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Weekly Character Discussion: Game & Watch
- Thread starter Overswarm
- Start date
I love Game and Watch in Brawl. He doesn't get overly gimped by most projectiles for fear of teh bucket, and the turtle makes a great approach, since it can break through the shield nicely. His dair being able to move freely in the air during mid-attack makes for good mindgames, but the attack when landed has some noticeable lag. I just wish his smashes came out faster.
Also, I want to bring up this post. I thought this was a pretty well written post about countering the turtle.
Also, I want to bring up this post. I thought this was a pretty well written post about countering the turtle.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
To elaborate on the turtle...
If you perfect shield the first hit, you won't get shield poked.
Also, if you DO get hit, you can smash DI up and towards G&W and not get hit by the last "knockback" part of the turtle. It makes it a very dangerous move for G&W to rush with!
To elaborate on teh key, his down-air...
If G&W up+b's and cancels it with his key, he hits the ground.
If he double jumps quickly then up+b's (not full height of second jump) and down-airs, he will hover in mid-air for a moment, allowing you to use another aerial or even another dair.
If you perfect shield the first hit, you won't get shield poked.
Also, if you DO get hit, you can smash DI up and towards G&W and not get hit by the last "knockback" part of the turtle. It makes it a very dangerous move for G&W to rush with!
To elaborate on teh key, his down-air...
If G&W up+b's and cancels it with his key, he hits the ground.
If he double jumps quickly then up+b's (not full height of second jump) and down-airs, he will hover in mid-air for a moment, allowing you to use another aerial or even another dair.
Arash
Smash Lord
the down smash hammers ****, as do all of his air attacks...
but, he is the lightest char in the game (tied with jigglypuff iirc) and excellent DI is required to play him. also his recovery rocks whether you come from really high or really low.
GW gets the "most improved" award by FAR
but, he is the lightest char in the game (tied with jigglypuff iirc) and excellent DI is required to play him. also his recovery rocks whether you come from really high or really low.
GW gets the "most improved" award by FAR
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
His down smash is insane. His nair comes out super quick, has a funky and big hitbox, and racks up damage super quick. Dtilt won't kill anymore, but it still comes out very quick and it's awesome for racking up damage and preventing ground approaches or attacks.
Down throw is amazing now and it can be very hard to tech, especially if you are mixing up your throws. If they don't IMMEDIATELY roll away after a dthrow, you can follow up with a dsmash. If they tend to roll away instantly you can dtilt or bucket before they can react. Down throw to bucket kills even the fattest characters around 70%.
G&W can gimp Lucas & Ness hardcore by jumping down next to them and doing an up B. It will make Lucas/Ness fly off to the side but the PK thunder will stay in the same spot.
His priority with the key is ridiculous. I've seen it go through all kinds of projectiles, sword attacks, etc. Same with his bair.
I think G&W is the best character in the game. He counters MK pretty well and there really isn't a bad matchup with him (except maybe Snake).
Down throw is amazing now and it can be very hard to tech, especially if you are mixing up your throws. If they don't IMMEDIATELY roll away after a dthrow, you can follow up with a dsmash. If they tend to roll away instantly you can dtilt or bucket before they can react. Down throw to bucket kills even the fattest characters around 70%.
G&W can gimp Lucas & Ness hardcore by jumping down next to them and doing an up B. It will make Lucas/Ness fly off to the side but the PK thunder will stay in the same spot.
His priority with the key is ridiculous. I've seen it go through all kinds of projectiles, sword attacks, etc. Same with his bair.
I think G&W is the best character in the game. He counters MK pretty well and there really isn't a bad matchup with him (except maybe Snake).
Kyari
Smash Lord
Man, Game and Watch is a great character and I am happy to see him at what we will assume is the top now ^_^. I always wanted to make him my main in Melee, but he was just too light and had a very, very crappy shield, very slow roll, mediocre spot dodge, not very useful throws (mildly so), among his other faults, and now they buffed almost every attack in his arsenal PLUS gave him a bright baby blue costume to annoy the piss out of a lot of people due to how much it contrasts with the rest of the game... I just didn't have the balls that DireVulcan had, haha. Anyway, I wanna discuss a few of his moves at length (I told you guys I wanted to say a lot about GnW, and maybe this is too detailed, but even if it is, it's fine. At least in my opinion ^^).
EDIT: Sorry if my text looks a little rushed, I tried to make it as detailed as possible but I didn't have anything prepared before I saw this thread open and I'm really eager to get this information out).
Character Summary
If you don't want to call Metaknight the new Sheik, then give that title to this subhuman being from a universe of only two dimensions. His attacks practically blink out due to his overly cartoony and liquid crystal game-based nature, and this makes every one of his attacks very quick to execute. Moreover, most of his moves end swiftly too, which means it's hard to punish a good Game and Watch (most noticeable moves to punish are f-air and f-smash, but even the f-smash is still an amazing move). Because he uses toys and other objects to attack most of the time, almost every move he uses will have decent to exceptional priority as well. Excellent recovery, and having an excellent recovery while also being one of the floatiest characters in the game means you've got a great edge game. His only drawback is his weight, and maybe his grab range or something. Also, his Manhole (d-tilt) was nerfed, sadly. If Game and Watch fails to maintain Top/S tier status I'll be surprised, and if he ever dips below Upper/A tier, I'll be shocked. Anyway, onto moves:
Dthrow
Among the things LeeHarris said about Game and Watch's dthrow, the move just gives him tech chasing opportunities like almost no other character has in this game, and for those of you who honed your tech chasing using Sheik, Falcon, Fox, among others in Melee, one of Melee's best tactics can be reapplied in Brawl amazingly well here. Dthrow into <move> is good, like dsmash, dtilt, ftilt, et cetera, and a lot of times it's one of the first things you start using, but if you can predict someone's techrolling patterns you can repeatedly grab them and eventually land a move that really hurts. Most people avoid Game and Watch's dthrow into dsmash by just rolling at the right time, which is possible even without teching. But if you force them to mix up their techrolling, you increase the chance that on one of the dthrows they will simply wait a second before rolling out or teching in place, which gives you the dsmash. Good tech-chasing is a scary thing against a good Game and Watch. In some matches, I've gotten around 50% racked on via dthrow tech chasing depending on their character, and that's before considering what a dthrow to bucket can do to them (usually death unless it's quite a heavy character at below 20%).
Dash A
As we should all know by now, Game and Watch has preserved his insane priority on a lot of his moves, in fact - pretty much all of his moves, as LeeHarris pointed out with his key, but his dash attack has a significantly ridiculous hitbox considering the part of his body he's using. The dash attack can cancel every projectile except Rob's and Wolf's laser, Olimar's Pikmin, and one other character (i can't remember) so it's a great move to use if you see a projectile flying out while dashing, as you maintain your position with no move endlag. This move also clanks with TONS of actual attacks including many smashes, so it's a move you can truly safely throw out in a match. The thing I like to do is use it against a shielder and dash attack early (before being within grab range) and if they try attacking me, it's almost a 60% chance that it clanks their attack (it depends on the character and the specific attack they use). Being within this close proximity gives Game and Watch his chance to attack with one of his very fast and/or powerful moves, like d-smash, f-smash, d-tilt, f-tilt, neutral A (VERY fast), etc. It's just a move that a lot of people probably underuse, but it shouldn't be overused due to the inherent risk of being shieldgrabbed.
Turtle
Certainly his most useful move by far, with its reach, priority, ability to eat shields, and very low endlag. I am sure this move is going to be discussed ad nauseum, and already has been brought up multiple times so I won't dig into it, just mention that it's really good.
Trampoline (Up+B)
This move is ridiculously weird sometimes. Due to the parachute you get after you use it, it's just a ****ing great move to use to edge-guard and try to get a horizontal KO (Game and Watch relies on horizontal KO's for everything except his upsmash). The last time I played against KishPrime I got at least two KO's with this move (not the same matches) and he was surprised. Also, if this doesn't kill them, depending on the character weight and their percentage, you can sometimes land a fair afterward (although that's slightly risky due to losing the parachute). But I have followed up with the fair and made it back safely, you just have to remember to be close enough to the stage.
U-air (wind...yness?)
This move is just downright hilarious while still being effective in its own way. While you won't receive a lot of kills with it, it can stop projectiles, severely frustrate the landing of many characters, and can also lead to potential kills with other moves, or if nothing else lead into another attack. While the airdodge does avoid the vertical boost, air dodging can be a bad thing for them to do if they do it at the wrong time and let you hit them right after it's over. The move also halts the downward momentum that many characters receive from their d-airs. Hurtling projectiles back into the air and stopping a lot of good anti-air moves from connecting make this move a great juggling move. A weird but nonetheless interesting property of his uair is that even if it doesn't connect, the wind alone has the ability to take back your costume from Kirby, or at least that's what I concluded through testing it in matches.
Bucket
I don't know how often this move was used in Melee, but the bucket in this game is absolutely FIERCE. No character wants to give him a free bucket by spamming energy projectiles, and if they get hit with it, it can KO almost anyone at 0%, and still gets tons of KO's at amazingly low percents even with DI. Does about 62% to Zelda after receiving her Din's Fires, similar damage from Pit's arrows. Apparently also absorbs the stars from Dedede's up B and Yoshi's down B, which isn't that useful but still fun to know. The invisible range of this move is just insane too, it can reach a large area that completely surrounds him, which means that if you pull out a bucket on an energy projectile, you're always going to catch it before it hits you unless you just don't pull the move out before it connects with your character. And as long as you keep your distance while using this move, you aren't at a lot of risk, since most people that throw a projectile at you are from a distance anyway. I know that if I have 2/3's of a bucket saved up and I'm not at a very high percent yet, I'll gladly trade receiving a smash for the final third. This move is so fast and stays out for so long that if your opponent isn't being very careful at avoiding it, they are going to die. Did I mention that you keep whatever is in your bucket if you lose a stock?
Anyway, this is all I can think of wanting to contribute to for now, maybe I'll pop back in here in a couple of days and discuss how he goes about mauling some of the best characters, and who he has trouble against.
EDIT: Sorry if my text looks a little rushed, I tried to make it as detailed as possible but I didn't have anything prepared before I saw this thread open and I'm really eager to get this information out).
Character Summary
If you don't want to call Metaknight the new Sheik, then give that title to this subhuman being from a universe of only two dimensions. His attacks practically blink out due to his overly cartoony and liquid crystal game-based nature, and this makes every one of his attacks very quick to execute. Moreover, most of his moves end swiftly too, which means it's hard to punish a good Game and Watch (most noticeable moves to punish are f-air and f-smash, but even the f-smash is still an amazing move). Because he uses toys and other objects to attack most of the time, almost every move he uses will have decent to exceptional priority as well. Excellent recovery, and having an excellent recovery while also being one of the floatiest characters in the game means you've got a great edge game. His only drawback is his weight, and maybe his grab range or something. Also, his Manhole (d-tilt) was nerfed, sadly. If Game and Watch fails to maintain Top/S tier status I'll be surprised, and if he ever dips below Upper/A tier, I'll be shocked. Anyway, onto moves:
Dthrow
Among the things LeeHarris said about Game and Watch's dthrow, the move just gives him tech chasing opportunities like almost no other character has in this game, and for those of you who honed your tech chasing using Sheik, Falcon, Fox, among others in Melee, one of Melee's best tactics can be reapplied in Brawl amazingly well here. Dthrow into <move> is good, like dsmash, dtilt, ftilt, et cetera, and a lot of times it's one of the first things you start using, but if you can predict someone's techrolling patterns you can repeatedly grab them and eventually land a move that really hurts. Most people avoid Game and Watch's dthrow into dsmash by just rolling at the right time, which is possible even without teching. But if you force them to mix up their techrolling, you increase the chance that on one of the dthrows they will simply wait a second before rolling out or teching in place, which gives you the dsmash. Good tech-chasing is a scary thing against a good Game and Watch. In some matches, I've gotten around 50% racked on via dthrow tech chasing depending on their character, and that's before considering what a dthrow to bucket can do to them (usually death unless it's quite a heavy character at below 20%).
Dash A
As we should all know by now, Game and Watch has preserved his insane priority on a lot of his moves, in fact - pretty much all of his moves, as LeeHarris pointed out with his key, but his dash attack has a significantly ridiculous hitbox considering the part of his body he's using. The dash attack can cancel every projectile except Rob's and Wolf's laser, Olimar's Pikmin, and one other character (i can't remember) so it's a great move to use if you see a projectile flying out while dashing, as you maintain your position with no move endlag. This move also clanks with TONS of actual attacks including many smashes, so it's a move you can truly safely throw out in a match. The thing I like to do is use it against a shielder and dash attack early (before being within grab range) and if they try attacking me, it's almost a 60% chance that it clanks their attack (it depends on the character and the specific attack they use). Being within this close proximity gives Game and Watch his chance to attack with one of his very fast and/or powerful moves, like d-smash, f-smash, d-tilt, f-tilt, neutral A (VERY fast), etc. It's just a move that a lot of people probably underuse, but it shouldn't be overused due to the inherent risk of being shieldgrabbed.
Turtle
Certainly his most useful move by far, with its reach, priority, ability to eat shields, and very low endlag. I am sure this move is going to be discussed ad nauseum, and already has been brought up multiple times so I won't dig into it, just mention that it's really good.
Trampoline (Up+B)
This move is ridiculously weird sometimes. Due to the parachute you get after you use it, it's just a ****ing great move to use to edge-guard and try to get a horizontal KO (Game and Watch relies on horizontal KO's for everything except his upsmash). The last time I played against KishPrime I got at least two KO's with this move (not the same matches) and he was surprised. Also, if this doesn't kill them, depending on the character weight and their percentage, you can sometimes land a fair afterward (although that's slightly risky due to losing the parachute). But I have followed up with the fair and made it back safely, you just have to remember to be close enough to the stage.
U-air (wind...yness?)
This move is just downright hilarious while still being effective in its own way. While you won't receive a lot of kills with it, it can stop projectiles, severely frustrate the landing of many characters, and can also lead to potential kills with other moves, or if nothing else lead into another attack. While the airdodge does avoid the vertical boost, air dodging can be a bad thing for them to do if they do it at the wrong time and let you hit them right after it's over. The move also halts the downward momentum that many characters receive from their d-airs. Hurtling projectiles back into the air and stopping a lot of good anti-air moves from connecting make this move a great juggling move. A weird but nonetheless interesting property of his uair is that even if it doesn't connect, the wind alone has the ability to take back your costume from Kirby, or at least that's what I concluded through testing it in matches.
Bucket
I don't know how often this move was used in Melee, but the bucket in this game is absolutely FIERCE. No character wants to give him a free bucket by spamming energy projectiles, and if they get hit with it, it can KO almost anyone at 0%, and still gets tons of KO's at amazingly low percents even with DI. Does about 62% to Zelda after receiving her Din's Fires, similar damage from Pit's arrows. Apparently also absorbs the stars from Dedede's up B and Yoshi's down B, which isn't that useful but still fun to know. The invisible range of this move is just insane too, it can reach a large area that completely surrounds him, which means that if you pull out a bucket on an energy projectile, you're always going to catch it before it hits you unless you just don't pull the move out before it connects with your character. And as long as you keep your distance while using this move, you aren't at a lot of risk, since most people that throw a projectile at you are from a distance anyway. I know that if I have 2/3's of a bucket saved up and I'm not at a very high percent yet, I'll gladly trade receiving a smash for the final third. This move is so fast and stays out for so long that if your opponent isn't being very careful at avoiding it, they are going to die. Did I mention that you keep whatever is in your bucket if you lose a stock?
Anyway, this is all I can think of wanting to contribute to for now, maybe I'll pop back in here in a couple of days and discuss how he goes about mauling some of the best characters, and who he has trouble against.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2005
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- 2,617
hi this is omegablackmage posting on OWM's account since ive yet to be considered for sbr acceptance. I main game and watch i figured i might be able to throw in some input.
i would say first of all, check out my game and watch guide, it has all the extensive research i've done on game and watch including matchups and some stage analysis.
To start, his kill moves are all quite strong and all have their own uses. Fsmash isn't entirely fast, but has a lot of duration which will last through spot dodges. Dsmash, as already mentioned is incredibly strong killing very early when sweetspotted from above and at an awkward downward direction when not sweetspotted to the side. The upsmash, although a little slow kills very early and i believe is the third strongest in the game with a lot of priority.
Aerials are all extremely useful.
Dair is great for speeding up your descent and the fastfalling of it is cancellable by pressing down. Dair can also kill upwards at high percent and spike downward when hitting with the initial hitboxes. Its quick and has a landing hitbox to it. Because of its high priority, it can cancel projectiles such as snakes upsmash and go through attacks like olimars upsmash.
Fair is quite laggy upon landing so i wouldn't advise using it near the ground but it is still quite strong and can be used to edgeguard and kill with.
Bair as mentioned is very good at sheild stabbing. As far as i know marth can counter it from a sheild with an upb or snake with a grenade near him. It is capable of out spacing most grabs, including olimars. With smash DI it is possible to get out of it by pressing up a few times while in it. Its good for comboing and approaching, while doing a lot of damage.
Upair has the interesting push properties, which is nice but not particularly useful, only really good for mindgames thus far. Its quick and can kill sometimes if you can space it right (actual second hit box)
Neutral air is extremely good for combos as two to four of these can be chained together regularly to rack up a lot of damage. This will often lead to using an up b and then a fair out of that for a very damaging combo. Its great for getting pikmin off of gaw and it is nice because it has almost no landing lag that can be punished.
Grab game is great because the downthrow forces a tech. From this chasing can be done to have one of the more devastating grabs in the game. Dsmash finishes are quite common from these. Also a jab can be done out of the grab if they don't tech to force them to stand and to be grabbed again.
Dtilt has excellent reach and speed making it a great move to push opponents back with. Using this in conjunction with bairs, gaw becomes nearly impossible to approach. Its also good to use as an edgeguard against characters like ike and pit.
Uptilt is decent for slight combos into neutral airs, has good priority and speed.
Ftilt lasts a while and can sometimes lead to kills near the edge.
Neutral b is good for edgeguarding and pressure game, does decent damage and is relatively fast.
Hammers still perform the same, with nine hammers being a near 1hko
Down b catches many projectiles and seems to be much stronger now. Most projectiles when released will be 1hko's at a large range (this is much weaker in the air)
Up b is an excellent recovery move that is extremely difficult to gimp now. High priority and its good for comboing. Parachute can be attacked out of and if you cancel the move with an attack you will save your second jump provided it hasn't been used yet.
Game and Watches matchups are almost all in his favor. Only notable matchups are olimar, toon link, and marth at disadvantages. Snake is likely to be an even matchup. This will likely place game and watch very high on the tier list, at least upper maybe top depending on further advancements in the metagame.
As far as tournament placements go, Cosmo and Needle of Juntah have been placing well with him in the midwest. I placed 3rd at a Mass tournament beating KDJ in winners (he beat me in losers bracket), so he definitely has representation elsewhere. Other notable game and watch players will likely be velocity who playes in the northeast/ny area as well.
i would say first of all, check out my game and watch guide, it has all the extensive research i've done on game and watch including matchups and some stage analysis.
To start, his kill moves are all quite strong and all have their own uses. Fsmash isn't entirely fast, but has a lot of duration which will last through spot dodges. Dsmash, as already mentioned is incredibly strong killing very early when sweetspotted from above and at an awkward downward direction when not sweetspotted to the side. The upsmash, although a little slow kills very early and i believe is the third strongest in the game with a lot of priority.
Aerials are all extremely useful.
Dair is great for speeding up your descent and the fastfalling of it is cancellable by pressing down. Dair can also kill upwards at high percent and spike downward when hitting with the initial hitboxes. Its quick and has a landing hitbox to it. Because of its high priority, it can cancel projectiles such as snakes upsmash and go through attacks like olimars upsmash.
Fair is quite laggy upon landing so i wouldn't advise using it near the ground but it is still quite strong and can be used to edgeguard and kill with.
Bair as mentioned is very good at sheild stabbing. As far as i know marth can counter it from a sheild with an upb or snake with a grenade near him. It is capable of out spacing most grabs, including olimars. With smash DI it is possible to get out of it by pressing up a few times while in it. Its good for comboing and approaching, while doing a lot of damage.
Upair has the interesting push properties, which is nice but not particularly useful, only really good for mindgames thus far. Its quick and can kill sometimes if you can space it right (actual second hit box)
Neutral air is extremely good for combos as two to four of these can be chained together regularly to rack up a lot of damage. This will often lead to using an up b and then a fair out of that for a very damaging combo. Its great for getting pikmin off of gaw and it is nice because it has almost no landing lag that can be punished.
Grab game is great because the downthrow forces a tech. From this chasing can be done to have one of the more devastating grabs in the game. Dsmash finishes are quite common from these. Also a jab can be done out of the grab if they don't tech to force them to stand and to be grabbed again.
Dtilt has excellent reach and speed making it a great move to push opponents back with. Using this in conjunction with bairs, gaw becomes nearly impossible to approach. Its also good to use as an edgeguard against characters like ike and pit.
Uptilt is decent for slight combos into neutral airs, has good priority and speed.
Ftilt lasts a while and can sometimes lead to kills near the edge.
Neutral b is good for edgeguarding and pressure game, does decent damage and is relatively fast.
Hammers still perform the same, with nine hammers being a near 1hko
Down b catches many projectiles and seems to be much stronger now. Most projectiles when released will be 1hko's at a large range (this is much weaker in the air)
Up b is an excellent recovery move that is extremely difficult to gimp now. High priority and its good for comboing. Parachute can be attacked out of and if you cancel the move with an attack you will save your second jump provided it hasn't been used yet.
Game and Watches matchups are almost all in his favor. Only notable matchups are olimar, toon link, and marth at disadvantages. Snake is likely to be an even matchup. This will likely place game and watch very high on the tier list, at least upper maybe top depending on further advancements in the metagame.
As far as tournament placements go, Cosmo and Needle of Juntah have been placing well with him in the midwest. I placed 3rd at a Mass tournament beating KDJ in winners (he beat me in losers bracket), so he definitely has representation elsewhere. Other notable game and watch players will likely be velocity who playes in the northeast/ny area as well.
Kyari
Smash Lord
thank you for covering the dair ^^ i wanna mention that you can use the dair momentum cancel to trick out opponents who think they can shieldgrab you by slowing yourself down and moving out of reach, and then if you suspect that they assume you will slow it down and that the opponent will try to attack you from it, you can just use the fast version to catch them off guard out of their shield
D
Deleted member
Guest
at least he dies easily. no weight.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 5,517
I'd like to point out that downtilt isn't really that nerfed, it just has a different use now. It can clash hits with basically every attack, making it really safe to use. I know earlier today it stopped a pikachu's fsmash, and I believe I've also stopped Rob's upsmash with it as well.
Kyari
Smash Lord
Well as far as I can remember it still had lots of priority in Melee too, so to hear that it has more priority now is shocking to me... still though, I feel like I'd rather have the attack that lasts forever that you can stop it whenever you want with no lag though. But yeah, overall GnW's priority is just retardedly good in this game.
GAW's up air is brilliant at stopping the "fast falling" moves, like down airs of most. Our main GAW player here is great, can get hit with a good number of combos, and the down air comes to knock him away, he whips out up-air, avoids the blow and can then land and get back on track.
2d is 2 good.
2d is 2 good.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
One more cheesy one liner about G&W and the universe is going to implode.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
Rather than discuss how amazing G&W is until I truly believe he is the master of the first 2 dimensions (did the universe implode yet?), I want to go over how to beat him.
Depending on the weight list you look at, G&W is either the second or third easiest character in the game to KO off the top of the stage. I guess my main can be considered Snake right now, so I don't have too much trouble KOing G&W because of his up-tilt. Also, its fun to nade-sidestep the turtle and watch G&W suffer for it. Throw in his heaviness, and Snake really seems like one of the best counters against G&W. But I guess anybody that is good at killing upwards would be a good pick against G&W.
Also, I hear that the "Cypher grab" that works on Snake to eliminate his up-B also works on G&W, Sonic, and Pit. Although G&W and Pit are almost immune to this due to the auto-sweetspot.
Depending on the weight list you look at, G&W is either the second or third easiest character in the game to KO off the top of the stage. I guess my main can be considered Snake right now, so I don't have too much trouble KOing G&W because of his up-tilt. Also, its fun to nade-sidestep the turtle and watch G&W suffer for it. Throw in his heaviness, and Snake really seems like one of the best counters against G&W. But I guess anybody that is good at killing upwards would be a good pick against G&W.
Also, I hear that the "Cypher grab" that works on Snake to eliminate his up-B also works on G&W, Sonic, and Pit. Although G&W and Pit are almost immune to this due to the auto-sweetspot.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I think what you're referring to is aerial jumping. You do not get a 2nd jump back after being grabbed anymore, with the exception of a few characters.
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omegablackmage again
best way to beat gw is probably to have a good non energy based projectile game to counter his good range and priority. This is probably best pulled off by olimar, toon link, and snake (samus and link players will have to develop more to see if they counter at all). Beyond that your only hope is have more range than him so characters like zss, marth, and ike will have to play very tight spacing games to compete.
I agree that in general your going to want to kill him off the top of the stage, his recovery will almost get him back from anywhere. Characters with energy projectiles may be able to learn to bait buckets if their willing to risk the eventual outcome to get hits in. Learning to make your rolling/teching game unpredictable will also be key in not taking too much damage against gw's throws. Di'ing his bair and nairs will also be critical in escaping his combos.
I realize that i play game and watch so this may sound a bit biased, but he really does have few weaknesses and will probably be very difficult to beat.
best way to beat gw is probably to have a good non energy based projectile game to counter his good range and priority. This is probably best pulled off by olimar, toon link, and snake (samus and link players will have to develop more to see if they counter at all). Beyond that your only hope is have more range than him so characters like zss, marth, and ike will have to play very tight spacing games to compete.
I agree that in general your going to want to kill him off the top of the stage, his recovery will almost get him back from anywhere. Characters with energy projectiles may be able to learn to bait buckets if their willing to risk the eventual outcome to get hits in. Learning to make your rolling/teching game unpredictable will also be key in not taking too much damage against gw's throws. Di'ing his bair and nairs will also be critical in escaping his combos.
I realize that i play game and watch so this may sound a bit biased, but he really does have few weaknesses and will probably be very difficult to beat.
HyugaRicdeau
Baller/Shot-caller
Actually, you only got your 2nd jump back from being thrown in Melee, not just from being grabbed, so nothing's changed. I actually didn't know this until a couple weeks ago.
Also, jabbing to force a stand doesn't seem to work the same anymore. You can't thunders-combo; it seems that the jab just brings them to a 'standing state of having been jabbed' immediately, instead of forcing the 'get-up' animation.
Scamp has found out that you can bucket Pika's thunder, and 3 of them is almost a OHKO. Dave's Stupid Team is in the works.
I main Winterfresh GW, btw.
Also, jabbing to force a stand doesn't seem to work the same anymore. You can't thunders-combo; it seems that the jab just brings them to a 'standing state of having been jabbed' immediately, instead of forcing the 'get-up' animation.
Scamp has found out that you can bucket Pika's thunder, and 3 of them is almost a OHKO. Dave's Stupid Team is in the works.
I main Winterfresh GW, btw.
Fleur de Lis
Smash Lord
LCD gw?
of course. gimme a break, the other colors blow.
I would vote GW as top tier, along with toon link and marth. I think metaknight is overrated.
also, dthrow hammer is not that great. why have people been hyping it? you learn to tech it. even if they mix up the throws, tech it as though it was a dthrow anyway, it won't hurt if they uthrow you or something. there are enough options (shielding, dodging, rolling to either side, teching) that I can very rarely hit people with the hammer. gw is good because he is absurdly powerful with his smashes, and he has the best vertical control of the game (i.e. he hits you no matter how far above or below him you are)
he's the new falco, enough said.
of course. gimme a break, the other colors blow.
I would vote GW as top tier, along with toon link and marth. I think metaknight is overrated.
also, dthrow hammer is not that great. why have people been hyping it? you learn to tech it. even if they mix up the throws, tech it as though it was a dthrow anyway, it won't hurt if they uthrow you or something. there are enough options (shielding, dodging, rolling to either side, teching) that I can very rarely hit people with the hammer. gw is good because he is absurdly powerful with his smashes, and he has the best vertical control of the game (i.e. he hits you no matter how far above or below him you are)
he's the new falco, enough said.
Actually I can't take credit for this. Credit goes to SKYPAL for telling me. Though I did return the favor with the team strategy. By the way, 3 thunders IS an OHKO. (Barring walls or something stupid like that.)
I'm still not convinced that G&W is that good. At least, not up there with the likes of whatever people think the top-tier is. Seeing as they seem to very much, I guess I can't really say whether or not I think he's over-rated. I'm going in circles now and I'm sort of dizzy.
I will say that G&W has got to be one of the easiest characters to pick up and play at a high level. I think his options are generally limited, especially in terms of approaching opponents.
Fleur: I've really got to ask why Snake isn't in your top-tier.
And for everyone I'd like to ask what makes Toon Link so good. TL discussion next!
Kyari
Smash Lord
He's good because he's so good at pressuring, especially pressuring shields. Most characters can't hold their shield down forever. And he does have more than just the approach of the turtle, you can walk toward them and dtilt at a decent distance, it's easily big enough to avoid being shield grabbed, and although it's not spammable against Olimar or others with projectiles, it's still a fast and safe move to use at them. Also, triple turtling, using your SH and your aerial jump, can still be secure from rollers if you just space the turtle properly, and you still have the threat of hitting them out of their roll.
dont know if this has been discussed really but while playing in a team tourny we used Lucas/G&W and we tried to abuse the fact you can fill the bucket with one thunder. Simplest method we found was the Lucas shoots the thunder straight up and the G&W jumps up and uses the bucket then. He seems to start off taking the stream and then gets the head of the thunder at the end giving him the full bucket. It does around 25% dmg and Im unsure exactly of the knock back, but this seems to be a fairly fast and effective way to use the bucket in teams.
we would have experimented more but we found that diddy/snake is a much more fun and effective team for us ^_^
we would have experimented more but we found that diddy/snake is a much more fun and effective team for us ^_^
mathos
Smash Champion
I think you mean PK Freeze if you're Lucas. . . . and Flash if you're Ness.
point of doing with PK thunder is that it only takes one to fill a bucket, where as PK flash and freeze cant do that
yes those do more dmg, but how can you really get the opportunity to fill entire bucket with those, could probably do PK fires to finish it up but that still takes up time.
yes those do more dmg, but how can you really get the opportunity to fill entire bucket with those, could probably do PK fires to finish it up but that still takes up time.
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really gw would work well with any character that has an energy based projectile. characters that can fill his bucket quick are optimal, such as breath characters (icies, charizard, bowswer) but the above mentioned pk thunder and lasers would work well too.
This combined with his up b and up air pushing abilities will make gw a shining team player.
~omegablackmage
This combined with his up b and up air pushing abilities will make gw a shining team player.
~omegablackmage
Hmm... oddly enough, I was having a fairly easy time beating my friend's GaW with Luigi, and I don't even play Luigi I don't know exactly *why* I was winning, except that I could land 30 percent combos using n-air and u-air, I could outspace or maneuver around most of his ground moves with b-air, and f-smash kills at ridiculously low percents. So does up+b, which seems to be comboable out of jabs.
Also, the last hitbox is, as I'm sure most everybody knows by now, a landing hitbox. That means that the timing GaW uses to throw out the turtle decides the timing of the last hit. It's possible to put a substantial amount of time between the 5th turtle hit and its landing hitbox, which can really screw up things like shield grab timing and dodges. Also, shieldstabbing isn't a big deal with this move at all if you just direct your shield as the attack continues.
An important thing to remember in gimping GaW is that his up+b does not get reverse sweetspots. This means that if you can force him beneath the stage somehow, you stand a great chance of killing him early. Of course, this is kind of true for most characters as well... but in GaW's case, it is especially important to remember.
I don't know exactly *why* I was winning, except that I could land 30 percent combos using n-air and u-air, I could outspace or maneuver around most of his ground moves with b-air, and f-smash kills at ridiculously low percents. So does up+b, which seems to be comboable out of jabs.Also, the last hitbox is, as I'm sure most everybody knows by now, a landing hitbox. That means that the timing GaW uses to throw out the turtle decides the timing of the last hit. It's possible to put a substantial amount of time between the 5th turtle hit and its landing hitbox, which can really screw up things like shield grab timing and dodges. Also, shieldstabbing isn't a big deal with this move at all if you just direct your shield as the attack continues.
An important thing to remember in gimping GaW is that his up+b does not get reverse sweetspots. This means that if you can force him beneath the stage somehow, you stand a great chance of killing him early. Of course, this is kind of true for most characters as well... but in GaW's case, it is especially important to remember.
G&W would've given many character's issues in Melee had the Tiers been less extreme. He simply seems to be designed to annoy Top Tiers just never had the umph needed to keep up with them before. However with so many characters at or near tourney level in Brawl, and G&W's improvements he will probably end up as a counter to many characters. I know in my Pit forum it's a general understanding that G&W is Pit's biggest counter.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_RunS7GhBA
Watch that video. T-Rex's Snake is ridiculous and not flashy, but Hylian's G&W is sick. He does a lot of tricks that I had never seen before.
I wish he would have used his ICs, he showed me a lot of tricks.
Watch that video. T-Rex's Snake is ridiculous and not flashy, but Hylian's G&W is sick. He does a lot of tricks that I had never seen before.
I wish he would have used his ICs, he showed me a lot of tricks.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
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Uh... Throughout that entire video I was wondering wtf was wrong with that Snake. Sure, he's good, not flashy, and gets the job done, but he forgot about the 1 thing that makes Snake an awesome G&W counter: Up-tilt. There were several times in that match where he jabbed, F-tilted, or grabbed where he SHOULD have up-tilted to easily KO G&W. Hell, a down-tilt would've been just as good (its better than people give it credit for). If that Snake threw in those two moves along with what he was doing, then that match would've been his easily.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Well, T-rex won 3 out of the 4 matches they played for the semi-finals. He usually does use dtilt and utilt well. I think that might have just been an off game. Click on that video and go to my channel to see the others.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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NoJ and Cosmo are still the best G&W's I've seen; that snake had a lot of opportunities.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
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Another week, another character. Good stuff, guys.
Everything after this post is general discussion!
Everything after this post is general discussion!
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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I could have sworn I wrote a little synopsis thingy in here...
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
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I could have sworn that I put your synopsis in the sticky and deleted it like I did the last 2 times.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Well, all I know is that uair to up B is amazing on anyone trying to attack you from above.
Griffard
Smash Ace
All that I know about this fellow is that a.) I have strongly underestimated him. and b.) he is certainly at the high end of the tier list.
really beastly priority, every move is useful, no real weaknesses.
really beastly priority, every move is useful, no real weaknesses.
Hawks go Caw
Smash Ace
Perhaps it's slightly useless, but just as a reference, if somebody is grabbing the ledge and they've run out of invincibility frames, G&W's dash attack causes a spike.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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One of the things most people rag on G&W for is his light weight.
OS totally nailed that weakness. Seriously, G&W survives a really long time. I'll add not just because if he DI's right, he can always make it back. The thing is G&W also takes damage a lot more slowly than most characters because his defensive options are very impressive. Most characters have a lot of trouble getting through his wall of N-airs and B-airs, and his shield finally covers him completely. Even his Smashes are hard to get past because they are all really spammable. Basically while he's taking damage slower than most people, he's also killing at lower percents than even he himself is getting killed at.
OS totally nailed that weakness. Seriously, G&W survives a really long time. I'll add not just because if he DI's right, he can always make it back. The thing is G&W also takes damage a lot more slowly than most characters because his defensive options are very impressive. Most characters have a lot of trouble getting through his wall of N-airs and B-airs, and his shield finally covers him completely. Even his Smashes are hard to get past because they are all really spammable. Basically while he's taking damage slower than most people, he's also killing at lower percents than even he himself is getting killed at.
daytimeninja
Smash Apprentice
This man speaks the truth....Although I'd have to say dsmash is better, but dash can catch your opponent off guard if you time it right.