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Stage Control/Pressuring Guide: Final Version

T*H*O*R

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
65
Stage Control/Pressuring Guide

So if you haven’t already figured this out I’m going to tell you now that the main reason that Snake has potential to be a frighteningly good character has to do with his ability to put the pressure on his opponent and to cause them to slip up. In general, playing Snake is like playing a game of speed chess: you need to strategize to make you opponent move the way you want him to so that you can take advantage of him.

Firstly, let’s examine Snake’s strengths and weaknesses

Strengths:

Has powerful ground game with several fast killing moves and natural combos
Has long term/long range projectiles which he can control in detail
Has large and sometimes disjointed hitboxes
Deals absurd amounts of damage
Has high ground priority
Can kill at moderate percentages with all aerials
Is very good at edgeguarding
Has a powerful spike
Has impressive range
Is a heavyweight with a very good (possibly reusable) 3rd jump
Has fast and long dash attack
Has powerful grabs which set up for edgeguarding

Weaknesses:
Is easily juggled, prefers ground combat (has low aerial mobility)
Aerials are long and slow to execute
Has slow running speed
Side smash is absurdly slow and has little practical usage in 1 v. 1 play
Down smash is slow to execute, disappears quickly/with stage changes, and is easily tricked by projectiles and rolling
Can be hurt by some of his own moves
His recovery can be gimped/he is easily spiked
Recovery is easily stuck underneath stages
He is a large target
He has trouble hitting smaller characters


Stage Control

So the task here is maximizing his strengths and minimizing his weaknesses. In order to do this we should first realize the standing range of Snake. Negating projectiles (except for the up-smash), Snake has a standing range that extends about 1½ lying body lengths on both sides and about 8 standing body lengths up. From the standing position Snake can charge up smash to the top of the screen at Final Destination or perform is dash attack to either side. Any character within this massive area of control can be hit by one of Snake’s more powerful move and dealt both extensive damage (at least 10% if not more) and knockback. Snake can also leave behind areas of control by means of proximity mines, grenades, and C4, all of which have almost the upward range of an up tilt and the sideways range of ½ of Snake’s body lying down. With the exception of grenades, these areas are under your control and will only move if you choose to move them.

Knowing these things, a Snake player has one main objective: box the opponent in so that you can take advantage of your high priority, high damage, and high knockback close quarter moves. Simply put, your opponent should always feel like they have nowhere to run and no space to recover or prepare a counter-attack. Do not allow your opponent to have control of the air and do not allow them to push you towards the edge of the stage; always control the center of the stage.

In order to box an opponent in, the player should put their opponent between the proverbial rock and a hard place. For example, on Final Destination Snake should always be closer to the center of the stage and should be forcing their opponent towards the edge. In this case, the choices for the opposing player are a) jump off the edge and plummet to their death, b) attack Snake and try to get some space, or c) try to evade and gain control of the center of the stage again. Since choices a) and b) are in your favor, you should focus on preventing your opponent from getting behind you and out of your box.

To first get your opponent to the edge, force them there with quick mortar slides, dash attacks, approaching, short hopped C4 drops and shield dropped grenades. Hit them to the side with forward tilts and neutral A combos and juggle them with up tilts if they try to become airborne. At all times remember to keep your opponent grounded and in front of you. If they try to roll behind you, have a proximity mine, C4, or a grenade waiting. Should they be dumb enough to try to jump over your head, shoot a mortar at them and juggle them with up-tilts, up-airs, cooked grenades, and up-smashes. Should they jump over you and you miss them with your mortar, turn around and throw some grenades to the far side of the stage (one long throw and one medium lob; you can grenade strip if necessary) and then perform either a running up-smash or mortar slide (depending on their distance from you) to keep them in the air. Chances are if they miss all of those attacks, they will land right back where you had them originally or in the same position as before but on the other side of the stage. Once you have racked up between 50% and 70% damage, get your opponent off the stage with a short hopped bair/nair/dair, a front tilt, or your neutral A combo. At this point you have two options: you can try to rack up some damage while they recover (which should amount to at least 20% +) or you can try to edgeguard them to death. To rack up damage shoot a charged mortar directly at the edge, place a mine about ¾ of Snake’s body away from the edge, and then shoot nikitas from just outside the blast radius. If they have been hit out far, hit them with the nikita, if they take the edge they will either be hit by the mortar or you can cancel drop your nikita onto their heads, and if they recover to the stage, they will either hit the mine or be forced back into your arms. Repeat this process until your opponent is either dead from edgeguarding or at 110-130 damage. If they are at this damage, kill them with a front/up tilt or neutral A combo (bair/nair/dair/uair also work but the ground attacks are easier and more reliable)

Here's another method of edgeguarding:
Let us say you've just knocked someone off, and although you followed up with Nikitas/Mortars, they just couldn't finish the job and/or you know your opponent has an above average recovery.

Try this: Plant a C4+mine combo behind you about (perhaps a little less than) a dash attack's distance away from the ledge, then shield drop a nade right near the ledge as they come up to sweet spot it, and hold your shield. The following things could happen:

- They stall too long on the ledge, and the nade's blast blows them offstage again.
- They try to ledgehop stall and the nade's explosion misses. You should just renew the nade with another shield drop.
- They try to do a get-upattack or a ledgehopped aerial. They get grenade countered.
- You miss a nade renewal, and they take this chance to get up from the edge. Use a well timed short hop bair to knock them back off. This works better on characters with non-disjointed hitboxes if they attempt to ledgehop into an aerial.
- If they jump from the ledge, use a full hopped bair to pummel them off once more.
- If you miss either of these anticipated actions, or if they roll behind you, you've got the c4+mine combo waiting in the wings. The combo has barred off the opponent from the rest of the stage and limited their movement, they hesitate, and you're right behind them, ready with a grab to throw them back off.

This isn't perfect of course, one flaw being that you can't hold your shield for an extended period of time. You can get around this by timing a powershield of the nade, or only shielding just before it explodes/as they attempt a ledgehopped attack if you've got the timing down. Another flaw would be they quickly escape out of your boxed-in area, but perhaps you could also touch on chasing techniques when you elaborate on pressure gameplay.

This process attempts to keep the pressure on them with the goal of keeping them offstage, racking up damage, and ultimately scoring a KO. It's amazing how much Snake can influence an opponent's actions :chuckle:

The Keys of Stage Control

-Make sure that the only place patch of ground that isn't mined or filled with live grenades is the space between you and the edge of the map with your opponent in the middle
-Keep your enemy close and punish them if they try to get space
-When you knock your enemy off the side, fortify the edge with mines, C4, and grenades and then proceed to edgeguard for additional damage
-Control the center of the stage
-Never let you opponent behind you
-Make it difficult for your opponent to safely move about, if something is always exploding or about to explode around them, they will focus less on you and let you get near to punish them
-Use mortars to have a constant wall of bombardment to further box in your opponent
-Always have your goal be to get your opponent off the edge, if they start to jump above you, then they have better positioning; a vertical kill is always an option, but not something you should plan for

Above All - If you control the stage you control the match, if your opponent has time to breath and set himself up, he will use this as an opportunity to hurt you the most; never let them rest, always move with them and keep them close to you.

Pressuring

Alright now for pressuring. I alluded to pressuring your opponent in the above section, but since pressuring your opponent is all about exploiting their personal weaknesses, I am going to examine each type of player and how you can keep them off balance and playing into your hands.

Type I - The Projectile Spammer

Ahh the projectile spammer. The bane of every Snake's existence is a Pit or Wolf player who loves nothing more than to spam those annoying projectiles of theirs. Here's thing to remember, projectiles, even in real life, are almost totally ineffective at very close range. Thus, the solution to a projectile happy character is to keep them as close as possible and punish their projectile use in any way that you can.

The first and most simple thing to remember against some (not all) projectile spammers is that your crouch will allow you to evade those annoying shots from across the stage. Characters such as Falco, Fox, DeDeDe, Diddy, Sheik, Samus (sometimes), Link, Toon Link, Olimar (sometimes), R.O.B. (sometimes), Yoshi, Pit (sometimes), and Mr. Game & Watch all have projectiles which can be avoided using your prone crawl. Use this method to close the gap between you and your opponent. For characters whom this does not work against (anybody with a projectile not listed above and anyone who is skilled with the "sometimes" characters who are listed above) you need to close the gap quickly and efficiently. I would recommend dash shielding, powershielding, and spot dodging as ways to approach while receiving minimal damage from your opponent. Once you get to within a close dash attack's distance away, either perform a mortar slide (contact or no contact, your choice) or a simple dash attack to force them to the edge of the stage.

If you don't like this slower method of approach you may also try to temporarily halt their onslaught of projectiles with a cooked grenade which will blow up due to their projectile spam. If you do this rush in quickly with a no contact mortar slide once they are hit by the grenade blast to close the gap.

Do not try to attack from the air! As a Fox player from Melee, I can tell you that nothing made me happier than having my opponent jump into the air and try to approach me from there. Most projectile spammers can stow their weapon quickly enough to get into position to juggle you from the ground (something that Snake is particularly vulnerable to) and will delight in watching you squirm to evade their aerials as they tack on a hefty 30+ damage points on right from the start. The key to this type of opponent is not to get greedy or frustrated and try to punish their spamming with the most powerful move in your arsenal.

Once your opponent is close, keep them there. Force them to the edge of the stage using dash attack and mortar slides and pummeling them with forward tilts and neutral A combos. Above all remember that this type of player just wants to get away from you to spam their projectile more and rack up some safe cheap damage. Use this mentality to your advantage: perform a down throw near the edge and anticipate that they will roll back towards the center of the stage; turn around and unleash a forward smash in their face. Above all, keep them close to you and in front of you. These players will often frantically try something rash to get you away from them and you can wait until they do to punish them. If you are up close to a Pit player and wacking him with you tilts and neutral A attacks, expect him to pull out his side B in frustration. Simply DI backwards and out of it, roll behind them and juggle them with an up-tilt or push them back towards the edge with a neutral A combo or a forward tilt.

One final note on the projectile spammer is that they are often smash happy. Your typical projectile spammer will rack up damage with his ranged attack and then finish you with a smash or powerful tilt attack. If you keep them close, they will likely try to forgo the ranged spamming and simply rely on their smashes.

Type II - The Camper

Often confused or lumped in with the projectile spammer, this type of player is the next evolutionary step in the playing mentality chain. They have graduated from sheer projectile spamming to using their ranged attacks to draw you in towards them where they then punish you and bat you away, only to resume spamming their ranged attack until you come closer.

The key to this type of play is to break up their rhythm. When I was Fox in Melee, I was the quintessential camper and it's a strategy which worked fantastically well until I didn't control my own little area anymore. In order to pressure this type of player, you need to keep them constantly on the move and off the edge of the stage.

For this type of player, the first step to breaking up their rhythm is to disrupt their projectile spam. The nikita works alright for this, but its startup and cool down lag are considerable enough that I would recommend the grenade instead. Cook the grenade, jump and toss it in front of you opponent and in the line of their fire. If you time it right, either the fuse should run out or the projectiles from your opponent should blow it up, giving you a small window of approach. Once their initial rhythm is broken, rush in with a no contact mortar slide followed with a neutral A combo to force them to the edge.

At this point the key is keeping them off the stage and preventing them from knocking you back and giving them space. My advice is to get them off the stage and immediately plant C4 close to the edge and mine a small distance away. Continue to pressure them until they knock you back and try to regain control of their area. At this point you can use grenades in conjunction with the C4 and mine that you planted to force them to abandon their camping ground in search of a safer spot. While they search, charge back in towards them and immediately put the pressure back on them by knocking them off the stage and edgeguarding them with mortars and nikitas.

In general, this fight is all about reversing their strategy on them. Break up their rhythm and mine their original camping ground, forcing them to come to you. I often find that the approach is the weakest part of people's game, and forcing them to come to you plays right into your hands.

Type III - The Aggressive Pressurer

You will most likely come across this type of player if you play against another Snake or any character without a spammable projectile. These types of players will rush in at you with powerful, high priority attacks, often with impressive range or disjointed hitboxes to try and force you off the edge. Expect these people to play as Ike, Marth, Snake, Gannondorf, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Wario, and Metaknight. These types of playes play the way you do, they fight close and they trade blows with their opponents. Their high priority, damaging moves will force you into the air and off the stage more frequently than the other types of players described already.

The important thing to realize here is that these types of players are hopeless when they are far away from their opponent. They rely on powerful aerials and side/down B moves to close the distance between themselves and their opponents and rely on out prioritizing or out speeding their opponent. Thusly, to pressure this type of player, you need to trade blows with them and then knock them away from you so you can spam your nikitas and grenades.

With this type of player your disjointed hitboxes (C4, Mortars, Mines, Grenades) will come in handier than with other playing types. Your grenade counter should be used to break up their combos, halt their rhythm, and keep them from juggling you.

STAY ON THE GROUND! These characters will almost uniformly out prioritize you in the air. You are heavy and fall fast making you susceptible to juggling and comboing. If you must become airborne, short hop your aerials and make sure you hit you opponent with them. Avoid being grabbed at all costs and constantly dodge around them while sneaking in a neutral A combo, a forward tilt, or a grab. Conversely, if these players take to the skies to try to attack with their powerful aerial attacks, juggle them with an up-tilt or an up-smash combo and then keep them airborne with your disjointed up-smash (Avoid the aerials as you will probably either miss or be out prioritized)

To keep the pressure on these characters, make them chase you. As they follow you, drop grenades, C4, and mines and throw them away if they get too close. Remember that even characters like Gannondorf can be K.O.ed by an up-tilt at 120% (that's about 7 forward tilts) so you really don't need to hit them too much before they are damaged enough for you to kill them.

Force you opponent towards the edges and then shield grab their attacks and throw them off. Edgeguard this type of player with nikitas and mortars in particular since most of them will have to recover to the edge of the stage. Rack up damage constantly and keep them from digging in their heels and getting too close to you.

Another good pressuring technique is to stick C4 to your opponent out of a powershield (or while they're shielding) and then up-tilt them followed by a C4 detonation at the peak of their flight. This combo will kill at between 40% and 60% for almost all characters.

Finally, remember that your neutral A combo will out prioritize most of these characters' approach moves and that it will give you the opportunity to set your opponent off balance. Gannondorf's side and down B attacks are stopped by this (to give you an idea of the priority this move has) and if you just hold down A, your spazzy rapid punch combo will stop annoying techniques like Jigglypuff's Rollout and Wario's motorcycle.

__________________________________________________________________________

That's the basics for pressuring with Snake, I may add more in the future, but for now I think this should cover it.
 

abit_rusty

Smash Lord
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Very nice job covering different situations in depth and follow-ups to certain actions, and I basically agree with everything you said. Christ...I play almost exactly like this...haha. While this works rather well against non-projectile users, it's not as successful against projectile spammers. Perhaps you could touch on that? Or against campers?

I also may have a method of more aggressive edgeguarding as opposed to the passive one I mentioned in my guide with the C4+mine combination. It could possibly fall under Snake's pressure gameplay:

Let us say you've just knocked someone off, and although you followed up with Nikitas/Mortars, they just couldn't finish the job and/or you know your opponent has an above average recovery.

Try this: Plant a C4+mine combo behind you about (perhaps a little less than) a dash attack's distance away from the ledge, then shield drop a nade right near the ledge as they come up to sweet spot it, and hold your shield. The following things could happen:

- They stall too long on the ledge, and the nade's blast blows them offstage again.
- They try to ledgehop stall and the nade's explosion misses. You should just renew the nade with another shield drop.
- They try to do a get-upattack or a ledgehopped aerial. They get grenade countered.
- You miss a nade renewal, and they take this chance to get up from the edge. Use a well timed short hop bair to knock them back off. This works better on characters with non-disjointed hitboxes if they attempt to ledgehop into an aerial.
- If they jump from the ledge, use a full hopped bair to pummel them off once more.
- If you miss either of these anticipated actions, or if they roll behind you, you've got the c4+mine combo waiting in the wings. The combo has barred off the opponent from the rest of the stage and limited their movement, they hesitate, and you're right behind them, ready with a grab to throw them back off.

This isn't perfect of course, one flaw being that you can't hold your shield for an extended period of time. You can get around this by timing a powershield of the nade, or only shielding just before it explodes/as they attempt a ledgehopped attack if you've got the timing down. Another flaw would be they quickly escape out of your boxed-in area, but perhaps you could also touch on chasing techniques when you elaborate on pressure gameplay.

This process attempts to keep the pressure on them with the goal of keeping them offstage, racking up damage, and ultimately scoring a KO. It's amazing how much Snake can influence an opponent's actions :chuckle:
 

Depressed Man

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
127
I know it's not finished but here's something if you haven't thought of putting it in. With stages that have platforms you can use them to also do control and pressuring. Especially the animal crossing stage where you can place C4 on the platform that moves left and right and whenever you want, detonate it and have whoever standing below to get hit by the explosion.
 

StoleUrCar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
211
Ooo I like how you went in great detail + alternatives and a heads up on what to expect against the types of players to pressure against. Nice ;)

edit: This prolly shuld get stickied as well. Why dont mods ever visit the snake forums? :(
 

Brahma

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
455
Location
South Bend, Indiana
Nice writeup THOR!

An edgeguard I like to use on battlefield or similar stages: C4 next to the edge, mine at the distance of an edgeroll, and then toss grenades onto the platform with neutral toss (they land on the platform if you are in the middle of the stage).

The C4 prevents them from staying on the edge as it will blow them off and possibly stage spike. So this forces them into a quick decision: roll, jump, or ledgehop. Roll is covered by the mine, jump puts them near the grenades (though they can time it to escape them or airdodge), and ledgehop will usually put them right between C4 and mine.


Another fun Snake stage is Smashville. To elaborate on Depressed Man's post, if you place C4/mine/Grenades on the moving platform, you create a moving pressure zone. I prefer C4/grenades since mines may end up hurting you. Toss a few grenades on the platform as it heads towards your opponent, which will force them to react with a shield or by moving away. C4 is nice too because you can leave it on there, which is very unsettling to an opponent, as you can blow it at any time. Great stage for countering campers. Also fun is in FFA you can ride the platform and spam mortars to cover the stage. When you get to either side, lob a few grenades/nikitas, then repeat.
 

zapdose

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
78
Location
SoCal
Great guide. I was having a bit of trouble with projectile spammers/campers and this helped me out.
 

Sw0rd

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
57
Location
Chico, CA
Sweet guide, those pesky spammers and campers have been really annoying, this guide covers them pretty nicely.
 

OpTiMuS.RhYmE

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
16
What the heck was this doing on the middle of the 2nd page??? THOR's strats are uber and no snake should leave home (the character select screen :p) without them.

Too many unecessary threads being made rite now cuz people are too lazy to search...which furthermore brings up the fact that we need mods here to start sticky-ing! :ohwell:
 

Xxll_The Boss_llxX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
73
Location
Renton, Washington
This guide is simply phenomenal. You pretty much touched on most aspects of every situation any Snake has either been in once, or has yet to be in. Clearly one of the better thought-out guides out there. It's great to have such a thorough guide for a character like Snake. Big props to THOR for this. And i just wanna thank all those who have made and put out guides on Snake. They've really helped. Keep up the excellent work Thor
 

ShadowDigo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
55
Wow, a great guide, this will help my game with Snake a lot!
By the way, I have another strategy against projectile spammers.
I find it useful sometimes to use your nikita against a projectile spammer, since it deflect most of the projectiles. Once they see that they're projectiles are getting deflected they will head towards you to use smashes, just use a shieldgrab or dodge and then punish them with your A combo or forward tilt.
 

bossyjellyfish

Foxes Mate for Life
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
247
Location
MA
One thing about using the nikita to block projectiles is that the startup and cool down lag maybe allow snake to be hit by another projectile after blocking one.
 

T*H*O*R

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
65
One thing about using the nikita to block projectiles is that the startup and cool down lag maybe allow snake to be hit by another projectile after blocking one.
Well you're sort of correct. You can steer the nikita in such a way so that it is continually in the way of projectiles flying your way, thus canceling many of them with a single shot. However, the cool down lag does leave you open to attack should your opponent choose to stow their weapon and attack you physically. In this case I would say that it's most important to be able to read your foe so that you can cancel the nikita in time to defend against these physical blows. Still, this should not pose too much of an issue unless you are just god awful at canceling the nikitas under pressure and bad at reading your opponent's reactions.
 

.:DRAKE:.

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
151
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Fantastic contribution as per usual T*H*O*R.

Just an alternate edge guarding tactic, when I knock an opponent off the edge of the stage: I stand Snake about a foot before the edge and lob one grenade up (B + back I mean), sheild drop one grenade to my feet and then fire a mortar up before rolling back:

(edge) _o___v___o___S_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Where o is a grenade, v is the mortar and S is Snake after rolling back.

If timed right there should be three quick, successive (but slightly separate ) explosions, and it effectively shuts down most of an opponents recovery options:

-The first grenade (the leftmost on the diagram), prevents the opponent from hanging on the ledge or using a recovery attack to scramble back onto the stage.
- The mortar stops the opponent from jumping back onto the platform (unless they air dodge immediately... which can leave them open anyway).
- The second grenade (the rightmost on the diagram), can make the opponent reluctant to roll back on (however if they time it right, the invincibility frames protect them from the grenade anyway).
- If the opponent attempts to fastfall down away from the platform to try their luck recovering again, just rinse and repeat as best you can before they recover.

Either way whether the opponent is hit by an explosion or not, it certainly knocks them off balance and exerts a huge amount of pressure. It works a treat against most people I verse, but I would like to know if others find this useful.
 

Yumewomiteru

Smash Master
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^ Did someone relly necro this just to say "Good Thread"? <.<

Mods lock this...

mods?
.
.
.

I'm all alone! :cry:
 
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