Anti-Camping Strategies based on Specific Character Match-Ups (please contribute!)

There's one thing about Brawl that's really getting to me, and it's the fact that camping has become an extremely powerful strategy in Brawl.

Let me start off with something Gimpyfish posted in another topic on SRK (which I, unfortunately, am seeing myself):

after experimenting and playing the game enough the conclusion I've come to about brawl is that it's progression will be backwards.

The game starts with decent combos and gimp kills, and the only reason they exist is because people haven't mastered the defensive options in the game, as the game progresses combos will become smaller and smaller, and gimp kills will nearly fade out of existence. That's just how the game is.

In most games the progression is the opposite, starting with smaller combos and the like and ending with more elaborate things.

This makes for an eventual overly stale simplified game that isn't exciting to watch in a competitive sense, and will eventually shorten the game's overall lifespan.

discuss.

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Quite frankly, the excess of universal defensive options combined with the lack of universal approaching options makes this game highly defensively-oriented.

Okay, let's take a match-up for instance. If both players are being aggressive, they both approach each other and everything's hunky-dory. However, if one player is being aggressive while the other is being campy, then the campy player will begin to gain an advantage because the approacher can be countered in a myriad of ways. The only thing the approacher can do is either keep being aggressive, in which he will eventually get through but be at a damage disadvantage, or start camping himself, which turns the game into a camp-fest.

Now...I've already posted a topic on which levels facilitate this or discourage this (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158268) but it's not enough because I've realized that, without universal methods of approach, we're going to have to develop character-specific methods of approaching specific methods of spamming by characters.

Thus, what I propose to do here is to list specific types of camping which are generally encountered and then, with the help of people posting, compose lists of character match-ups which can find ways to deal with the camping and then capitalize. Hopefully...we'll have gathered enough information to make this easier.

I'll start this off...



Just as a general guide:
Italicized strategies haven't been tested yet.
Regular non-modified strategies have been tested but not confirmed.
Bolded strategies tend to work consistently.

Toon Link
My goodness, not only is Toon Link an absurdly good spammer but his aerials and relatively fast ground attacks and spammed projectiles make it difficult. Specifically with his projectiles, since they are all have relatively high priority (his boomerang cancels nearly anything out, his arrows are slow enough to make a wall, and his bombs just explode...), you can easily break through. One could try to approach above him, but a well-controlled boomerang makes it difficult (although not impossible). Once you're at him, however, it's difficult to deal with his sword. He's overall the ultimate camper.

Possible character-specific solutions

• Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot can actually power through an arrow barrage if he spams them, and sometimes he can do it quickly enough to overwhelm Toon Link. However, usually, once he's inside Toon Link dominates anyway.
• An attack that pushes past a shielded opponent (like Snake's dash attack or Wolf's f-smash) can actually go past Toon Link and capitalize if Toon Link mistakenly performs a grab. This works particular well on Toon Link because he has a long range. If Toon Link doesn't go for the grab, however, you have to get in an attack quickly or he'll run away and put you back at square one or attack himself.
• Counter-spam: R.O.B.'s gyro can make it through Toon Link's projectiles because it fires on a downward arc; just charge-up properly, jump, and shoot. If it knocks away Toon Link enough or forces him to shield, it's just enough to get in there and force a close-up match, in which R.O.B. generally comes up on top due to his superior range and priority. Unfortunately, you have to be really quick to get this to work, and you have to make sure Toon Link doesn't get away: whether you're winning or losing, you're actually in a better position to have Toon Link putting pressure on you via his sword than his projectiles, so keeping the pressure on him works. Usually, he will try to retaliate, but because you're so close he'll have to use his sword, upon which you can begin to control him through a careful spacing game.
• Like with any other projectiles, the space animals can shine the projectiles away. However, a good Toon Link will then resort to bombs and throw them at their feet, forcing an approach upon which Toon Link has superior range and priority.
• Timotee: Olimar spam is a decent way to force an approach into superior range

R.O.B.
R.O.B. can be a beastly defensive camper, mainly because his arms and rocket-blast attacks give him so much range and priority. He's also a great projectile spammer with his lasers (which have an aimable arc of attack of about 60-degrees directly in front of him) and his gyro which, when fully charged, is very quick, very deadly, and a great mine-like weapon (think Demoman from TF2). Fortunately, R.O.B.'s flaw is that all of his projectiles need time to charge: specifically, his laser needs a cool-down time and his gyro needs to be charged and can't be recharged if it's already out and lying around somewhere on the field). This is when you take advantage.

Possible character-specific solutions

• All of the space animals can shine R.O.B.'s projectiles away very easily. This could force R.O.B. to be a defensive camper, but the space animals' lasers can frustrate the R.O.B. user enough to force him to come out. Plus, on a head-to-head, the space animals can keep up because their attacks have superior speed, which help compensate for their overall weaker knockback and priority.
• Believe it or not, I've seen a good Sonic player take my R.O.B. to town because of his superior ground speed, which is where R.O.B. needs to be for his projectile spamming to work well. It's just very disorienting for a R.O.B. to try to handle such a fast ground character, which forces R.O.B. to take to aerials attacks, which is where he begins to dominate.

Falco
Short-hopped laser spamming definitely hinders approach, not to mention the lock that can potentially occur (although very unlikely)

Possible character-specific solutions

• Timotee: The psychic brats are viable camp-counters against the spacies (and somewhat ROB), now that they're decent AND psi-magnet has improved.
• gkrackerr: For Pikachu: Simply duck and then crawl towards him. If the falco player attempts to reflector you away, shield, then dash out of your shield and punish him. If the falco player notices what you are doing and rushes you, hit him with a nair or you can you shield and then attack out of your shield while the falco has lag. This is a relatively simple strategy but I found it to be really devastating. It's possible that it was simply so good because he(my friend Adi) hadn't faced that strategy before and was somewhat lost as to what to do, but really, if you space yourself as you approach, it's really simple to break into falco's defenses.
• gkrackerr: For Kirby: The same idea but a litte bit more tricky/defensive. Because kirby cannot crawl, you have to periodically dash then crouch to approach the falco. Kirby has excellent aerials and can space himself well w/ short hopped bairs which have pretty decent priority. The same things apply if you the falco rushes you or tries to push you away with the reflector.

Pikachu
For a campy pikachu, spam thunder, dsmash, and b.

Possible character-specific solutions

• The psychic brats can take care of the Thunder Jolt spamming...anything else?

General Character-Specific Approaching Tactics
While they're still character specific, these, hopefully, are general enough to allow efficient approach.

• Monshou_no_Nazo: I haven't really tested this enough, but I think Squirtle's Side + B can be used as an approach since the shell makes him immune to attacks.
• Spyckie: Pikachu is a very camp-happy or anti-camper character depending on how you play. Full hop b has no landing lag and can be followed up with a grab + the angle of the projectile is perfect for approaching from above safely. Also, the forward+aerial is a relatively safe (if mind gamed correctly) approach that can't be punished (maybe people don't have the timing down...).

This list will be added to once people begin contributing their own strategies and I come across other ideas/strategies on my own.

PLEASE add to this with your own ideas and suggestions, and PLEASE criticize what I have wrote and tell me what is wrong with them. I think that, if we come together as a community, we can start develop solutions to this camping issue, and hopefully make it obsolete in higher levels of Brawl play.

I'm also trying to develop stage-specific strategies for camping/anti-camping strategies.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158268

Haha, first post after lurking for a long time... You joined recently so were you on SRK before then?

I don't think you can eliminate camping completely... To be blunt, it's like saying you can win the war on terror. Terror is innate human nature, and people will use it. Defensive play in the method of using one move over and over is one thing that will remain as well... but we will find ways to beat it. Fireball traps still exist in Street Fighter despite parrying, safe falls, rolls and everything else in between, so in the end one way to beat a camper is not to let them camp. Even nutter-level offensive games like Marvel vs Capcom 2 have defensive strategies. Play someone with a good closing game; unfortunately it's late and I don't experiment enough to be specific, but that's a universal strategy for breaking a defensive player.

As such, despite all appearances I think Kirby can do a pretty good number on Toon Link. As was mentioned in anti-Pit discussion Kirby's Final Cutter offers a decent projectile, while giving you a slight closing option. If you're playing a defensive TL, good roll predictions leave him fairly open to smashes, or hammers if you're gutsy (being hit even once I think sends a good message to defensive players). I'd have to experiment too if copying TL would offer interesting arrow strategies to Kirby.

I wasn't on SRK ever. A link to a post Gimpyfish made on SRK was posted on these boards somewhere.

I'm not trying to eliminate camping completely. I just want to make it so that it doesn't have to be the only strategy people resort to. As of this moment, camping is a very prevalent and very strong strategy that is difficult to overcome. I was hoping to develop character match-up specific strategies that would help overcome this problem and help the metagame move forward...

Hopefully. I can't do this by myself...

Edit: How about adding counter stages that work against 'campy' characters as well? Not everything has been tested yet, but there are just some stages that just make it easier to get around characters that like to spam projectiles, or stages that make approaching much faster, etc.

Why not try to generalize it first so that people can get more ideas first? Camping is something hard to go against, but there are general ideas/techniques that people can apply to each character. But that's just me.

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The thing is, Brawl appears to have character specific techniques that other characters may not have. Even two of the ATs discovered so far, B-Sticking and that Sliding Up-Smash thing that hasn't been named yet only work at full potential with certain characters. I am going to assume that approach strategies are going to be the same way.

As for my contribution, I haven't really tested this enough, but I think Squirtle's Side + B can be used as an approach since the shell makes him immune to attacks.

Thank you. At least someone out here is thinking.

Mann: I actually already started one:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158268

I'll put it into the OP as well.

Monshou_no_Nazo: I'll start up a list that includes possible general approach options.

I think another large issue we need to explore is how to punish once we have approached. I know, I know...the low hitstun makes this difficult. But I know for one that it's still somewhat possible, it's just not as punishing as it was in Melee. I, for one, have discovered that R.O.B.'s A + A + forward-tilt + dash attack is a decent follow-up combo to approach (if the approach was successful) and if the spammer was near the edge it tends to result in them falling off and allowing for an aerial chase game.

I realize you hadn't mentioned Falco yet, but I would just like to point out before the idea gets lost in the mists:

The psychic brats are viable camp-counters against the spacies (and somewhat ROB), now that they're decent AND psi-magnet has improved.

As for Toon Link...Olimar spam is a decent way to force an approach into superior range, but that's the campfest you hoped to avoid. Mayhaps after more time getting camped I'll have a battle plan.

I think there's a difference to make between camping and being defensive. Camping is a broad strategy or a playstyle, while being defensive is an stance or a mindset. For instance, you can approach while being defensive - we usually call it pressure or spacing (when you're spacing, you're not being aggressive and attacking, you're being defensive and making sure you can attack safely/counterattack anything the opponent does). Camping is literally running away from your opponent, avoiding approaches and damaging through the use of projectiles, while being defensive is waiting for your opponent to attack you and (dodging, powershielding, countering) it.

Its definitely true that being defensive has advantages because in the clash, the defensive guy has more options. However, pure camping is easily beaten. The thing to note though is that camping combined with being defensive is definitely hard to break, because often the camper can successfully attack based on the projectile stun or positioning, but still holds the advantage defensively when you go to attack.

So... do you think Brawl will become more of a 2v2 tournament game? I don't think its easy to camp if your partner is getting owned...

BTW Pikachu is a very camp-happy or anti-camper character depending on how you play. Full hop b has no landing lag and can be followed up with a grab + the angle of the projectile is perfect for approaching from above safely. Also, the forward+aerial is a relatively safe (if mind gamed correctly) approach that can't be punished (maybe people don't have the timing down...).

For a campy pikachu, spam thunder, dsmash, and b.

Timotee said:

I realize you hadn't mentioned Falco yet, but I would just like to point out before the idea gets lost in the mists:

The psychic brats are viable camp-counters against the spacies (and somewhat ROB), now that they're decent AND psi-magnet has improved.

As for Toon Link...Olimar spam is a decent way to force an approach into superior range, but that's the campfest you hoped to avoid. Mayhaps after more time getting camped I'll have a battle plan.

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Well, sometimes getting into camping yourself opens the opponent for an approach. I'm not trying to say we should avoid camping. What I am saying, however, is that it would be nice if we could figure out ways to make sole camping as a strategy unattractive. The R.O.B. example I posted against Toon Link involves camping until you can successfully get in a gyro which tends to have enough knockback to open up the camper (of course, if you stick to this strategy, it often doesn't work since the opponent realizes what you're doing, so it should be mixed up with carefully placed lasers).

I'm not really sure how Olimar spamming would force an approach: the Pikmin themselves don't have any knockback and they cause a lot of damage if left alone, but Toon Link could shrug them off with an attack. Do you mean to attack Toon Link during the cooldown frames of his attack?

Spyckie said:

I think there's a difference to make between camping and being defensive. Camping is a broad strategy or a playstyle, while being defensive is an stance or a mindset. For instance, you can approach while being defensive - we usually call it pressure or spacing (when you're spacing, you're not being aggressive and attacking, you're being defensive and making sure you can attack safely/counterattack anything the opponent does). Camping is literally running away from your opponent, avoiding approaches and damaging through the use of projectiles, while being defensive is waiting for your opponent to attack you and (dodging, powershielding, countering) it.

Its definitely true that being defensive has advantages because in the clash, the defensive guy has more options. However, pure camping is easily beaten. The thing to note though is that camping combined with being defensive is definitely hard to break, because often the camper can successfully attack based on the projectile stun or positioning, but still holds the advantage defensively when you go to attack.

So... do you think Brawl will become more of a 2v2 tournament game? I don't think its easy to camp if your partner is getting owned...

BTW Pikachu is a very camp-happy or anti-camper character depending on how you play. Full hop b has no landing lag and can be followed up with a grab + the angle of the projectile is perfect for approaching from above safely. Also, the forward+aerial is a relatively safe (if mind gamed correctly) approach that can't be punished (maybe people don't have the timing down...).

For a campy pikachu, spam thunder, dsmash, and b.

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Y'know what...2 vs. 2 sounds like an awesome idea. *is actually feeling better now that he has realized that is a possibility*

Also, pure camping isn't very easily beaten, especially if it forces the opponent to be campy as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj6ZLFjtNVI

See what I mean? I'm trying to find ways to get the hell around that.

I'll add the Pikachu dealie.

General approach options:

Stop being ******* and playing the exact same way you did in Melee. This is a new game. If you can't pressure someone's shield the exact way you did in Melee, it doesn't mean that approaching is impossible and you should never do it.

On a similar note, mindgames are extremely effective, both in offense and in defense. If they think you are going to camp you, they may not see it coming if you just run up to their face. Likewise, if they think you are going to bull rush them, just wait. There are general approach options, but they aren't simple formulas such as "d-air the shield, lcancel into shine, repeat." There's a lot that could be accomplished by watching your opponent's reactions. See how he reacts to empty short hops, projectiles, well spaced aerials, etc. And find a way to manipulate them into doing something dumb. This can be used well while approaching them too. All characters can use mindgames, spacing, and timing effectively to their advantage, regardless of whether you play "campy" or "aggressive" or somewhere in between.

Rapid_Assassin said:

General approach options:

Stop being ******* and playing the exact same way you did in Melee. This is a new game. If you can't pressure someone's shield the exact way you did in Melee, it doesn't mean that approaching is impossible and you should never do it.

On a similar note, mindgames are extremely effective, both in offense and in defense. If they think you are going to camp you, they may not see it coming if you just run up to their face. Likewise, if they think you are going to bull rush them, just wait. There are general approach options, but they aren't simple formulas such as "d-air the shield, lcancel into shine, repeat." There's a lot that could be accomplished by watching your opponent's reactions. See how he reacts to empty short hops, projectiles, well spaced aerials, etc. And find a way to manipulate them into doing something dumb. This can be used well while approaching them too. All characters can use mindgames, spacing, and timing effectively to their advantage, regardless of whether you play "campy" or "aggressive" or somewhere in between.

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How are you going to play mindgames with a Toon Link that spams arrows, uses an up-turned boomerang if you approach, or throws bombs if you begin reflecting his arrows, i.e. doesn't use mindgames?

It's not a matter of whether the players who are physically playing the game can approach or not. We know it's technically possible. It's a matter of whether the mechanics of the game, that is the physics and the characters themselves, make it a viable option. Since we don't really have any easy of approaching using general tactics, I think the only way to do this is see how specific characters can do against specific characters that are being campy.

I think we should focus on character specific strategies, because it'll add more options to what we already have. More options is a good thing. I also propose that we focus on less projectile oriented or less spammy characters first, because countering projectiles with projectiles seems like an immediate given that not every character can do.

Monshou_no_Nazo said:

I think we should focus on character specific strategies, because it'll add more options to what we already have. More options is a good thing. I also propose that we focus on less projectile oriented or less spammy characters first, because countering projectiles with projectiles seems like an immediate given that not every character can do.

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I agree, but I'm just grasping at what I'm seeing.

My most played characters are R.O.B., Toon Link, Wolf, and Lucario, all of which, to an extent, have strategies which hinge on projectiles. I also play a lot with Ganondorf and Bowser, but I feel like they can't do much in general.

DRaGZ said:

How are you going to play mindgames with a Toon Link that spams arrows, uses an up-turned boomerang if you approach, or throws bombs if you begin reflecting his arrows, i.e. doesn't use mindgames?

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If that's all they do, good luck.. >_> This won't be effective if they aren't smart about it. What if I fake him out? He expected me to approach a certain way, but I approached him differently. What if I ran forward and attacked him in such a way that I either space myself so the spam doesn't hit but my attacks do or out prioritize his attacks? Mindgames still work.

Rapid_Assassin said:

If that's all they do, good luck.. >_> This won't be effective if they aren't smart about it. What if I fake him out? He expected me to approach a certain way, but I approached him differently. What if I ran forward and attacked him in such a way that I either space myself so the spam doesn't hit but my attacks do or out prioritize his attacks? Mindgames still work.

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I'd like to see this working properly in action, because I still haven't (I regularly play against a spammy Toon Link, and I know very well what his projectile options are and how effective they can be).

Plus, even if you did get in, the issue here then lies with the fact that his sword is also absurdly strong, out-prioritizing, and fast. He doesn't need to projectile spam, he could just camp in a corner and wait for the opponent to approach and he'd still do well. The projectiles just makes it way better for him to do this because it takes away a lot of the mindgames.

I mean, by mindgames, what exactly do you mean by things like "fake him out", "expect me to approach a different way", and "ran forward and attacked in such a way so that I either space myself so the spam doesn't hit but my attacks do"? The latter doesn't work against Toon Link because his projectiles travel very far, are very controllable, and can be fired in succession very quickly. There is no "spacing" involved in approaching him if the arrows can reach from all the way across FD. Mindgames don't count into the equation if the responses to your "jukes" actually work despite him not having to think it through.

I mean, you've really only got four basic ways to approach him: run at him and do an attack (dash attack, up+B what have you), run at him and grab, jump at him and attack aerially, or approach with projectiles. The first two is EXACTLY what he wants you to do and the third can be countered with his boomerang or his up-smash. The fourth approach is, I've found, to be the best approach, but this isn't something everyone can do.

There are only two real ways, I've found, that eliminates Toon Link's camping advantage. Choose a level that prevents this by either being too small (Yoshi's Island), having some sort of main platform which can be approached from below (Halberd or Delfino), or having platform set-ups that makes projectile spamming irregular (Yoshi's Island, Luigi's Mansion, the second area in Castle Siege, Lylat Cruise). Otherwise, you need a character that can camp back (R.O.B. comes to mind, as usual) or has superior range and speed (Marth and Metaknight, etc.)

What I want to find out is other ways we can get around Toon Link's spammy glory that doesn't require either of these elements, because we aren't always going to play on those levels and we aren't always going to play characters with projectiles. I'd like to see other characters getting a chance, maybe finding a way to get in without spamming projectiles back. I think the only way this is going to happen is if we can find specific strategies that work for specific characters, because that's the only way this is going to work at this level of play and this stage of the metagame.

or has superior range and speed (Marth and Metaknight, etc.)

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These sound like character-specific advantages that can be used to approach. Also, what about some of Metaknight's B Moves? Is the tornado affected by projectiles if hit from the side?

Anyone got any good advice for a Toon Link facing a Lucario that just runs away and charges his aura sphere?

I palyed some kid on the internet and everytime he got past 100%, he ran to the other edge of the stage and started charging his aura sphere. Rushing him like a madman puts me in a bad spot, and if i spam projectiles, he basically just dodges around while charging his aura sphere. I pretty much just had to get in his face and risk getting hit with the aura sphere everytime.

Coselm said:

Anyone got any good advice for a Toon Link facing a Lucario that just runs away and charges his aura sphere?

I palyed some kid on the internet and everytime he got past 100%, he ran to the other edge of the stage and started charging his aura sphere. Rushing him like a madman puts me in a bad spot, and if i spam projectiles, he basically just dodges around while charging his aura sphere. I pretty much just had to get in his face and risk getting hit with the aura sphere everytime.

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Throw his timing off when you spam projectiles and when you rush him, make some fakes so he drops his guard to go elsewhere. You can then use that as a way to predict his next move.

Monshou_no_Nazo said:

These sound like character-specific advantages that can be used to approach. Also, what about some of Metaknight's B Moves? Is the tornado affected by projectiles if hit from the side?

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Yes, the tornado sucks and isn't really worth the time using.

I'm not totally sure, but I think his Up+B has the highest priority and then his side+b. And it's not really reach Metaknight has goin' for him, I guess, it's his speed + disjointed hitbox.

Coselm said:

Anyone got any good advice for a Toon Link facing a Lucario that just runs away and charges his aura sphere?

I played some kid on the internet and everytime he got past 100%, he ran to the other edge of the stage and started charging his aura sphere. Rushing him like a madman puts me in a bad spot, and if i spam projectiles, he basically just dodges around while charging his aura sphere. I pretty much just had to get in his face and risk getting hit with the aura sphere everytime.

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Toon Link against a campy Lucario should be an easy match-up since Lucario isn't a particular good camper. You can literally rush at him from the air, air dodge when he fires his Aura Ball, and then start assaulting him with sword attacks. If your opponent is a newb, he'll keep trying to use his smash attacks, which will consistently fail against your much faster sword. If he's smart and keeps using his tilts, you can back off and try using your projectiles to force an opening.

I don't really play Metaknight, so I'm not sure how his Side B and B work. I just know they punish melee attacks, but I wasn't sure about projectiles.

Monshou_no_Nazo said:

I don't really play Metaknight, so I'm not sure how his Side B and B work. I just know they punish melee attacks, but I wasn't sure about projectiles.

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His Tornado can be easily countered by nearly anything, projectiles or not. All you need is something strong enough, like a tilt or a particular strong regular A combo, and Metaknight's just left himself wide open.

So I can just assume his Side + B sucks just as much, then?

I'm not too sure about your situation Coselm because I really haven't played against Lucario that much. I suppose what you can do is try to SHDA him and shield yourself when you hit the ground. If you can, try and RSHDA to him, but leave enough space so that you can easily see the aura sphere and shield/dodge/whatever, accordingly. I mean really, if he's just rolling around a lot, follow him, or push him into a corner where if he rolls he can only roll against the edge and you can attack, and if he rolls towards you, you can punish him.


But.... back on to the topic of character specific, I got some stuff against a campy falco.

Just a little while ago I was playing my friend Adi's falco, and I realized that small characters can simply duck under his lasers. The characters that I found best to do this with, and characters who are actually quite good, were Kirby and Pikachu.

For Pikachu: Simply duck and then crawl towards him. If the falco player attempts to reflector you away, shield, then dash out of your shield and punish him. If the falco player notices what you are doing and rushes you, hit him with a nair or you can you shield and then attack out of your shield while the falco has lag. This is a relatively simple strategy but I found it to be really devastating. It's possible that it was simply so good because he(my friend Adi) hadn't faced that strategy before and was somewhat lost as to what to do, but really, if you space yourself as you approach, it's really simple to break into falco's defenses.

For Kirby: The same idea but a litte bit more tricky/defensive. Because kirby cannot crawl, you have to periodically dash then crouch to approach the falco. Kirby has excellent aerials and can space himself well w/ short hopped bairs which have pretty decent priority. The same things apply if you the falco rushes you or tries to push you away with the reflector.

Well that's all I got for now, I'll post again if I find new information.

The problem isn't getting around spam. If you are a smart player, it is easy. It is just that spam is annoying and removes fun from the game. I'm going to beat some noob camping and spamming projectiles. It's just that it is unfun and lame.

It becomes more of a problem when playing someone competent, which isn't a problem, because trying to beat someone good isn't going to be easy.

I have several different strategies, (Character specific and non) That can easily get through the camping issue. I'll start off with character specific.

It isn't very hard when you play Wario. His bike is amazing. It literally can go through all non-explosive projectiles. So that's an easy approach. Considering not to me character have exploding projectiles, and the ones that do are pretty slow, so you don't really have to worry about it as much.

An easy approach to a campy character, whether they are using projectiles, or just waiting for you attack so that can counter you, is SHAD'ing.

Yes folks, Short hop Aerial Dodge.

If you fast fall this, you have 0 lag, and if you use it sparingly, it can become fairly unpredictable. It's like an invincible empty shffl. Normally, the reaction to a short hop is to assume the person will do some sort of aerial, considering this game is so, "limiting" and that is supposedly one of your few approaches from the air. But when you Short hop Aerial dodge, not only any attempt to counter with an attack fails, you will have the complete upper hand. You are close, they are in lag, you can punish with either a grab, or a smash or a jab combo, you can do anything you want. ^^ I find this strat in particular the most useful.

Well I have more strats, but I can't release my entire playing style can I? Lol, I hope I've helped you guys with your camping issues.

A campy Wolf is hard to beat, just because he forces you to get close, where his crazy (close to broken) smashes send you into oblivion. On top of everything, Wolf's blaster has short range (which makes it hard to reflect), a melee hitbox before the shot comes out, and does decent damage to boot.

Falco and Pit out-spam him. Falco's reflector powers through at close-range (as if he was attacking with is). Good prediction against him will limit his options (perfect shielding, air dodge). idk if it can be crawled under though.

Speaking of Pit, the spam king, why hasn't anyone said anything about him. (I don't play Pit or against him)

Monshou_no_Nazo said:

As for my contribution, I haven't really tested this enough, but I think Squirtle's Side + B can be used as an approach since the shell makes him immune to attacks.

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It can be stopped by several attacks, with PK Fire being one such example.

Also, Squirtle is rather open if stopped at the right moment. <_>

lol...you guys all have it all wrong.

the way brawl is designed and the way the metagame is developing...your goal should not be how to avoid spam, it should be how to spam better.

^_^

gkrackerr said:

I'm not too sure about your situation Coselm because I really haven't played against Lucario that much. I suppose what you can do is try to SHDA him and shield yourself when you hit the ground. If you can, try and RSHDA to him, but leave enough space so that you can easily see the aura sphere and shield/dodge/whatever, accordingly. I mean really, if he's just rolling around a lot, follow him, or push him into a corner where if he rolls he can only roll against the edge and you can attack, and if he rolls towards you, you can punish him.


But.... back on to the topic of character specific, I got some stuff against a campy falco.

Just a little while ago I was playing my friend Adi's falco, and I realized that small characters can simply duck under his lasers. The characters that I found best to do this with, and characters who are actually quite good, were Kirby and Pikachu.

For Pikachu: Simply duck and then crawl towards him. If the falco player attempts to reflector you away, shield, then dash out of your shield and punish him. If the falco player notices what you are doing and rushes you, hit him with a nair or you can you shield and then attack out of your shield while the falco has lag. This is a relatively simple strategy but I found it to be really devastating. It's possible that it was simply so good because he(my friend Adi) hadn't faced that strategy before and was somewhat lost as to what to do, but really, if you space yourself as you approach, it's really simple to break into falco's defenses.

For Kirby: The same idea but a litte bit more tricky/defensive. Because kirby cannot crawl, you have to periodically dash then crouch to approach the falco. Kirby has excellent aerials and can space himself well w/ short hopped bairs which have pretty decent priority. The same things apply if you the falco rushes you or tries to push you away with the reflector.

Well that's all I got for now, I'll post again if I find new information.

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Yeah we should try these matchups again lol. We didn't play them enough =P

Plairnkk said:

lol...you guys all have it all wrong.

the way brawl is designed and the way the metagame is developing...your goal should not be how to avoid spam, it should be how to spam better.

^_^

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If that's the case, then I guess we've figured out the tier list =/

Great idea.

Meta's Mach Tornado is a great way to plow through Olimar (pikmin death, and canceling his smashes lol), and is a cool spammable move in general. One of the spacies' lasers, I think it was Fox, won't cancel the tornado but will damage Meta, it still works as an approach.

i think sonics B move could be useful against toon link its pretty fast and goes in a curve so arrows cant get him and boomerangs dont do sharp curves and once hes at you its hard to hit his B move. Now that he has been hit once kick the **** out of him

The high priority startup of Sonic's side B is an easy way to counter some of the slower moving projectiles (fireballs, thundershocks, ect.) When Sonic does the initial hop in his side B up until the peak of the hop the side b has extremely high priority and will clink with most, if not all projectiles.

Pit's mirror shield is great for negating long range projectiles, and at mid range you can use his side b both as a reflector and as an approach method.

I haven't tested this, but Yoshi's forward B could work against some camping attacks (ie: Pikachu's nB). Also, Ness' and Lucas' PK Thunder (and sometimes PK Fire) can be a VERY POWERFUL ANTI-CAMPING MOVE. Of course, it's done by camping! And as stated above, Pit's dB is a good defense against camping.

pit ahsn't been mentioned much and he's the perfect camper since he can spam arrows,block anything you throw at him and his atacks have huge knockback making you repeat the process again

Here's my experience against pit. Zelda plays him very well since her firaball can't be cancelled by the arrows, and forces him to shield giving you a slight chance to close on him. Also zelda's reflector is exellent for repelling his arrows. You just have use those to methodically get near him.

The space animals can also counter him well. They all have reflectos and good projectiles which could force the pit palyer into the offensive in smaller stages. In larger stages though theyre lasers lack the range to compete with the arrows.

The psi kids could also theoretically counter his arrow spam because of the psi magnet and their own very good projectile. Pk thunder can also gimp his up B if he you manage to get him off the stage

This is not relevant to what you're trying to say, and you might not care, but

DRaGZ said:

can be countered in a myriad of ways.

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should be: can be countered in myriad ways.

lolgrammar amirite?

But srsly good tips, I'll be sure to use the anti-Toon Link tactic for sure.



Also, a universal approach method I like to use is just slowly walk toward your opponent and powershield (or just regular shield if you can't get it right, although it should be fairly easy in Brawl) and just go on from there.

JNS said:

pit ahsn't been mentioned much and he's the perfect camper since he can spam arrows,block anything you throw at him and his atacks have huge knockback making you repeat the process again

Here's my experience against pit. Zelda plays him very well since her firaball can't be cancelled by the arrows, and forces him to shield giving you a slight chance to close on him. Also zelda's reflector is exellent for repelling his arrows. You just have use those to methodically get near him.

The space animals can also counter him well. They all have reflectos and good projectiles which could force the pit palyer into the offensive in smaller stages. In larger stages though theyre lasers lack the range to compete with the arrows.

The psi kids could also theoretically counter his arrow spam because of the psi magnet and their own very good projectile. Pk thunder can also gimp his up B if he you manage to get him off the stage

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I hate spammy games and I hope to one day crush Pit's spammy playstyle.
I've decided to not main as Pit, but get good with his spammability... that way I can actually know how to crush his spammyness.

However, I have to note that reflectors will not stop a good Pit spammer. All you have to do is time the "bend" of the arrows so that you hit the opposing character with the arrow going slightly downwards. When the arrow is reflected, it hits the ground.

The concept is most easily done with Snake's Missile. When the missile is reflected, it's vertical velocity remains the same, while its horizontal velocity is inverted. This means if the missile is traveling north-east when it hits a reflector, it will be traveling north-west when it bounces back.

Apply the same principle to Pit's arrows and Pit has no worries about reflected arrows.

Plairnkk said:

lol...you guys all have it all wrong.

the way brawl is designed and the way the metagame is developing...your goal should not be how to avoid spam, it should be how to spam better.

^_^

Click to expand...

Oh, right. Screw over a lot of characters with no projectiles or have a good up-close game. Let's do that.

Lucas is my main, and I notice that I clank with several projectiles while performing his NAir, I'll do some more testing with the prominent campers (Pit, TL, etc.) but I know I clank with most any non-smash attack when I SH->NAir->DTilt/UTilt.