please desticky and replace with new thread. link to new thread in OP if needed

This old puppy is gettin retired. It was a nice way to get the ball roll, but there are some things you just want to do right the first time, right?

New thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5117869

Everything past this line was excavated by archeologists searching for dinosaur remains:

(point of dinosaur extinction)__________________________________________________________________________-(point of dinosaur extinction)




The Type Chart Project is now being updated with an individual look at each character on a week-by-week (usually) basis! Entitled the Pokedex Entry Series, it's an in depth look at one character within a dedicated thread.

Want to see the reasoning behind these match ups? Here are the detailed discussions we have analyzed thus far:

1. Pokemon Trainer! The most complex ditto match EVER.
2. Metaknight...
3. Mr. Gay Men Watch!
4. Marth.
5. Snake
~Concept~

Basically, the idea came to me as I wondered which Pokemon was best to use against Pit. I'd searched and searched for a type chart similar to the ol type charts you find in the Pokemon games, but alas, there was none. So I decided to start one of my own! My hope is that this will be a basic guideline to use when trying to master Pokemon Trainer, a resource to all Trainers out there. One of the most important aspects to PT's character is the ability to switch Pokemon as the situation demands it, and this should serve to show which Pokemon is most effective against each character, so you can focus on using that Pokemon as much as possible!

So, the point is to determine which Pokemon have a natural advantage against other characters. But I'm no where near experienced enough with PT, nor have I fought every character enough to determine who to use against what opponent. THIS is where you all come in!

~How to Contribute~

To add to the chart, please state the character that you are going to cover, with reasons for what you think each Pokemon's ability is against said character. For example...

Ike
Squirtle: Neutral, he can pressure with aerials and combo Ike, but Ike's range and power can destroy Squirtle if you aren't careful. Squirtle's overall speed is effective against Ike's slow attacks.
Ivysaur: Super Effective/Plus/Green/etc, Razor Leaf spam can rack up damage as Ike lacks projectiles, Ivysaur also has terrific range on most of his attacks, so if Ike manages to get in your face, you can Fsmash or Jab with success, for example.
Charizard: Not very effective, Ike can juggle Charizard and his massive size, and outprioritizes a lot of Charizard's attacks. Charizard can short hop a Rock Smash or Flamethrower, but Ike can Smash you if you go in with a SH Fair. Ike can basically deal much more damage quicker than Charizard can, which is what Charizard prides itself in.

ps, this is my actual opinion, so I'd appreciate comments from those of you with vs. Ike experience before I add this to the chart!

On that note, I'd like a few peer reviews and discussion when someone decides to analyze before I add it to the chart. Nothing like constructive criticism and more than one opinion!

Want to see the reasoning behind these matchups? Click here for the majority of them:
[URL="http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4304229&postcount=113"]
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4304229&postcount=113

So, with that, commence the analysis!

3/21 - Thread posted, that chart looks so bare and...white. Let's change that. :]

3/23 - First update! Pikachu, Zelda, Ganondorf, Pit, Ike, and R.O.B.

3/30 - Second update! Ness, Wario, Pokemon Trainer, Dedede, Olimar, Toon Link, and Sonic.

4/5 - Third update! Kirby, Fox, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Bowser, Falco, Game and Watch, Diddy, Lucas, Lucario, and Wolf.

4/8 - Fourth update! Snake, Samus, Zamus, Metaknight, Sheik, Marth, DK, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, and Mario. Olimar and Game and Watch edited.

4/13 - Fifth update! Just editing a few people, I think...but I forgot to update this so not sure who it was!

4/28 - Sixth update! Ice Climbers, Link, and Peach. Edited Charizard's Olimar, Charizard's Wolf, Ivysaur and Charizard's Sonic.

5/13 - Seventh update. Edited Charizard's and Squirtle's Olimar.

6/25 - Eighth update. It's been a while my friends, but we are now recharged! Began Character in Focus and edited Pokemon Trainer, and now have major/slight differentiation in advantages.

7/1 - Updated with Pokedex Entry 2: Metaknight.

7/7 - Updated with Pokedex Entries 3 and 4: Game and Watch and Marth.

All characters have some sort of entry, but some of these need revisions, so help out with any insight you have!

Wow, this is a good idea - too bad I don't really have anything to add to it. I may want to cover Pit in the future. :]

I agree with your breakdown of Ike vs. the pokemon, and it seems rather solid. Also, the concept is really great. I have a few suggestions as well, but don't take them as truth, since I wouldn't call myself the best player.

Pikachu:
Squirtle: I have problems, since Pika can spam his N-Bs, is too small to effectively aerial spam, and can just as easily evade my aerial spam as I can dish it out. It's a tough fight for Squirtle.
Ivysaur: I feel like Ivy has a slight disadvantage, but will do much better than squirtle in this matchup. Her Razor Leaves get canceled by Pika's more spammable lightning, and she can be chain grabbed. Despite all this, keeping your spacing up will be effective, so I think neutral is fair.
Charizard: I've had a hard time with pika as Char, but after I looked at some of my mistakes, I think that the matchup is in Charizard's favor. Using flamethrower for single jumped edgeguards builds up a lot of damage, and Zard's huge grab range makes it easy to shield and grab to punish aerials and the like. I'd give Charizard a green.

Zelda:
Squirtle: I played a pretty decent amount of matches vs. Zelda, and feel that Squirtle's speed just completely counters Zelda's slow magic. Air dodging her fireballs, and faking her out with shellshifts will open her to easy punishment. Grabbing into Squirtle's aerials is surefire ****.
Ivysaur: Ivy has great range, and decent defensive play as well. Spamming Razor leaf at the right time will really screw up Zelda's rhythm, and it's really easy to coax into a punishment. Her fall from above is really easy to predict, and she doesn't have much to change that. Bullet seed or Up-air/smash will dominate her.
Charizard: Charizard is big. He's huge. Shielding will sometimes result in being hit by her fireballs, just because he's so big, and his shield has open spots on his head/back (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how it has seemed to me.) It's really easy to get chain fireballed if you mistime even 1 fireball, and her up-smash can really cause trouble when you're above her. Try and use Zard's awesome grab range to do some damage, but it seems like a bad match up to me.

*more to come later*

Seeing that I'm an Ike and PT main, I believe Squirtle and Ivy are the way to go. Squirtle is a serious in-and-out character that Ike can't really keep up with. Just jump in and out with aerials without getting hit, but don't' expect to finish the job quickly without having to edge guard or something. Water Gun stops Quick draw to a good extent. Ike's recovery is pretty gimpable. Believe me.

As far as Ivy is concerned, just be defensive and shield-grab the balls off of him. Stay on the ground like you should and go for the Fsmash (or uair as usual), which will be quick enough to kill.

Charizard is okay to use, but I wouldn't even bother unless you plan on gaying him off the stage with Fairs.

Sorry. Double post.

By the way, thank you so much for this! I was waiting for somebody to start a PT matchup thread.

this is an awesome idea. my bro plays ROB all the time, so ill attempt to cover match-ups for him.

Squirtle: super effective. alot of rob's game is in his airs, and squirtle outspeeds/maneuvers him in the air for the most part. rob can be juggled farily easily with squirtles u-tilt.

Ivysaur: neutral. his aerial game is quite a bit slower than squirtle's, giving rob a much better chance to dominate in the air. ivysaur's razor leaf isnt particularly effective as rob has projectiles of his own. ivysaur can take down rob, but its not the easiest matchup

Charizard: not very effective. once again it kinda comes down to the air game. with robs ability to hover so well most of the game will be in the air anyway. unlike ivysaur and squirtle, rob really outclasses charizard in the air. fair is really the only effective air move here, and a good rob can use a quick hover over this and dair spike charizard.

this is of course just an opinion. i dont claim to be a PT expert, and my brother certainly isnt an expert as ROB either. skill wise we match up pretty evenly though.

Love this idea... Here is a tough one that i did today.

vs Marth
First off.. this match is hella tough just on its own.

Squirtle: I want to give this one a neutral because they are both speedy characters and can dish out damage and have trouble killing. Keep bobbing and weaving with squirtle and don't become predictable. No clear advantage here.. all based on skill.

Ivysaur: Personally, ivy is my fav. I can dish damage and kill pretty effectively... but with this matchup.. you are at a disadvantage IMO. Sure you can spam the Razor Leaf.. but if Marth gets within range... good luck. Marth had more speed on the ground and the air. Once your in the air... get back down as fast as possible cuz the juggling gets ridiculous.

Charizard: for some reason, i seem to have the most luck with charizard. He's a tank and can take a ton of damage before getting killed.. and he can dish it out really fast as well. You can gimp Marth fast off the level with Fair... but Charizard is also a huge target and can get abused. Jabs, tilts, and grabs are your friend. Final decision. Neutral- no advantage either way. Some may argue disadvantage.. but i stick with neutral.

This thread streches my screen lol. Free bump.

great thread! ill make sure to pay extra attention to my matchups n see what i can add

Well for pit (for me)

Squirtle is very helpful with his aerial attacks. Kept Juggling my friend even in fatigue mode. He's good


For Ivy, i had a little tough time just connecting my smashes, but i pulled through He's neutral

For zard... the arrow spamming at long distances and when you get close a quick across b and then a few smashes sent this guy flying. He's pretty bad

For the Ike in the first post... i agree with everything except the Charizard being not very effective... i would put charizard at neutral against Ike... both big slow heavy hitters. Everything said about Ike juggling is correct... but i can get Charizard to do the same thing with jabs, tilts and grabs.


Completely agree with the pikachu and zelda match ups described.

Haven't played a Rob so no opinion there

And the Pit description is DEAD ON.. i play a spammy pit and that is exactly what happens... Squirtle is totally super effective, Ivy is neutral, and Charizard has a lot of trouble.

I think that these are good and can be displayed on the top pic

Excellent work. If i could suggest something you should allow for a bigger range for the matchup chart key. Simply because the spectrum is too short.

Advantage, Neutral, Disadvantage.

should be

Huge Advantage, Advantage, Slight Advantage, Neutral, Slight Disadvantage, Disadvantage, Huge Disadvantage.

and if you want to go a step further and copy phannas matchup chart which i'm too lazy to find.

Chaotic said:

Excellent work. If i could suggest something you should allow for a bigger range for the matchup chart key. Simply because the spectrum is too short.

Advantage, Neutral, Disadvantage.

should be

Huge Advantage, Advantage, Slight Advantage, Neutral, Slight Disadvantage, Disadvantage, Huge Disadvantage.

Click to expand...

This is a good idea, but getting anything done would take ages. I think it'd be best to stick with
Advantage, Neutral, Disadvantage
for the time being, and then we can argue over the finer details.

I though it was supposed to be like old school pkmn games, get it?

VS. Ganondorf

Squirtle can WoP, throw out jabs, and generally get great combos off on Ganond. Recovery is very easily gimped by proper edgeguarding too. Ganondorf has a slight range advantage and kills early, but with careful spacing, I don't see how Ganondorf can really get a solid hit ever. I'd say this is Neutral - Super.

Ivysaur just destroys. Razor leaf spam, bullet seed rams Ganon in the ***, Ganon can't get through the Bairs, Ftilt shrugs off pretty much every approach if you don't use Bair for that job. Easy to land the finishing moves on. Definitely Super effective.

Charizard is a bit more even with Ganondorf. However, jabs, down tilts, short hopped nairs, etc. do a good job at keep away. Rock Smash is easy to land. Flamethrower eats him slightly less than bullet seed does. Be careful, however, as it doesn't seem like Zard can effectively juggle Ganon because of Down Air and Down B having a load of priority. Off the edge, Zard shares a commonality with Squirtle in that Ganondorf is just dead so long as you don't screw up. You can even get Dairs off on him.


Also, the guy is footstool spike fodder.

Hmm... I shall gather data when I play my friends tomorrow.

Thank you all for your contributions thus far, but we still have a long way to go!

I've added almost all the suggestions without change except Ike and Pikachu. Ike because someone suggested Charizard as a neutral, which was alright with me. Charizard has good range and is a deal bit quicker than Ike.

The second was Pikachu. I changed Squirtle to neutral and Ivysaur to not very effective. The reason being that Squirtle and Pikachu both play similar styles with quick aerial barrages coming from small, aerially quick characters.

I changed Ivysaur because his Razor Leaves are useless against Pikachu's quicker Thundershocks, and Ivysaur cannot contend with Pikachu in the air. In addition, both Pika's fsmash and dsmash have nice range to them, so Pika can contend on the ground.

BUT, as with ALL suggestions, it is still open for discussion. If you disagree, please speak up! It is possible that one of us made a mistake.

And with that, I await more character analysis! We have barely started, but this thing could become a great resource for Trainers everywhere!

Squirtle vs. Squirtle

Totally even, it's all about who plays the better game.

Ivysaur vs. Ivysaur

Same as above

Charizard vs. Charizard

Same again


Squirtle vs. Ivysaur

This is an interesting one. It's is generally difficult for Squirtle to get near Ivysaur because of Razor Leaf, Bair, etc. However, once Squirtle is in close quarters it starts slapping Ivy around with the typical combo ability and doesn't generally get shield grabbed. Ivy has better flat out KO ability, but Squirtle ***** an Ivysaur off the edge. I've really seen this go both ways. Neutral.

Squirtle vs. Charizard

Fun again. Zard is good at protecting itself with those massive hitboxes, great durability, and early KOs. Squirtle, on the other hand, racks very easily like against any other heavyweight. When it comes time for Squirt to kill, Usmash is brilliant because of Zard's apparent water weak. If fatigue sets in, however, Squirtle begins to have a hard time. Probably also neutral, all things considered.


Ivysaur vs. Charizard

Ivysaur wins on the ground, Charizard wins in the air. Take that for what you will.



I dunno, it just seems to me that in all my experience with the PT ditto, it's all about who plays the matchups better.

I have a suggestion for Olimar.

Squirtle: Not very effective.

Squirtle not good/!?!/! :O. But really, I find squirtle's aerial game gets dominated by most fast characters that have DISJOINTED HITBOXES (Olimar's pikmin slapping fairs and the like). The reason this doesn't apply to Ike is because he is too slow, but for Olimar, you had better work your butt off to get those aerials to connect before he slaps you with a red, yellow, or purple Pikmin. Though Olimar's forward+B is almost ineffective due to Squirtle's size, his aerial game is limited and his short attack range is dominated by Olimar's exceptional smash range. (As a side note, if you DO get forward+B pikmin latched onto you, use your own forward + B (withdraw) to get rid of em).

Ivysaur: Very effective.

Ivysaur has razor leaf, the only projectile you will get on PT. Now, this is not much use against the pikmin themselves, but it will hamper Olimar as he doesn't have too much to get through razor leaf with. Your leaf will cut pikmin if they are in midair while being launched at you, and ivysaur is still pretty short. You can match Olimar's range on the ground with Fsmash and even ftilt to a certain extent, and you still have razor leaf. Your shieldgrab range isn't going to work against a spaced Olimar, however. In the air, the range you get with fair and bair, as well as the disjointed hitboxes of uair and dair allow you to handle Olimar as he comes at you, as well as kill pikmin even if your hits don't connect. Overall, Ivy can space pretty well against Olimar and hold his ground.

Charizard: Very effective.

One thing to watch out for: You are going to be the slower character. The reason Charizard can be very effective is because of dtilt and ftilt. You can match Olimar's range using these two attacks, as well as flamethrower (which can decimate pikmin ). Rock smash is a pretty safe move here, and the leftover chunks can kill pikmin as well. Dsmash is a pretty fast smash that will kill pikmin and Olimar. You can face up to Olimar's fair with your own fair, but it does not work quite as well. Rock smash may be the better, though slower, choice for aerial encounters face to face. Overall, Charizard can kill pikmin , really leaving Olimar with leaf pikmin rather than flower pikmin, and keeping him from pulling all purples since you're going to be killing some of them

BUMP FOR THE SAKE THAT THIS WILL BE COMPLETED N IT DESERVES BETTER THAN TO BE ON 2nd PAGE
IT SHOULD BE STICKIED UPON COMPLETION!!!!

this will help with PT users ALOT n create less threads of "problems with ______"

Ness:

Squirtle: Super effective: Them both have great aerial games and a medium ground game. But squirtle's Water Gun can make Ness' PKT2 backfire.

Ivysaur: Neutral.: Both are good ranged, ivysaur's got a better ground game, but Ness has got his aerials. Ness juggles Ivysaur pretty well, but Ivysaur is one of the best anti-airs. Ivy's razor leaf can't be absorbed, but can be reflected.

Charizard: Not very effective: Big, easily juggled, easily absorbed, Ness' PK Thunders can cancel every single glide, glide is predictable, so PK Flash!

Olimar:
I fought for first time a good campy olimar yesterday and this was what i notcied.

Squirtle: Disadvantage.
Definitely the less efective of the 3. His range is too small to beat a campy olimar. Not to mention that Olimar smashes allof em hurt a lot and has wide range. Like someone said before, what hurts the most is the aerial slap. Ull find urself working A LOT to hit him, and he will hit you wirth ease and built up much more damage than you. But all is not lost. If u really wanna use squirt, there is one tactic that totally pwns olimar, and is WATERGUN. Olimar gets gimped by water gun so easily that is insane. If by luck, you are able to put him out of the stage, always always have a water gun charged and blast it right in his face. Sometimes Olimar will try to throw piks at you, and will be a little careless with his pikkin rope. The watergun can be the difference in space he needed to get back.
I wouls suggest using squrlte just when Olimar is in high %, since squirts aerials have good knockback, and his downthrow is very nice, u can set up a water gun trap... if not, is not worth the effort-.


Charizard: Neutral
Well, this battle is not easy. Olimar can rag up damage like crazy, and when h gets you airborne, you will be in some trouble as u become a very big flying pinhata. Rry to stay ground as much as you can. If he starts spamming piks, burn them to his death and take a close eye on how much piks he has left. There will be one moment when he will have to recharge or move,, use that moment to get close and land more Fters. If you get in range try to use ur down or forwward tilts. Sometimes aerial rok smashes will protect you when advancing to him.

Ivysaur: Neutral.
Not an easy task either. To try to get to him, you can try to spam war against him with ur leaves, but be sure that ull lose in the damage department, some of his pikmins will hit you and get much much more damage. Why i do this? because some of ur leaves will hit him too, creating an opportunity to continue approaching. U can try to get to him with an aerial leaf, and then f smash... or this other tactic:
I have noticed that when u are at medium range of him, the forward tilt almost totally nullifies his pikmins and also the last bit of the animation sometimes tend to hit olimar, creating that much needed flinch animation u want. If u are carefull, spam this in his face and then force him to move or change tactics, from there u must find a way to predict his moves and attack. The con of this tactic is his grab range, u must be predicting when u think he will grab you instead of throwing another pikmin, which is not easy, but the pros are better than the cons. Is a very nice way to break his pikmin camping. If he gets u airborne try to land a bak air just to flinch him, escape right away and reorganize urself.
Dont do mindless aerial approaches because ull pay dearly.
When he gets you out of the stage, tryto lure him out with a leaf, and if all is lost, my last tip will be to aim carefully the UP B and surprise him. I have killed a lot of edgehoggers because of this,. They think that u are done when they are hoged. In fact u are done but u have ur last card. Use ur sweetspotted uPB to take them down with you. But it must be sweetspotted. Its too much fun to see them dying in early % because of being stage spiked.

-----GANONDORF-----


Squirtle: Slight Advantage
Squirtle IMO, has the upper hand in this fight, but not by much. What you can do with squirt , is to beat him in speed, going in and out of his range, baiting him and attack. Ganon will most likely get campy because he cannot beat squirts speed, and here is when u must be a little more cautious. He seems to be a big, slow dumb guy... but squirt CANNOT endure ganons attacks. Ganon doesnt need much to kill squirt, so be carefull here when u face a campy one. Anyways, quick in and out aerials, mixed up with grabs and water gun will do the trick.

Ivysaur: Super effective
Razor leaf is ur friend. Camp, camp and camp more that ganon... grounded leaves, aerial leaves, retreating leaves, thow all kind of leaves to him, h will have a hard time dealing with them. Base all ur strategies by luring him to attack you. Try to make ganon do hasty approaches and punish them. Always keep a distance and a close eye in ganons down B, if im not mistaken, razor leaf can stop his trayectory, but anwyays keep a save distance. Ur finisher will most likely be the forward smash. Dthrow to fair works good against him, if he DIs wrongly, but i would not suggest using Uair because of that dreaded thunder drop of ganon. In short, u can keep him at distance with ivysaur and get good damage.

Charizard: slight advantage
Both are big, both are slow(well ganon is the epitome of slowness XD) and both hit hard. But charizard has the PhiRe!!!. Really, Flame thower is crucial against ganon. With his lack of good air game, and speed, flamethrower will be like his bane, specially on corners. He will have a hard time getting back to stage without sucking up a big deal of damage before he gest the edge, or even worse, get gymped by the stage corners!. Also, charizard has a good recovery which can be mixed up to prevent getting killed. Ganons has more killing options than charizard but he has to work so much for them to kick in, while charizard can rack up damage fast (since ganon is s big) and charizard also can kill!. I enjoy this fight a lot. Just as always, dont get hitted in high %, or ull die. Beware of his up air and Forward B.




BTW, this thread is a very good idea, one of the best i have seen in character discussion.

First of all; AWESOME JOB! This is a great P. Trainer project, I cannot wait to see it complete. Although it will take a very long time, so do not be hasty. Take your time with these things. I'll also add the completed version to my stickied guide, credited to you and this thread of course.



Vs. Dedede

Squirtle - Advantage
Cannot be Chaingrabbed! (**very important**)
U-Tilt/U-Air can Combo Dedede from 0 to atleast 70%
Waddle Dee's fly over Squirtle if he is Crawling
Squirtle totally annihilates Dedede's airgame (except for his B-Air)
Squirtle can put insane offensive pressure on Dedede.

Ivysaur - Neutral
Can be Chaingrabbed, but because of Ivysaur's range, should not be.
Razor Leaf goes through any Waddle Dee spam
Ivysaur completely out-ranges Dedede
Bullet Seed makes for hard-to-DI because Dedede is so huge
Dedede can still get some hits in with his F-Tilt and U-Tilt

Charizard - Disadvantage
Can be Chaingrabbed
Has a difficult time on the offensive, because of Charizards slow speed it usually results in a Shield Grab which then goes into a Chain Grab
Waddle Dee Spam forces Charizard to Approach
Dedede outranges Charizard in some aspects
Dedede also outprioritizes Charizards Aerial game.

Im down...

Sonic!

Squirtle - Neutral, Squirtles really the only one who can come close to keeping up with sonic. Squirtle can deliver some decent hits and shell shifting really helps because sonice doesnt exactly have range with his attacks. However his forward smash will **** you. Why? Cause agility pawns withdraw (yeah i said it) dont ya know.

Ivysaur - Ugly...yea you can play keep away with razor leaf but I wouldnt recomend this one. Which is a shame because ivy's my fav *sigh*

Charizard - OH BABY! Noooow were cooking. I give charizard the super effective one on this match. Charizard ***** sonic. You'd think because of sonics speed and charizards lumberingness (is that a word...?) it would be the other way around but trust me. Flamethrower stops the speed demon in his tracks and rocksmash halts/ko's any approach he's got on ya. Charizard destroys sonic in the air with his fair and nair and tilts (preferably down tilt) are the ideal edgeguard. Just play a patient charizard. Sonic isnt tough enough to dent ol chari even if he does land a hit. I stayed alive till I was up to 190 somthing. Not a hard matchup at all. Oh and best of all when sonic trys comboing using his upb spring deally....take it to em! Hop on that shiz and burninate!!

for those who say charizard isnt super effetive with ike I disagree. We are both slow and strong charizard has some speed. I won againstl ike numorous times. That goes with any heavy hitter charizard can hold its just a slower match for both people. Like the post above me paitent it hwo to play it with charizard.

Also sonic with Ivy isnt so bad, Sonic players just so the patient game i think applies to this as well.

Squirlte is a nuetral jsut a bunch of running around and jumping =P

I would say also squirtly is nuteral to toon link.


However, i play a heavy ivy and charizard game so that should be taken into consideration. I think polling would help this because there are many different way to play with pt .

For The Pokemon Trainer

Squirtle
---------

Squirtle: Nothing to say since they are exactly the same

Ivysaur: Ahhh i love ivysaur. she has mad aerial defense skills on our little friend squirtle. she needs to stay away from squirtle by spamming her razor leaves. When squirtle does come to close, bullet seed, or D throw followed by a up air. And another factor, squirtle dies by an u smash at 36% Super effective

Charizard: Ugh. Charizard can't really hit that blue ninja because of how much that guys likes the air. We think of Charizard as a tank for most of the time correct? He is supposed to deal a lot of damage and usually KO someone right? Well Charizard Can't really hit squirtle, if he can't hit squirtle, he must have a tough time killing squirtle, he gets juggled by squirtle, and lastly, Squirtle that hydroplans kills around 70% on charizard. Not Very Effective

Ivysaur
---------

Squirtle: Man. I was once fighting an ivysaur. i was at 90% and she was at 80% Last life. I go in the air and i got SS on ivysaur's up B. that really ticked me off. Another kill she got on me was cleverly getting me off the stage at 42%, and getting a U smash on me.... Squirtle really can't do anything against ivysaur...

Ivysaur: They are the same it's Neutral

Charizard: Yes! zard has a lot of power in him. I basically Rock smash get a Down throw and then hang on the ledge and ivysaur is gone. Ivysaur can't kill as fast with her U attacks because of Zard's resistance to leaf attacks. The only positive effects for ivysaur here is that, charizard stays in the bullet seed long, and that is all. Charizard is Super effective

Charizard
-----------

Squirtle: Charizard can't really hit that blue ninja because of how much that guys likes the air. We think of Charizard as a tank for most of the time correct? He is supposed to deal a lot of damage and usually KO someone right? Well Charizard Can't really hit squirtle, if he can't hit squirtle, he must have a tough time killing squirtle, he gets juggled by squirtle, and lastly, Squirtle that hydroplans kills around 70% on charizard, yes that is very dangerous hehe SUper effective.

Ivysaur: zard has a lot of power in him. they can basically Rock smash get a Down throw and then hang on the ledge and ivysaur is gone. Ivysaur can't kill as fast with her U attacks because of Zard's resistance to leaf attacks. The only positive effects for ivysaur here is that, charizard stays in the bullet seed long, and that is all. Not effective
Charizard: THey are the same

Hydde said:

Olimar:
I fought for first time a good campy olimar yesterday and this was what i notcied.


Charizard: Neutral
Well, this battle is not easy. Olimar can rag up damage like crazy, and when h gets you airborne, you will be in some trouble as u become a very big flying pinhata. Rry to stay ground as much as you can. If he starts spamming piks, burn them to his death and take a close eye on how much piks he has left. There will be one moment when he will have to recharge or move,, use that moment to get close and land more Fters. If you get in range try to use ur down or forwward tilts. Sometimes aerial rok smashes will protect you when advancing to him.

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Nope, Olimar is WAY weak aganist charizard... BURN THOSE PIKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

maskeXD said:

Nope, Olimar is WAY weak aganist charizard... BURN THOSE PIKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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you mean rock smash?

Lol at Charizard only having one good matchup.

NOT AMUSED.

But he like murders sonic! Im tellin ya yo'z! Diz be da facts of life!

Seriously though...charizard burns things

Hmm my opinions have change Fighting skilled ike players, how are you judgeing this? becuas depending on who your fighting the odds are so different. I can beat a decent ik ebut a great ike i have trouble with so im at a loss at how you can compare.

Fearmy said:

you mean rock smash?

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No, flamethrower.

Lol at Charizard only having one good matchup.

NOT AMUSED.

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Charizard KILLS Ike, marth, snake, G&W, wolf, DK, mario, luigi, yoshi...

Leahdybug said:

Hmm my opinions have change Fighting skilled ike players, how are you judgeing this? becuas depending on who your fighting the odds are so different. I can beat a decent ik ebut a great ike i have trouble with so im at a loss at how you can compare.

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But also by that logic it depends on who is using the PK as well. I have seen people who play all 3 Pokemon like they do Squirte (short hop spam) witch isn't a smart thing to do. That said this chart should be a general guide, not law. This early in the game there is no "one way" to play any character.

The thread creator really needs to update this based on the info coming in. I assume we're going to use the wisdom on the masses, and go with whatever the larger public says?

My two cents:

Wario is absolutely wrecked by Squirtle, as you're faster, have almost as much aerial control, and great ways to wreck his amazing recovery. SUPER EFFECTIVE!

Ivysaur can use his Razor Leaf and grabs to keep him away, but his aerials wreck you when they start hitting. Even match.

Charizard... well Wario's just too mobile for Charizard to handle. You also lack the aerial prowress to keep up. Combine the fact that Wario is a fat ******* with a great recovery, your power doesn't have the same meaning. Not very effective...

alright, update on the way! was without an internet connection for most of the past week. lots of new info, which is AWESOME. and i'm really glad that card posted, i'd be honored to have this in your thread.

edit: there were some conflicting opinions on olimar, i erred with Hydde's analysis. most agree that squirtle is a red, but ivysaur and charizard range from neutral to super effective. ivysaur is okay, but you are OUTRANGED by olimar, and range is usually what ivysaur prides itself in. however, you still have razor leaves at your disposal. so i think this is neutral.

charizard is a favorite because he can kill pikmin with both ft and rocks but olimar can completely WRECK you in the air. and that's how you are going to be approaching olimar most of the time, so if a good olimar decides to go on the offensive, i think you are in trouble. neutral imo, all things considered.

but if you do disagree (and i know a few of you do), feel free to explain...but REALLY explain. perhaps we need a good handful of judgments to settle it?

not sure on the ivy vs squirtle debate, i got one neutral and one in ivy's favor. i'll go with ivy for now, but if you disagree, feel free to explain!

Steeler36 from Nintendo NSider! said:

alright, update on the way! was without an internet connection for most of the past week. lots of new info, which is AWESOME. and i'm really glad that card posted, i'd be honored to have this in your thread.

edit: there were some conflicting opinions on olimar, i erred with Hydde's analysis. most agree that squirtle is a red, but ivysaur and charizard range from neutral to super effective. ivysaur is okay, but you are OUTRANGED by olimar, and range is usually what ivysaur prides itself in. however, you still have razor leaves at your disposal. so i think this is neutral.

charizard is a favorite because he can kill pikmin with both ft and rocks but olimar can completely WRECK you in the air. and that's how you are going to be approaching olimar most of the time, so if a good olimar decides to go on the offensive, i think you are in trouble. neutral imo, all things considered.

but if you do disagree (and i know a few of you do), feel free to explain...but REALLY explain. perhaps we need a good handful of judgments to settle it?

not sure on the ivy vs squirtle debate, i got one neutral and one in ivy's favor. i'll go with ivy for now, but if you disagree, feel free to explain!

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I say Zard is Super Effective, just simply dodge his attacks in air if possible (I don't play that many good olimars) Seriously Rock Smashing That ****** in the face feels nice and flamethrower to def against the pikmin.

Ivy, well she needs to worry about range and red pikmin, but she can easily spam Razor leaves and kill the pikmin. I don't know really, but Zard is Super Effective


Okay For jiggles i think it goes like this (I don't play any pro jiggles, just lvl 9)

Squirtle- Well this is Neutral. Jiggles has probably more power than squirtle in the air. Probably because of the fact of her having multi jumps and being extremely floaty. Jiggles also has better smashes than squirt (They come out faster) but if you are smart, you can take down jiggles by getting your air attacks on her and D-Throwing Her

Ivysaur- Probably Super Effective. Jiggles shines mainly in her Air attacks, but since ivy is pretty much AA, Boom, and since she is the lightest character, i bet you could kill her at 50%

Charizard- Hmmm i think this is neutral as well. Just avoid her air attacks and you can easily F smash her and she goes flying. Rocks smash is extremely powerful in everyway against her and of course, there is Flamethrower

maskeXD said:

No, flamethrower.



Charizard KILLS Ike, marth, snake, G&W, wolf, DK, mario, luigi, yoshi...

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He kills everyone.

EVAR.

Fearmy said:

you mean rock Halo?

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HAHAHAHAHA!

APRIL FOOL!!!!!!!!