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The Great Debate

Jam Stunna

Writer of Fortune
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The Great Debate
By Jamil Ragland

I am attempting to analyze the current Brawl vs. Melee debate in an intellectual manner. I hope that what I write will be useful, and I welcome open and intelligent discussion of the following essay.


Since the announcement of Super Smash Bros. Brawl at E3 2006, the Smash community was eager to get its hands on it. This eagerness was most apparent in the competitive Smash scene, where pros and amateurs alike were anticipating the possibility of dissecting a new game in the same way Melee had been. However, almost immediately that possibility began to fade. Gimpyfish and HugS’ E for All impressions began delivering the bad news. Brawl was slower and floatier than its predecessor. In addition, two of the core techniques that pushed Melee forward competitively had been removed, namely wavedashing and L-cancelling. Despite this, there were those, myself included, that held out hope that new things would be discovered to take their place.

The game hit Japan a month before us, and many American Smashers were able to play pirated copies. The bad news got worse: auto-sweet spotting, lack of combos, no crouch canceling, etc. The community was beginning to split into the pro-Brawl faction and the anti-Brawl faction. Pro-Brawlers, me included once again, argued that it was unfair for a few American Smashers to decide for the many that it was not tournament worthy. Give it time, we said. After all, Melee wasn’t cracked in a month.

Now, the game is available in the States for all to play. I had made the statement previously that we should give Brawl at least six months to prove itself. After having the game for two weeks though, there is but one unavoidable conclusion: Brawl was simply not intended to be a tournament game.

Before I continue, I feel it necessary to establish my Smash credentials, so to speak. I’ve been playing Smash ever since the original in 1999, and I joined the tournament scene backing 2005. I am currently ranked 9th in the state of Connecticut, which are of course Melee rankings. I have worked very hard to improve, but readily admit to being a middle-of-the-pack Smasher when it comes to the competitive tournament scene.

Now that you know a little more about me, I will jump straight into the arguments. What do I mean when I say Brawl was not intended to be played in tournaments? The same thing could be said about Melee, and you’d be right. However, the developers at Nintendo accidentally created one of the most balanced and deep fighting games ever in Melee. It was not their intent to make a tournament fighter, but they did anyway. When it came to Brawl’s development, it seems that the purposefully altered the foundations of Melee to discourage tournament play.

The most obvious example of this is the floatier, slower pace of the game. That fundamental engine change makes many of the techniques perfected in Melee impossible. Chain grabs (in most cases), combos, tech-chasing and many of the technical aspects in Melee are either gone or rendered useless. The knockback and trajectory properties of many moves have been altered to discourage combos. For example, Peach’s dair to nair combo is now impossible, since in Brawl the last hit of her dair has knockback. The Ice Climbers’ down smash now hits up more than sideways, making it easier to recover from. Some might call these changes character balancing, but further analysis reveals that the developers most likely intended these changes to make the game fairer, or in other words, easier.

There are numerous examples of the game becoming easier, and auto-sweet spotting is one. Missing a sweet spot in Melee usually meant death, but now the game removes that vulnerability by doing it for you. This change is compounded by the floaty engine, which allows any character to recover from almost anywhere on any stage. Falco’s poor recovery is a non-factor in Brawl, because he’ll drift far enough towards the stage that it doesn’t matter. Air dodging has been made to be nearly unpunishable, as well as shielding. All these changes make the game extremely forgiving, and easier for the mass market it’s targeted at.

But the most egregious change is easily the tripping mechanic. This happens completely at random, and leaves the player in an extremely vulnerable position. The entire point of tournament play is to remove random elements from gameplay in order to give an accurate depiction of player skill. This is why certain stages are banned, and why each set has more than one match. Repetition controls for random elements such as phantom hits, Peach’s Doom Turnip, G&W’s #9 and other elements. With this in mind, it becomes apparent that Nintendo’s goal was to introduce a random element that cannot be controlled for. You can’t avoid tripping because you have no idea when it’s going to happen. The tripping mechanic is fundamentally anti-tournament, due to its ability to randomize the outcome of a match. While it’s admittedly rare, I have seen players trip into an attack they would have otherwise avoided, and it cost them a stock. This is fine when playing with Mom and your little brother, but it’s unacceptable at the tournament level where money is on the line.

The pro-Brawl camp continues to make the assertion that things will be discovered in Brawl that will make it more technical, and they are right. Some chaingrabs have been discovered, as well as techniques like B-sticking, stutter-stepping, glide-tossing and others. There will undoubtedly be more discoveries in the future. But all the glitches and techniques waiting to be discovered cannot change the fact that Nintendo tried their hardest to make technical skill not matter in this game. That decision on their part makes the game not suitable for tournament play. Tech skill matters in every professional sport, be it Smash or basketball. If they widened the hoop in basketball to five feet, it would be easier for everyone because it requires less skill, but it would obviously rob the sport of competitiveness.

The reason why this argument has become so intractable is because both sides of the debate have been reduced to non-representative caricatures. The anti-Brawl crowd is seen as an elitist group of pros who don’t want a new game to challenge their superiority. Conversely, the pro-Brawl group is seen as a vast coalition of scrubs and noobs who see this new game as their chance to have success. Neither of these characterizations are accurate, yet they have taken root and caused a gulf between the two camps. There needs to be an objective third party observer, and that person is my wife.

My wife has been Smashing since we started dating almost two years ago. She’s been to a few tournaments, and participated in one. She’s not a scrub, and she’s not a pro. She’s just someone who enjoys the tournament style of play (1v1, no items, neutral stages) and the occasional tournament. We’d owned Brawl for about a week, and I asked her for her thoughts on the game. “It’s fun, but you don’t have to think,” she said. She went on to say that she missed L-canceling, that the weight and floatiness of the game felt wrong, and that it was too easy. But she summed up her feeling this way: “Everything about Brawl, the music, the stages, the characters, is fantastic. Everything except the gameplay.” In that conversation, my wife vocalized everything that I’d been trying to avoid admitting to myself. Brawl’s bells and whistles are top notch, but the fighting engine leaves a lot to be desired for the tournament player.

All of the negativity in this essay may lead you to think that I hate Brawl. To the contrary, I love the game. I think it’s fantastic, and I’ve had an incredibly good time playing it. The music alone is worth the price of admission. But I enjoy it in a very superficial way. When I played Melee, I always played tournament style, even with my friends and my wife. That was most enjoyable for us. In Brawl though, I don’t care about stages or counterpicks, I just want three other people to play with to have a great time. That’s what Brawl was designed for, to be a party game. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that goal, and it succeeds wonderfully at it. But obviously, that does not work for tournament play.

Brawl is the latest example of Nintendo’s philosophy regarding the Wii. Their oft-stated goal is to expand the videogame market beyond the 18-36 year old male demographic. They have achieved that by creating a simple point-and-click interface for their system. Their goal is also to bring in the casual gamer, and this philosophy is apparent in the Wii’s game selection. 360 and PS3 get Resident Evil 5,Wii gets Umbrella Chronicles. 360/PS3 get Soul Calibur IV, Wii gets Soul Calibur Legends. Nintendo even does it to themselves. The DS gets Dragon Quest IX, the Wii gets Dragon Quest Swords. These are just three examples of the watered down, mass market friendly knockoff games that are becoming more common on the Wii.

Sadly, this trend is also apparent in Nintendo’s first party games. A friend of mine, Modest_Egoist, described it this way: “Mario Galaxy is Mario 64 for the casual gamer. Twilight Princess is Ocarina of Time for the casual gamer, and Brawl is Melee for the casual gamer.” He’s right. To be sure, the better player will win in Brawl, but since all the tech has been stripped out for the mass market, it takes much less to be the better player.

Despite everything I’ve said here, there is an indisputable reality that I’ve ignored until now: Brawl is the new game. As such, the natural momentum of “new and shiny” will probably carry the game forward, despite its lack of depth. Plairrnk summed it up when he said, “Melee is dead, and we have to move forward. Even if moving forward means going back five years.” There may simply be no going back. The closest example I can find of an entire community going back was the Soul Calibur II/III fiasco. However, in that case, Soul Calibur III was literally broken, and therefore unplayable. It seems unlikely that a similar situation will arise in Brawl, so it will become the de facto tournament game by virtue of being new.

In conclusion, I have tried to make two points here. First, Brawl is an amazingly fun and enjoyable game. Second, it is not designed to be a tournament game. The developers tried their hardest to ensure that, and they succeeded. But no argument that I or anyone else makes will likely be successful in stopping Brawl from becoming the tournament standard. That is the conundrum that the Smash community finds itself in today, and there are no easy solutions in sight. Once again, my wife has the best attitude: “This is what we have, and we have to make the best of it.”
 

Cookiez

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
564
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London, UK
I most definantly agree with what you say. Brawl, although a worse game for competetive play will most likely become the competetive standard, to be honest there's not much anyone can say about that.

Watch out for all the guys who are gonna rush in and spam your thread with "OMFG THIZ R OLD OLD" though.
 

Frey

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Near lancaster PA
Yeah brawl does have a lower skill roof, but basically,think of it like this, people will still host tourneys for it, despite the fact that the "pros" say its not fit for it and guess what? The money makers usually don't give a rats *** about the "pros" and go for the mob of people who want it. That being said, still brawl is no melee, I was expecting it to be like it and was disappointed, but i will still play, and when i finish off my senior year, and take a year off, i will try to goto some tourneys.

Brawl will get the attention, while melee will fade to the small community that will hold dear to it(think of the kailleran crowd, they still play smash 64 and play it well). Nintendo has been retarding their franchises down, and that does make me sad, because like you, I was one of the late SNES early 64 people who played games like OOT, Majoras mask, etc, and nintendo really did enjoy their customers when they were doing badly. I guess the wii showed how much nintendo really does not care about the people who made 64 and GC at least decent while, sony and microsoft were beating its ***.
 

Scar

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Sounds like everything that I'm arguing for, too. But the notion that Brawl will undoubtedly take over the tournament scene is simply untrue.

We, the community, control our fate. I think we're just going to split in two with some people in both communities. Melee will never die.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
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I posted this in the thread where your friend posted the essay for you, but I'm saying it again because it's true, ****it.

This is brilliant, thought-provoking, and well thought-out. You win the internet. Congratulations; send me your bank account and PIN number to claim your prize! :laugh:
 

Blackadder

Smash Master
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At first I only checked out this thread because it had "Jam Stunna" on it.

I'm glad I did though. That was a champion essay. I'm hoping that you're right, on the grounds of Brawl still having at least some tourny potential in the future, if any more decent Adv. Teqs are found. I'm a sort of casual/comp hybrid player, I play with several tourny rules in play, but I do it mainly for fun, really. So, I'm pretty on the fence with the whole debate thing going on. I can't offer much opinion for either sides. :(

Still. Very nice essay!
 

Wrath`

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Binghamton, NY
nicely put, i feel jiped of by nintendo, we get online and he makes it less competitive. why is all i ask.

but yeah, lets hope there is a brawl miricale, still a fun game
 

Namenlos

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
22
I agree really, but that is a little sad, I mean. I hoped the last 3 years for brawl to be as good for tournament competition as melee was and now I'm really disapointed. But as you said, the music alone justifies the buy.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
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wow no need for a new thread

since it was so long, i just read the conclusion first and since we are in agreement, i didn't bother to read it, but there are definitely already a ton of threads on this exact same topic
 

Jam Stunna

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Too good. What class did you write this for?
No class, I was bored at work so I started writing, and this came out. Believe me, NO ONE wanted Brawl to be tournament worthy more than me, but you can't argue with the facts.
 

verditude

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
346
Too true. Sakurai is a dolt.
Yeah, about that...

We competive players have to realize that, as the TC said, marketing deep games that appeal almost only to competitive players is not as profitable as watering down games so that new players will buy them. Even other companies have realized this; Halo 3 : Halo 2 as Brawl : Melee, from what I've been hearing. A lot of the techs in H2 like BXR are gone from 3, and the depth has suffered.

Melee only became competitive because it was rushed: wavedashing, dashdancing, etc. were results of shoddy programming. The gap between Brawl and Melee would be much smaller if Melee's developers had had more time.

So no, Sakurai isn't a dolt. He's a capitalist.
 

Frey

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 1, 2007
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Yeah, about that...

We competive players have to realize that, as the TC said, marketing deep games that appeal almost only to competitive players is not as profitable as watering down games so that new players will buy them. Even other companies have realized this; Halo 3 : Halo 2 as Brawl : Melee, from what I've been hearing. A lot of the techs in H2 like BXR are gone from 3, and the depth has suffered.

Melee only became competitive because it was rushed: wavedashing, dashdancing, etc. were results of shoddy programming. The gap between Brawl and Melee would be much smaller if Melee's developers had had more time.

So no, Sakurai isn't a dolt. He's a capitalist.
Vert you should put the WOW colbert as your sig.
 

DragonBlade

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
273
Yeah, about that...

We competive players have to realize that, as the TC said, marketing deep games that appeal almost only to competitive players is not as profitable as watering down games so that new players will buy them. Even other companies have realized this; Halo 3 : Halo 2 as Brawl : Melee, from what I've been hearing. A lot of the techs in H2 like BXR are gone from 3, and the depth has suffered.

Melee only became competitive because it was rushed: wavedashing, dashdancing, etc. were results of shoddy programming. The gap between Brawl and Melee would be much smaller if Melee's developers had had more time.

So no, Sakurai isn't a dolt. He's a capitalist.
There is a huge flaw in this type of marketing. Casual players don't try to explore the depths of the game and master all the necessary techniques to win at the game. If this type of depth was in the game, casual players would probably never notice it if they play with other casual players. If these casual players are indeed the huge majority, they shouldn't encounter completive players very often, even while playing online, at which point they can simply go play someone else.

Why not leave in the depth since it doesn't negatively affect the casual players, but positively affects the competitive players? The problem wasn't even that they couldn't make the game competitive because of the new engine. The game was more competitive during the E4 All demo. They clearly went out of their way to make the game less competitive. Its sickening.
 

pockyD

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yes, why not leave in game-breaking glitches instead of fixing them?

the problem isn't that the glitches were fixed - it's that they weren't replaced with more standardized options that allow of the same varied play

for example, remove l-canceling, but reducing all landing aerial lag by half removes an arbitrary technical barrier (there is never a reason not to l-cancel in melee, therefore it is superfluous and just gets in the way) but maintains the depth of the game (safe approaches, frame-perfect shield grabs, etc)

edit: first line is sarcasm

wavedashing definitely needed to go, i don't see how anyone can think that belongs
 

Darkurai

Smash Master
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Aug 20, 2007
Messages
3,012
Nintendo's at the top of the market, and they've forgotten the hardcore gamers who got them there.

We've been betrayed.
 

TheCatPhysician

Smash Ace
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Mar 10, 2005
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Cordova, Alaska
yes, why not leave in game-breaking glitches instead of fixing them?

the problem isn't that the glitches were fixed - it's that they weren't replaced with more standardized options that allow of the same varied play

for example, remove l-canceling, but reducing all landing aerial lag by half removes an arbitrary technical barrier (there is never a reason not to l-cancel in melee, therefore it is superfluous and just gets in the way) but maintains the depth of the game (safe approaches, frame-perfect shield grabs, etc)

edit: first line is sarcasm

wavedashing definitely needed to go, i don't see how anyone can think that belongs
the difference between brawl and melee is a lot more than just l-cancelling and wavedashing. just saying.

also for the record l-cancelling was not a glitch and was completely intentional.
 

pockyD

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way to miss my point - glitch or not, it is probably the most missed aspect of melee (minus trippinglessness)

you want an easier example to wrap your mind around, how about being able to do anything you want out of a full dash? in this case, this would clearly be stupid and not make sense, but it's easier for people who couldn't grasp what i meant by the l-cancel example to understand, and it definitely makes the game deeper

i mean come on, you can already turn around and grab out of a full dash very easily, why not just have fulldash pivots for all moves? :)
 

DragonBlade

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
273
yes, why not leave in game-breaking glitches instead of fixing them?

the problem isn't that the glitches were fixed - it's that they weren't replaced with more standardized options that allow of the same varied play

for example, remove l-canceling, but reducing all landing aerial lag by half removes an arbitrary technical barrier (there is never a reason not to l-cancel in melee, therefore it is superfluous and just gets in the way) but maintains the depth of the game (safe approaches, frame-perfect shield grabs, etc)

edit: first line is sarcasm

wavedashing definitely needed to go, i don't see how anyone can think that belongs
Sorry, if this sounds rude, but I can't believe how ignorant this post is. Do you honestly this wavedashing and L-canceling are the only thing separating the two games? Those two things may have taking out important spacing and pacing options that were a huge asset to competitive play, but even if you ignore those two things, they difference between Brawl and Melee very noticable.

If you bothered to pick up Melee and play for about 20 minutes, you'll notice how much more thought it requires to play. Theres just so much more keep options available. Brawl really trivializes a lot of aspects of Melee and prevents you from performing as many actions per second with its slow mostly non-connecting attacks. The only way you could miss this is if you've never played Melee competitively. If so you don't really have the legitimacy to make a judgment such as "wavedashing definitely needed to go".
 

D20

Smash Lord
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Mar 6, 2007
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Pittsburgh
I can vouch for PockyD. Yes, he plays Melee competitively. Yes, he can make judgements.

However, I don't think this thread is the place for arguements. I'd take it to Scar's thread. In this thread, just say "Good **** Jam!" and leave it at that.
 

TheCatPhysician

Smash Ace
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Mar 10, 2005
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Cordova, Alaska
way to miss my point - glitch or not, it is probably the most missed aspect of melee (minus trippinglessness)

you want an easier example to wrap your mind around, how about being able to do anything you want out of a full dash? in this case, this would clearly be stupid and not make sense, but it's easier for people who couldn't grasp what i meant by the l-cancel example to understand, and it definitely makes the game deeper

i mean come on, you can already turn around and grab out of a full dash very easily, why not just have fulldash pivots for all moves? :)
when i said l-cancelling isn't a glitch i just thought i'd throw it out there because people were calling it a glitch.

i'm saying the real difference between brawl and melee isn't just with techniques; there are like no combos in this game and barely any safe ways to follow up stuff because of the small hitstun. it's very defense-oriented. people explain it a lot better in scar's thread



this game sux
 

Tofu Beast

Smash Ace
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Mar 1, 2008
Messages
672
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Florida
I most definantly agree with what you say. Brawl, although a worse game for competetive play will most likely become the competetive standard, to be honest there's not much anyone can say about that.

Watch out for all the guys who are gonna rush in and spam your thread with "OMFG THIZ R OLD OLD" though.
OMFG THIZ R OLD OLD
 

quantumphotonkid

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 29, 2003
Messages
56
Location
Kennett Square (Southeastern PA)
What I see happening between Brawl and Melee isn't necessarily a decrease in relevant skill so much as a shift in relevant skillsets.

Wavedash, L-cancel, insane combos and other sorts of "tech" have been either removed or rendered much rarer/less useful. This clearly makes Brawl a much more noob-friendly game, as noobs no longer find themselves unable to do anything at all. It also annoys a lot of former (and still current?) pro players because the way they learned to play Melee competitively no longer applies.

However, I would argue that there is a different set of skills involved in the Smash Series. These skills include mindgames, tactics/strategy and so forth. This aspect of the game was (somewhat) overshadowed by the technical aspects inherent in Melee, as the mastery of technical aspects often did much more to improve your game (insane combos) than the mastery of non-technical aspects (mind games, which only really helped when the players were of comparable technical skill). The (partial) removal of those technical aspects (things like spacing/timing and teching still work well) may allow this second set of skills to come to the forefront.

My main point. While I agree that in Brawl skill plays less of a factor than in Melee (note: this is almost entirely due to tripping though. If not for tripping I'd say skill is pretty even in item-less limited stage versions of both games. As the OP says tripping was clearly intended to "nerf" skill and I really wish you could turn it off), I do not think that there is any less skill in Brawl. It's just that the types of skills most players expect to win with are not as useful anymore. If Brawl sees a large tourney following, I'd predict advice like "learn mindgames and tactics" to come ahead of "learn tech and combos," but this is only a change in relevant skill, not a removal of it.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
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Jun 10, 2006
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Orlando Florida
However, I would argue that there is a different set of skills involved in the Smash Series. These skills include mindgames, tactics/strategy and so forth. This aspect of the game was (somewhat) overshadowed by the technical aspects inherent in Melee, as the mastery of technical aspects often did much more to improve your game (insane combos) than the mastery of non-technical aspects (mind games, which only really helped when the players were of comparable technical skill). The (partial) removal of those technical aspects (things like spacing/timing and teching still work well) may allow this second set of skills to come to the forefront.
Umm... what game were you playing? Melee wasn't hard techskill wise, and things like wavedashing and dash dancing allowed mindgames to flourish. We don't care that wavedashing is gone, we care that we can no longer do the things that they presented (a safe method of approaching and retreating). Brawl limits your movement options, which in turn limits your mindgames. The reason that people are saying mindgames are so important in brawl is because there really is nothing else. However, mindgames were more complex and strategic in melee, simply because we had better things to work with (that's where techskill comes in.) On offense, in addition to all the options brawl has, we also had dashing in and immediately moving back out (with either wavedashing or dash dancing), running behind them and canceling your dash with a crouch so that you could smash, tilt, whatever, approaching with an L-canceled aerial to avoid being shield grab, and just more options in general for approaching. These things were removed, but nothing significant has been put in to replace them.

There's less mindgames in brawl than there are in melee, simply because you can't do as much stuff in brawl as you could in melee. Sakurai took out advance techs specifically to dumb down the game for casual players. He doesn't want you to have to spend any more than ten minutes (which is the amount of time it took to learn how to wavedash) practicing this game. He doesn't want anybody to be better than anybody else, no matter how long they've practiced. He doesn't like the idea of people getting good, so he purposefully removed options from the players and included things like tripping, multiple airdodges, auto sweetspotting, ect.

Sakurai should not be allowed to make the next smash.
 
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