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Stop Promoting and Perpetuating Myths About Brawl-Positive Views for Brawl

AlphaZealot

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1) 3 stock 5 minutes.
This makes no sense. Even I was saying this, then I took a step back and was like, wait, no...that makes no sense. Why in a game that supposedly takes longer are we decreasing the allowable time at a faster rate than the allowable stock. Ideally we want as few games as possible to be decided by the time limit. If Brawl stocks do indeed last longer than we shouldn't be decreasing the ration of stock to time, but increasing it or at least keeping it the same.
3 stock 6 minutes, 3 or 4 stock 8 minutes are good. 3 stock 5 minutes are bad.

*2 stock 3 minutes for online play is a different story and exception to this rule where we sacrifice time in order to get replays.

2) You live **** tons longer in Brawl than in Melee.
Not true at all. Yes, you live longer, agreed, but its more like, maybe on average 20-30% longer, not the original 50-80% some people were exaggerating. If you start looking for the gimp moves like you did in Melee, you'll start killing the opponent at less damage. The longer this game is played, the quicker people will begin to die, we might as well already admit to ourselves the you only live slightly longer.

3) There are no safe approaches.
Not true. Tons of characters are starting to show signs of safe approaches. Just look at Diddy Kong. Throw out two banana's, dash attack over the bananas toward the opponent (picking up a banana) then throw the banana, or attack then throw the banana, or...oh man, tons of options that are basically nonpunishable by the opponent. Its like you have 2 items to throw/prevent movement from the opponent plus you have a dash attack into whatever the heck you want.

4) There are no combos.
Diddy, again, with Banana's can bust out 50, 60, 70% combo's at ease...you just have to use your bananas and the IASA framese from his dash attack (along with the new property that you can pick up items just by attacking, plus Diddy doesn't trip over bananas unless the opponent throws it/he is teching). Tons of other characters have combo's as well, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

5) Brawl is less deep than Melee.
Could be true. Not true if you want to actually make this statement right now. We don't know this yet, as much you may want to believe that you completely understand all facets of gameplay in Brawl, you don't, and you won't, not for several years. Understanding this has nothing to do with Brawl and everything to do with life. You will always learn more, understand more, and dwell deeper into things the longer you do them. A month of playing is only enough to scratch the surface, and making judgments based just on this face value and Melee comparisons is ignorant. We lost wavedashing. We lost Lcanceling. We are going to gain tons of stuff back, lets see what develops before we decide these missing elements totally ruined Brawl.
-----
If you get one thing from this post it should be this:
STOP EXAGGERATING EVERY SINGLE INEQUALITY YOU FIND AS GOSPEL THAT BRAWL DOES NOT COMPARE TO MELEE COMPETITIVELY. IT IS TOO EARLY TO JUDGE THIS, NO MATTER HOW AMAZING YOU THINK YOU ARE.
 

Zink

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STEP YO GAME UP
not disagreeing or anything, but can you list some more approaches? I can't say that I've seen to many safe ones, considering some characters have awesome defensive moves (hi wolf fsmash).

wow I spelled wolf wrong :(
 

Brightside6382

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how is "no combos" a myth? The air dodging system combined with almost little hit stun forces combo's to be impossible. Only a few characters have exceptions to this but for the most part anything beyond a 2-hit combo is near impossible/improbable to anyone who knows how to press L and R down.
 

solidpit

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how is "no combos" a myth? The air dodging system combined with almost little hit lag forces combo's to be impossible. Only a few characters have exceptions to this but for the most part anything beyond a 2-hit combo is near impossible/improbable to anyone who knows how to press L and R down.
*coughhitstuncough*
 

MajinSweet

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Wow, I'm shocked to see a sane post. I was expecting "Melee is more competitive than Brawl, thats a FACT!" when discussing something very subjective. Its about time someone actually compared things evenly and didn't put Brawl down at every possible moment.
 

SynikaL

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Alpha, you want to prove to people on the boards that the sentiments you're addressing are mere fallacies? Spread some actual knowledge. That post does nothing. Waiving one character's potential in two specific areas as a banner for your "It's too early to judge!" campaign does little to mitigate or suppress this "ignorance". You're obviously privy to information most of us aren't, so use the boards to inform us.

Here, help me. I play Mario, Ike, Snake, Ganon, Fox and Falco. What gimp methods have I overlooked? What combos? What approach methods? Don't keep it among your crew. Don't keep it in the Backroom. Bring it out here. Zink asked you for some help and you gave him an idea for one character. You're going to have to be more resourceful than that.

If you want to stem the tide of negativity, counter-arguments have been done to death and will continue to be horse-beaten as long as people are disappointed in Brawl. Arouse people's awareness of the specifics if you want to actually help make things better and further the development of the scene in the process.

-Syn
 

Puffs

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Messages
763
Here, help me. I play Mario, Ike, Snake, Ganon, Fox and Falco. What gimp methods have I overlooked? What combos? What approach methods? Don't keep it among your crew. Don't keep it in the Backroom. Bring it out here. Zink asked you for some help and you gave him an idea for one character. You're going to have to be more resourceful than that.

-Syn
Mario: Back throw, Super Jump Punch

Ike: Counter

Snake: Up smash, C4

Ganondorf: Wizard's Foot

Fox and Falco: Being Fox and Falco
 

AlphaZealot

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I haven't played more than a 10 or matches with most characters and some characters I've played less than 5. Of course not every character will have an amazing approach like Diddy does, but new things will arise, that they haven't yet says nothing about Brawl deepness and speaks volume about its infancy.

Azen pretty much 0-death combo'd me last night using ROB. Think of times when Jigglypuff could carry a person from the side of the stage all the way to the kill zone using bair/fairs and thats what Azen did using ROB (and I think ROBs Fair, not sure, haven't played more than 2 matches with ROB). This doesn't even mention Azen's freaking Marth/Metaknight.

ChuDat did similar things to me using Ness/Pit/Sonic. Neither Azen nor Chu really had an answer for Diddy's Banana approach though, that **** is to good.

I don't have suggestions for Mario/Ike/etc. I've played Snake maybe 3 times, Ganon twice, Fox/Falco around a dozen each, Mario about a dozen as well. In all this playing, I didn't once think to myself "man, I know everything there is to know about this character already".
----
Actually, for Snake, you can use his down B out of his dash attack (or during it or something, Azen was doing it all over the place, sigh), its not more than a 2 hit combo but the KO potential is insane, apparently the timing is difficult but it looks sweet as ****. I don't know if this is common knowledge or not for Snake users.
----
It seems like your upset because I don't happen to know everything about every character a week after getting the game, when thats entirely my point, things will arise and will continue to arise for quite some time, judging a game based on a week to one month time period is unreasonable and not indicative of what the game actually offers. Some characters will take much longer to develop than others, Peach's weren't using the Parasol for combo's until 2006 after all (well, weren't frequently using). That I or others don't have answers for every character yet doesn't mean the statements in my above post aren't true, by my focus on Diddy was mainly to explain the "tip of the iceberg" idea, especially since, well, no one seems to care about Diddy AT ALL and everyone is still gawking over Meta/Marth, among others.
---
Ganon didn't have many 3+ hit combos in Melee, don't expect slow, powerful characters to have them. When Azen used Ike yesterday he was just mad predicting everything, they weren't combo's in the sense that I couldn't escape, but that doesn't detract from the fact that he was able to sometimes land 3,4,5,6 hits in a row before I had a chance to really recover.
 

fkacyan

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I love you.

I was saying this last night, but nobody seems to think that you can't judge something in the first week.

EDIT: Saw this...

as long as people are disappointed in Brawl
People are saying this because they think less-skilled players are winning. Maybe the people who are losing aren't as good as you think they are.

Melee skill does not really translate into Brawl skill. The natures of the games are very different. Somebody who comes from Melee is likely going to come into Brawl trying to play it the same way. That will make you lose.
 

SynikaL

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It seems like your upset because I don't happen to know everything about every character a week after getting the game, when thats entirely my point
No. While I appreciate the thoughtful response (the post was informative), you seemed to miss my real point, which is summed up in the last paragraph.

I'm tired of seeing arguments for/against Brawl -- I just want to see the game start to develop already. That's not going to happen through pie-in-the-sky expectations or mantras of hope or patience. It will happen when the individuals who are actually putting in the time and effort start sharing. I don't care about the fact that you think Brawl has potential; I'm merely concerned with the "why". I don't see you contributing in the various forums with these essential "whys", so posts like you original just seem airy.

My message might be kind of jumbled there and for that I'm sorry. I'm sick, so I'm not putting the effort I typically do into my posts.

Thiocyanide:


Your conclusion hinges on the premise that people are disappointed with Brawl because they're bad at it. If you want anyone to take that allegation seriously, you're going to need more than fragmented thoughts in a forum post.


-Kye
 

Dark Sonic

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@Synikal. Well I can't be of much help for the other characters, but I've found Ike's nair to be an amazing approach method. It has a wide range, lots of stun, low ending lag, ect, and easily chains into Ike's jab, which is a very safe move for him with jab canceling. His side B is also a great way to cover short bursts of distance (kinda like wavedashing, although admittedly not as good) as long as you make sure to fall just short of striking distance, so that you can take advantage of the low lag that he has when he doesn't slash. RAR is also a decent aproach method with how fast Ike's bair is, and if done quickly the bair ends before you hit the ground (this approach is not as good though, because your opponent could just shield the bair and have time to hit you. It's mostly an anti air approach).
 

fkacyan

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Your conclusion hinges on the premise that people are disappointed with Brawl because they're bad at it. If you want anyone to take that allegation seriously, you're going to need more than fragmented thoughts in a forum post.
Why complain about how good people are losing to bad people if:

1) You don't consider yourself or others good?
2) You don't consider the people you / the others are losing to bad?

People are coming in, playing a Melee style in Brawl, losing some and winning some (i.e., lower win rate than in Melee), and are complaining because 'there's no technical skill required to win,' or they're losing despite the fact they have technical skill.

If my conclusion is wrong, where does the complaint stem from, hm?
 

SynikaL

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@Synikal. Well I can't be of much help for the other characters, but I've found Ike's nair to be an amazing approach method. It has a wide range, lots of stun, low ending lag, ect, and easily chains into Ike's jab, which is a very safe move for him with jab canceling. His side B is also a great way to cover short bursts of distance (kinda like wavedashing, although admittedly not as good) as long as you make sure to fall just short of striking distance, so that you can take advantage of the low lag that he has when he doesn't slash. RAR is also a decent aproach method with how fast Ike's bair is, and if done quickly the bair ends before you hit the ground (this approach is not as good though, because your opponent could just shield the bair and have time to hit you. It's mostly an anti air approach).
I do all those things with Ike. Thank you, though.

Ha ha, really though, no one was supposed to really take that part of the post seriously.


-Kye
 

KillaOR

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Slippi.gg
Kila#697
1) 3 stock 5 minutes.
This makes no sense. Even I was saying this, then I took a step back and was like, wait, no...that makes no sense. Why in a game that supposedly takes longer are we decreasing the allowable time at a faster rate than the allowable stock. Ideally we want as few games as possible to be decided by the time limit. If Brawl stocks do indeed last longer than we shouldn't be decreasing the ration of stock to time, but increasing it or at least keeping it the same.
3 stock 6 minutes, 3 or 4 stock 8 minutes are good. 3 stock 5 minutes are bad.

*2 stock 3 minutes for online play is a different story and exception to this rule where we sacrifice time in order to get replays.

2) You live **** tons longer in Brawl than in Melee.
Not true at all. Yes, you live longer, agreed, but its more like, maybe on average 20-30% longer, not the original 50-80% some people were exaggerating. If you start looking for the gimp moves like you did in Melee, you'll start killing the opponent at less damage. The longer this game is played, the quicker people will begin to die, we might as well already admit to ourselves the you only live slightly longer.

3) There are no safe approaches.
Not true. Tons of characters are starting to show signs of safe approaches. Just look at Diddy Kong. Throw out two banana's, dash attack over the bananas toward the opponent (picking up a banana) then throw the banana, or attack then throw the banana, or...oh man, tons of options that are basically nonpunishable by the opponent. Its like you have 2 items to throw/prevent movement from the opponent plus you have a dash attack into whatever the heck you want.

4) There are no combos.
Diddy, again, with Banana's can bust out 50, 60, 70% combo's at ease...you just have to use your bananas and the IASA framese from his dash attack (along with the new property that you can pick up items just by attacking, plus Diddy doesn't trip over bananas unless the opponent throws it/he is teching). Tons of other characters have combo's as well, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

5) Brawl is less deep than Melee.
Could be true. Not true if you want to actually make this statement right now. We don't know this yet, as much you may want to believe that you completely understand all facets of gameplay in Brawl, you don't, and you won't, not for several years. Understanding this has nothing to do with Brawl and everything to do with life. You will always learn more, understand more, and dwell deeper into things the longer you do them. A month of playing is only enough to scratch the surface, and making judgments based just on this face value and Melee comparisons is ignorant. We lost wavedashing. We lost Lcanceling. We are going to gain tons of stuff back, lets see what develops before we decide these missing elements totally ruined Brawl.
-----
If you get one thing from this post it should be this:
STOP EXAGGERATING EVERY SINGLE INEQUALITY YOU FIND AS GOSPEL THAT BRAWL DOES NOT COMPARE TO MELEE COMPETITIVELY. IT IS TOO EARLY TO JUDGE THIS, NO MATTER HOW AMAZING YOU THINK YOU ARE.
I love you AZ
 

Infamaz

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The approach that I use most frequently is F-air with charizard. From there many things can happen: If your opponent blocked, you may be able to grab your opponent, leading to an U-throw to Up-B at low damages. If you land the attack at low damages, there will be some hit stun from where you can grab, Forward-B, etc.. If you land only the last part of the attack you're screwed. With Game and Watch, I like to approach N-air to U-tilt, grab, or bacon. Not sure if these will help considering the person I play with most is probably half the skill of most players here.
 

Finch

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Thank you for making this post, even if the ignorant people this is directed to aren't listening. We don't know anything about brawl yet, so people who make long posts pretending to know exactly how it plays need to stfu. Cry more.
 

Card

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Great post AZ,

Maybe now the community can actually move on and we can focus on evolving the game as opposed to comparing it to Melee or focusing on what brawl is missing.
 

jwj442

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Jun 27, 2003
Messages
212
So, on a related note: what are some good approach options for DK? From my experience, he has a hard time with campers. I've found that the down-B is useful at times because it hits shields pretty hard, but obviously that can't be used too much.
 

hoopspr226

Smash Journeyman
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Mar 5, 2007
Messages
279
jwj442:
DK: back air and ftilt are both good approach options. Both have good range and if spaced correctly neither should be shield grab-able

Synikal:
You seem pretty knowledgeable so I'm guessing you may already know the following approach options, but I'll just say it anyway
Fox: Switching up dair -> grab and dair -> up tilt are both pretty safe/effective approach options. Dair to grab seems to work particularly well. Also, a well timed and well spaced nair leads into a ungrab-able jab + whatever.
Snake: I'm less familiar with, but a correctly spaced dash attack which ends behind the opponent seems like a pretty good approach option
 

Demon Kirby

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Great post AZ,

Maybe now the community can actually move on and we can focus on evolving the game as opposed to comparing it to Melee or focusing on what brawl is missing.
I want to see this above all else. Anything else. Except maybe a dancing dragon juggling flaming pies on top of a semi-truck.

This thread has less posts than I expected it would have . . .
 

contagion

Smash Rookie
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2
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NY
Could someone give me some good approach ideas/strategies with Lucario?

His running slide move is too easy to shield into a grab. I'm new on the competitive scene and although I played with competitive players in Melee it wasn't anyone famous and people in this thread seem to have seem great ideas thus far as far as approaches go. Any help is appreciated. :)
 

Firestorm88

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I'd really like to emphasize my agreement with #1. I've had one or two 7 minute matches in Brawl where there was no stalling. Although iirc those matches were a little laggy and maybe WiFi goes at real time even though the match isn't.

Thiocyanide:


Your conclusion hinges on the premise that people are disappointed with Brawl because they're bad at it. If you want anyone to take that allegation seriously, you're going to need more than fragmented thoughts in a forum post.


-Kye
People are disappointed with Brawl because they expect Brawl to be at the stage Melee is 6 years after release. Spend less time complaining about Brawl and more time discovering new things in Brawl.
 

Rusty Shacklefurd

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For people with questions about how your character is supposed to make an approach, those are the exact kind of questions that are 50 times more likely to get a decent answer in the Character Specific section. That's why that area exist. But anyways, Ike's n-air is a wicked approach, as well as a retaliation. There have been several times I've approached with a n-air that led into a really good combo, not to mention all the times I've done a n-air out of shield and hit my opponent while he was in front/above/below/behind me and used it to lead right into one of his many other great attacks.
 

Undrdog

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Approach = Powershield.

I would really like to see someone like Mew2King figure out the frame data for the Powershield. I've approached a spamming Falco (keep in mind this was largely due to no skill of my own) and Powershielded two lasers and a melee attack during an approach that barely ever lost forward momentum. I have videos on YouTube for those of you unfamiliar with it. It's pretty much just shielding at the last possible second and coming out of your shield with no lag within a couple frames.
 

CT Chia

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y should matches have to be limited so much in time? melee was 7 minutes, and it used to be 8! why cant we just limit it to 7 min in brawl? matches barely exceed 4.5 mins anyway
 

SynikaL

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I'd really like to emphasize my agreement with #1. I've had one or two 7 minute matches in Brawl where there was no stalling. Although iirc those matches were a little laggy and maybe WiFi goes at real time even though the match isn't.



People are disappointed with Brawl because they expect Brawl to be at the stage Melee is 6 years after release. Spend less time complaining about Brawl and more time discovering new things in Brawl.
Shutup. I'm not "complaining" about anything, learn to read. I don't even get involved in the various Brawl debates anymore.

But I can see you've adopted this shiny new comparison mantra like the wet sponge that you are, so let me ask this:

How do you think Melee got to the level it is today? Because what we knew about the game in 2002 seemed shallow and limiting? Or because the game reeked of potential from the beginning, inspiring people to get better?

Perfect Control wasn't made in 2008. Because of Melee's more open-ended design philosophy, the gameplay is d@mn near limitless.

You fools can continue to hope Brawl will magically spread its wings one day and ascend from its Court Jester position, while I'll simply continue to indulge in its inherent and humble talents.


I'm done here.



-SynikaL
 

rageagainst

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the "ppl living longer" is far overexaggerated, mostly because of the fact that some chars that used to be able to get kills easy can't do so any more. there IS validity in the statement, as EVERYONES recovery has been buffed, but the wall/sky KOs happen just as often as in melee.

Aww it takes MK, fox, sheik, and Pit forever to get kills, try and kick them with zelda, hit them with Ike, or with dedede. The characters that used to get kills easy in melee arn't in brawl because they arn't supposed to.
 

Commodity

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Shutup. I'm not "complaining" about anything, learn to read. I don't even get involved in the various Brawl debates anymore.

But I can see you've adopted this shiny new comparison mantra like the wet sponge that you are, so let me ask this:

How do you think Melee got to the level it is today? Because what we knew about the game in 2002 seemed shallow and limiting? Or because the game reeked of potential from the beginning, inspiring people to get better?

Perfect Control wasn't made in 2008. Because of Melee's more open-ended design philosophy, the gameplay is d@mn near limitless.

You fools can continue to hope Brawl will magically spread its wings one day and ascend from its Court Jester position, while I'll simply continue to indulge in its inherent and humble talents.


I'm done here.



-SynikaL
Oh, you. You're just the coming of Christ aren'tcha?
 

Collective of Bears

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the "ppl living longer" is far overexaggerated, mostly because of the fact that some chars that used to be able to get kills easy can't do so any more. there IS validity in the statement, as EVERYONES recovery has been buffed, but the wall/sky KOs happen just as often as in melee.

Aww it takes MK, fox, sheik, and Pit forever to get kills, try and kick them with zelda, hit them with Ike, or with dedede. The characters that used to get kills easy in melee arn't in brawl because they arn't supposed to.
Exactly.

And lol at your sig. Zoolander ftw.
 

AlphaZealot

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1) No one can djc in Brawl. Thought this was a universal truth that wouldn't need to be said, though I guess your right because without this Ness isn't a Carbon copy. I should rephrase, ChuDat's Ness is almost a carbon copy of his Melee's Ness, most people didn't abuse/hinge their strats on djc except the really technical/advanced Ness players in Melee.

2) I like where this discussion is going because a lot of people are talking about different approaches with different characters and we haven't had many threads like this yet. I think Synikal is just taking a more...cynical approach to the subject. In 2002 Melee had potential, sure, but really, it wasn't until 2004/2005 that people REALLY knew its potential. It took forever for technical foxes/Falco's to emerge and once they did thats when the hysteria really started.

Talking with players who didn't main Fox/Falco in Melee though is refreshing because I've noticed they mostly have a much fresher view and openness to Brawl.
 

Mario77

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Oct 25, 2007
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186
Azen pretty much 0-death combo'd me last night using ROB. Think of times when Jigglypuff could carry a person from the side of the stage all the way to the kill zone using bair/fairs and thats what Azen did using ROB (and I think ROBs Fair, not sure, haven't played more than 2 matches with ROB). This doesn't even mention Azen's freaking Marth/Metaknight.

... There is no way ROB can 0-death combo someone unless A) they suck, or B) you let them.
It only counts as a combo if its near unescapeable, not being new to the game and not knowing how to escape it yet...

Show me a vid of ROB 0-death comboing someone who has played and knows ROB well. It wont happen.

I still prefer Brawl over Melee though for other reasons.
 
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