: 154%
% needed to KO Yoshi if he air dodges and jumps: 162%

DethSmasher · May 1, 2008

@ doval

Doval said:
@DavieBoy: So-called "Stall-then-fall" D-airs will not slow you down (vertically nor horizontally) in any way at the speeds that an attack with the potential to KO you would send you.EDIT: In retrospect, you could use a Z-tether to save yourself from a meteor, since you'll pass in front and below the edge anyways.

dairs not saving you from vertical kos is half right, when you double stick for beter DI with the cstick you automatically do dair, and double sticking definitly does help on not geting kod, i can survive as diddy up to 140+ a good part of the time just double sticking.* and the thing about tether about meteor is 100% correct, our match was too long but i spiked by friend playing as olimar with didy at at least 80% and he immedialy up+b and he tethered and survived even thjough he was in the lower magnifying glas and probably past the death line. his pikmen werent even touching or anything, so i know that olimars up+b at least cancels being in falling mode when he tethers and is past the lower death line(like samuri was checking with rob, which he found didn't work, the game still knows youi are in falling mode so you die when you pass it)

so just some interesting input

xxvic1ousxx · May 1, 2008

Yeah I learned this from watching the lv 9 CPUs play. I've noticed that they DI really well in addition to air dodging shortly after being smashed in order to keep from dying at high damage percentages. Of course this only works up to about 160%-175%, depending on your characters weight and only on horizontal flight.

I've also learned, from watching some of my roommates play, you can use dairs to keep yourself from dying vertically. Though I wouldnt call this extensive testing, as I was only observing (not actually in the match). I managed to gather some confirmation about how this works. Immediately after you've been sent into vertical/ diagnol ( closer to vertical) flight, dair (c-sticking is a bit easier than down A IMO) and this this should slow you down dramatically and keep you from flying off the top. I've seen this done mostly with floaty characters such as: Pit, Ness, Lucas, Jpuff, Kirby, MetaKnight, etc. I've tried with characters such as Marth, Ike and Snake and found that it is not as effective.

Zankoku · May 1, 2008

dair can save you from KOs, but only because they happen to be aerials and all aerials diminish your momentum to some extent.

xxvic1ousxx · May 1, 2008

Yeah, is it me or does it seem a bit more difficult to get the down air off with non-floaty characters?

Doval · May 1, 2008

Ankoku, that's not true. Most aerials don't affect your air movement at all, and I haven't been able to find a single aerial that will prevent death, not even Lucario/Sonic/Sheik/Zero Suit Samus/Toon Link's d-airs. When I was testing my tech out, using an aerial on its own would still result in death at the %'s where you need to jump to save yourself, and they didn't make a difference vertically either. I'm sorry to say that you're all experiencing a placebo.

@DethSmasher: Double sticking is only good for getting an extra Smash DI with the C-stick, it won't make you d-air automatically. Also, I was testing out that Olimar thing you mentioned (it doesn't make sense that he should be able to cancel a spike with a B move...) and oh ****, I'm quite certain now that Meteor Cancel wasn't removed, it just works very differently from Melee.

Zankoku · May 1, 2008

Lucario/Sonic/Sheik/ZSS/Toon Link's dairs are all some of the weaker ones in terms of momentum canceling. Try Mario or Snake dair against a vertical KO attack.

Doval · May 1, 2008

I just did, Mario and Snake died from Mario's Up Smash at the exact same % they would if they don't d-air.

DethSmasher · May 1, 2008

@doval, ok maybe i am jsut imagining on the dair think lol but the up+b out of diddy's dair is true, my brother mainds dedede and he up+b cancels my dair spike every time, thats mostly why imo dedede is a didy counter, it was the best olimar thing i have ever seen, i dont think i will ever be able to replicate it, but like me and 4 friends saw it, because i got ledge guarded by the pikmen and died from it.

Doval · May 1, 2008

DethSmasher, I believe you about the Up-B out of the spike thing. It turns out you can Meteor Cancel after all. I just started a thread on it here. This is a huge find!

A tech for surviving better against Horizontal KOs

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