So...none items user....cant adapt?

DanteSmash7 · Mar 20, 2008

For starters I can play both none items and items. But I fancy items more cause it takes more skill. A lot of people are applying melee logic to freaking brawl it just doesn't carry over too well.

Not to mention it takes ten times more tactics when worrying about stage, fellow player, and the items. If a person grabs a item before you. Its because they are faster than you. Doesn't mean that person knows how to use that item. And the items are generated randomly, so you have no clue what your gonna get. Could be a huge freaking bomb to the face or a heart. (Unless you tampered with the item settings.)

Overall, players need to step out of their comfort zone esp if they which to improve. I haven't fought anyone I cant handle in item battle and a none item battle. Mostly that is due to the fact of all the dodging that it forces you to use. Then I simply apply that to a none item battle and **** away. Kinda, disappointing that people need their handicap and even with it, they loose.

(Besides, how bad *** is it when you own someone after they just got a heart or a tomato)

True skill.

LouisLeGros · Mar 20, 2008

More random factors that favor fast characters...
certainly sounds like some real skill too me

chunkysoupy · Mar 20, 2008

Troll bait.

If you're serious, the usual reply is that items DO take skill. No one denies that. It's just the element of randomness that needs to be removed.

6footninja · Mar 20, 2008

Yeah I agree with chunkysoupy, its just the variable of Random encountering.

DanteSmash7 · Mar 20, 2008

A skilled player can adapt to that randomness. Thats the point am making. Yet you see way too many players no using items and wondering why they are getting ***** in none item battles. I think its too funny.

Justice7541 · Mar 20, 2008

Arguments can be made for items. Unfortunately, this isn't one of them. No, "being badass" is not an acceptable reason.

It's like saying Rock-Paper-Scissors requires skill. Rather, it's like getting the crap beaten out of you in a boxing match and having the referee throw a baseball bat into the center of the ring ten seconds before the bell.

LouisLeGros · Mar 20, 2008

DanteSmash7 said:
A skilled player can adapt to that randomness. Thats the point am making. Yet you see way too many players no using items and wondering why they are getting ***** in none item battles. I think its too funny.

how is a skilled player going to react to a super hammer that spawns directly infront of his opponent when they both are at 1 stock a piece?

If one player gets like 4 smash balls in a match then not even Ken would really be able to stop them from winning.

I'm done with this ridiculous troll bait though

Fugue · Mar 20, 2008

Er, no, I don't. From what I've seen they tend to do just as well in item battles. The only difference is that every once in a while a Bob-omb will spawn in midair while executing a Smash attack or some such tomfoolerifity and result in an unavoidable impossible-to-predict suicide KO. Sometimes it happens to the other players too (much more often, because they tend to get hit by plenty of avoidable ones too), but that doesn't make it any more fair, it just makes it more silly.

DanteSmash7 · Mar 20, 2008

Getting a player who just fully healed and knocking em out. That is skill, Justice7541. And I consider it to be pretty badass . Thats the personal part but beating someone stock after they are fully healed isnt easy. Esp if your excuse is, "errr there is a bat in the middle of the stage, but rather go for it, am gonna ***** about"

I think its a matter of adapting, its sad that not too many players leave their comfort zone. It limits their overall skill.

If you let someone get four smash balls....maybe the handicap is meant for you....

Thats, really sad... :dizzy:

Xengri · Mar 20, 2008

DanteSmash7 said:
For starters I can play both none items and items.

So can everyone else. Most of us just rather not have random events in our matches.

DanteSmash7 said:
But I fancy items more cause it takes more skill.

It takes skill, I wouldn't say more skill though.

DanteSmash7 said:
A lot of people are applying melee logic to freaking brawl it just doesn't carry over too well.

Items are random in both games and work the exact same way (except smash balls, but that's another story.)

DanteSmash7 said:
Not to mention it takes ten times more tactics when worrying about stage, fellow player, and the items. If a person grabs a item before you. Its because they are faster than you.

Or, maybe it's cause the item spawned closer to them since, you know, it's random. Besides, do we really want to encourage faster character dominance anyway?
As for the stage thing, how can my skill help me when the stage does a 180, and, I miss my edgeguard opportunity?

DanteSmash7 said:
Doesn't mean that person knows how to use that item. And the items are generated randomly, so you have no clue what your gonna get. Could be a huge freaking bomb to the face or a heart. (Unless you tampered with the item settings.)

See, that's the why most of us don't like items. Some people just don't like random things in competition.

DanteSmash7 said:
Overall, players need to step out of their comfort zone esp if they which to improve. I haven't fought anyone I cant handle in item battle and a none item battle. Mostly that is due to the fact of all the dodging that it forces you to use. Then I simply apply that to a none item battle and **** away. Kinda, disappointing that people need their handicap and even with it, they loose.

(Besides, how bad *** is it when you own someone after they just got a heart or a tomato)

True skill.

That's your opinion, no one's stopping you from playing with items. In fact there's a group of people just like you, that want to start a league with item matches and more stages (I'm to lazy to find the link but, it's somewhere). Go to them instead of pushing your way of playing on us.

Did we really need another thread for this?

Justice7541 · Mar 20, 2008

LouisLeGros said:
how is a skilled player going to react to a super hammer that spawns directly infront of his opponent when they both are at 1 stock a piece?

If one player gets like 4 smash balls in a match then not even Ken would really be able to stop them from winning.

I'm done with this ridiculous troll bait though

You can pretty much smell the troll just from the way he types. He reasons like a ten-year old, if that.

DanteSmash7 · Mar 20, 2008

Xen, am just saying. If players want to get better overall, Items is the way to go. That is why the random factors keeps you on edge. Now in regards to a item spawning on them, that does happen. But if your excuse is that, out of best 2 out of 3. It's you, not the system.

Fugue · Mar 20, 2008

Best of three games? What, did they not slow Brawl down enough for you already?

DanteSmash7 · Mar 20, 2008

Best two out of 3?

Like, if you win one and your opponent wins one. Guess what happens? You fight one more time 2 break tie....
Pretty simple really.

Xengri · Mar 20, 2008

DanteSmash7 said:
Xen, am just saying. If players want to get better overall, Items is the way to go. That is why the random factors keeps you on edge. Now in regards to a item spawning on them, that does happen. But if your excuse is that, out of best 2 out of 3. It's you, not the system.

Feel free thing think that Items make a player better. No one can stop you from believing that.
If you want to play with items go for it, but, people that don't want to play with them don't have to.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147012
^
If you want to find more people to play items with, go with these guys. That way, you don't have to deal with non-item users if you don't want to.

Thread over?

SFJake · Mar 20, 2008

DanteSmash7 said:
A skilled player can adapt to that randomness. Thats the point am making. Yet you see way too many players no using items and wondering why they are getting ***** in none item battles. I think its too funny.

AND YOU DON'T GET THAT RANDOMNESS IS NOT WELCOMED IN COMPETITION.

NOT Because people can't adapt to it, NOT because they don't want to use it at all. COMPETITION is there to show what skill truly is and even give away PRICES for it, REAL FREAKIN' MONEY. And your kind don't give a crap that RANDOMNESS can just ruin the point here?

YES, people can adapt to randomness and use it to their advantages, BUT RANDOM IS RANDOM, and it can give advantages to some people WITHOUT THEM DESERVING IT OR DOING NOTHING FOR IT.

Understand this, shut up, and leave. We've had enough, FAR enough of these topics. I am NOT a competitive player, I purely play for fun, and I'm pissed, tired of that kind of comment and topic.

Justice7541 · Mar 20, 2008

In case you hadn't noticed, most developers typically balance characters based on personal traits (without exterior influences on playstyle) then add in the extras. Items are extras, so are fancy stages. This is why both need to be banned; Metaknight, Sonic, Sheik, etc. who have high damage output but bad KO moves are balanced in that while they rack up high damage levels, that's only because they can't KO at low levels.

I almost always win with Sheik 1v1 with items, simply because I can just get them to 80+% (not that hard with Sheik's increased comboability) then just chuck an item into their face and KO instantly. Incidentally, I always get the good items first, because, you know, I'm faster.

Troll thread has been pwnt.

DTKPch · Mar 20, 2008

DanteSmash7 said:
Getting a player who just fully healed and knocking em out. That is skill, Justice7541. And I consider it to be pretty badass .

Basically your saying that items cause the winner to have even more of a skill gap over the loser, and that winning while your opponent gets a bunch of items shows that you have skill.

You're completely ignoring the flip-side of the argument, though. Beating your opponents face once you have a golden hammer (that spawned right in front of you, of course) requires zero skill. You're only considering the fact that beating your opponent even after he got a golden hammer shows that you have skill.

Also, Ken beating some noob even when the noob gets a bunch of smashballs shows his skill, yes. However, if Ken JV-4 stocks that noob, it is just as impressive.

Sariku · Mar 20, 2008

No one said that items doesn't take skill to use. Items just aren't fair in a competitive scene.

Say you are playing a match for a couple hundred dollars. You are in control for most of the match, and are about to lay the finishing blow. But by a stroke of luck, a Bob-Omb falls from the sky and connects with your Forward Smash. Is that fair? If you was winning the entire match, but you lose at the end because of a random element? Sure, it can happen to either player, but neither player would enjoy it nonetheless.

That's where us competitive players look when we talk about this matter. Yes, items take a lot of skill to use (Well, in Melee. In Brawl you can catch and negate items by accident...), but it isn't always fair in a competitive match.

Do you understand now?

shadydentist · Mar 20, 2008

This is a poor argument. You shouldn't EVER need to overcome an advantage that you're opponent didn't earn. Sure, a player who is much more skilled will still win out almost all the time. That's not the issue here. The problem is that a player who is only a little bit better will suffer the most from the randomness of items.

The_1337 · Mar 20, 2008

ah yes, a true skilled player will adapt when a hammer drops beside their opponent.

DanteSmash7 · Mar 20, 2008

Just wondering why none item users are so scared to battle with them. Thats why I made the thread. And while you bring up some "okay" points Xen. Its not a matter of opinion its, fact.

1. Adapting overall gameplay (Some chars have the ability to produce items, peach, king deedeedee, are you gonna bit.ch each time that happens?)

2. It forces you to dodge more because you have incoming items at you, and evade more as well.

3. It brings a balance to the game. (Some chars have several projectiles, if a player spams them on idk, lets say marth. Marth/Ike players are done for)

Let me know what you think Xen, you seem to want to JOIN THE ITEM SIDE. Muahaha!?

-And if a hammer drops.... idk about you guys but I knock it out of them. Which is more possible now. Oh and the option to run? No? Maybe so? Tactics people...

-In regards to not earning. They earned it by getting the item. Doesn't mean they are gonna use it correctly.

DTKPch · Mar 20, 2008

Oh, and about adapting to that randomness...

On very high, items spawn about once every 8 seconds (correct? I think?) Whatever. For the sake of argument, let's just assume they do. Now assume that every other 8 seconds, a heart container falls right next to your opponent. You have 16 seconds to KO the other guy. Otherwise, they heal and you're right back to square one. In the middle 8 second periods, bom-ombs fall right where you're about to attack. So the fight goes like this

Explosion in your face -> opponent has 0% -> another explosion in your face -> opponent has 0% again -> third explosion in your face, most likely causing you to die -> you respawn, and your opponent has 0%.

Now, through all of this, you are actually the better player. Yet, after a short period of time, you find yourself down by a whole stock, and your opponent doesn't even have damage yet.

Adapt to that, why don't ya?

P.S. WHY DO THESE THREADS EVEN EXIST ANYWAY!?!?!?!?!?!?

Justice7541 · Mar 20, 2008

DanteSmash7 said:
3. It brings a balance to the game. (Some chars have several projectiles, if a player spams them on idk, lets say marth. Marth/Ike players are done for)

I stopped reading here. Unfortunately, it was pretty much near the end of the post.

Regardless, you fail to understand that in a fighter, Balance is Law. Get this through your head before posting again.

One more time:

BALANCE IS LAW.

LAW.

Fugue · Mar 20, 2008

Lol, Marth is useless without items? When did this happen?

DanteSmash7 · Mar 20, 2008

DTKPch said:
Oh, and about adapting to that randomness...

On very high, items spawn about once every 8 seconds (correct? I think?) Whatever. For the sake of argument, let's just assume they do. Now assume that every other 8 seconds, a heart container falls right next to your opponent. You have 16 seconds to KO the other guy. Otherwise, they heal and you're right back to square one. In the middle 8 second periods, bom-ombs fall right where you're about to attack. So the fight goes like this

Explosion in your face -> opponent has 0% -> another explosion in your face -> opponent has 0% again -> third explosion in your face, most likely causing you to die -> you respawn, and your opponent has 0%.

Now, through all of this, you are actually the better player. Yet, after a short period of time, you find yourself down by a whole stock, and your opponent doesn't even have damage yet.

Adapt to that, why don't ya?

P.S. WHY DO THESE THREADS EVEN EXIST ANYWAY!?!?!?!?!?!?

Thats why you don't put item spawn at very high. Keep it at its default, mid. But I think what your talking about is the feeling of someone stealing victory due to the random factor. You can use the items too. I dont see why this would be too hard oh and like not to sound like a dil.do. But the ability to grab items mid flight is much, much easier now as well.

Its more about tactics, then about random factor causing too much of a imbalance. I see what you mean though.

-Fugue

Never said marth was useless. Read, said if a player spams them. It tides the battle towards them. For example link vs marth. Bombs, arrows, Rang. You get the idea no? Items bring a balance in this worst case senario because they can throw something as well or use a item.

Icarus Descent · Mar 20, 2008

I play with items on all the time,and have never played Smash without them. It really dosn't bother me at all honestly,they add more depth to the game. And they even make it more fun. Pople don't enjoy playing with items just because it gives you easy kiils.

But as quoted from Wolf: "What's wrong...scared"
Don't be afraid to use items,people.

Firebert · Mar 20, 2008

Fugue said:
Lol, Marth is useless without items? When did this happen?

I'm not sure, I didn't get the memo. =P
In all seriousness, I won't deny that using items can incorporate extra kinds of applications of skill. The only problem is the randomness factor. Items, tide-turning items included, can appear ANYWHERE. If it appears on the opposite side of the map, even a skilled player will have a rough time getting to it before the enemy, especially if they are using a slower character. This is why items are not generally accepted in big tournaments.

DanteSmash7 · Mar 20, 2008

Icarus Descent said:
I play with items on all the time,and have never played Smash without them. It really dosn't bother me at all honestly,they add more depth to the game. And they even make it more fun. Pople don't enjoy playing with items just because it gives you easy kiils.

But as quoted from Wolf: "What's,wrong...scared"
Don't be afraid to use items,people.

Nice, that was well put. Quoting wolf and what not gave me goosebumps. Yeah, Def more tactical. In a 4 FFA, Its more about it being hectic than anything else. Time matches, going for more kills. Stock matches, agenda to stay alive the longest.

So adapting isn't too hard. Once you do, it makes you feel sooooo good. But to each his own.

-Firebert

Yeah but we do agree it does require more skill. Like I said, well typed anyway. If a item lands on the "enemies lap". Could of been a bomb, or a heart. Managing to deal with the situation and finding ways around it makes you even better.

Worst case scenario, gets a heart. More incentive to come at em hard while not trying to get hit. All about tactics. I see what your concern is. Its what every none item user, concern is. However, if I fight a none item user, and i can rock both none items and items. I assure you, I have a higher % of success, more evading and dodging because of having to do so in item matches.

Klowne · Mar 20, 2008

DanteSmash7 said:
Thats why you don't put item spawn at very high. Keep it at its default, mid. But I think what your talking about is the feeling of someone stealing victory due to the random factor. You can use the items too. I dont see why this would be too hard oh and like not to sound like a dil.do. But the ability to grab items mid flight is much, much easier now as well.

Its more about tactics, then about random factor causing too much of a imbalance. I see what you mean though.

-Fugue

Never said marth was useless. Read, said if a player spams them. It tides the battle towards them. For example link vs marth. Bombs, arrows, Rang. You get the idea no? Items bring a balance in this worst case senario because they can throw something as well or use a item.

There is no "Tactic" or "adaptation" to when a game-breaking item spawns in front of one of person. You lose the stock and that's that.

Klowne · Mar 20, 2008

DanteSmash7 said:
Nice, that was well put. Quoting wolf and what not gave me goosebumps. Yeah, Def more tactical. In a 4 FFA, Its more about it being hectic than anything else. Time matches, going for more kills. Stock matches, agenda to stay alive the longest.

So adapting isn't too hard. Once you do, it makes you feel sooooo good. But to each his own.

Want to try explicitly explaining to us how to "Adapt" to a bomb spawning on top of you on your last stock?

J0K3R · Mar 20, 2008

Klowne said:
Want to try explicitly explaining to us how to "Adapt" to a bomb spawning on top of you on your last stock?

Better have fast reflexes xD

SenorPresidente · Mar 20, 2008

Two players of very close skill level. Both down to one stock. Both around 100 damage. One players does a smash attack and a bomb appears. There is no adapting. There is nothing the player can due. The better player didn't win the match the player that got lucky did. This beats the whole point of competition.

Items were on for many years no one woke up one morning and said "lol lets ban items" the community decided for the better to ban them.

DanteSmash7 · Mar 20, 2008

J0K3R said:
Better have fast reflexes xD

Bingo, how do you get those reflexes? Well, apparently the nightmare that became manifest to none item users. Having to do item battles. It helps with dodges and evades in the air or not in the air.

-SenorPresidente

Skill is still involved in that scenario. If the enemy lobs the bomb at you, you can grab it mid flight. Or dodge it (via rolling) or evade it. And when that player misses and thought for 100% he/she had you. There is your opening.

Icarus Descent · Mar 20, 2008

Klowne said:
Want to try explicitly explaining to us how to "Adapt" to a bomb spawning on top of you on your last stock?

Maybe I'm not getting this,but if an item falls on you does it automactially open or whatever. All I'm hearing is "if a bomb falls on you in a whatever match you die". Man this type of stuff dosn't even happen for real so stop saying this,I mean honestly stop trying to down the fact that itms are fun. Don't make me use another quote.

Frey · Mar 20, 2008

Time to add my 2 cents in, I main dedede and I hate his item spawning move when am item comes. It ends up either
A: Throwing a smash ball which if anyone plays any fast guys= me not getting it which= *** ****(try dodging a good landmaster)
B: throws an abuseable item.

Items on would basically take off a good amount of the roster due to slowness, Dedede actually has a chance with no items. Turn them on and even his faster moves would suck in a 1v1. I play with items on friendly matches, and can say its the fast ones who win, and its not by skill but luck.

You try chasing a sonic with an obese penguin.

DanteSmash7 · Mar 20, 2008

Icarus Descent said:
Maybe I'm not getting this,but if an item falls on you does it automactially open or whatever. All I'm hearing is "if a bomb falls on you in a whatever match you die". Man this type of stuff dosn't even happen for real so stop saying this,I mean honestly stop trying to down the fact that itms are fun. Don't make me use another quote.

Haha, I know, they (none item users) corner to this worst case scenario that apparently "happens all the time". Like I said if thats the case, it isn't the system. Its you (the player). Practice makes perfect.

-Frey

If you happen to throw a smash ball, many tactics you can use. Esp since you are a power house. Mind you a fox needs to hit "it" way more times than you. One good hit from you and you have the smash ball. Plus you can always knock it out of them. Item Battles have helped me tons in regards to mastering how to evade supers.

Yes, thats right even the landmaster. :chuckle:

mista_mista · Mar 20, 2008

Just give it up. It does not take skill to pick up a 1-hit KO item. Whoever is the faster character to reach the item first wins. You make it sound like the tourney-goers don't know how to dodge items, and the fact is that they will still destroy you with items on or off.

I don't give a crap how you play, but don't come here and tell us how to play.

Terrorcon Blot · Mar 20, 2008

You know, unrelated, but there's some things I just don't like hearing over and over in these threads.

- Apparently, Bob-Ombs spawn ALL the time, and always IN YOUR FACE. That's impressive.
- Hammers are some how unstoppable instant win buttons, despite the fact that your foe can't do anything except flail the hammer and jump a single time.

Frey · Mar 20, 2008

DanteSmash7 said:
Haha, I know, they (none item users) corner to this worst case scenario that apparently "happens all the time". Like I said if thats the case, it isn't the system. Its you (the player). Practice makes perfect.

Yeah about that, it does happen often, which is why I hate timed multiman so much, I wouldnt mind fans and saturns, and others but no godly power ones.

So...none items user....cant adapt?

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