Official Snake match-ups thread *UPDATED 4-22*

UPDATE: Please see the new and improved thread here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175515

Purpose: A compilation of strategies while playing against those bothersome other characters

This was partially triggered by the "Who is your anti-Snake?" thread and I thought it would be a good idea to have all these strategies in one place.

Post your strategies and I will add them to this post.

Table of Contents

1. Lucario
2. Marth
3. Meta Knight
4. Olimar
5. Pikachu
6. Pit
7. ROB
8. Wolf
9. Zamus
10. Zelda

Lucario

abit_rusty said:

Lucario has a slight delay on his smashes, and they have a slightly longer than average duration. It's almost like facing an Ike that's quicker but packs less of a punch (unless his aura thing is really high).

Messing up spot dodge timing on his delayed attacks could end with you getting nailed. Characters with slow attacks often bet on predicting your movement, or a spammy spotdodge to land a hit. Rather than spot dodging, you could try power shielding or just plain old shielding, then follow up with a jab or grab. You can still opt to spot dodge, just don't panic and start spamming the spot dodge, just be patient and time it right.

Lucario's got weird disjointed shadowy hitboxes on his moves too, so learning to space yourself well is crucial.

Watch out for his jab, he can cancel the first or second into a grab or side+b. Luckily, Snake's own jab is pretty amazing in that you can cancel his attempt to grab if you spam jab as he is jabbing you. Be warned he will try to mix up his full jab combo with jab to grabs.

The aura sphere comes out reasonably slow, it's not hard to shield since you can see Lucario's initial pullback motion. Or maybe I'm just so used to reacting to people with projectiles (dang ROB ). Note that a Nikita and even a single nade destroys a fully charged aura sphere, so dropping nades between you and Lucario should give you some insurance.

Also, Lucario's up+b does not do damage, so be generous with your edge-hogging (However, don't edgehog too soon if he's got an aura sphere charged, he'll likely hit you as you hang). His up+b also has a fair amount of lag so if he tries to land on stage, punish. As always, your safest battle will be on the ground. Lucario has a decent aerial juggling game, using fair and up tilt, and don't try to come up directly from below him because his dair is crazy good.

Finally, try not to let him live very long...a Lucario with 100%+ damage having aura buffed moves can be dangerous. Shouldn't be hard with the almighty up tilt.

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Marth

20characters1 said:

Marth is too hard to approach from the air with his up smash and his side smash, So in the air with Snake it's hard to land safely on the ground so try to air dodge his sword attacks when landing. when trying to fly back to the stage Marth can jump off the stage and hit Snake with his sword and Snake has to attempt to fly back again which results in another swipe, try to air dodge this as well but it seems you can't airdodge immediately when just using your up b. If your an offensive Snake you can try to bellyflop with your backsmash onto Marth when falling on the stage or trying to recover but it is dangerous if you dont make contact first you will be back in the air with more damage and have to try to get on the ground again.

Marth on the ground is much easier to handle besides his very annoying counter, when Marth is running Shield dropping grenades is very effective to protect from a side smash or dash attack since the nades will explode when struck and you will be fine, alternately you can also try snakes triple A combo to cancel Marths initial strike and then hit him with the remainder of your combo. Dash attacking across the stage also works quite well if you don't make it your main attack. Dash attacking also bumps Marth into the air which allows for a quick mortar attack but Marth can still counter explosives so try to hit Marth when he is going up and not coming down

When Marth is falling try to draw out his counter early by jumping up and not attack fall down then jump and upsmash, Also launching mortars are an effective method when Marth is in the air and keeping him there or when he is trying to get back on the stage

When Marth is trying to recover mines aren't the greatest method to edgeguard by themselves It's best to place the c4 a little further from the edge Marth will most often try and grab on the the edge instead of trying to attack his way on the stage, I find the nikita works fine for launching him further but dont forget to cancel if your nikita misses. When Marth does get on the stage try to throw him off and repeat with the nikita method with your c4 as your support.

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Meta Knight

SK8orDIE said:

While heavy, Snake is slow, his air game is A55, his recovery is extremely punishable, and his best kill moves (AAA and f-tilt) are easily disrupted and punished by MetaKnight. Part of the problem is that Snake is such a ground fighter and a slow one at that. He needs grenades and mortars as cover fire to make his kill moves safe. Meta has many easy approaches and once he has Snake in the air, Snake's only hope is getting back on the ground and at a safe distance.

Shielding is good, but Meta's dash grab punishes that too. Snake is slow after shielding. Even Snake's mines can be safely detonated by Meta's down-tilt..

For me, Snake's best moves against Meta are short-hopped bairs (carefully, though), dash attacks and shield-dropped grenades. Throw a grenade and then do a dash attack to pick it up and immediately shield. This timing will grenade a grounded Meta without him being able to safely grab or attack. Don't roll; don't try to grab. Never fsmash. Always cook grenades, but keep them close. Always air-dodge. Spam mortars and learn to mortar slide, but switch it up and use it carefully too. Vary it's charge and stay near the mortar. When edgeguarding, don't steer the Nikita too much because it slows down. Instead, predict, point and let it gain speed. Don't be afraid to abandon a Nikita shot early if you miss. Otherwise, Meta will get to you before you regain control. Instead, try to drop it and get under it. When knocked off the stage, recover high enough to connect with dair and try to time it so that the last hit connects with Meta. That lands KOs. Bair works too, but don't get predictable. Don't use down-tilt on its own unless Meta short-hops. Meta will rarely get above you, so d-tilt and u-tilt don't get much play. If he does approach from above, vary uair, u-tilt and d-tilt to keep him guessing. Get under plaforms to entice him, and always keep a C4 planted above the main platform. Don't even detonate it all the time. Meta will just avoid it altogether. Just put it out there, let him get used to you walking over it and get near it after it becomes unstable. Let him trigger it. Snake's general game is about providing cover fire to make his kill moves safe. In a sense, Snake is constantly running away. Never stop running.

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Olimar

abit_rusty said:

What to expect:
- He will combo you out of grabs. A lot. You know you're facing a smart Olimar when he does upthrow to you. Upthrow on Snake is basically a free 25-30% damage depending on which pikmin he has. Less if he has the white pikmin, but nonetheless....Oli's uthrow sets snake up in midair just in front of Olimar, a little less than short hopped height. You're stunned at the end, so Oli simply runs under you and upsmashes. It works 99% of the time.. T_T. At higher percents he'll probably follow up with a fair or uair instead, but at higher percents, you can either Jump out of danger or air dodge.
- Also, Olimar's back throw is a pretty good KO throw at high percents. Watch out for that.

- Disjointed hitboxes. Don't get fooled by them, since Olimar looks pretty tiny. If you see the Olimar spamming fsmash, (he looks like he's throwing pikmin a short distance ahead of him) retreat. In my opinion, don't try to plow your way through this, you simply can't. A head on approach will get you fsmashed since his fsmash cycles quickly. If you try to roll past, Olimar just shrugs you off with a dsmash, just as deadly too.

- Get grounded! Olimar dominates Snake in the air. Literally, you will get ***** if you are directly above him and attempting a pseudo-sex kick bair (lol yea I stupidly tried that ._.). You have no formidable defense against his quick fair and bair, both as well as his dair have the possibility of knocking you out of cypher,and his upsmash is powerful unless it's a white pikmin. So just get on the ground ASAP.

- Pikmin throw spam. Bad Olimar players will toss their Pikmin wildly and recklessly at you. And so once they've used them up, you have an opening to move in. But we're talking about facing a smart Olimar here. Smart Olimars always keep Pikmin in reserve in case you bypass their pikmin spam, and they will use their jump to influence the trajectory of their pikmin to go farther/aim better. Once the pikmin latch onto you, they'll start....doing whatever they do...biting? hitting?....but anyway, you'll start getting damage over time. The white pikmin are especially dangerous, thier damage accumulates quick. If you're not careful, you'll gain a tremendous amount of damage if you just let them pile on you.

Let's deal with all that now, shall we?

- If an Olimar is running towards you, he's got a limited amount of things that he will do. He'd either dash attack (it's utter crap if you ask me, laggy finish too, I never saw the Olimar I faced doing that), throw a pikmin (um, not the greatest approach lol), fsmash (usually they won't do a running fsmash, it's a bit reckless) or grab. A good Oli will almost always try to get that grab in, combo you out of it, get you airborne, and start wailing on you while you're flailing around in the air. So what do you do when you see an Oli running straight at you? I'll tell you what you don't do, don't dash attack to attempt to beat him out of hit. Don't ftilt thinking you can stop him mid-run. Oli's grab is actually disjointed too o.O, it's good range. What you should do is either retreat or ground dodge. You may have to either retreat after dodging or dodge again, or counter with a quick/jab tilt, or if you're in range, a grab.

Retreating brings me to my next main point....
Be defensive. I mean, really defensive. It was when I actually started doing so, that I started to win my matches against him. Hit-and-run tactics and camping is where it's at. If you're expertly defensive, he can't grab you so he can't initiate any aerial combos. Basically takes away his KO potential.

-Shield roll nades in a path to deter his approach. This is most likely going to have him start camping with pikmin spam. Believe it or not, given enough spacing, Snake's camping game is superior to Olimars. First off, Snake's missiles and nades have explosive properties. They can KO, or at least pack a punch. Olimar's pikmin, though they rack up damage, can easily be shaken off with some dash dancing or jabs. They can't KO (well unless you get gimped by a purple one offstage, haha).

-So, your main goal is to outcamp him. Be smart with your nades, use the different ways of throwing (before or after shield drop), and cook them once in a while too. Add the Nikita to the mix as well. Now, Olimar's pikmin can put up a fight against your projectiles, at times nullifying them, but your projectiles come out faster. An added bonus is that they can start killing the Pikmin, and if that Olimar wants to live he'll start pulling out more, giving you more openings to throw projectiles.

-Rack up as much damage as you can camping this way, and the Olimar should eventually get sick of it and attempt to come at you. If he does, believe it or not, you must stay defensive. If you see the Olimar starting to be very aggressive, use dash attack/mortar slide to get him off your back. Distance yourself and keep racking up as much damage as you can, so that when you get an opening for a jab or tilt, it does some serious knockback/possibly KO.

-Once you knock him offstage, he's the one who should be worrying now. The Nikita is a superb edgeguard against Olimar. Mortar spam works well too.They will almost always go for the ledge to use tether, so it's not hard to predict their path. At times, they will use up+b early and use the momentum to land on stage, just repeat tactics and get them off again. The number one thing that Olimars dread is getting hit far enough that even using their second jump, they are forced to rely on up+b. Why is that, you ask? If you edgehog an Olimar's recovery (or any tether recovery for that matter), it will miss every single time. So essentially, perhaps jokingly , [knock offstage + any attack + edgehog] > [Olimar]. Use this to your advantage, Olimar is easily gimp-able that way.

Hopefully these tips should let your Snake put up a dam good fight against Oli and his minions of doom. I was talking to my opponent afterwards and he said he actually does keep track of his pikmin order so that he can maximize the potential/power of certain attacks. Scary....(o.O)

Good luck

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Pikachu

Farago said:

Pikachus who abuse Thunder Jolts can be very annoying. I recommend learning the timing and neutralizing them with your forward tilt. You can literally just walk slowly towards a pikachu and neutralize each one,
Some pikachus will jump in the air first and then spam this move. Learn to neutral-air them when they do this.

Pikachu's downsmash is incredible. If your shield is big enough block it, and wait for the opening. But if it's not, then never roll near a pikachu or let one roll near you.

Often when you knock a pikachu off stage, they will try returning charging their skull bash(side special). Usually droping a grenade right at the edge will cause pikachu to hit it causing him to explode. If he goes over it, then predict where he'll land hit and him while he's vulernable. Using your Nikita missile works as well. Lastly, if you're daring you can jump off the stage and spike him using your F-air. I've killed many pikachus in under 40% using this move.

When a pikachu knocks you off stage, it becomes difficult coming back when pikachu uses his thunder(down special). It's like an entire wall is just blocking you. Chuck a granade or two if you can, and just learn to airdodge through them.

Avoid going on top of pikachus to prevent getting hit by thunder. And if you get caught by downsmash, Make sure you DI out, because if it sends you directly upward, thunder will finish you.

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Pit

General Points:
You are more powerful than Pit so attack him with a multitude of attacks
Pit has a few strong attacks especially side smash
Shield drop grenades all the time
Play smart use your c4
Pit's smashes, especially fsmash, although strong, have short reach.
His grabs are also short, and generally pit has low priority.

20characters1 said:

A good Pit will always try arrow you at every possible chance since they are fast and rack up the damage, you can try to roll dodge but it doesn't put you in a good position to attack when you get close what a better solution is to crawl along the ground toward Pit you still may be hit by an arrow but it wont be as bad if you were standing. When you are crawling against Pit's arrows the best attack is the down tilt the leg sweep to send him to the air, It is better to make Pit come to you while your on the ground then trying to get your leg sweep in range since Pit will attack you before that time.

Approaching Pit is hard since his side smash is his best kill move and has good knockback, like Marth you want to utilize your grenades with your shield drop when Pit is approaching you or in the general vicinity
If the Pit your facing is more defensive and pulls out its mirror shield at all possible moments lob grenades at him, they will still hurt him when they explode or use your nikita and go over his shield and hit him in the back

Like all opponents use your c4 where you normally would, near the edges or on platforms.

Pit is crazy insane in the air, If your in the air and trying to land don't try attacking, just learn to airdodge Pit's sword swipes until your on the ground

If you get Pit in the air above the stage, he can really move with his multiple jumps and up B so just launch mortars into the air since he can air dodge the nikita so avoid that, If you manage to get Pit in the air and not over the stage your nikita will work here.

Pit is better at long range with his arrows so try an stay close to him since you can outpower him with your A A A combo. If you do fight Pit close range Shield drop grenades constantly and dash/mortar attack towards him when he tries to create distance between you. Pits swirling side B attack is annoying and you can get trapped in it I'd advise to not attack but get close for when he stops that move to run and grab him, throw him down then follow and try and grab and throw down again. If Pit tends to lies on the ground before rolling you can get a leg sweep in to launch in the air and follow with either an air up smash or an air bellyflop, If Pit tends to attack while getting up shield drop some grenades for him.

Pit is a lightweight with massive recovery and his arrows are the most frustrating thing in the game for me anyway

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ROB

abit_rusty said:

vs. ROB

I face ROB often...good ROB's are a consistently tough matchup.

First, what to expect:

-His lasers can quickly blow up your nades before they even reach him or while you're attempting to cook them. Did I mention he can angle it? In addition, if he doesn't use the laser for a while, it charges automatically and at full it becomes a large, powerful beam of light that can KO at high %'s or if you're at the stage's edge.
-His gyro (top-like projectile) also deflects nades and Nikita quite well, comes out fast, and a charged one can be a deadly edgeguard/kill move.

Now, you'd think that you would be able to just avoid these by approaching from above, but ROB can best Snake in the air as well, since his aerials have irregular advantageous properties and come out quicker.

-Most notable is ROB's nair, where he does a quick front somersault and burns his thrusters as he does so. These thrusters have a disjointed hitbox, as in they can cancel out any incoming mortars if they make contact at the right time. They also have a ridiculous priority over Snake's aerials, and they send you flying up at a near vertical angle. It's a nasty move that easily blows you out of cypher too.
-To complement his nair is his bair, where ROB takes a similar position as Snake's bair, flares his thrusters once more, and propels himself forward a little too. Again, thrusters have a disjointed hitbox. The fact that it propels him forward moves him out of shield grab range, even after a powershield. Oh, and the hitbox extends to his head so he can hit you on the side he moves forward too.
-ROB's dair is a spike move. Once more utilizing his thrusters, he boosts himself up a tad and contact with the thruster flames will spike you. This is meteor cancellable, luckily. Still, since it pops him up, it gives him a bit of a stall before landing which can cause you to mess up prediction, and puts him out of range of punishment as well.
-The aerials that aren't as bad for you are his fair and uair. Granted his fair can start up juggle combos and his uair comes out quick to juggle and rack up some damage, they aren't as deadly.

Now how the heck do you win against these odds?

Well, wins vs ROB are almost always about patience and outsmarting him (really, what Snake matchup isn't? ). Here's some tips.

-While his projectiles make it a hassle to camp, and even approach, the key is to move during the cooldown. After ROB fires a laser, he can't fire it again immediately. After he shoots his gyro, he can't fire another until the gyro disappears (if it landed) and even so, he can't fire another immediately anyway. Dodge(often) and (power)shielding are your best tools here. Use these to approach, and after avoiding his barrage of projectiles, you have your opening. You've got a few options. Get in there and mix up your grabs/jabs/tilts/mortar slides so you don't get predictable/shield-grabbed, or add nades into your approach (either tossing them in or dash attack grab) for some insurance if you're playing safe. If he gets away, repeat the process. This is basically how you will rack up damage on him.

-There's a few ways to deal with his aerials. First off, don't put yourself in a position directly above and in front of him (in the air). You'll almost always get out prioritized by his nair. If you're recovering and you get in that position, air dodge like a madman. (time it though lol). Get below him ASAP. Bair is a good finisher to catch him unexpectedly, but the lag can result in getting punished so don't make your bair approach too obvious. I also found that if a ROB is coming from above and tries to dair you, and you dodge or shield that dair, you can follow up immediately with a full hopped nair or uair. I don't recommend following a ROB upwards with your cypher for an uair finisher too often, because this is easily seen coming and he'll just nair you out of cypher. Fair edgeguard works above average in this match up because of ROB's predictable recovery, but know your limits because his recovery can surpass yours in terms of maneuverability.

Misc. stuff:
-Um you can pick up his gyro and throw it back at him. Just make sure it's stopped spinning cuz it has a weird little hitbox while it spins on the ground. You can also catch it in midair when he throws it at you, timing for this is just a tad hard. I tend to not mess with the gyro too much because I've been stuck in it and combo'd multiple times, with the gyro acting as a pseudo-wall (Snake between ROB and gyro) o.O.

-If you face a ROB that doesn't spam projectiles, consider it your lucky day. If they're actually expertly aggressive, then you should imploy your camping strategies and this most likely will just cause them to start using projectiles more often. And I already mentioned how to deal with those

-About edgeguarding...using a Nikita is always a good choice, in fact it's often my choice. Mortars work pretty well too. One thing to note is that ROBs sometimes laser or fire their gyro as they recover. Keep this in mind if you try a close up edgeguard, say mortar or an aerial. Be prepared to dodge or shield, and you can also approach with crawling and hopefully the laser doesn't hit if they don't angle it (or the angle is wrong).

-About mines and C4...I think it's personal preference. Keep in mind that ROB just sets mines off easily and quickly with his projectiles from a distance. Then again, you can use this chance of him wasting his laser/gyro to approach. C4 is more useful and better for mobility since you might have to be the aggressor at times.

Ok so I expect you all to turn opposing ROBs into scrap metal after reading this Good luck

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Wolf

Ruckus said:

I feel your pain but heres a few strategies that I've used when fighting a wolf spamming lasers

At start of round drop a detonation mine then approach quickly to the other side, he will most likely down smash as you reach him so as to get you when you land in front and roll dodge. you may take some damage but you must get to the other side and plant a trip mine. this restricts the playing field in half and force close quarter combat. This forces close quarter combat which snake I believe over powers wolf. And he will be wary of your detonation mine and when close will roll dodge. Never detonate the mine let him be afraid of when you will use it. So when he rolls away from the mine anticipate and fsmash on his recover point. When fighting wolf you must have nair mastered. you have to be able to use a retreating nair as wolfs smashes move him forward.

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Zamus

SirPsychoMantis said:

Don't use aerials except as an edgeguard and still watch out because pretty much all of Zamus' moves will have priority over yours in the air, ground is a different story.

Figure out the spacing on Zamus' side b so you know when she is going to use it, this is her goto KO move.

When you get hit into the air just air dodge as much as possible until you hit the ground or you will be combo'ed like mad by her up b, up smash, and up air.

As with most characters try to control her movement by using grenades.

A good way to gimp kill Zamus is by hanging on the ledge to stop her tether recovery. If you do this she will probably start using her down b to recover, so when she uses it, jump up and bair her, you might get hit as well, but she can only use her down b ONCE in the air, so this will leave her wide open to being gimped by edgehogging.

Punish missed grabs with a nice f-tilt combo / C4 stick / another move of your choice, f-smash usually doesn't work.

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Zelda

CaNuk said:

Well she can't blow up C4 with din's fire, so use that rather than a mine to prevent camping. I find that snake's dash attack is an excellent approach because it will bring you past the enemy if they shield and you can combine that with an instant mortar slide so w00t. I'd probably throw two nades and just dash in there...while doing that you're probably going to have to avoid some of that fire but personally the first thing in brawl I mastered was airdodging and spotdodging..so get that down and you'll be fine, you can also easily perfect shield din's fire.

Another approach would be to Up B overtop of her and drop a C4 down then DI back and detonate. The Up B moves fast enough that din's fire isn't going to be able to reach you, and then you'll be above her so no way to curve it there either.

After the approach you're gonna want to stick close to prevent that camping you were talking about. Now you said that zelda's smashes last a while which is true, but this means they are easily punishable if you simply roll past them (don't spot dodge for the same reason). Another tact could be pulling out a nade while you are falling from that first Up B >> Airdodge their inevitable Usmash/tilt/aerial (nade will drop below you) >> Keep the shield button held so that when you land it pops up >> explosion ownage if she tries to attack again instead of shielding.

Idk there's a ton of other stuff you can do to stop opponents with projectiles that get past nikita, really you just need to re-evaluate your playstyle and bring the fight to them. I find that different characters make me use snake in totally different ways.

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Glad to see I was inspiration lol.

Here is a thread I started in the Pit forums for help. Take what you want from it. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157943

vs. ROB

I face ROB often...good ROB's are a consistently tough matchup.

First, what to expect:

-His lasers can quickly blow up your nades before they even reach him or while you're attempting to cook them. Did I mention he can angle it? In addition, if he doesn't use the laser for a while, it charges automatically and at full it becomes a large, powerful beam of light that can KO at high %'s or if you're at the stage's edge.
-His gyro (top-like projectile) also deflects nades and Nikita quite well, comes out fast, and a charged one can be a deadly edgeguard/kill move.

Now, you'd think that you would be able to just avoid these by approaching from above, but ROB can best Snake in the air as well, since his aerials have irregular advantageous properties and come out quicker.

-Most notable is ROB's nair, where he does a quick front somersault and burns his thrusters as he does so. These thrusters have a disjointed hitbox, as in they can cancel out any incoming mortars if they make contact at the right time. They also have a ridiculous priority over Snake's aerials, and they send you flying up at a near vertical angle. It's a nasty move that easily blows you out of cypher too.
-To complement his nair is his bair, where ROB takes a similar position as Snake's bair, flares his thrusters once more, and propels himself forward a little too. Again, thrusters have a disjointed hitbox. The fact that it propels him forward moves him out of shield grab range, even after a powershield. Oh, and the hitbox extends to his head so he can hit you on the side he moves forward too.
-ROB's dair is a spike move. Once more utilizing his thrusters, he boosts himself up a tad and contact with the thruster flames will spike you. This is meteor cancellable, luckily. Still, since it pops him up, it gives him a bit of a stall before landing which can cause you to mess up prediction, and puts him out of range of punishment as well.
-The aerials that aren't as bad for you are his fair and uair. Granted his fair can start up juggle combos and his uair comes out quick to juggle and rack up some damage, they aren't as deadly.

Now how the heck do you win against these odds?

Well, wins vs ROB are almost always about patience and outsmarting him (really, what Snake matchup isn't? ). Here's some tips.

-While his projectiles make it a hassle to camp, and even approach, the key is to move during the cooldown. After ROB fires a laser, he can't fire it again immediately. After he shoots his gyro, he can't fire another until the gyro disappears (if it landed) and even so, he can't fire another immediately anyway. Dodge(often) and (power)shielding are your best tools here. Use these to approach, and after avoiding his barrage of projectiles, you have your opening. You've got a few options. Get in there and mix up your grabs/jabs/tilts/mortar slides so you don't get predictable/shield-grabbed, or add nades into your approach (either tossing them in or dash attack grab) for some insurance if you're playing safe. If he gets away, repeat the process. This is basically how you will rack up damage on him.

-There's a few ways to deal with his aerials. First off, don't put yourself in a position directly above and in front of him (in the air). You'll almost always get out prioritized by his nair. If you're recovering and you get in that position, air dodge like a madman. (time it though lol). Get below him ASAP. Bair is a good finisher to catch him unexpectedly, but the lag can result in getting punished so don't make your bair approach too obvious. I also found that if a ROB is coming from above and tries to dair you, and you dodge or shield that dair, you can follow up immediately with a full hopped nair or uair. I don't recommend following a ROB upwards with your cypher for an uair finisher too often, because this is easily seen coming and he'll just nair you out of cypher. Fair edgeguard works above average in this match up because of ROB's predictable recovery, but know your limits because his recovery can surpass yours in terms of maneuverability.

Misc. stuff:
-Um you can pick up his gyro and throw it back at him. Just make sure it's stopped spinning cuz it has a weird little hitbox while it spins on the ground. You can also catch it in midair when he throws it at you, timing for this is just a tad hard. I tend to not mess with the gyro too much because I've been stuck in it and combo'd multiple times, with the gyro acting as a pseudo-wall (Snake between ROB and gyro) o.O.

-If you face a ROB that doesn't spam projectiles, consider it your lucky day. If they're actually expertly aggressive, then you should imploy your camping strategies and this most likely will just cause them to start using projectiles more often. And I already mentioned how to deal with those

-About edgeguarding...using a Nikita is always a good choice, in fact it's often my choice. Mortars work pretty well too. One thing to note is that ROBs sometimes laser or fire their gyro as they recover. Keep this in mind if you try a close up edgeguard, say mortar or an aerial. Be prepared to dodge or shield, and you can also approach with crawling and hopefully the laser doesn't hit if they don't angle it (or the angle is wrong).

-About mines and C4...I think it's personal preference. Keep in mind that ROB just sets mines off easily and quickly with his projectiles from a distance. Then again, you can use this chance of him wasting his laser/gyro to approach. C4 is more useful and better for mobility since you might have to be the aggressor at times.

Ok so I expect you all to turn opposing ROBs into scrap metal after reading this Good luck

Thanks for the detailed post abit rusty. The more matchups we have the better, keep em coming.

/r/-ing tact against Toon Link

abit_rusty said:

-Um you can pick up his gyro and throw it back at him. Just make sure it's stopped spinning cuz it has a weird little hitbox while it spins on the ground. You can also catch it in midair when he throws it at you, timing for this is just a tad hard. I tend to not mess with the gyro too much because I've been stuck in it and combo'd multiple times, with the gyro acting as a pseudo-wall (Snake between ROB and gyro) o.O.

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I have two Gyro questions.
1. Can you snatch the Gyro out of midair with an air dodge? You can do this for other thrown items (bombs, grenades, Poke Balls, etc.), so I'd think you could.
2. I have seen Snake players pick up the Gyro (once it has hit a floor) with a dash attack. Do you still have to wait for the Gyro to stop spinning, or can you just evade the throw (i.e., R.O.B. misses) and then pick it up?
The second situation might be a bit less practical, since a long-range dash attack leaves you open to a laser, but I figure it could be useful.

Geph said:

I have two Gyro questions.
1. Can you snatch the Gyro out of midair with an air dodge? You can do this for other thrown items (bombs, grenades, Poke Balls, etc.), so I'd think you could.
2. I have seen Snake players pick up the Gyro (once it has hit a floor) with a dash attack. Do you still have to wait for the Gyro to stop spinning, or can you just evade the throw (i.e., R.O.B. misses) and then pick it up?
The second situation might be a bit less practical, since a long-range dash attack leaves you open to a laser, but I figure it could be useful.

Click to expand...

1. Never tried. I usually just caught it as I did an aerial, and often it was accidental Logically you should be able to.

2. I'm not sure, but the ROB I face does dash-attack-grab the gyro while it still spins, then again the spinning has no hitbox for ROB >.>. Need to test this some time, I did notice that after it stops spinning, it disappears in mere seconds. I tend to not bother with the gyro because I want to keep the pressure on ROB (unless he's been knocked away, then the gyro can be a quick little edgeguarding projectile).

anyone got any ideas against pikmen+olimar? that little horror causes me much grief

nayruu i remember reading a post about olimar. the guy said to spam nades and nikita a lot to cut through the endless cake layers of pikmin. ill see if i can find the exact post later..

*EDIT*

.D0c. said:

Use mass grenades and nikita to take out Pikmin. Even if you take damage from Pikmin theres no real knock back so you can continue your assault on Pikmin until Olimar is left vulnerable. Snake being a heavy character you can take advantage of him being able to endure some damage.

Use his down tilt also.

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Um that's kinda vague advice vs Olimar+pikmin. Nades I agree with, but toss them so their trajectory goes over his pikmin throwing. However, Nikita can't win vs. pikmin spam, it just explodes on the first pikmin it hits since they are recognized as an actual creature instead of a projectile.

thanks rusty for the clarification

Nayruu said:

anyone got any ideas against pikmen+olimar? that little horror causes me much grief

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Ok I played several matches against a very good Olimar on wifi today...soo...

What to expect:
- He will combo you out of grabs. A lot. You know you're facing a smart Olimar when he does upthrow to you. Upthrow on Snake is basically a free 25-30% damage depending on which pikmin he has. Less if he has the white pikmin, but nonetheless....Oli's uthrow sets snake up in midair just in front of Olimar, a little less than short hopped height. You're stunned at the end, so Oli simply runs under you and upsmashes. It works 99% of the time.. T_T. At higher percents he'll probably follow up with a fair or uair instead, but at higher percents, you can either Jump out of danger or air dodge.
- Also, Olimar's back throw is a pretty good KO throw at high percents. Watch out for that.

- Disjointed hitboxes. Don't get fooled by them, since Olimar looks pretty tiny. If you see the Olimar spamming fsmash, (he looks like he's throwing pikmin a short distance ahead of him) retreat. In my opinion, don't try to plow your way through this, you simply can't. A head on approach will get you fsmashed since his fsmash cycles quickly. If you try to roll past, Olimar just shrugs you off with a dsmash, just as deadly too.

- Get grounded! Olimar dominates Snake in the air. Literally, you will get ***** if you are directly above him and attempting a pseudo-sex kick bair (lol yea I stupidly tried that ._.). You have no formidable defense against his quick fair and bair, both as well as his dair have the possibility of knocking you out of cypher,and his upsmash is powerful unless it's a white pikmin. So just get on the ground ASAP.

- Pikmin throw spam. Bad Olimar players will toss their Pikmin wildly and recklessly at you. And so once they've used them up, you have an opening to move in. But we're talking about facing a smart Olimar here. Smart Olimars always keep Pikmin in reserve in case you bypass their pikmin spam, and they will use their jump to influence the trajectory of their pikmin to go farther/aim better. Once the pikmin latch onto you, they'll start....doing whatever they do...biting? hitting?....but anyway, you'll start getting damage over time. The white pikmin are especially dangerous, thier damage accumulates quick. If you're not careful, you'll gain a tremendous amount of damage if you just let them pile on you.

Let's deal with all that now, shall we?

- If an Olimar is running towards you, he's got a limited amount of things that he will do. He'd either dash attack (it's utter crap if you ask me, laggy finish too, I never saw the Olimar I faced doing that), throw a pikmin (um, not the greatest approach lol), fsmash (usually they won't do a running fsmash, it's a bit reckless) or grab. A good Oli will almost always try to get that grab in, combo you out of it, get you airborne, and start wailing on you while you're flailing around in the air. So what do you do when you see an Oli running straight at you? I'll tell you what you don't do, don't dash attack to attempt to beat him out of hit. Don't ftilt thinking you can stop him mid-run. Oli's grab is actually disjointed too o.O, it's good range. What you should do is either retreat or ground dodge. You may have to either retreat after dodging or dodge again, or counter with a quick/jab tilt, or if you're in range, a grab.

Retreating brings me to my next main point....
Be defensive. I mean, really defensive. It was when I actually started doing so, that I started to win my matches against him. Hit-and-run tactics and camping is where it's at. If you're expertly defensive, he can't grab you so he can't initiate any aerial combos. Basically takes away his KO potential.

-Shield roll nades in a path to deter his approach. This is most likely going to have him start camping with pikmin spam. Believe it or not, given enough spacing, Snake's camping game is superior to Olimars. First off, Snake's missiles and nades have explosive properties. They can KO, or at least pack a punch. Olimar's pikmin, though they rack up damage, can easily be shaken off with some dash dancing or jabs. They can't KO (well unless you get gimped by a purple one offstage, haha).

-So, your main goal is to outcamp him. Be smart with your nades, use the different ways of throwing (before or after shield drop), and cook them once in a while too. Add the Nikita to the mix as well. Now, Olimar's pikmin can put up a fight against your projectiles, at times nullifying them, but your projectiles come out faster. An added bonus is that they can start killing the Pikmin, and if that Olimar wants to live he'll start pulling out more, giving you more openings to throw projectiles.

-Rack up as much damage as you can camping this way, and the Olimar should eventually get sick of it and attempt to come at you. If he does, believe it or not, you must stay defensive. If you see the Olimar starting to be very aggressive, use dash attack/mortar slide to get him off your back. Distance yourself and keep racking up as much damage as you can, so that when you get an opening for a jab or tilt, it does some serious knockback/possibly KO.

-Once you knock him offstage, he's the one who should be worrying now. The Nikita is a superb edgeguard against Olimar. Mortar spam works well too.They will almost always go for the ledge to use tether, so it's not hard to predict their path. At times, they will use up+b early and use the momentum to land on stage, just repeat tactics and get them off again. The number one thing that Olimars dread is getting hit far enough that even using their second jump, they are forced to rely on up+b. Why is that, you ask? If you edgehog an Olimar's recovery (or any tether recovery for that matter), it will miss every single time. So essentially, perhaps jokingly , [knock offstage + any attack + edgehog] > [Olimar]. Use this to your advantage, Olimar is easily gimp-able that way.

Hopefully these tips should let your Snake put up a dam good fight against Oli and his minions of doom. I was talking to my opponent afterwards and he said he actually does keep track of his pikmin order so that he can maximize the potential/power of certain attacks. Scary....(o.O)

Good luck

omg great tips here, they relaly helped me deal with ROB's projectiles. I finally beat my cousin's ROB the other day (actually more thn once lolz).

I wish they had more on wolf though, he's a tough one too

edit: Snake ftw.

Geph said:

I have two Gyro questions.
1. Can you snatch the Gyro out of midair with an air dodge? You can do this for other thrown items (bombs, grenades, Poke Balls, etc.), so I'd think you could.
2. I have seen Snake players pick up the Gyro (once it has hit a floor) with a dash attack. Do you still have to wait for the Gyro to stop spinning, or can you just evade the throw (i.e., R.O.B. misses) and then pick it up?
The second situation might be a bit less practical, since a long-range dash attack leaves you open to a laser, but I figure it could be useful.

Click to expand...

I pseudo-tested both of these while playing at a friend's house yesterday (I don't have Brawl or a Wii). My findings:
1. Yes.
2. Yes after a shield. I'm not sure what happens if it falls short of you and then you try to dash attack it - hopefully, the same thing.
These are both minor, but I think the airdodge one could be a neat approach if the R.O.B. player tries to fire the Gyro at you (presumably he will at some point in the match).

StoleUrCar said:

I wish they had more on wolf though, he's a tough one too

edit: Snake ftw.

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Hah..yea...I'm not sure if I can take on a good Wolf after not facing one for a while...surprisingly a lack of Wolf players on the times when I'm on AiB (allisbrawl).

Anyone have some strategies against Marth he is the main player I play against I can lay out my strategy to try and help other people but I'd appreciate some further addition to my basic play style

Marth

Marth is too hard to approach from the air with his up smash and his side smash, So in the air with Snake it's hard to land safely on the ground so try to air dodge his sword attacks when landing. when trying to fly back to the stage Marth can jump off the stage and hit Snake with his sword and Snake has to attempt to fly back again which results in another swipe, try to air dodge this as well but it seems you can't airdodge immediately when just using your up b. If your an offensive Snake you can try to bellyflop with your backsmash onto Marth when falling on the stage or trying to recover but it is dangerous if you dont make contact first you will be back in the air with more damage and have to try to get on the ground again.

Marth on the ground is much easier to handle besides his very annoying counter, when Marth is running Shield dropping grenades is very effective to protect from a side smash or dash attack since the nades will explode when struck and you will be fine, alternately you can also try snakes triple A combo to cancel Marths initial strike and then hit him with the remainder of your combo. Dash attacking across the stage also works quite well if you don't make it your main attack. Dash attacking also bumps Marth into the air which allows for a quick mortar attack but Marth can still counter explosives so try to hit Marth when he is going up and not coming down

When Marth is falling try to draw out his counter early by jumping up and not attack fall down then jump and upsmash, Also launching mortars are an effective method when Marth is in the air and keeping him there or when he is trying to get back on the stage

When Marth is trying to recover mines aren't the greatest method to edgeguard by themselves It's best to place the c4 a little further from the edge Marth will most often try and grab on the the edge instead of trying to attack his way on the stage, I find the nikita works fine for launching him further but dont forget to cancel if your nikita misses. When Marth does get on the stage try to throw him off and repeat with the nikita method with your c4 as your support.

Thats my basic strategy for Marth If you want me to elaborate or expand on any of my strategies or if you can expand on any of mine I would really like some input to improve my game

nice marth tips.

I find his tipper in brawl KO's Snake at ridiculous %'s. I once got KO'd around 80ish% on FD at the edge with it o.O. Overall tho that match iz ez just camp and shield drop nades when he attacks .

i remember writing some tips about toon link but i cant find them lol

Nice Marth tips. Maybe it's just me, but Marth seems to be one of Snake's worst match-ups.

All Marths I've faced like to spam side-b chains...quite a nuisance Just DI away from that >.>

abit_rusty said:

All Marths I've faced like to spam side-b chains...quite a nuisance Just DI away from that >.>

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Yeah, it just seems like they're just out of Snake's range, but within Marths's all too often.

I played a very nice luigi today. The matches were pretty dang even....if anyone wants tips/is having trouble with the little green guy I'll try to help. Actually I might need some myself haha. Generally you will get ***** in the air, but hey what's new . Luigi just ***** harder. Overall Snake dominates the ground but Luigi's fireball camping is pretty effective, totally negates Nikitas and nades. It's a reasonably tricky matchup.

Sorry guys I haven't been on in a few days, I'll update the main post with the Marth stuff when I'm not really tired like right now.

Someone needs to provide some Dedede strategy. The chain grab is a beast against Snake. Although you can just attempt to drop a grenade to disrupt the chain grab, a Dedede with a flawless chain grab can put a large amount of damage very quickly against Snake given the right oppurtunity.

Against Dedede and Kirby I've found it easy to spike with the forward air (The Boot of the Giant) since they float and are suspended in air a little longer than most. Spiking Dedede with this move seems to be really effective considering he is a big target and the cons of his up b recovery..

I think Olimar, Marth and Dedede might be some of Snake's toughest match-ups.

/r/-ing Falco matchup information. He has a harsh chaingrab against Snake that I can't DI out of until at least 50%, and his spike is brutal against Snake's recovery. Oh, and lazers detonate grenades. Throw in nikita/grenade deflection and you have a rival against Metaknight for most annoying Snake matchup.

Could someone please post some Pit match up tips? I really do have problems with him.

Pit Strategies

I now play against Pit more than Marth so I'll try to provide some tips I hate playing against Pit more than anyone else.

A good Pit will always try arrow you at every possible chance since they are fast and rack up the damage, you can try to roll dodge but it doesn't put you in a good position to attack when you get close what a better solution is to crawl along the ground toward Pit you still may be hit by an arrow but it wont be as bad if you were standing. When you are crawling against Pit's arrows the best attack is the down tilt the leg sweep to send him to the air, It is better to make Pit come to you while your on the ground then trying to get your leg sweep in range since Pit will attack you before that time.

Approaching Pit is hard since his side smash is his best kill move and has good knockback, like Marth you want to utilize your grenades with your shield drop when Pit is approaching you or in the general vicinity
If the Pit your facing is more defensive and pulls out its mirror shield at all possible moments lob grenades at him, they will still hurt him when they explode or use your nikita and go over his shield and hit him in the back

Like all opponents use your c4 where you normally would, near the edges or on platforms.

Pit is crazy insane in the air, If your in the air and trying to land don't try attacking, just learn to airdodge Pit's sword swipes until your on the ground

If you get Pit in the air above the stage, he can really move with his multiple jumps and up B so just launch mortars into the air since he can air dodge the nikita so avoid that, If you manage to get Pit in the air and not over the stage your nikita will work here.

Pit is better at long range with his arrows so try an stay close to him since you can outpower him with your A A A combo. If you do fight Pit close range Shield drop grenades constantly and dash/mortar attack towards him when he tries to create distance between you. Pits swirling side B attack is annoying and you can get trapped in it I'd advise to not attack but get close for when he stops that move to run and grab him, throw him down then follow and try and grab and throw down again. If Pit tends to lies on the ground before rolling you can get a leg sweep in to launch in the air and follow with either an air up smash or an air bellyflop, If Pit tends to attack while getting up shield drop some grenades for him.

Pit is a lightweight with massive recovery and his arrows are the most frustrating thing in the game for me anyway

General Notes
You are more powerful than Pit so attack him with a multitude of attacks
Pit has a few strong attacks especially side smash
Shield drop grenades all the time
Play smart use your c4

20characters1 said:

Pit Strategies

General Notes
You are more powerful than Pit so attack him with a multitude of attacks
Pit has a few strong attacks especially side smash
Shield drop grenades all the time
Play smart use your c4

Click to expand...

Just a few things you may want to add. I face my friend's pit regulary. Pit's smashes, especially fsmash, although strong, have short reach. His grabs are also short, and generally pit has low priority. Snake beats him in those aspects, so use that to your advantage.

Also, Pit's up-b is very gimpable. One hit while he's using it and he falls to his doom. Nikita anyone?

-------------------

VS Lucario.

I'll add my take on facing Lucario, though the match up isn't that tough, but for the sake of completeness as well.

Lucario has a slight delay on his smashes, and they have a slightly longer than average duration. It's almost like facing an Ike that's quicker but packs less of a punch (unless his aura thing is really high).

Messing up spot dodge timing on his delayed attacks could end with you getting nailed. Characters with slow attacks often bet on predicting your movement, or a spammy spotdodge to land a hit. Rather than spot dodging, you could try power shielding or just plain old shielding, then follow up with a jab or grab. You can still opt to spot dodge, just don't panic and start spamming the spot dodge, just be patient and time it right.

Lucario's got weird disjointed shadowy hitboxes on his moves too, so learning to space yourself well is crucial.

Watch out for his jab, he can cancel the first or second into a grab or side+b. Luckily, Snake's own jab is pretty amazing in that you can cancel his attempt to grab if you spam jab as he is jabbing you. Be warned he will try to mix up his full jab combo with jab to grabs.

The aura sphere comes out reasonably slow, it's not hard to shield since you can see Lucario's initial pullback motion. Or maybe I'm just so used to reacting to people with projectiles (dang ROB ). Note that a Nikita and even a single nade destroys a fully charged aura sphere, so dropping nades between you and Lucario should give you some insurance.

Also, Lucario's up+b does not do damage, so be generous with your edge-hogging (However, don't edgehog too soon if he's got an aura sphere charged, he'll likely hit you as you hang). His up+b also has a fair amount of lag so if he tries to land on stage, punish. As always, your safest battle will be on the ground. Lucario has a decent aerial juggling game, using fair and up tilt, and don't try to come up directly from below him because his dair is crazy good.

Finally, try not to let him live very long...a Lucario with 100%+ damage having aura buffed moves can be dangerous. Shouldn't be hard with the almighty up tilt.

Strategies against Pikachu:

I've played enough of them, and their annoying. so I'm gonna try to provide some strategies against pikachus, and I hope others add on as well.

Pikachus who abuse Thunder Jolts can be very annoying. I recommend learning the timing and neutralizing them with your forward tilt. You can literally just walk slowly towards a pikachu and neutralize each one,
Some pikachus will jump in the air first and then spam this move. Learn to neutral-air them when they do this.

Pikachu's downsmash is incredible. If your shield is big enough block it, and wait for the opening. But if it's not, then never roll near a pikachu or let one roll near you.

Often when you knock a pikachu off stage, they will try returning charging their skull bash(side special). Usually droping a grenade right at the edge will cause pikachu to hit it causing him to explode. If he goes over it, then predict where he'll land hit and him while he's vulernable. Using your Nikita missile works as well. Lastly, if you're daring you can jump off the stage and spike him using your F-air. I've killed many pikachus in under 40% using this move.

When a pikachu knocks you off stage, it becomes difficult coming back when pikachu uses his thunder(down special). It's like an entire wall is just blocking you. Chuck a granade or two if you can, and just learn to airdodge through them.

Avoid going on top of pkachus to prevent getting hit by thunder. And if you get caught by downsmash, Make sure you DI out, because if it sends you directly upward, thunder will finish you.

I need some help against toon link...

once he gets me in the air I am screwed.

Excellent strategies from everyone, the main post has been updated. I may start adding quick summaries so people coming into this thread don't feel too overwhelmed by all the text.

There's something you're missing about Lucario that I think is worth taking into account:

Lucario's jab-jab side B combo can't be interrupted by Snake if it's done perfectly. And what's more, when Lucario is anywhere from 0 tp 40%, he can use side B to chain throw Snake for a 90% damage combo that leads into an aerial chase.

Now I've tested this combo with various DI and escape attempts, and because of the intersting stun properties on force palm, coupled by Snake's weight, height and falling speed, Snake is one of the few characters in the game that Lucario can chain throw right up to 90% without any chance of escaping.

I should have a video of this combo up once I get somebody to film my replay.

So really, at the start of a match, if you see a Lucario player fooling around with jabs and force palms, try to hit him for 50% as fast as possible. At that %, the most he can chain throw you to is about 60%.

Lucario's hitboxes also outrange and outprioritise a lot of Snake's close-range attacks, except perhaps his dash attack. Due to Lucario's incredible range and priority in the air as well, Snake is very vulnerable to his juggles and combos. The most notable of these is Fair to Nair, which is a guaranteed combo at most % and has zero landing lag. Many Lucario players will like to approach with a shorthopped Fair, Nair and then jab on landing, or any other fast attack.

Also worth noting: his dodge is incredibly good. Lucario is actually a very defensive character. His hitboxes are huge and all of them linger, so trading hits with him is never a good idea. He has less lag on his smash attacks than it seems just by looking at them, especially the Fsmash, and they have deceptive range. His Fsmash has more range than Marth's tippered sword, and half the cool down time after activation. Also, Lucarios will occasionally turn agressive without warning, especially when they hit 70% or above. This is a good opportunity to start doing 'nade counters and shield Fairs and whatnot.

Since Lucario is my secondary, I felt your assessment of him isn't completely accurate, so I hope this helped.

I'm very interested in what you guys have to say about the Falco matchup.

I know a couple of good, laser-spamming, chain-grabbing Falcos, and I can beat them occasionally but they give me assloads of trouble.

Technically, I can duck their lasers and shines. However, as soon as I pull out a 'nade or try to set a C4 or something, they shoot me, sometimes forcing the 'nade to go off. Because I can't really projectile spam like normal, it sounds like I have to move in... But that puts Falco back in the advantage, as me moving in means that he can start lasering. Sure, I could crawl towards him, but the range of his Jab combo and the quickness of his sidestep make it difficult to walk up to him and hit.

In addition, edgeguarding is a pain because I still haven't figured out how to hit him out of his sideB everytime. Sure, I could plant a down Smash at the spot I know he's going to, but in that amount of time he can simply walk back up on the stage, and doing it before I start edgeguarding is almost impossible due to lasers.

Normally in this matchup, I tend to try eating his shield, since the Falcos I play are dodge and shield happy. So, if and when I approach, I try as many ground D-airs as possible. This has done well for me so far, but I need it to change because he can simply turn around and grab me (many times for the chain-grab).

What are all of your thoughts?

Statistics said:

I'm very interested in what you guys have to say about the Falco matchup.

I know a couple of good, laser-spamming, chain-grabbing Falcos, and I can beat them occasionally but they give me assloads of trouble.

Technically, I can duck their lasers and shines. However, as soon as I pull out a 'nade or try to set a C4 or something, they shoot me, sometimes forcing the 'nade to go off. Because I can't really projectile spam like normal, it sounds like I have to move in... But that puts Falco back in the advantage, as me moving in means that he can start lasering. Sure, I could crawl towards him, but the range of his Jab combo and the quickness of his sidestep make it difficult to walk up to him and hit.

In addition, edgeguarding is a pain because I still haven't figured out how to hit him out of his sideB everytime. Sure, I could plant a down Smash at the spot I know he's going to, but in that amount of time he can simply walk back up on the stage, and doing it before I start edgeguarding is almost impossible due to lasers.

Normally in this matchup, I tend to try eating his shield, since the Falcos I play are dodge and shield happy. So, if and when I approach, I try as many ground D-airs as possible. This has done well for me so far, but I need it to change because he can simply turn around and grab me (many times for the chain-grab).

What are all of your thoughts?

Click to expand...

Yea, Falcos are pretty troublesome. I've yet to find a consistent strategy for them, but I can give a bit of insight into some of the problems you're facing.

First off, if you're at 40-50% or less, don't get grabbed. The chain throw can do a number on Snake, easily giving mid to high 50's% from 0% depending on whether the Falco ends it with a dash attack to usmash. Drop grenades to protect you from chain throwing until your % is above the danger range. Until then, keep your spacing and dodge wisely, and try not to put yourself in a vulnerable spot. There's really no other way to get out of the chain throw if the Falco is doing it perfectly (though online lag gives you some allowance).

Speaking of the chain throw, be careful of Falco's attempt to gimp kill you. When you're the in "danger-zone" percent, a Falco might try to chain throw to the ledge, and immediately use dair to spike you as soon as he dthrows you off. The basic principle behind this is the Falco is hoping you immediately use your second jump and hop right smack into the dair, thus wasting it and being spiked too low for up+b to do the trick. Sure you could bomb jump, but why make it hard for you when you can avoid it early? The main thing to remember if he attempts a dthrow->dair kill, do not jump right after the throw. Delay it and DI out of danger, and use cypher at the right moment to get back on stage.

You can get past his shine/lasers with your grenades if you cook them and vary the throwing angle...you just have to jump above the laser path. If you cook them, they'll explode if he attempts to throw them back/shine them back, and sometimes the shine blows them up in his face.

Falco's laser can't hit the mine, though perhaps he can illusion it to trigger it :/, but just keep that in mind so you won't hesistate to still attempt some stage control with mine and c4.

Because Falco's punishing moves are pretty dangerous, you have to be equally as careful with your moves to avoid said punishment. Do not finish your ftilt if the first hit is blocked or dodged. Do not finish your jab combo if either of the first two jabs are blocked or dodged. Jab and tilt spam is predictable and will get punished, and worse, it gives an opening for the Falco to grab (as you mentioned, he punishes you from a missed dair). Throws work well in this matchup and attempt some dthrow tech chasing to rack up damage. Don't forget you can also short hop dair directly out of dthrow (excellent for a low percent KO) which may also involve tech chasing, but it's a safer way to do it.

To touch on Falco's spinny jab attack. If that's all he spams, throw a nade in it and he'll blow himself up. I don't think there's any other way to outprioritize it from the front (nikita perhaps, but it's too slow). The nade from the front is the quickest and most reliable. Watch out if you get caught in this, chances are as you try to DI away, he will shine you. Anticipate this and shield as soon as you're out and you have a chance of blocking it.

When you have to play defensively, go prone. When you're prone, he can't hit you unless he comes to you. He'll either obviously run up and attack, or get in range and do his side-b illusion. With practice, you can down tilt him out of the illusion (train yourself to hear the ping and react to that). If he's being apprehensive, start doing some mortar slides and take advantage of his hesitation. You can work a hit-and-run strategy this way.

As with many of Snake's matchups, avoid aerial combat unless you're attempting a finisher or something. Don't clash with his aerials.

Finally, here's something that I don't think many people know, you can Nair him out of illusion as well. Since Nair has a huge duration (a perfectly full hopped one with all 4 kicks) and has a vacuum-like property that sucks the opponent in, you can easily catch a Falco out of his side-b if he chooses to land on-stage with it. Start to intercept illusion with nair and you'll soon see Falco attempting to go for the ledge, allowing for better edgeguarding set ups.

All in all, I feel that Snake should be the patient one in this matchup. Falco can rack up damage pretty fast, and your goal is to slow him down enough to throw off his flow and retaliate with attacks that count.

Good luck this spacie is still as much of a hassle in brawl as he was in melee

So basically it's

Dodge
Duck
Dip
Dive
Dodge

gotcha.

(Thanks a lot.)

I agree with Statistics. I think Falco is Snake's toughest matchup. I also think that once the masses figure out the new Fox, he will be Snake's second worst matchup.

Falco has five distinct advantages against Snake:
Aerial superiority... Falco's aerials come out quicker than Snake's
Snake's recovery is particularly vulnerable to Falco's spike
Falco's lasers can detonate grenades in Snake's hand before Snake can throw them
Falco's deflector hinders Snake's projectiles and close-range approaches
Falco can chaingrab Snake from 0-50%, which often sets up for a spike

Here are Snake's biggest advantages against Falco:
C4
Proximity mines
Snake's tilts
mortarslide
Snake's crouch allows horizontal movement beneath Falco's laser spam
Snake lives longer than Falco

Some initial strategy:
While you cannot avoid some aspects of Falco's gameplay, avoiding his laser spam at all costs will help keep Snake alive longer. When Falco gets tired of shooting at nothing and approaches, you have several options: dash attack/mortarslide, grenade (cooked and controlled in the air helps prevent them being thrown back or deflected), and d-tilt from crouch. Use your horizontal mobility while crouching to help Snake connect with d-tilt. From D-tilt, you can mortar, u-tilt, u-air, etc.

Snake has great tilts, but using them predictably makes you a target for chaingrabbing. learn to vary your timing between the two hits of f-tilt and the three hits of AAA. Also, keep the ground covered with C4, proximity mines, and shield-dropped grenades to help your approaches. One of Snake's best approaches at close range is a shorthopped neutral-air. The attack has four hits, the last of which has insane knockback, and snake can be directed forward or backward while doing it. If you can get a grenade on the ground beforehand, Snake will pick it up as the shorthop nair comes out and you can shield the explosion when you land.

When edgeguarding Falco, get a grenade near the edge and then use your Nikita. You can either aim directly for him or point it at the ledge. If you're going for the ledge, don't shoot it too soon. You want it to go straight to the ledge (gaining speed) and then waggle it around as as stalling threat or go straight for a stage spike. [this needs more detail. will update later].

Falco's chaingrab makes him a character you don't want to grenade shield. He will grab you and move you away from the grenade before it can blow up and hit him. Instead, keep your up and forward tilts handy and shorthop air-dodge to maintain mobility.

When Falco has you off the stage, Snake is vulnerable. Recover high whenever possible, because most Falcos just want to spike you and be done with it. Use a dair or cook a grenade as you come back to the stage, and mind your spacing. Also, don't forget about air-dodging. When recovering low, get just high enough to catch the edge and then airdodge into the spike. The cypher will rise up and hit the spiking Falco while you avoid his attack and grab the ledge. Another thing to remember when recovering high against anyone is that you can drop a C4 and detonate it as you fall. Use horizontal momentum to get away from the C4 after dropping it and then detonate.

SK8orDIE said:

I agree with Statistics. I think Falco is Snake's toughest matchup. I also think that once the masses figure out the new Fox, he will be Snake's second worst matchup.

Click to expand...

It's interesting you mention that, as I'm trying to learn Fox as well. His speed seems to be his greatest asset, so my Fox is about about shines (again), grabbing, and tech-chasing at the end of the day, but he doesn't really seem to excel offensively anymore (To be fair, I just learned about D-air approach -> U-tilt today, so that may well change my game).

So yeah, the space animals are annoying as hell. I wonder A LOT about mirror matches though. I suppose it's all mind games at that point.

Wow, great thread! Those Olimar tips are very good, now I can win against my brother (pretty good olimar main).
If somebody could do a Toon Link matchup, it would be appreciated.

I approach TLink almost the same way I approach pit...use careful counter projectiles to intimitdate and get the hell out of the air as fast as possible when being launched without ever throwing lower priority aerials to counter. Usually Snake fares better for me in platform stages against toon link (...but that can be said with anyone) Other then that I would love someone to touch upon the details of countering TLink's rivaling spam combined with his fast hitbox.

So... what about them Sonics?

just wondering, from the Snake standpoint.

it could be a moot question since they're a rare sight :x