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Overcoming scrubness to play competitively.

masterspeaks

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
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128
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Da' Boro
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this board and a lot of complaints have reminded me of David Sirlin's book, Playing to Win. I apologize for this wall of text but I think it is very important some of the newer smash players read this if they truly want to be part of a competitive community. This is a link to the complete article, http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/ . However, I decided to include the chapter on scrubs in this post:

"The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.

In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.

Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definitionof playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.

Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite subtle and difficult to discover. Knowing the counter tactic prevents the other player from using his tactic, but he can then use a counter to your counter. You are now afraid to use your counter and the opponent can go back to sneaking in the original overpowering tactic. This concept will be covered in much more detail later.

The good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

Let’s return to the group of scrubs. They don’t know the first thing about all the depth I’ve been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more “fun.” Superficially, their argument does at least look valid, since often their games will be more “wet and wild” than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of this “fun” on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his every move, even his every counter.

Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.

The scrub has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about “skill” and how he has skill whereas other players—very much including the ones who beat him flat out—do not have skill. The confusion here is what “skill” actually is. In Street Fighter, scrubs often cling to combos as a measure of skill. A combo is a sequence of moves that is unblockable if the first move hits. Combos can be very elaborate and very difficult to pull off. But single moves can also take “skill,” according to the scrub. The “dragon punch” or “uppercut” in Street Fighter is performed by holding the joystick toward the opponent, then down, then diagonally down and toward as the player presses a punch button. This movement must be completed within a fraction of a second, and though there is leeway, it must be executed fairly accurately. Ask any scrub and they will tell you that a dragon punch is a “skill move.”

I once played a scrub who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with “no skill moves” while he performed many difficult dragon punches. He cried cheap when I threw him five times in a row asking, “Is that all you know how to do? Throw?” I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, “Play to win, not to do ‘difficult moves.’” This was a big moment in that scrub’s life. He could either ignore his losses and continue living in his mental prison or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.

I’ve never been to a tournament where there was a prize for the winner and another prize for the player who did many difficult moves. I’ve also never seen a prize for a player who played “in an innovative way.” (Though chess tournaments do sometimes have prizes for “brilliancies,” moves that are strokes of genius.) Many scrubs have strong ties to “innovation.” They say, “That guy didn’t do anything new, so he is no good.” Or “person X invented that technique and person Y just stole it.” Well, person Y might be one hundred times better than person X, but that doesn’t seem to matter to the scrub. When person Y wins the tournament and person X is a forgotten footnote, what will the scrub say? That person Y has “no skill” of course.

You can gain some standing in a gaming community by playing in an innovative way, but that should not be the ultimate goal. Innovation is merely one of many tools that may or may not help you reach victory. The goal is to play as excellently as possible. The goal is to win."
 

South Cape

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Feb 7, 2008
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Apparently that person and yourself have no real notion of honour or showmanship. When you have a duel, one where you count to ten, turn and shoot, it's pretty easy to just shoot your opponent in the back of the head once he's counted to two. It takes respect for your opponent to show them the same courtesy they pay to you, namely not spamming one move that's guaranteed to hit and kill without fail and actually put effort into a fight as they are.

Call me a scrub if you must, but just pressing one thing that always yields the same results isn't much of a game to me. At least in a one button RPG, the button does different things every now and again.
 

NoVaLombardia

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Apparently that person and yourself have no real notion of honour or showmanship. When you have a duel, one where you count to ten, turn and shoot, it's pretty easy to just shoot your opponent in the back of the head once he's counted to two. It takes respect for your opponent to show them the same courtesy they pay to you, namely not spamming one move that's guaranteed to hit and kill without fail and actually put effort into a fight as they are.

Call me a scrub if you must, but just pressing one thing that always yields the same results isn't much of a game to me. At least in a one button RPG, the button does different things every now and again.
you could always not accept the duel
 

Ørion

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Apparently that person and yourself have no real notion of honour or showmanship. When you have a duel, one where you count to ten, turn and shoot, it's pretty easy to just shoot your opponent in the back of the head once he's counted to two. It takes respect for your opponent to show them the same courtesy they pay to you, namely not spamming one move that's guaranteed to hit and kill without fail and actually put effort into a fight as they are.

Call me a scrub if you must, but just pressing one thing that always yields the same results isn't much of a game to me. At least in a one button RPG, the button does different things every now and again.
One of the points of this article was to say that games do not have a single button that you can keep pressing to win. Games aren't designed like that, there are various counter moves you can use. The article also stated that you should be able to predict and dodge a move if it is thrown at you over and over and over again. Fighting games truly do not have moves that are 'cheap' unless it has to do with random occurrences, like what can happen in brawl with items or stages.
 

masterspeaks

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Apparently that person and yourself have no real notion of honour or showmanship. When you have a duel, one where you count to ten, turn and shoot, it's pretty easy to just shoot your opponent in the back of the head once he's counted to two. It takes respect for your opponent to show them the same courtesy they pay to you, namely not spamming one move that's guaranteed to hit and kill without fail and actually put effort into a fight as they are.

Call me a scrub if you must, but just pressing one thing that always yields the same results isn't much of a game to me. At least in a one button RPG, the button does different things every now and again.
My friend, that is merely the scrub in you talking. Showmanship and courtesy are well and good but in a competitive format there is nothing wrong with using the same attack 5, 10, or 20 times in a row as long as it gives you the win. If someone falls victim to something so simple that many times, either they fail as a gamer for not finding a solution to counter that one attack or the game itself is broken beyond playability. The person who wins as a result of spamming that same attack have done nothing wrong, they are merely playing to win.
 

Nato.

Smash Cadet
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Apr 6, 2008
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So, if I unplug your controller, it's not cheap ?

Troll ? Probably...
 

SketchHurricane

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Apparently that person and yourself have no real notion of honour or showmanship. When you have a duel, one where you count to ten, turn and shoot, it's pretty easy to just shoot your opponent in the back of the head once he's counted to two. It takes respect for your opponent to show them the same courtesy they pay to you, namely not spamming one move that's guaranteed to hit and kill without fail and actually put effort into a fight as they are.

Call me a scrub if you must, but just pressing one thing that always yields the same results isn't much of a game to me. At least in a one button RPG, the button does different things every now and again.
You're completely taking the notion of honor and respect out of context here. Games have rules. In a duel, where the expressed rules are to count to ten, turn, and shoot, you are bound by those rules through honor and respect. Of course if you turn after two and shoot them in the back that is dishonorable, because you broke the rules.

Gaming tournaments have rules as well, and everyone involved follows them or they simply do not compete. Unless there are rules that say you cannot spam the amazing guaranteed kill attack, then there is absolutely no dishonor in doing so. In fact, if you're intentionally holding back when you know you can kill your opponent, that would be disrespectful to the opponent, who came for fight. Certain tactics are banned in tourneys for a reason. If you don't like competitive rules, then don't compete, it's as simple as that.

Call me a scrub if you must...
I'm afraid I must call you a scrub. But even the top players had the scrub mentality at one point. It all boils down to how you evolve.
 

TriforceCore

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This is was refreshing read, it reminded me on how i was in melee. I was a pretty good/talented Link user with all these fancy looking techniques but was always pissed when a shiek just pressing down on both sticks would like destroy me( crouch cancel Dsmash FTW) ugh! After that I decided I wasn't going to be a scrub and make Brawl the game I reign supreme amongst my friends. Even now I get remarks like "whatever I could still kick your *** in melee" lol
 

Cerozero

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This post rings true to me. I am going to break away from the last few unwritten rules I feel obligated to follow. My friend gets mad whenever I use a character he uses but I don't care anymore. I want to give Metaknight a try. F**k it.
 

masterspeaks

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This post rings true to me. I am going to break away from the last few unwritten rules I feel obligated to follow. My friend gets mad whenever I use a character he uses but I don't care anymore. I want to give Metaknight a try. F**k it.
I'm so proud of you for overcoming that scrub mentality. Just the other day I owned a local Brawl tourney, and some scrub had the nerve to come over to me and say that "nobody respects pit or metaknight players" when he could only take 2 of my stocks out of 3 matches. The scrub will always try to bring you down to your level even when they don't deserve victory.

This is why I like to look at gaming as a conversation. You argue your points with your opponent, and he argues his. “I think this series of moves is optimal,” you say, and he retorts, “Not when you take this into account.” Debates in real life are highly subjective, but in games we can be absolutely sure who the winner is. When you win in a game of Brawl, your argument was simply better; the character you choose, techniques you implement, or the manner in which you play are simply tools to win the debate of who is the better player.
 

Crizthakidd

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i read that before .

does he try to tell us that spamming is okay as long as u win and use it efficiently or smart? win at all costs?

how do we espace the scrubiness.
 

Teczer0

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i read that before .

does he try to tell us that spamming is okay as long as u win and use it efficiently or smart? win at all costs?

how do we espace the scrubiness.
Spamming, edgehogging, etc are invented by people and if it truly makes a game unfair the method will eventually be banned.

I.E Excessive stalling of the match (Not camping as in going under FD with Jiggs for no apparent reason in melee or Battlefield in brawl)

And method used to stop a character from moving completely i.e Icz freeze glitch in melee.

Those are obviously unfair.

Stuff like honor and garbage like I wanna prove something to people using (Insert character here) and win is dumb.

If you are a competitive player you play to win.

Jigglypuff players will mercilessly rest every stock they can in melee. Its gay but it works.

Besides if your opponent is smart or good in any way they can always get around you senselessly throwing projectiles at you and will probably beat you if you hope that one technique will win you a game.
 

Chrono Centaur

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Spamming, edgehogging, etc are invented by people and if it truly makes a game unfair the method will eventually be banned.

I.E Excessive stalling of the match (Not camping as in going under FD with Jiggs for no apparent reason in melee or Battlefield in brawl)

And method used to stop a character from moving completely i.e Icz freeze glitch in melee.

Those are obviously unfair.

Stuff like honor and garbage like I wanna prove something to people using (Insert character here) and win is dumb.

If you are a competitive player you play to win.

Jigglypuff players will mercilessly rest every stock they can in melee. Its gay but it works.

Besides if your opponent is smart or good in any way they can always get around you senselessly throwing projectiles at you and will probably beat you if you hope that one technique will win you a game.
You're still a scrub. You think that certain techniques are "gay" if constantly used. They're legitimate moves in the game. You're using your whole arsenal. Nothing "gay" about that. And yes, as a Jigglypuff mainer in Melee, I will mercilessly Rest people, because it works, and it's legitimate.
 

Teczer0

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You're still a scrub. You think that certain techniques are "gay" if constantly used. They're legitimate moves in the game. You're using your whole arsenal. Nothing "gay" about that. And yes, as a Jigglypuff mainer in Melee, I will mercilessly Rest people, because it works, and it's legitimate.
What the hell are you talking about?

Did you read what I said?

Or do you think the Ic freeze glitch is fair or Running away and Peach bombing 7 minutes after you were able to hit with a jab is fair?

I was saying that you should use whatever it takes to win and that the community will decide if there are techniques that just should outright be banned.

But lets face it getting rested 4 stocks in a row is gay.

Yes its a part of a your moveset, its partly my fault for getting hit by all of that garbage.

But .... ending a game to same move can leave you with a kind of OMG I wish I never see a rest again in my life.

Is it legitimate? Of course it is I shine spike every opportunity I get.

Btw before you go label people as scrubs or whatever read whatever they have to say.

I can understand you misunderstanding me because of my ambiguity especially since I'm posting to kill time.

But telling me I'm not good or I'm horrible at a game because I typed with ambiguity doesn't make me a bad player it makes me terrible at english. Which I am.
 

masterspeaks

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i read that before .

does he try to tell us that spamming is okay as long as u win and use it efficiently or smart? win at all costs?

how do we espace the scrubiness.
Any legal tactic that is possible within the game is fair game for use, regardless of how simple it is to abuse or difficult to counter. Again, you should win at all cost so long as it is within the rules of the game. A scrub will set up arbitrary rules in his mind: like not spamming attacks, using characters he feels are "broken", edgeguarding, etc. I've heard every kind of excuse as to why my victory over someone was somehow related to me breaking some arbitrary rule the scrub imagined.

The answer to "escaping scrubiness" is not a simple one. You have to break free from making excuses and accept that when you lose it was due to some deficiency on your part, not the person who beat you. Luck based elements such as tripping may sometimes be taken into account. Aside from that it is always your fault you lost, if your opponent scores a lucky hit that you would normally spot dodge, you shouldn't focus on that lucky hit you should ask yourself how he racked up 120% damage so that hit could kill you. If your opponent is an efficient camper it is up to you to figure a strategy to bypass it, at worst it may come down to you having to play a different character. Essentially, that is the kind of mentality it takes to play competitively. If you can't see yourself playing that way, there is nothing wrong with going to tournaments and playing for fun. Just don't get upset when you lose to someone who is there to win.
 

Chrono Centaur

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What the hell are you talking about?

Did you read what I said?

Or do you think the Ic freeze glitch is fair or Running away and Peach bombing 7 minutes after you were able to hit with a jab is fair?

I was saying that you should use whatever it takes to win and that the community will decide if there are techniques that just should outright be banned.

But lets face it getting rested 4 stocks in a row is gay.

Yes its a part of a your moveset, its partly my fault for getting hit by all of that garbage.

But .... ending a game to same move can leave you with a kind of OMG I wish I never see a rest again in my life.

Is it legitimate? Of course it is I shine spike every opportunity I get.

Btw before you go label people as scrubs or whatever read whatever they have to say.

I can understand you misunderstanding me because of my ambiguity especially since I'm posting to kill time.

But telling me I'm not good or I'm horrible at a game because I typed with ambiguity doesn't make me a bad player it makes me terrible at english. Which I am.
I wasn't talking about anything else, I was only referring to the "rest" thing. That isn't gay. You're still a scrub, even if you only think one move is gay. Crying about a cheap move won't change anything.

^ post above me is a winner.
 

Teczer0

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I wasn't talking about anything else, I was only referring to the "rest" thing. That isn't gay. You're still a scrub, even if you only think one move is gay. Crying about a cheap move won't change anything.

^ post above me is a winner.
So because I hate losing all of my stocks to one move makes me a worse player?

Thats so stupid I can't begin to comprehend. Thats just how I feel about losing to a move over and over.

Your gonna tell me that if you get grabbed by an Icz player and get wobbled for 4 straight stocks you can walk away like oh well I just lost another normal game.

Congratulations then cuz you clearly have near 0 emotions.

Btw apparently m2k and Cactuar are scrubs too since they think jigg's rest is gay too.
 

masterspeaks

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What the hell are you talking about?

Did you read what I said?

Or do you think the Ic freeze glitch is fair?

I was saying that you should use whatever it takes to win.

But lets face it getting rested 4 stocks in a row is gay.

Yes its a part of a your moveset, its partly my fault for getting hit by all of that garbage.

But .... ending a game to same move can leave you with a kind of OMG I wish I never see a rest again in my life.

Is it legitimate? Of course it is I shine spike every opportunity I get.

Btw before you go label people as scrubs or whatever read whatever they have to say.

I can understand you misunderstanding me because of my ambiguity especially since I'm posting to kill time.

But telling me I'm not good or I'm horrible at a game because I typed with ambiguity doesn't make me a bad player it makes me terrible at english. Which I am.
That is the scrub in you talking my friend. I'm sorry, but getting rested 4 times in a row is your fault entirely. The Rest attack is avoidable and offers incredible opportunity to be punished if it misses, there is nothing broken about it.

In regards to the IC freeze glitch, it wasn't reasonable to simply say don't ever get grabbed or else you lose. The glitch was banned from competitive play because it was a broken tactic. Arbitrary rules a scrub comes up with, like using Rest is gay, are different from rules the entire community agrees on.
 

Teczer0

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When have I ever ever ever ever ever ever ever said that rest is broken and unfair?????

Please enlighten me where I said something within the lines of "Rest is a move that is undealable and should have been removed from gameplay"

So far I said that the Ic freeze glitch and peach bombing stalling is unfair and should have been removed.

Please enlighten me.
 

Warrior_J

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Feb 5, 2008
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Apparently that person and yourself have no real notion of honour or showmanship. When you have a duel, one where you count to ten, turn and shoot, it's pretty easy to just shoot your opponent in the back of the head once he's counted to two. It takes respect for your opponent to show them the same courtesy they pay to you, namely not spamming one move that's guaranteed to hit and kill without fail and actually put effort into a fight as they are.

Call me a scrub if you must, but just pressing one thing that always yields the same results isn't much of a game to me. At least in a one button RPG, the button does different things every now and again.
Counter his 2 second count before he gets to it.
 

Ztarfish

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'Rest is gay' (though i dislike the word choice) is not an arbitrary rule. Rather an opinion. If it were, a Jiggly player saying 'Rest is awesome' would also be an arbitrary rule and would thus promote scrubbiness. I could see your argument if he had said 'Rest is unfair', 'Rest should not be used in tournament play' but no, he just stated his opinion on one move. He didn't even say that people shouldn't use it.

Anyway, I think you're oversimplifying it. Recognizing that moves were implemented for a reason and exploiting your best chances to win are one thing, but learning how to exploit and implement said techniques efficiently while avoiding those of others is entirely another thing.
 

Teczer0

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You guys either misunderstand something or don't have feelings or something.

So okay I'll play along.

To be good at a game you can't have any emotion whatsoever.

Don't be happy when you play a video game. Don't be upset at ALL when you lose.

Don't do anything just play the video game.

If you died to a single move for the entire game smile and order a pie. Because getting remotely upset makes you a scrub.

Pretty much become a drone.

EDIT: Because this is getting dumb.

To the last person who tried to disagree with me.

HOW THE HELL CAN I COMPARE A TACTIC IN A GAME TO PRESSING ONE BUTTON ON A CONTROLLER

How is it possible for me to relate pushing a button on a controller to why I hate losing to a single move over and over?

Why don't you explain that to me first.
 

masterspeaks

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So because I hate losing all of my stocks to one move makes me a worse player?

Thats so stupid I can't begin to comprehend. Thats just how I feel about losing to a move over and over.

Your gonna tell me that if you get grabbed by an Icz player and get wobbled for 4 straight stocks you can walk away like oh well I just lost another normal game.

Congratulations then cuz you clearly have near 0 emotions.

Btw apparently m2k and Cactuar are scrubs too since they think jigg's rest is gay too.
There is nothing wrong with being upset about losing, so long as you don't direct your displeasure at the person who beat you. They were playing to win, they used an effective technique and you didn't have enough skill to get around it. Take your loss and get back to thinking of ways to get around that one move that beat you. You can break out of an IC grab relatively fast at under 50%. It is up to you to pressure your opponent and get rid of nana before then at least.

In regards to jigglypuffs rest... I really don't get why people use gay to describe things. However, assuming that m2k and cactuar think jigglypuff's rest is cheap, I am very sure they have found ways to get around being rested. Scrubs don't try to find a counter, anyone who uses that same "cheap" attack obviously sucks since they can 4 stock them with only one attack. Any comments they may have made about it being unfair were probably meant to be humorous.
 

Teczer0

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So pretty much you randomly just decided that because I think losing to 4 rests is gay that I have never ever in my entire existence thought of a single way to fight a jigglypuff that only wants to rest me?

I don't even know where you brought the idea that I harbor any hatred toward the player beating me like that.

Pretty much it looks like you pulled all that from the air.

Btw make sure you call some of the nation's best players scrubs.

I'm positive they don't like losing to certain things. But of course by your definition they get a bit upset so clearly they are scrubs.

Dam sucks to be me I only beat PC in a friendly like once in my entire life. Im pretty sure he told me he hates getting grabbed by a marth.

Well since he hates it PC obviously is a scrub. And since I lost to him you guys are right I'm a megascrub sorry I couldn't see this earlier.
 

Ztarfish

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Here: I hate Ness's Bthrow. It's crazy ridiculous. However I use it liberally and that's usually how I get my kills. I hate hate hate getting thrown by it though. Doesn't mean I don't find every possible way to avoid it like the plague.

Define me.


And just to clarify, I enjoyed your first post and I agree with you wholeheartedly, since the whole "DONT USE DAT MOVE ITS CHEEEEP" was the mantra amongst me and my friends and kept our play to a stagnant halt. (You should've seen our old matches, I dont' think we even used smashes). I just think you went a bit overboard in regards to TecZero.
 

Teczer0

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Counter his 2 second count before he gets to it.
I wasn't talking about anything else, I was only referring to the "rest" thing. That isn't gay. You're still a scrub, even if you only think one move is gay. Crying about a cheap move won't change anything.

^ post above me is a winner.
Here: I hate Ness's Bthrow. It's crazy ridiculous. However I use it liberally and that's usually how I get my kills. I hate hate hate getting thrown by it though. Doesn't mean I don't find every possible way to avoid it like the plague.

Define me.
Clearly you suck because according to poster number 1 this tactic is somehow related to someone rather playing an rpg and wants a button to do different things.

Or somehow pushing one button is related to tactic.

According to number 2 you hate ness's b-throw and think its gay maybe not very gay but you still think of the move in some way.

Therefore you are a scrub.

Don't worry I just realized I am too.

EDIT:

I agree with the IDEA of this thread btw I played SSBM pretty competitively myself and I play with Cactuar, Bum, m2k fairly often and I have beaten players that are considered to be pretty good or whatever so I believe I do have an idea what I am talking about.
 

masterspeaks

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Sep 8, 2006
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So pretty much you randomly just decided that because I think losing to 4 rests is gay that I have never ever in my entire existence thought of a single way to fight a jigglypuff that only wants to rest me?

I don't even know where you brought the idea that I harbor any hatred toward the player beating me like that.

Pretty much it looks like you pulled all that from the air.

Btw make sure you call some of the nation's best players scrubs.

I'm positive they don't like losing to certain things. But of course by your definition they get a bit upset so clearly they are scrubs.

Dam sucks to be me I only beat PC in a friendly like once in my entire life. Im pretty sure he told me he hates getting grabbed by a marth.

Well since he hates it PC obviously is a scrub. And since I lost to him you guys are right I'm a megascrub sorry I couldn't see this earlier.
You are correct, I was wrong in interpreting what you were saying... perhaps it the blue text :). There is nothing wrong with getting upset about losing, losing sucks. Maybe it is simply my way of thinking but if i know there is a counter for a certain attack and it kills me I don't view it any differently than I would an Usmash or Fsmash that could have also killed me. Your probably don't get upset when you get killed by the generic foward smash. It is the same for me except I have an equal opinion of all attacks.

Nevertheless, getting upset in a tournament is a bad idea. It devolves your gameplay and I basically advise against losing your cool because of such simple mindgames. When I kill someone with the same attack they often have the same response as you and it causes them to play sloppier to my benefit. I'm not trying to insult anyone in these threads, I'm just trying to help you become a better competitive player.
 

Teczer0

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Ok as long as I understand that emotions occur in SSBM I am cool with that.

I thought I became a scrub overnight or something reading this.

In any case it was all a misunderstanding.
 

masterspeaks

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Yes, I equate the adjective "gay" as scrub speak for cheap or unfair. This is a message to everyone in the forums. These are some definitions of gay:

adj., gay·er, gay·est.
1. Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
2. Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.
3. Bright or lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room.

If you are not using the word in one of these functions, please find another adjective. It is very rude to homosexual people, to have their sexual identity used as a derogatory term.
 

Gill

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
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229
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New York
Ugh. I'm all for competition, but heres what I say:

Play Smash in whatever fashion makes you the happiest. Make whatever rules you want.

Its not like Smash matters in reality.
 

Samochan

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I'm in your house, dsmashing your tv
Masterspeaks, do not think that just cause you copypasted what Sirlin said on his website, that you get to label people as scrubs with wrong reasons. >_> You first need to understand what scrubbiness stands for. Gay is also used on many places to define a really good or broken move, like fox shine for example and when used on this contex should be nothing to get offended about, because it obviously has no relation to anything homosexual.

I doubt you would not find it annoying if peach were to dsmash you 50 times in a match, marth chainthrow you every stock to death, jiggs resting all your lives and fox shinspiking the same. The definition of a scrub does not include what you might feel about some certain moves, but what you do. If a scrub deems jiggs rest cheap, they will not use it and they will not play to win. M2k feels jiggs rest is a gay move because he has been rested many times cause he plays fox, but plays to win and if he were to use jigglypuff, he'd use the same move without any regard to how much his his opponent might get annoyed by the fact he got rested yet again. Scrubs do not learn to live with the gay moves, but good players will and they abuse them, get hit by them and punish them when they can.
 

HiIH

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Atlanta, Ga
Masterspeaks said:
Yes, I equate the adjective "gay" as scrub speak for cheap or unfair. This is a message to everyone in the forums. These are some definitions of gay:

adj., gay·er, gay·est.
1. Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
2. Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry.
3. Bright or lively, especially in color: a gay, sunny room.

If you are not using the word in one of these functions, please find another adjective. It is very rude to homosexual people, to have their sexual identity used as a derogatory term.
Stop being so gay about it.
 

masterspeaks

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Masterspeaks, do not think that just cause you copypasted what Sirlin said on his website, that you get to label people as scrubs with wrong reasons. >_> You first need to understand what scrubbiness stands for. Gay is also used on many places to define a really good or broken move, like fox shine for example and when used on this contex should be nothing to get offended about, because it obviously has no relation to anything homosexual.

I doubt you would not find it annoying if peach were to dsmash you 50 times in a match, marth chainthrow you every stock to death, jiggs resting all your lives and fox shinspiking the same. The definition of a scrub does not include what you might feel about some certain moves, but what you do. If a scrub deems jiggs rest cheap, they will not use it and they will not play to win. M2k feels jiggs rest is a gay move because he has been rested many times cause he plays fox, but plays to win and if he were to use jigglypuff, he'd use the same move without any regard to how much his his opponent might get annoyed by the fact he got rested yet again. Scrubs do not learn to live with the gay moves, but good players will and they abuse them, get hit by them and punish them when they can.
In regards to using the word gay, why not simply say a move is really good or broken. It is beyond childish for people to use it regardless of context.

You are correct in saying I would not find it annoying, because aside from it not likely happening, the game isn't so broken that someone could exclusively use those moves and kill me. They would have to set up with something or finish the chain grab with a tip. If I were to die, as a result of said attack it would be my fault, and I would clearly need to go practice before entering a tournament. I said I had some confusion as to what Teczero meant. I assumed Teczero was calling rest gay/cheap/broken because he could not find a way to counter it.

While I did copy and paste Sirlin's article I clearly credited him in the OP. Nevertheless, just because he chose to write it out in an eloquent fashion does not mean the ideas are exclusively his. I thought the same way he does long before I read his work. I merely think he put it into words better than I could. I am not saying I'm some perfect gamer, please tell me if I say something that is incorrect and I will try to back up my argument.
 
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