Olimar Stage Counterpicks: Discussion on Olimar's Best and Worst Stage Match-ups

Florida · Mar 18, 2008

This thread is to discuss the best and worst stage match-ups for Olimar, as mentioned in the thread title. There have been some threads such as this before, but they're all either unorganized, or specified on certain stages solely. In this thread, bring about intelligent discussion on which stages Olimar plays on best and worst. When discussing this topic, please refrain from focusing on stage hazards that affect every character. Try to focus on characteristics that relate to Olimar specifically. Here are my personal thoughts on the matter (note that not all 42 stages are included in this list; most "banned" stages have been avoided, as well as some stages that I personally have no experience with):

b e s t s t a g e s

Lylat Cruise: Medium-small stage with three low platforms. Edges can be grabbed from and angle underneath the stage. Stage has low ceiling and width is short. Low platforms allow variety in moveset such as utilt, uair, usmash, fair, dair, bair, and more.

Battlefield: Olimar plays very well on stages that are small and simple. The basic platforms add variety in use of moves when the opponent is placed above, such as utilt, uthrow, uair, usmash etcetera. Battlefield's edges allow Olimar to grab them from below and underneath the stage.

Norfair: All platforms have ledges which can be grabbed. Lava prevents easy gimping against Olimar. Red pikmin being plucked gives Olimar the advantage over specific characters (Bowser, Charizard, Captain Falcon, Toon Link, Link, etcetera). Grab range matches length of platforms.

Yoshi's Island: Simple stage and decently small. Single yet wide platform provides variation in moveset use and can also protect Olimar for plucking at occasions. Low ceiling; makes K.O.ing with usmash and other general attacks easier. Support Ghost improves/saves Olimar's recovery, either if intentionally by the player, or unintentionally.

Smashville: Small and basic stage. Edges can be reached from an angle underneath the stage. Moving platform allows an improved recovery, and adds some protection when plucking pikmin (pluck while moving away from the opponent). Platform allows variety in moveset.

n e u t r a l s t a g e s

Final Destination: Flat and basic. Great for Olimar strategies which include side-b spam, and a simple approach for offensive and defensive play-styles. Arched edges can cause major gimping issues, and at most times self-destructs (suicides, self-K.O.s, etcetera).

Pirate Ship: Water provides swimming, and less-easy-gimping. Water causes all pikmin except blue to drown and die, which can leave any Olimar player in a tight situation. Platforms add variety in moveset.

Battleship Halberd: Starting hangar gives Olimar a chance to a quick kill before take-off, which during this time, no gimping can take effect (though there are some cheap maneuvers that can be attempted to side-screen K.O. with, such as King Dedede's chaingrab). Central platform has edges which can be grabbed, and a decently low ceiling. Halberd's landing spot provides a platform, and an elongated surface.

Frigate Orpheon: Simple stage layout and a decently-low ceiling. Certain edges are disabled for grabbing, which can leave Olimar in a dangerous situation. Moving platform, at the same time, can improve/save Olimar's recovery.

w o r s t s t a g e s

Castle Siege: First area's edges have arches similar to Final Destination's, which can cause severe gimping and self-destructs. Second area's platforms are very high, not giving Olimar much variety in up-related attacks (usmash, uair, etcetera.). Third area has edges that can prove to be difficult to grab.

Delfino Plaza: Landing spots can prove to be difficult for Olimar (certain ones that contain water, for example--which only creates a major problem with the pillars landing-area--although some areas with water can help Olimar in regards to his easily-gimped recovery). Central platform allows easy gimping against Olimar.

Jungle Japes (Melee): Rapid waters can easily kill Olimar. Edges are low and leave Olimar hanging right above the water. If Olimar survives the river and escapes, all of your pikmin except for blue will have probably died, leaving yourself open for your opponent to attack.

Sky World: Once platforms are broken, there are no edges which can be grabbed. This leaves a huge impact on Olimar's recovery, which is already one of the most easily gimped recoveries in the game. Low platforms cause extreme bouncing when hit against, which at most times send characters flying downward. Olimar can use uair to go through the platforms, and reach the opponents.

keeper · Mar 18, 2008

I would say Norfair is one of Olimar's better stages, through my experiences. Seeing as he can't be edgehogged and he can out range most players there.

TrueRedemption · Mar 19, 2008

I suggest you get a drink and some popcorn folks, this has a good likelihood of going epic length.

First, in general, stage size, as well as KO walls are kind of a play style preference. Until, if ever, a "Best" Olimar play style emerges, the best we can do as far as stage discussion is apply it to the different play styles we have now, which is more helpful in some ways anyway cause I'm sure some people may not care what the best play style is and just go with their own, however if those people don't care about best way to play but do care about stage picks thats sorta mixed messages... So anyway, thats just a long disclaimer saying none of this is set in stone, i'll try and mention different play styles pros or cons while working through stages in general.

*NOTE ON KO WALLS* First off, egruntz, probably to no ones surprise, did a fairly good job with his picks. He brought up a good point about ceiling height, something that would be awesome to have data on would be backed up standardized KO boundaries, especially ceiling for all Olimars who recognize and use USmash and UAir, which well, to be honest, if an Olimar isn't using those, they have plenty more to learn before stage is gonna matter much. Also though something I've recently been making a lot better use of, back throw with a blue pikmin is absolutely brutal, so things like walk off stages and even just normal Side KO walls are nice to be aware of as well. I unfortunately don't have this data, but if it comes in or in a while when i actually do have time to take a good look at it, this will play an important role.

*NOTE ON SPACE* Olimar has range, no matter how you break it down, and its a great strength. However to effectively use range, you have to have even more space, so that they can be outside your range, which is also outside their range, and so anytime they want to attack you they must cross your range, which with timing is space you are able to control. Example: A vast majority of attacks are out ranged by Olimars grab. That means, baring aerials, that for any opponent to hit with that move, given space between the two of you, they must first be able to be grabbed before they can possibly hit you. In theory, how could you lose, you can hit them and interrupt whatever they were trying to do before they ever had a chance to do it! Granted, its more complicated than that, but if you were never beaten by a mind game, and had timing to hit the lag of every roll or dodge, thats what it would come down to, regardless of it being no longer human. Moral of the story, spacing allows you to have the chance at least of defeating an opponent without being touched. If your cramped most of the game, thats less time your opponent will be outside of your range having to move into it to hit you. This is not making full use of one of Olimar's primary advantages, which is basically in every way just a bad thing. Also note that this reference of space is about usable space. For instance New Pork City is huge, tons of "space", but really not great space at all, because its all on different platforms and broken up. Due to game mechanics like jumping through platforms and hanging on ledges, these small isolated spaces are effectively islands, and should be considered in some ways a tiny stage of its own when both players are on one, at least for the discussion of using Olimar's range on moves like the Smashes and Tilts. A closing thought on all important space, is positioning. Different than spacing, which is the distance between you and your opponent, positioning is where you are relative to the stage, most importantly the KO walls and gaps capable to die in. Obviously you should always be aware of these, survive longer than the opponent and you've won, in typical stock anyway. Especially important for olimar, due to a limited recovery, if you can have good spacing, and also be in the middle of the map far from gaps and KO walls, life is good.

*NOTE ABOUT ANTI CAMPING* Pikmin are the only projectile (other than a thrown lipstik, but i'm assuming no items) that deals Damage over Time, despite it being able to be canceled. This detail however puts your opponent into a situation, whether to continue spamming and take the damage, or to do something about the agitated vegetable head butting whatever part you managed to throw it on to. If they do decide to just take the damage, thats not a bad thing, Most Of The Time. Unlike other projectiles, Pikmin do noticeably less damage as opponents begin reaching KO percents, I'd say in general 75% and above. At this point they are only doing 3 hits really, so anything but a white doesn't do all that much good. Don't get me wrong, its better than nothing, but at this point you should be starting looking for the KO, UNLESS you are still at a higher percent than your opponent, and you are able to effectively play the camper game better than them, so that your actually bringing your opponents percent up closer to your own. If however your at a lower percent, at this point Olimar's risk/reward for camping starts really sinking, and that usually ends up with you losing some of the advantage you had created by out projectile-ing your opponent, as you may increase their damage some but you'll also take some more of theirs, which is hitting at a constant damage while your damage is dropping. This is all assuming your opponent is also not dumb enough that they are actually not doing any damage to you at all and only sitting there taking damage. So, learn how to Anti camp, which in reality means learning 2 things. First, how to avoid their projectiles while hitting with your own (in general, i'm content if i'm doing 10 damage for every 2 i take personally) but secondly you also need to learn how to approach a projectile spammer, by spot dodges rolling well timed jumps aerials whatever works best for you against your current opponent. The second, interestingly, can be very easily transitioned into from the first by a point brought up above. If your opponent diligently removes the pikmin to avoid much of the damage, they are by doing so almost always providing you a gap in their own projectile game. This gap may or may not be much, but learning to see and furthermore use these windows is a major element to effectively Anti Camping.

So, while the list so far is not bad, my own first change is move Final Destination up to a Best. This has obvious drawbacks, such as this stage leaves Olimar much more vulnerable to projectile spamming, as there are no platforms to stand on removing you from the base "floor" of the stage dominated by lasers or electric jolts or turnips or whatever. However, with practice and time put in playing Olimar, effectively dealing with camping/turtling opponents will come. The upside is more space, for easier positioning as well as its a lot easier to run away and reset when you find yourself in a situation where your spacing has turned into a bad situation. I believe all the KO walls are considerably far out there, something that certainly isn't a plus for Olimar with a sub par recovery, however the shear size of this map means that with good positioning Olimar can live to equally high percents, something not to hard to do thanks to the large space avaliable here. As an added bonus, you'll be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees with playing on this stage, its basically universally accepted.

Some comments about other top stages:
Battlefield: I agree is a solid choice for many of the reasons listed. Don't get caught up a platform with your opponent below you, but be sure to catch your opponent on one while you're on the ground as often as possible. Also if you really have trouble with spammed projectiles, you can just jump up to the opposite platform, making you much harder to hit, and will certainly invoke action from your opponent, usually them coming to you in some way, but even if its only jumping up to their side platform to spam, its creating a window for you to safely approach. Two unmentioned drawbacks however are that your own projectile game becomes limited, pikmin don't fall through platforms. You can however mix things up by using latch from a platform, but overall this can be a slightly bigger con than pro. Also the stage isn't very big if you take an honest look at it.

Yoshi's Island: Very solid stage, platform is great to get your opponent stuck up there, which only makes the low ceiling seem even more so. Side KO walls aren't too far out there either, back throw isn't a great option here but a good one. The combination of the random saving platform and close side ko walls, really only helps Olimar. Players with better recoveries have that advantage wasted, they are either KOed by the wall, or they have a more than good enough recovery to make it back, no need for the random platform. Still smaller space wise than FD, but better than Battlefield. Only wish it had slightly better music, but hey, can't win em all...

Smashville: If you like small stages, then the description egruntz gives is pretty solid here. However I've already made my point about space, more of it usually doesn't help. Smashville is just small enough to never be able to really get away and reset, which can be good for keeping pressure on an opponent, but means its also easier to keep pressure on Olimar. Due to Olimar's range advantage, I'd rather have each player be able to reset more easily and rely on / play to Olimar's range advantage to win more encounters than not. Also worth noting is while not proven one way or another, its been noticed by a few players that there seems to be a slightly increased amount of purple pikmin plucked on this stage. Once tested, if found true, it could change the opinion on this stage in whichever direction increased purple pikmin would mean to the current meta game.

Other Best Stages.
Lylat Cruise: Apart from a personal bias towards the stage, this is a strong choice for Olimar for reasons listed above. Its not quite as small as battlefield, those platforms love to be USmashed through to hit an opponent, and just in general open up options. The slight angle on each end is double edged. If your on the center part fighting outward (good positioning) its an added strength, you will get full range while your opponents in general will be a tad shortened. Also its worth noting they are easy markers for knowing exactly where to sweet spot the edge for some tough ledge guarding. However the flip side you lose a lot of range and options when your on the outside, not to mention its never good for Olimar to be fighting his back to the wall like that. However it does make somewhat interesting height effects for an aerial, a quick SH FAir is just different enough that it could catch an opponent off guard, or at least allow you to get to the platforms and effectively change up the situation.

Shadow Moses Island: Its not my favorite map by any means, and will very possibly be considered for ban or banned due to the walls and things they allow, however despite all this, Olimar's incredible ability to send opponents straight up shine here. Two words can significantly increase any Olimar's chance on this stage; Stay Bottom. UAir USmash UTilt are all great moves, not that a lot of Olimars aren't great, but the ability to control the bottom and hit opponents nearly straight up means your killing them at somewhat normal percentages, where as most characters have to work Olimar up to ridiculous numbers (150% - 200%) before being able to kill him, especially with good DI and the ability to wall tech. Only two details here, you need to have good timing with DAir, and be generally good at getting back to the bottom if someone is under you. The other is obviously this all goes out the window if the walls are down, so don't just let your opponent tear down the walls if you can stop him, pick up on it if thats what they are trying to do, and then do whatever it takes to prevent it while staying below them.

So its getting late, I'm getting tired, and have some stuff that must get done. Consider this only partially done. Stay tuned for more, heres a sneak peak: Delfino Plaza, the ultimate olimar counterpick? Frigate Orpheon: Close but no large parasitic queen bug. And Castle Seige, where not only opponent and pikmin order should influence your play style mid game.

-True

WiseWarrior · Mar 19, 2008

Very good post there. I'll offer my opinion too, as it's no fun otherwise.

First of all, your strategies really helped. When I played in a tourney match on Castle Seige against a slighly better than average player, I had a terrible time, barely winning by 1 stock. That stage is a real pain to play, while I can beat great players on stages like Smashville. So choosing your stages right is a good way to boost your winning percentage.

I've also learned to change my style according to the stage. Pirate Ship, one of my favorite course, can be fatal to Olimar if he falls in the water. However the basic layout is good, and give him an advantage. I learned to center my attacks in the corners, but when I start to play on the defensive I move over to the center so attacks won't knock me off. But I don't move off when the switch on the left is gonna go off, because then when my opponent goes to attack me, he gets KOed lol.

Rhyme · Mar 19, 2008

Thing is that you also don't want too much space. If your opponent always feels pressured by your range then they'll be more likely to try and close distance, which in effect is making them approach you. If there's enough room for your opponent to safely manuver without having to worry about an Usmash/Fsmash/upB then they can choose when to approach, and giving them that option to wait you out only makes your own job more difficult. I like a stage the size of Battlefield because you can always keep your opponent on his/her toes.

Something else to consider: if you never have to be in a position to upB recover then that makes your job easier. Consider Battlefield again. Its horizontal blast zones are of average size. On a stage like this, if hit from the stage you would only need to use your upB to recover about 1 in every 15 times (the other times you'd be knocked too far and be dead). However, this means that your opponent will also die at lower percentages. Remember that although you would only need your upB to recover once in a live performance on Smashville, chances are you'll be using it more than that. In theory, your opponent will be dying at percents low enough where they don't need their upB to recover if they did happen to survive. If both players are fighting under the condition "You'll hardly ever need your upB to recover" then doesn't that make the fight sound more fair? While small blast zones aren't usually good for a 'lighter' character like Olimar, they also help level the playing field and so for that reason, I think the small blast zones are a good thing for Olimar.

Anything with a platform that you can Usmash through = love. End of story.

I'm gonna disagree with the previous assertions though, I think risking being gimped is better than climbing out of the water on Delfino Plaza with only two pikmin--when are you gonna get a chance to pull more? Next time you happen to get lucky with a Fair? Remember that now you can't afford to spam your opponent (who is likely to rush you at this point anyway) so your game will be seriously off for a long time. I'm thinking that any stage with water, particularly Delfino Plaza (as much as it is my favoritest stage of all time), is automatically not a good thing for Olimar.

I usually find that my best Olimar stage is Smashville...not sure why.

Ooh, and I'm one of the few who doesn't like FD. Back in Melee, when I'd go to tournaments I used to strike that stage. Lack of platforms equals a horrible match in my book.

One of the better Olimar stages I've seen so far: Luigi's Mansion. The platform spacing lends itself very well for Olimar's Uair/Fair/Dair with a full jump, he can Uair through the impassible platforms, rack up insane damage by upBing beneath those same platforms, and those pillars block every projectile I've seen used aside from Olimar's pikmin and Zelda's Din's Fire. The edges are just as tricky for your opponent as they are for you but that's about the only downside. Blue pikmin throws kill easily off the sides and Usmashes/Uairs kill fairly well off the top here (even from the middle row of stage platforms).

One of the worst I've seen: Rainbow Cruise. Once you get past the boat there's no ledges for you to grab when trying to manuver the stage or avoid gimps, and because it's moving and has lots of platforms, I've had far too many plucked pikmin straight-up fall, wasting the time I sacrificed plucking them. Overall just one of the absolute worst for him, I'm still trying to figure out what to do when fighting here.

On a final note, good stuff True. I'm not a fan of spacing in the same way that you are but you did put in quite the effort validating yourself and you made several good points.

MarthTrinity · Mar 19, 2008

While I can't quite match the length of the posts above, a stage that's terrible for Olimar is the F-Zero stage. Once the platform starts floating around, Olimar's recovery won't let him grab onto the edge so you're likely to be bouncing on the road until you build up enough damage to fly up.

eaglith · Mar 19, 2008

I would like to offer my opinion

I think that Final Destination is one of Olimar's best stages (as opposed to mediocre), because the mere fact that it allows Olimar to spam his SideB is great. final Destination's only downside is recovery, but I think that is a burden for every player, because many a time have my friends gotten stuck under that ledge. In other words, I would consider that ledge thing to be a stage fault, not an Olimar fault. See what I mean?

Also, if you use olimar, NEVER play Skyworld. If you play that stage, expect a butt kicking.

Zellsfalco · Mar 19, 2008

Nah, if anything, u should want to go to battlefield. low platforms are great for olimar as FD is easy camping for ur opponent :D

SKEET SHADY · Mar 19, 2008

IMO Olimar's worst stages are Rainbow Cruise, and Mute City. Who knows if they'll be legal in brawl, but they were in melee so I don't see them being banned in Brawl. I've been to two real tournaments so far, and both times people counterpicked to Mute City. Its a painnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

Trozz · Mar 19, 2008

Put Shadow Moses Island under his best stages.

The strategy is to keep the opponent above you. Olimar has sick up smashes and arials that knock the opponent upwards. Since he has good priority, huge range, and good speed, it's ridiculously hard to fight Olimar on this map. Some characters (like Lucas or Link) are practically useless in this match up.

SMI FTL

Gerbil · Mar 19, 2008

Port Town is an auto Worse Stage :/ The lack of proper edges automatically cause Olimar's uB recovery to fail....

That's just my two cents, I'll read everything later.

Ultimatum479 · Mar 19, 2008

I second the nomination of Lylat Cruise as a best stage. Final Destination is of course great, and we all know Skyworld sucks HORRIBLY.

I don't agree with Battlefield being a good stage, though. The platforms tend to block Pikmin more than anything while allowing other projectiles to go through. For example, try an Olimar v Pit battle on Battlefield and you will quickly regret your choice of stage.

TheBuzzSaw · Mar 19, 2008

"Any stage with Link on it..." =P

joeysmash · Mar 19, 2008

Buzz said:
"Any stage with Link on it..." =P

lol

anyway, good stages i think would be smashville and yoshi because they might be able to help olimars recovery at times, which is basically his only weakness. Shadow moses due to up kills.

Once we have more exact detail on stage parameters and such, we can make even more ideas.

Newtwarrior · Mar 19, 2008

Man people beat me to the punch, If I were to type a wall of text it just be repetitive..
Though, some stages are worst / better than others my top 3 for each goto

Best:
1) Shadow Moses Island
2) Smashville
3) Battlefield (though, I tend to play better on FD)

Worst:
1) Rainbow Cruise (You constantly move, and not alot of the edges are grabable)
2) Skyworld (Olimar has a major disadvantage with destructible terrain hindering smashes, and when their gone lack of edges, really gimps him.
3) Mute City/Port City - Flat out annoying, but sorta changes pace when your neutral for awhile.

Florida · Mar 19, 2008

TrueRedemption said:
*NOTE ON KO WALLS* First off, egruntz, probably to no ones surprise, did a fairly good job with his picks. He brought up a good point about ceiling height, something that would be awesome to have data on would be backed up standardized KO boundaries, especially ceiling for all Olimars who recognize and use USmash and UAir, which well, to be honest, if an Olimar isn't using those, they have plenty more to learn before stage is gonna matter much. Also though something I've recently been making a lot better use of, back throw with a blue pikmin is absolutely brutal, so things like walk off stages and even just normal Side KO walls are nice to be aware of as well. I unfortunately don't have this data, but if it comes in or in a while when i actually do have time to take a good look at it, this will play an important role.

Oh yeah. Blue pikmin throws, both back and forward, absolutely slaughter your opponent. Though the problem with some stages being that blue pikmin don't appear as much as some other colors (this is true--I've tested it many times; yellows appear most on lylat cruise, red appear most on castle siege underground, blue appear most on summit, etcetera). Throws with blue pikmin are a great way to kill, and selecting your stage to involve easy K.O.s this way isn't a bad thing.

*NOTE ON SPACE* Olimar has range, no matter how you break it down, and its a great strength. However to effectively use range, you have to have even more space, so that they can be outside your range, which is also outside their range, and so anytime they want to attack you they must cross your range, which with timing is space you are able to control. Example: A vast majority of attacks are out ranged by Olimars grab. That means, baring aerials, that for any opponent to hit with that move, given space between the two of you, they must first be able to be grabbed before they can possibly hit you. In theory, how could you lose, you can hit them and interrupt whatever they were trying to do before they ever had a chance to do it! Granted, its more complicated than that, but if you were never beaten by a mind game, and had timing to hit the lag of every roll or dodge, thats what it would come down to, regardless of it being no longer human. Moral of the story, spacing allows you to have the chance at least of defeating an opponent without being touched. If your cramped most of the game, thats less time your opponent will be outside of your range having to move into it to hit you. This is not making full use of one of Olimar's primary advantages, which is basically in every way just a bad thing. Also note that this reference of space is about usable space. For instance New Pork City is huge, tons of "space", but really not great space at all, because its all on different platforms and broken up. Due to game mechanics like jumping through platforms and hanging on ledges, these small isolated spaces are effectively islands, and should be considered in some ways a tiny stage of its own when both players are on one, at least for the discussion of using Olimar's range on moves like the Smashes and Tilts. A closing thought on all important space, is positioning. Different than spacing, which is the distance between you and your opponent, positioning is where you are relative to the stage, most importantly the KO walls and gaps capable to die in. Obviously you should always be aware of these, survive longer than the opponent and you've won, in typical stock anyway. Especially important for olimar, due to a limited recovery, if you can have good spacing, and also be in the middle of the map far from gaps and KO walls, life is good.

Since Olimar's greatest strength is range, there is no question about it that you should be able to put it to good use by selecting stages that compliment that strength. But what are those stages? In my mind, those stages would be such as Smashville, Final Destination, and possibly Yoshi's Island. So for a stage such as Battlefield, you're basically cramping and reducing Olimar's range possibilities? Am I getting out of what you're saying correctly?

For Battlefield, I feel like Olimar has a great advantage over this stage because of his range. Since his range is so massive, he can easily keep opponents off of the stage and attack them from great distances. When you have an awesome range of attacks, and little space for your opponent to run, you should definitely have the upper-hand.

*NOTE ABOUT ANTI CAMPING* Pikmin are the only projectile (other than a thrown lipstik, but i'm assuming no items) that deals Damage over Time, despite it being able to be canceled. This detail however puts your opponent into a situation, whether to continue spamming and take the damage, or to do something about the agitated vegetable head butting whatever part you managed to throw it on to. If they do decide to just take the damage, thats not a bad thing, Most Of The Time. Unlike other projectiles, Pikmin do noticeably less damage as opponents begin reaching KO percents, I'd say in general 75% and above. At this point they are only doing 3 hits really, so anything but a white doesn't do all that much good. Don't get me wrong, its better than nothing, but at this point you should be starting looking for the KO, UNLESS you are still at a higher percent than your opponent, and you are able to effectively play the camper game better than them, so that your actually bringing your opponents percent up closer to your own. If however your at a lower percent, at this point Olimar's risk/reward for camping starts really sinking, and that usually ends up with you losing some of the advantage you had created by out projectile-ing your opponent, as you may increase their damage some but you'll also take some more of theirs, which is hitting at a constant damage while your damage is dropping. This is all assuming your opponent is also not dumb enough that they are actually not doing any damage to you at all and only sitting there taking damage. So, learn how to Anti camp, which in reality means learning 2 things. First, how to avoid their projectiles while hitting with your own (in general, i'm content if i'm doing 10 damage for every 2 i take personally) but secondly you also need to learn how to approach a projectile spammer, by spot dodges rolling well timed jumps aerials whatever works best for you against your current opponent. The second, interestingly, can be very easily transitioned into from the first by a point brought up above. If your opponent diligently removes the pikmin to avoid much of the damage, they are by doing so almost always providing you a gap in their own projectile game. This gap may or may not be much, but learning to see and furthermore use these windows is a major element to effectively Anti Camping.

So, while the list so far is not bad, my own first change is move Final Destination up to a Best. This has obvious drawbacks, such as this stage leaves Olimar much more vulnerable to projectile spamming, as there are no platforms to stand on removing you from the base "floor" of the stage dominated by lasers or electric jolts or turnips or whatever. However, with practice and time put in playing Olimar, effectively dealing with camping/turtling opponents will come. The upside is more space, for easier positioning as well as its a lot easier to run away and reset when you find yourself in a situation where your spacing has turned into a bad situation. I believe all the KO walls are considerably far out there, something that certainly isn't a plus for Olimar with a sub par recovery, however the shear size of this map means that with good positioning Olimar can live to equally high percents, something not to hard to do thanks to the large space avaliable here. As an added bonus, you'll be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees with playing on this stage, its basically universally accepted.

Based on my own experience, Final Destination isn't one of the best stages for an Olimar to counterpick; although, it's not at all a bad stage to select either. My Olimar doesn't involve spamming side-b. Really, it doesn't. I focus more on hitting smash attacks, aerial attacks, and generally connecting combos to rack-up damage and deliver knockback. The main problem that I have with Final Destination is that it lacks platforms. Platforms are a huge deal to me, and I strongly believe that they are needed for a good Olimar stage counterpick.

Hitting with attacks such as usmash and utilt and uair and up-b are mostly harder on Final Destination than stages such as Battlefield since it is so flat. Mostly, when playing on Final Destination, I bring my opponents into the air by starting up a down or up throw, and from there I try my chance at getting some good hits off of them. Though, for the most part, fights on Final Destination mostly take place on the ground, and that's my biggest issue with it. Also, those edges are monstrous.

For play styles that involve side-b spam, even so it must be realized that Final Destination works better as a spam-opportune-moment for other characters (Wolf, Falco, etc.) than it does Olimar. What I want to narrow down with Olimar counterpicks, are the stages that are best mainly for only Olimar.

Some comments about other top stages:
Battlefield: I agree is a solid choice for many of the reasons listed. Don't get caught up a platform with your opponent below you, but be sure to catch your opponent on one while you're on the ground as often as possible. Also if you really have trouble with spammed projectiles, you can just jump up to the opposite platform, making you much harder to hit, and will certainly invoke action from your opponent, usually them coming to you in some way, but even if its only jumping up to their side platform to spam, its creating a window for you to safely approach. Two unmentioned drawbacks however are that your own projectile game becomes limited, pikmin don't fall through platforms. You can however mix things up by using latch from a platform, but overall this can be a slightly bigger con than pro. Also the stage isn't very big if you take an honest look at it.

Nope, Battlefield isn't big at all. Actually, it's one of the smallest stages in the game. The ceiling being medium-low is a good thing for characters that can easily star K.O., such as Olimar. Short screens/side K.O.s can both give and take away; for instance, it means that you can be killed at lower percentages than stages that have wide areas, but that also means that your recovery won't be all too big of an issue. There were many occasions where all I had to do was use my second jump to recover to the stage. There were also some cases where I was forced to use my up-b due to edgehogging, and landed back on the surface.

Platforms are great, the way I look at it. Although pikmin might not be able to fall through them, platforms still give Olimar a good advantage. His upward range is just too incredible. Usmashes and uair are great for killing. A good short-hop-fair could also do the job. Utilts and short-hop-nairs can set up some good combos, as well. Though maybe I placed Battlefield a little too high--that being the top of the list--I still think that it deserves its spot in the "best stages" category.

Yoshi's Island: Very solid stage, platform is great to get your opponent stuck up there, which only makes the low ceiling seem even more so. Side KO walls aren't too far out there either, back throw isn't a great option here but a good one. The combination of the random saving platform and close side ko walls, really only helps Olimar. Players with better recoveries have that advantage wasted, they are either KOed by the wall, or they have a more than good enough recovery to make it back, no need for the random platform. Still smaller space wise than FD, but better than Battlefield. Only wish it had slightly better music, but hey, can't win em all...

Correct with the Support Ghost; it really only does genuinely help Olimar's recovery. For other characters with insane/great recoveries, the Support Ghost really doesn't take effect. The fact that Olimar gains from the Support Ghost is one of the key reasons why Yoshi's Island is such a great stage for him.

And what are you talking about? "Yoshi's Story (Ending)" is one of the best songs in the soundtrack. ;o

Shadow Moses Island: Its not my favorite map by any means, and will very possibly be considered for ban or banned due to the walls and things they allow, however despite all this, Olimar's incredible ability to send opponents straight up shine here. Two words can significantly increase any Olimar's chance on this stage; Stay Bottom. UAir USmash UTilt are all great moves, not that a lot of Olimars aren't great, but the ability to control the bottom and hit opponents nearly straight up means your killing them at somewhat normal percentages, where as most characters have to work Olimar up to ridiculous numbers (150% - 200%) before being able to kill him, especially with good DI and the ability to wall tech. Only two details here, you need to have good timing with DAir, and be generally good at getting back to the bottom if someone is under you. The other is obviously this all goes out the window if the walls are down, so don't just let your opponent tear down the walls if you can stop him, pick up on it if thats what they are trying to do, and then do whatever it takes to prevent it while staying below them.

When playing Buzz on Shadow Moses Island, I too realized that this stage did good for Olimar. The walls--although destructable--disable K.O.s from below and the side, for the most part. Since Olimar is so great at star K.O.ing, this stage is surely one of the better for him. The platforms also add some nice game for aerials set-ups and combos. No arguments here!

Rhyme said:
Thing is that you also don't want too much space. If your opponent always feels pressured by your range then they'll be more likely to try and close distance, which in effect is making them approach you. If there's enough room for your opponent to safely manuver without having to worry about an Usmash/Fsmash/upB then they can choose when to approach, and giving them that option to wait you out only makes your own job more difficult. I like a stage the size of Battlefield because you can always keep your opponent on his/her toes.

Something else to consider: if you never have to be in a position to upB recover then that makes your job easier. Consider Battlefield again. Its horizontal blast zones are of average size. On a stage like this, if hit from the stage you would only need to use your upB to recover about 1 in every 15 times (the other times you'd be knocked too far and be dead). However, this means that your opponent will also die at lower percentages. Remember that although you would only need your upB to recover once in a live performance on Smashville, chances are you'll be using it more than that. In theory, your opponent will be dying at percents low enough where they don't need their upB to recover if they did happen to survive. If both players are fighting under the condition "You'll hardly ever need your upB to recover" then doesn't that make the fight sound more fair? While small blast zones aren't usually good for a 'lighter' character like Olimar, they also help level the playing field and so for that reason, I think the small blast zones are a good thing for Olimar.

Anything with a platform that you can Usmash through = love. End of story.

I couldn't agree more. However, it depends on your play style. As I've mentioned, I personally would prefer Battlefield over Final Destination. This isn't because it's "too boring" or anything like that, but because my style of play isn't complimented and supported by that stage. Players that spam/use their side-b more will tend to like Final Destination because it allows that strategy to be performed at ease. It's as TrueRedemption mentioned, that we'd first all have to decide and settle on a specific playing style before we can all accurately select the best stage counterpick for Olimar. Since that'll never happen, we'll just have to do our best to agree on a stage that is best for Olimar as a character and all different strategies that he may have.

I'm gonna disagree with the previous assertions though, I think risking being gimped is better than climbing out of the water on Delfino Plaza with only two pikmin--when are you gonna get a chance to pull more? Next time you happen to get lucky with a Fair? Remember that now you can't afford to spam your opponent (who is likely to rush you at this point anyway) so your game will be seriously off for a long time. I'm thinking that any stage with water, particularly Delfino Plaza (as much as it is my favoritest stage of all time), is automatically not a good thing for Olimar.

This reminds me when I was playing a WiFi match with BHLMRO. We were on Delfino Plaza, and were fighting in the area with the four pillars with water below. I was meteor smashed into one of the pits, and all but my one-two blue pikmin died. But that's not the worst part; I couldn't escape. My up-b was just too short, and I couldn't grab onto a ledge. I ended up being stuck down there until the platform took off, which obviously lead to my death.

Ooh, and I'm one of the few who doesn't like FD. Back in Melee, when I'd go to tournaments I used to strike that stage. Lack of platforms equals a horrible match in my book.

I actually enjoyed Final Destination in Melee. I was a Marth/Falco main, so the lack of platforms didn't bother me much. Also, the edges weren't gay back then. It's ironic though, in Melee I preferred Final Destination over Battlefield, but in Brawl it's the exact opposite. Really, it all depends on who you're playing as.

MarthTrinity said:
While I can't quite match the length of the posts above, a stage that's terrible for Olimar is the F-Zero stage. Once the platform starts floating around, Olimar's recovery won't let him grab onto the edge so you're likely to be bouncing on the road until you build up enough damage to fly up.

Gerbil said:
Port Town is an auto Worse Stage :/ The lack of proper edges automatically cause Olimar's uB recovery to fail....

That's just my two cents, I'll read everything later.

Port Town is a horrid stage to play on generally. Though I can clearly see how it is worse on Olimar than the rest of the characters. But, really, you won't have to worry about playing on that stage in tournaments. That stage will definitely be banned. Sky World, on the other hand, might be accepted by some tournament directors.

WiseWarrior said:
Very good post there. I'll offer my opinion too, as it's no fun otherwise. First of all, your strategies really helped. When I played in a tourney match on Castle Seige against a slighly better than average player, I had a terrible time, barely winning by 1 stock. That stage is a real pain to play, while I can beat great players on stages like Smashville. So choosing your stages right is a good way to boost your winning percentage.

I've also learned to change my style according to the stage. Pirate Ship, one of my favorite course, can be fatal to Olimar if he falls in the water. However the basic layout is good, and give him an advantage. I learned to center my attacks in the corners, but when I start to play on the defensive I move over to the center so attacks won't knock me off. But I don't move off when the switch on the left is gonna go off, because then when my opponent goes to attack me, he gets KOed lol.

That's great. Castle Siege is a difficult stage for me to play on as Olimar as well, thus the low placement. As for the Pirate Ship stage, I mostly try to avoid it mainly because of its general hazards that affect all characters (bombs, extra ships, rock, etcetera). But yeah, it can be a great stage if you know what you're doing.

eaglith said:
I would like to offer my opinion

I think that Final Destination is one of Olimar's best stages (as opposed to mediocre), because the mere fact that it allows Olimar to spam his SideB is great. final Destination's only downside is recovery, but I think that is a burden for every player, because many a time have my friends gotten stuck under that ledge. In other words, I would consider that ledge thing to be a stage fault, not an Olimar fault. See what I mean?

Also, if you use olimar, NEVER play Skyworld. If you play that stage, expect a butt kicking.

It's true that the edges of Final Destination aren't hazardess to solely Olimar, but there are some characters that can get around them rather easily. Those characters being Kirby, Metaknight, King Dedede, Fox, Falco, Wolf, and others. Characters such as Bowser and Olimar...well, they have it bad. And again, your style of play greatly affects how important and useful a certain stage is.

Ultimatum479 said:
I second the nomination of Lylat Cruise as a best stage. Final Destination is of course great, and we all know Skyworld sucks HORRIBLY.

I don't agree with Battlefield being a good stage, though. The platforms tend to block Pikmin more than anything while allowing other projectiles to go through. For example, try an Olimar v Pit battle on Battlefield and you will quickly regret your choice of stage.

When playing on Battlefield, I don't see the advantage as being Olimar's projectile use, but rather his incredible range for all directions. It's because of the platforms, as well as previously mentioned properties of the stage, that I love Battlefield so much. Lylat Cruise is great; lovin' those platforms.

Rhyme · Mar 20, 2008

egruntz said:
I couldn't agree more. However, it depends on your play style. As I've mentioned, I personally would prefer Battlefield over Final Destination. This isn't because it's "too boring" or anything like that, but because my style of play isn't complimented and supported by that stage. Players that spam/use their side-b more will tend to like Final Destination because it allows that strategy to be performed at ease. It's as TrueRedemption mentioned, that we'd first all have to decide and settle on a specific playing style before we can all accurately select the best stage counterpick for Olimar. Since that'll never happen, we'll just have to do our best to agree on a stage that is best for Olimar as a character and all different strategies that he may have.

This reminds me when I was playing a WiFi match with BHLMRO. We were on Delfino Plaza, and were fighting in the area with the four pillars with water below. I was meteor smashed into one of the pits, and all but my one-two blue pikmin died. But that's not the worst part; I couldn't escape. My up-b was just too short, and I couldn't grab onto a ledge. I ended up being stuck down there until the platform took off, which obviously lead to my death.

I actually enjoyed Final Destination in Melee. I was a Marth/Falco main, so the lack of platforms didn't bother me much. Also, the edges weren't gay back then. It's ironic though, in Melee I preferred Final Destination over Battlefield, but in Brawl it's the exact opposite. Really, it all depends on who you're playing as.

Heh, so "boring" wasn't the right word for me to use, then. In Melee I always did better on platform stages than I did on flat stages, so Battlefield was always a better choice than FD even with the edges the way they were. Platforms support my style of play as well. I'm sure it's a great thing to pick a character who does better with platforms to go along with a style of play that benefits from them as well.

That's a horrible way to go. It seems that Delfino Plaza has transformations which counter Olimar, particularly the pillar transformation.

Strange that you'd prefer FD as Marth. I had always found that Marth's game was better with platforms by a huge margin. Unless, of course, you were playing the spacies. Then it wasn't much of a difference either way.

Dr. Hyde · Mar 21, 2008

I pretty much have nothing to say other than the first post pretty much hits the nail on the head. But Green Greens, if legal, is probably one if not the best stage becuase of how close your opponent has to stay.

TrueRedemption · Mar 21, 2008

So here we go again.

First, Reactionary:

egruntz I wouldn't mind seeing some of your play style, same as i've said to so many people before. I don't doubt you can make good use of his non Latch moves, I certainly do, but I also make use of latch, basically I'm currently a very reactionary Olimar player, more doing what seems the right option at the time. Sure this seems basic, but at the moment i'm more learning how to deal with any given issue than particularly developing my own style for others to deal with. Some games I'm rolling back looking for space attempting to reset whenever I can, other times i'm chasing after hoping my not yet perfected but constant pressure is enough, occasionally pulling something pretty off like that clip in the video thread. So take my opinion as a sorta general overview more than anything. My one word of warning against Battlefield is just as you can keep your opponent off the stage, by running back an forth generally hitting them far enough to play a type of ledge guard game, the same applies against you. A number of times i've found myself attempting to re-establish myself on the level but being hit across the level to find myself on the ledge once again, simply facing the other direction. Obviously this applies both ways, and with olimar's stage you in theory could have the upper hand at this tennis esque game of ledge guarding, however Olimar's weak recovery would also hint at a distinct disadvantage. Personally, give me a bigger stage where i can reset momentum, and have more individual opportunities to exert my range advantage, rather than simply use it to help maintain your map control. If you are able to recover without running into the issues of being bounced all over the stage, more power to you I can see your reasoning behind BF before the others.

Thanks Rhyme, I really enjoy your points of view too and i feel were on the same page a lot of the time.

So, at least for the promised, if not more rantings just on stage. (someday, i'm just gonna right a huge olimar "impressions" or something i think, not to rival Echo's guide, just my thoughts on... everything.)

Delfino Plaza: If you've been a diligent lurker you'll have heard me say this before, so here it comes again. I see Delfino Plaza as the first choice counter pick to Olimar so far, assuming most obviously harsh maps are banned from play. Here comes the reasoning. First off, the lack of tether recoverable ledges in general make this stage interesting at times. When you aren't dealing with a lack of ledges, your instead falling into water, which won't kill you, but can leave you "dead in the water" on tiny platforms where your range means nothing and you have only one or two pikmin to begin with. Even if you pluck more, in that pat of the stage where your on little islands emerging from the water most are going back into the water to drown. Plus the small KO walls with walk off stage limits create odd situations, that while olimar can perhaps edge things out in these situations, but they are messy and in general create situations where normal skill/ability doesn't prevail. In general also transforming stages are not Olimar's friends. Range and positioning are a big part of your game, so when suddenly the situation is chaos spacing often gets thrown to the mix, and your advantage becomes a situation that must be dealt with. Also throughout the level there are odd edges that result in PKMN Stadium like sitting, one below one above, giving certain advantages that result in waiting out the scene change. None of these reasons on their own seem overpowering against Olimar, however all total you end up with what is in my opinion one of the worst if not "the worst" stage for Olimar.

Castle Seige: This stage is similar to Delfino Plaza in many ways, and for that reason it is a difficult stage for Olimar. Again the transitioning stage is trouble for Olimar and spacing. Again a walk off area can create odd situations that must be taken account of. So taking it down part by part, heres what Olimar players must keep in mind to avoid the possible issues this stage can cause. The first rampart area is the most difficult to play effeciently. As on any graded/slanted or tilting stage, Olimar loses range, and consequently his advantage, whenever he is attacking uphill. It doesn't take much effort to see this, but the only effective counters to this are to control the high ground. This is further complicated by the two platforms allowing approach options for your opponents, as well as the stage being in general very small. To deal with constant pressure while at the same time controlling the high ground in a complicated situation is no easy task. Stalling is not a great option, but should be considered, as more often than not you'll find this a difficult situation. Scene Change. Here is an interesting stage, fairly high ceiling but not much horizontal space. However the stage is broken up by a few levels of platforms and those two annoying statues that make the stage play wider than it is. This part of the stage is fairly neutral, good general positioning can keep you alive, always be looking for the quick back throw or FSmash for a gimp kill from the walk off close KO walls. Also be very aware that your attacks will be delayed as they must first hit through the statues until collapsed. Unless you have them fairly high percent, play the walk off stage game rather than your normal juggling game, the platforms and ceiling make it worth while to play a little outside your normal. Overall its not bad, just different for olimar. Scene change. The third scene is a slightly modified Final Destination. Its a tad smaller so not as favorable as FD, but for the most part plays the same. I've never had much trouble with the ledges, the only real detail of note is that this stage is on an axis much the way Lylat cruise is, and being aware of the high ground, and playing accordingly, should be an additional point of interest to the normal pikmin order etc. Overall for this reason I'd keep Castle Stage as a lower middle pick, or even potentially worst pick if your not able to make use of the odd situation the 2nd phase of this level presents. This will also most likely become matchup specific, who you are able to effectively play the walk off game against and who not. Either way you see it, theres my breakdown of it.

Frigate Orpheon: Close but no large parasitic queen bug means just what it would seem. Don't be fooled by the seemingly apparent neutrality of this stage, the lack of edges able to be tethered, not to mention that the moving platform on the first phase of the stage can be very troublesome if its raising as your attempting to recover. The playable size of either stage isn't impressive, although it certainly allows for typical Olimar play. The platforms are also somewhat friendly for USmash, However be very cautious of being tethered when the stage flips, bad things happen. Really the killer is the difficult recovery is the biggest issue here, along with less than great space and platforms, this stage racks up as a solid neutral pick.

Luigi's Mansion: Not certain it'll be legal honestly, theres a fair sized dead zone where your pretty safe as long as the walls are up. Obviously they collapse, and it gets pretty standard, but it makes for Hyrule Temple positioning game of a slightly different flavor. I mean who wouldn't take a few hits but do whatever it takes to stand in a place where no matter how hard the hit, you can tech it and end up relatively safe. The floors can also limit Olimar's USmash/Juggling game. Overall, its a fairly basic level once you learn the dead zones and adjust your play style, its just kind of a normal level, however you must play a different play style to what seems as "normal". However, if you really like/rely on Olimar's horizontal game, this stage may be a primary pick for you if your allowed. We'll let others argue about if its legal and fair or not, and just know how to play em if the time comes.

Sorry for the disjointed writing, this has been pieced together sometimes even sentence by sentence, Hope it gets my points across well enough.

So, while in this disjointed time i decided to just rate all of the WIFI WARS Legal Stages.
*DISCLAIMERS*
First, this is Wifi War's list of legal stages, no neutral or counter distinctions, just a list.
Second, I didn't order them in each division by any rhyme or reason. First I feel it still strongly depends on your personal play style.
Third, I can't admit to have played 1000 hours on each stage as olimar vs every opponent, so this is just one Olimar mains opinion, as always. I'm more than open to discussion on any and all of them, and love discussion its what helps us develop as the olimar community apart from finding and improving our olimar play on our own. Just lets keep it respectful, if you hate everything i've ever written about olimar, sorry, if you take every word as truth, thanks, but lets keep discussion to honest questions or supported points apart from "i like playing on this stage cause it looks good and i always seem to beat my little sister on it..." Thanks guys =)

Great Stages:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Corneria
Shadow Moses Island
Pokemon Stadium 1
Luigi's Mansion

Middle Stages:
Green Hill Zone
Pirate Ship
Bridge of Eldin
Battleship Halberd
Castle Seige
Frigate Orpheon
Mario Circut
Electroplankton
Pokemon Stadium 2
Green Greens
Distant Planet

Worst Stages:
Delfino Plaza
Norfair
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Pictochat

-True

Blade Knight · Mar 22, 2008

Best Stage addition
FlatZone2
Low celings and a short stage give Olimar great kill oprotunities and suits both defensive and offensive stratagies. Also no edges and walk-off sides leave no room for gimping recovery removing his greatest weakness. Olimar is only in any true danger of being star KO-ed. Yellow and White pikmin are a common sight on this stage giving Olimar Incredible damage buildup and kill opprotunities!

Rhyme · Mar 22, 2008

Blade Knight: Flat Zone 2 is a nightmare--the platforms don't make sense and the hazards are overpowered (relative to size of stage). You can play there if you'd like, but I'm gonna steer clear.

True: I'm gonna have to disagree, as I always do , on a couple of points.

Corneria doesn't seem like it'd favor Olimar. Slopes in general seem to mess with him, and that stage is nothing but one huge slope. From the right side of the stage you're left with zero room to space your opponent in an uphill battle, and from the left you've got a fin that your opponents will camp and the ship gun that destroys low recoverers, which is Olimar since his tether doesn't work until he's below the ledge. There's exactly one benefit to this stage: low ceiling. One of the lowest in the game to my knowledge, but I still don't think that one benefit is enough to offset all the other bad stuff this stage does to Olimar. This should be more of a neutral pick than a favorable one.

Large stages can be good for Olimar, but vs certain characters they're exactly the opposite. Few characters can out-projectile Olimar. The only way Olimar fights against projectiles is by being able to cause more damage with them than his opponent can, thus making the opponent's projectile game neglidgible. But for Pit, Lucas, and Falco, theirs is just as good as yours (with TL coming in close behind). You don't want a stage that any of these four characters can use to projectile camp. All of the first three need quite a bit more space for effective camping than does Olimar, which accounts for my preference towards medium to small-sized stages. Maybe it's just that my style of play doesn't work well with space, I'm not sure. =/

If you ever do write out an impression or something of that nature, be sure to point me in its direction. : )

Blade Knight · Mar 22, 2008

Well Rhyme I didn't say I like the stage either but I have noticed Olimar does Play better and has more options available to him on this stage.

Marilink · Mar 22, 2008

Flatzone 2 is just scary, no matter who you're playing as.

Basically, my only two cents for this topic are thus: Sky world sucks.

Blade Knight · Mar 22, 2008

Heck I don't see what wrong with FZ2 its a neat stage and i havn't got a problem avoiding tthe hazards.

Rhyme · Mar 22, 2008

Blade Knight said:
Well Rhyme I didn't say I like the stage either but I have noticed Olimar does Play better and has more options available to him on this stage.

My bad, I missunderstood your enthusiasm.

TrueRedemption · Mar 22, 2008

Flatzone 2 is gonna be banned, 100% sorry. May be good for olimar, but i'm not too interested in the crazy stages anyway. And for you rhyme, just some reasoning for Corneria.

First off its a not a bad stage for ceiling KOs. You also guessed part of it like the space, very long stage means people have a harder time keeping too much pressure on you as well as less difference between great/poor recovery. Also if you know how to use the wall/fin of the ship, you can get people stuck in a really long chain of FSmashes, bouncing your opponent back against the wall and then hitting them with another smash while they are still bouncing with hit stun. Near Side KO walls also favors FAir and killing throws. Also you can play the positioning game, either under the fin or on the rest of the stage. Just be more patient than your opponent, plus you can throw stuff if you need. Its annoying, but i play to win games whatever that means at the time.

-True

Blade Knight · Mar 22, 2008

Rhyme said:
My bad, I missunderstood your enthusiasm.

You know I can't tell weither your being sarrcastic or not when you say that but I just thought I'd throw Flatzone 2 out there with results from my own reaserch. Btw Olimar does well on Mushroomy Kingdom (1) also.

scalpel · Mar 23, 2008

I believe Corneria is the most ideal stage for Olimar. The entire stage is uneven, giving Olimar an advantage for grabbing. When grabbing, his Pikmin treats the stage like a normal, leveled stage. On steep slopes, Olimar's grab can reach surprising distances.

Olimar can also KO opponents simply by juggling them into the ceiling using his Up-Air attacks. The ceiling is ridiculously low - so low that Olimar doesn't even need to use Up-smashes to KO opponents. The low ceiling only emphasizes on Olimar's extremely powerful Up-smash.

The right side of the ship is a fantastic place for Olimar. He simply dominates that small area. Like some people have already mentioned, by cornering opponents into the wall, Olimar can spam forward-smashes into the opponent almost endlessly because they keep bouncing back towards Olimar. The right boundary of the map is also very close to the ship, allowing Olimar to score KOs with his forward-air attacks. Olimar can also tether onto the dorsal fin of the ship. This can be an extremely surprising tactic for escaping dangerous situations. For example, if Olimar was launched to the right side of the screen, he can tether onto the back end of the ship, jump into the air, and tether once more onto the dorsal fin of the ship.

Corneria is a perfect stage for Olimar because it capitalizes all of Olimar's strengths, and reduces danger while tethering by giving Olimar an extra spot on the map to tether.

nevershootme · Mar 23, 2008

The problem with Corneria is that in some tournaments, they will allow the opposing player to ban a stage, if they know how olimar works, then they'll ban corneria. the wall locking on the right side. will simply rack up the opponent to 80-90% and follow with an up smash to finish them off

although it's a great camping place for olimar, therefore some could ban it for that purpose.

scalpel · Mar 23, 2008

nevershootme said:
The problem with Corneria is that in some tournaments, they will allow the opposing player to ban a stage, if they know how olimar works, then they'll ban corneria. the wall locking on the right side. will simply rack up the opponent to 80-90% and follow with an up smash to finish them off

although it's a great camping place for olimar, therefore some could ban it for that purpose.

That is true. If I was up against an Olimar user, I would most definitely choose to ban Corneria, as well. However, this is a good thing for Olimar users, because there are other stages that Olimar excels in. It's pretty much a win-win situation for Olimar users, in terms of stages. If Corneria is the battleground, Olimar will have an advantage. If Corneria is banned by the opponent, Olimar can still get an advantage on other stages like Shadow Moses Island and Smashville.

keeper · Mar 23, 2008

Am I really the only Olimar user that loves Norfair and hates Shadow Moses? I feel weird now. >_>

SKEET SHADY · Mar 23, 2008

I'm like norfair. You are not alone. I HATE Rainbow Cruise/Mute City though.

Blade Knight · Mar 23, 2008

I like shadow moses its a great stage!

Rapid_Assassin · Mar 24, 2008

This opinion is slightly biased. I'm a Peach player who plays against an Olimar main a lot. But this is one of the better threads in this board, so it's worth bumping.

Best stages for Olimar:

Anything that he can't be edgeguard gimped on. Shadow Moses Island, Onett, and anything else with a permanent "walk off" as opposed to a pit.
Small simple stages, to minimize other characters' better recoveries and allow you to outspam your opponent. Battlefield, Final destination.

Worst stages:

Anything quick moving, distracting, and most likely banned from tournaments. Big Blue and similar.
Skyworld (easy to be gimped on this stage, and lose pikmen randomly)
Delfino Plaza (big, easy gimping)

Florida · Mar 29, 2008

keeper said:
Am I really the only Olimar user that loves Norfair and hates Shadow Moses? I feel weird now. >_>

Actually, my opinion on Norfair has changed after playing on it some. Each platform has a ledge that can be grabbed, so that really gives Olimar an advantage over his horrible recovery. Also, the lava can sometimes prevent gimps and earthward K.O.s. Red pikmin being plucked out also helps his game on the stage.

I'd actually say that Norfair is one of the best stages for Olimar. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Norfair isn't banned from tournament play; it's counterpick legal, actually. This would make an excellent counterpick in my opinion.

Delfino Plaza: I hate it. I'm moving that puppy down to the "worst stages" list.

scalpel · Mar 29, 2008

I've never played in a tournament before. Is Corneria considered a banned stage?

I really hope not. Corneria, in my opinion, is the best stage for Olimar. As I've mentioned already, it has the lowest ceiling out of all of the stages.

M.K · Mar 29, 2008

Olimar NEEDS a flat stage. Once you get all those twisty curvy roads, those Pikmin go flying.

scalpel · Mar 29, 2008

Meta-Kirby said:
Olimar NEEDS a flat stage. Once you get all those twisty curvy roads, those Pikmin go flying.

Hello mate.

On a flat stage, Olimar's range is fully utilized. That is true. However, the fact that Corneria's uneven stage limits both Olimar's and his opponent's range can be used to Olimar's advantage.

Olimar's forward smash is definitely limited in Corneria. If Olimar is attacking against the slope, his Pikmin hit the slope and do not fly very far. If he is attacking away from the slope, his Pikmin shoot out and then drop down, which is not very effective.

However, Olimar's grabs are not penalized on Corneria. His Pikmin treat the stage as if it was a flat stage, when grabbing. The Pikmin travel quite far up and down the slope when Olimar grabs. When we consider how Corneria affects the opponent, as well, it is clear that Olimar has the advantage on this stage because of his grab range.

Also, on the right side of the stage, Olimar can punish opponents by trapping them against the wall. Olimar can spam forward-smashes almost endlessly when the opponent is pressed against the wall because the opponent just bounces back into the forward smashes. It's not the most dignified way to beat an opponent, but it's a good safety net. Plus, the right boundary of Corneria is very close to the ship, so Olimar can kill more easily with his throws and forward-airs.

One last reason why I believe Corneria is the best stage for Olimar is the ship's dorsal fin. Olimar can tether on the ship's dorsal fin! This gives Olimar an extra spot to save himself in certain situations. If Olimar gets trapped into the wall on the right side, he can easily escape by tethering onto the dorsal fin. It adds an extra element to the match, and Olimar certainly benefits from it.

The low ceiling only capitalizes on Olimar's powerful up-smash and up-air juggling abilities.

Delere · Mar 29, 2008

I like the custom maze stage that was pre-loaded onto the game, I can usmash ko at 30% :chuckle:

My personal favorite is Shadow Moses, as long as the pillars stay intact and you stay below your opponent there is almost nothing they can do to beat you.

I like Battlefield and Corneria as well, I think Onett isn't a great stage for Olimar. Any smart opponent will stay in between the two houses as much as possible, and there's not really anything you can do to make them move for long enough to get a usmash or fsmash in. On the bottom the ceiling is pretty high, and pretty often your fsmash(with a non purple) will just send them bouncing off the houses. While it can be good for combos, it really hurts your ability to KO

. Although the stage is a miracle for a blue bthrow

BrookieMonster · Mar 29, 2008

I have to agree, Shadow Moses Island is an excellent stage for Olimar.
It seems to me, however, that most of the neutral stages are terrible for him, as it's often impossible for him to recover, especially if he hasn't got any Pikmin on him.

Olimar Stage Counterpicks: Discussion on Olimar's Best and Worst Stage Match-ups

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