A New Threat

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

So I often go to other boards just to see what discoveries have been made and to tlak about different characters since I plan on playing a multitude of characters in Brawl.

I like to be up to date on character's best strats and devise ways to maximizr thier potential and develop appropriate counter measures as well.

I stumbled upon this little technique while in the Samus forums.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142932

This technique has been dubbed Zair.

Now check out this thread.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145968

And check out these vids to see it in action.

Hylian(Samus) vs Kal(Marth) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC3QCG_halM
Hylian(Samus) vs Kal(Marth) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c99nvpJtYJ0
Hylian(Samus) vs Kal(Marth) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pme_x18QVII
Hylian(Samus) vs Kal(Marth) 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zxz8irL2e4
Hylian(Samus) vs Kal(Marth) 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SInIMbO-sZU

Hylian says it destroys Marth and his approach.

So what say you Marth players?

Shall we find a way to crush this technique?

I think this is just what we needed to light a fire in our bellies.

Marth was getting pretty boring IMO. Maybe this will inspire our passion, no?

So any ideas on how to beat this?

I have my own ideas of course, but let's get some discussion going first.

Also check out this thread too for some discussion between me and Hylian.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145625

Warlock*G · Mar 1, 2008

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha! XD

Edit: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! :laugh:

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

Uhhh huh.

Look bro I don't care if you are laughing at me or the idea that a potential low tier could give a potential top tier trouble, but if you can't contribute then please don't post.

jwj442 · Mar 1, 2008

Hylian said those are older videos where he wasn't properly using Samus, BTW.

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

I know that, but it's all we have to go on for now. When he post better ones then I'll post them here.

Irow · Mar 1, 2008

Hylian is underestimating Marth's full jump approach, as well as a rising air dodge - to fair.

If a Samus were to try to uair or up b a Marth's full jump, you could just DI back and fair/nair it. You could counter it, you could even dair it.

Zair is amazing, I know. But it's not the overlord of all aerials. I'll put money on that.

When the scene settles in America, I'll gladly MM anyone who want to disprove me.

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

One thing Hylian said was that to counter jump to airdodge Samus could grab when she lands from Zair.

I'm fairly certain that the Zair is almost twice the range of ehr grab so that would only work if Marth airdodges forward.

Alternatively couldn't Marth jump after the airdodge?

Another thing I was thinking of was shield the Zair and then drom the shield and then dash into a SH.

Or shield it then roll towards Samus when she goes for a grab.

But if the her grab really is shorter then you could just shield it and then drop your shield and dash in after her grab is fully extended. This way the beam won't actually grab you and Samus is pulling back the grapple beam.

These are all things that need testing.

kenkowtow · Mar 1, 2008

Hylian said:
4. Marth cannot approach with full hops because samus's uair and up B are amazing and marth is weak from below.

And a little later..

Hylian said:
So basically, on stages where you can keep marth a grapple distance away, you will own them. If they do manage to get inside your grapple range, remember the amazing shield parry in this game. That mixed with samus's jab game makes it hard to do things to her without being interupted. DO NOT LET MARTH FAIR YOU. You will be destroyed if you let the marth fair you alot. Also, stay on the stage aside from edgeguarding. Marth is also very hard to kill with samus. I reccommend using zair to chargeshot then edgeguard. Also, dtilt kills now.

On smaller stages where you cannot zair easily, marth destroys samus because of his fair combos and his ability to keep her above him.

Counterpick FD against marth. It is really easy to gimp his recovery.

So are Marths and Samuss doomed to a match of counterpicking?

EDIT: One question about Zair. When used are the hitboxes canceled after blocking it? Like, in Melee where Link's Up-B would only hit once, as opposed to Bowser's Up-B, regardless if you stayed in the circle..

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

Well Marth could counter when she chases him after a full jump. But I would just airdodge through her so I can land on the ground. This way I have an advantage in positioning.

Edit: Off topic, but I can't wait to fool around with Zair with Toon Link. lol.

kenkowtow · Mar 1, 2008

Emblem Lord said:
Well Marth could counter when she chases him after a full jump. But I would just airdodge through her so I can land on the ground. This way I have an advantage in positioning.

Sorry I don't quite understand what you're saying there. Think you could make a theoretical scenario?

Also, I haven't played the game so all I'm saying can be deemed off as theoretical musings but how "good" is Marth's traction? I know in Melee you could run and slide into a spot dodge, and using the same tactic, but I assume you would have to activate it preemptively. I assume that the Samus would be descending with Zair, thereby taking advantage of the 3-4 frame "lag" so then I wouldn't know how to counter, if it would be possible at all.

Hylian · Mar 1, 2008

Marth vs Samus matches are going to be amazing, because even if you do find away around the zair..it is lagless...so samus could just do something else to counter that. Then you have to find another way. It will go back and fourth

. Mindgames ftw. XD.

Also, I am editing a ton of videos right now.

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

Well the scenario is pretty basic.

Marth full jump approaches and then Samus jumps up after him. If she uairs then Marth can airdodge through her or counter. Same with her up b. But her up b would be a little harder to react to. You would have to predict it.

Fast Fall Zair is a little trickier to deal with IMO. But since it is lower to the ground I think Marth doing a SH would be good. Or a full hop approach.

The grapple seems to really come out in a straight line, so I think Samus has to be precise to hit with it. I have seen the Zair just barely fly over Marth's head and it didn't hit.

I think exploiting that will be vital in dealing with the Zair.

Edit: Ahhh. Hylian wtf. You totally posted between my response to the question.

lol.

Gum · Mar 1, 2008

heres something that many are not considering: Its not JUST the zair that stops marth. its the fact that it is cancelable. samus can literally do anything out of it. Think about the fact that her down tilt literally DOES outrange marths fsmash. i have played the game btw, so i can speak on this. her uair and fair have gotten a huge boost from melee to brawl. this is especially in the case of her uair, which has rediculous priority and comboability. fair is completely disjointed now. Both of these can be used following a zair. whichever is used depends obviousley on what marth does in response.

Another thing to conseder is that samus uncharged canon fire has STUN now. a significant amount too. significant enough to be able to incorporate into projectile AND close range attack mix-ups.

The fact that samus still hits pretty hard and combos very well means that at any point, if marth slips up and gets caught, he is in danger of being comboed to hell and knocked away, meaning that he now has to reset an approach.

Point is this. Zair is good by itself, but the fact that anything can follow it means that marth has a lot to deal with. A good samus player is not just going to bank on the zair hitting marth. In fact, a good samus player is going to use it to bait the hell out of marth and basically read him like a book. marth has a limited number of options, whereas samus has a plethora. marth HAS to do respond to it, which in fact is a trap all in itself. seems to me like marth is going to have to change his game up completely when going against high level samus players.

One last thing. Samus' short hop is AMAZING in brawl. she jumps a lot lower than marth on the short hop, but still has the ability to zair AND homing missile in the same jump with the right timing of course. consider this as well.

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

This is true.

But it's the Zair itself that opens up these possibilities, which is why I made this thread.

So Marth players can discuss ways on how to counter it.

No one can read minds, but players can come up with the most reliable means of dealing with strats that cover alot of their opponents options.

I know Samus can do anything out of her Zair.

Peach could do anything out of her float cancelled aerials in Melee, but she was far from unstoppable.

All a player had to do was choose an option to cover Peaches best options and usually they were good.

Either that or do something really safe like SH back and fair with Marth or roll.

Irow · Mar 1, 2008

Ban FD when you enter the Match.

We would most likely need platforms to abuse. Especially since Marth has a great deal more mobility than Samus. As long as you get in their face quick, Samus can't do much. If they start camping with Missiles on FD, we should just camp with edgehop, causing Samus to get closer. It'll be easier that way.

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

Also about the range thing.

It's great that Samus outranges Marth and all that, but honestly range isn't everything.

It's great, but Marth outranged Shiek in Melee and she has advantage over him.

There is more to a match up then range.

Marth's ground game is fearsome despite his reduced range. His up b can kill, has crazy priority and is invincible the first 5 frames.

Dancing Blade comes out super fast. I'm thinking 3 or 4 frames. Maybe less. Marth can kill with the last up b hit of it around 160-170 ish.

D-tilt is still fast and comboes into itself and has IASA frames on it. This makes it virtually impossible to punish.

All of Marth's smashes can kill well and at pretty early percents.

Range matters most when your opponent is slow with low mobility,

Marth is fast. Very fast.

8th fastest runner in Brawl and by one of the fastest attackers.

If a character has the speed to deal with being outranged then range has less of an impact.

But it is still good for Samus that has that range. I won't down play that fact.

But d-tilt doesn't completely shut Marth dwon simply because it outranges him.

All it means is that Marth can't play a range game.

But since when he able to do that vs Samus anyway?

She had projectiles in Melee and her f-tilt had great range too. It wasn't Marth's range that gave him advantage vs Samus, it was his combos for the most part and the fact that he took care of missiles with ease.

So don't overhype range unless it's vs a slow opponent. A faster character has the tools to deal with range,

alchfilosofer · Mar 1, 2008

a quick question, do Samus zair can hit an crouching Marth? + the fact dtilt moves marth foward and it's easy to use counter if you're in crouch stance and an c stick Fsmash/Usmash/Dsmash can be done in crouch stance, i suppose crouch is the better way to stay safe from short hops zair or any zair (at least for Marth), but crouch only works on ground, and i suppose the better way to stay safe in the air are counters...

Gum · Mar 1, 2008

Irow said:
Ban FD when you enter the Match.

We would most likely need platforms to abuse. Especially since Marth has a great deal more mobility than Samus. As long as you get in their face quick, Samus can't do much. If they start camping with Missiles on FD, we should just camp with edgehop, causing Samus to get closer. It'll be easier that way.

And this is your fatal mistake. If you just go for it, and get in samus' face, you will get punished. This time around, she has a much better close range game simply do to the fact that most of her attacks have zero lag and come out quick. the problem that you have as marth is that YOU will be the one getting baiting, not samus. she doesnt need to do anything but make you come in close. in melee it was different because samus had ****ty priority, but in brawl samus has the advantage when coming from below, and from the front actually, since she can DI back from her fair and basically leave behind a trail of hitboxes for you to run into.

And in terms of her dtilts range; the reason this is a strength is becuase it now kills. it can kill marth as low as 125% meaning that 2 or 3 decent combos plus that = death. its gets past his sword dance as well. the range thing just means that it is really easy to hit with. a kill move that is easy to hit with is a great strength indeed.

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

Gum: Stay on topic. This is about ways for Marth players to deal with Zair pretty much.

Not why you think Samus wtfomghax ***** Marth which is kinda the vibe I'm getting from your post.

Hylian · Mar 1, 2008

Also, Gum is generally wrong.

Samus had amazing priority in Melee. And I disagree with a lot of things Gum is saying.

On another note, Watching my videos while editing them, I have noticed that samus's full length zair is as long or longer then the space in between the two platforms on Pokemon Stadium 1.

Holy crap. Samus can land a zair, and then jump and zair again before any character save sonic can cross that distance.

Still editing these videos.

Gum · Mar 1, 2008

Emblem Lord said:
Gum: Stay on topic. This is about ways for Marth players to deal with Zair pretty much.

Not why you think Samus wtfomghax ***** Marth which is kinda the vibe I'm getting from your post.

I realize that. im simply offering food for thought. im presenting you with different elements that you as a marth player will have to think about, because in fact, zair itself is NOT the main threat. that is a disillusion. its the fact that it has very practical usage that incorporates and can be incorporated in all her other moves.

Hylian, I mean that in terms of going agianst Marth. His priortiy obviousley out shined hers. in brawl however, this part of her dynamic has recieved a boost, so she is not as vulnerable.

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

Hylian I could tell Zair's full length from one vid lol.

But yeah.

For all Samus players, I know you guys are hyped that Samus does well vs Marth cuz of this, but don't sleep on Marth either. He is still a beast.

But at the same time he is the least of your worries in Brawl, BELIEVE ME!

*Looks over at Toon Link and Olimar and trembles in fear.

Hylian · Mar 1, 2008

Emblem Lord said:
Hylian I could tell Zair's full length from one vid lol.

But yeah.

For all Samus players, I know you guys are hyped that Samus does well vs Marth cuz of this, but don't sleep on Marth either. He is still a beast.

But at the same time he is the least of your worries in Brawl, BELIEVE ME!

*Looks over at Toon Link and Olimar and trembles in fear.

Actually, I find Samus vs Olimar to be a very easy match-up >_>. All my other characters do horrible vs olimar though.

Gum · Mar 1, 2008

in general, marth is still a beast, of course. what many dont realize is that she is a mystifying character. she holds a lot of hidden strengths that will, believe it or not, decieve a lot of marth players. in retrospect, i think it will all come down to mindgames, and not really to their specific moves, because both have some pretty impressive manuevers in brawl.

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

*Shrugs

But anyway, I said that before Gum.

The Zair augments her abilities and gives her more mix-ups in terms of space control.

But the Zair is the main key IMO.

Gum · Mar 1, 2008

call me crazy but i actually feel like her homing missiles are her main key. i have my logic about this worked out, and i tested it out in game. in fact, i feel like her zair is secondary to her homing missiles, in terms of working with each other. zair is definately going to be vital, but short hop HM's THEN zair seems to be really effective.

Hylian · Mar 1, 2008

Before I found the zair, I was but a lost sheep wandering down the darkened chaos fearful of the brawl at neigh.

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

Uh huh.

Gonna be done with those vids anytime soon?

Gum · Mar 1, 2008

wow...sounds profound. im sure you know what im talking about now though. in firing HM's first, then zairing, you either hit them, thusly making them more susceptible to the HM's, or they have to stop almost everything they are doing to avoid everything. HM then zair means they have more thingz to deal with at one time.

Miggz · Mar 1, 2008

Hmm. How about the dash-cancel shield technique? You know like dash forward...shield...then pray you don't get hit by another attack after the zair. Also, wouldn't the dash canceled d-tilts be a good approach for this kind of problem? I have yet to play the game, so I'm praying these two key methods are working fine. XD

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

Hmmm.

Well for that I'm thinking jump to insta airdodge, but space it so you don't land right next to Samus so she can't punish with an up b or close range move.

Or dash and shield both the missile and the Zair and then go from there.

I would go with the latter. I like to play it safe.

Most likely after shielding I would just wait and not approach.

Miggz: Both Samus and Marth have alot of options to deal with different things. No one method will completely stop the other character.

You have to mix it up.

I just thought of something. If Samus does SH HM then the missile will be high.

If Marth is close enough then he can just dash in and SH fair.

He could probably hit Samus before Zair even comes out.

So if Marth is close Samus most likely won't try for a SH HM if she knows Marth can just rush her down.

Miggz · Mar 1, 2008

*nods* Indeed. It would be best to wait a split second for a reaction of some sort from the Samus. Hmm, this is a troublesome move. Even approaching with empty short hops sounds way too risky. There has to be another method.

W.Jr · Mar 1, 2008

good matches

Irae · Mar 1, 2008

Why not just camp it if on a less-than-preferable stage?
I mean, her projectiles are so slow... Camp, and force her to come to you. When she does, sh-fair after her grapple comes out, right before she hits the ground. Tip it, and follow with a dash grab or 2nd sh-fair.

Anticipation and mindgames will be the key to beating it.

Emblem Lord · Mar 1, 2008

I mean...if Marth is ahead or they are even he can camp.

But if he isn't ahead then he can't.

And that's when this discussion thread comes in handy.

Hylian · Mar 2, 2008

I started uploading 74 new videos >_>.

Emblem Lord · Mar 2, 2008

Won't that take like...a day or something?

Vaxxaruis · Mar 2, 2008

When i was watching a video of samus when she missed her grab she had huge lag Couldnt u just punish her garb lag when she try to SH zair to grab like Block zair and stay out of the range of grab? then punish her for it just a though i too will be maining marth so i dont want no kick *** char to pwn marth every time T_T lol i hope we find a Solution.

Emblem Lord · Mar 2, 2008

I'm pretty sure her Zair range is about twice as long as the grab range for Samus.

So yes, that would work.

Actually I said the same thing on the second page I think. lol.

Vaxxaruis · Mar 2, 2008

ha great minds think alike i guess ok so that one way to punish her i am looking for more i wish his videos whould get up so i can watch them (sad face) lol

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