SynikaL's Brawl Impressions: "When Hearts Cry" Edition

It is impossible for me to pass many absolute judgments regarding the game without extended time alone with it (which will likely happen today). The only judgment I'm 100% confident in, is Brawl's level of depth in comparison to Melee's, which I'll get to in a bit. This is the ONLY judgment I'm passing on the game in relation to Melee.

The recent videos of the game created a VERY open mind for me and I was genuinely excited to experience this game. I went in 100% ready to move on from Melee. "This game is SO different" I thought, so this created a new and exciting sensation of mystery and infinite possibilities only a new fighting game could conjure. In the face of people texting me constantly on my cell the past 2-3 days otherwise, I just knew they had not spent enough time with the game, or just sucked at it.

I had so much **** that I wanted to play around with regarding the new system, that I couldn't wait to play the game -- <--- this is were my problem lies with Brawl.

In almost every facet of the game's design, Brawl is limiting. Sakurai clearly had the intentions of making sure this game does not stray too far from his overall vision (whatever that is).

No Wavedashing is fine -- not even Melee truly needed it. I even convinced myself that L-Cancel wouldn't be necessary, because I felt the game play changes would expand Brawl to new horizons that made it unnecessary. In my 6 hours of playing (and everyone elses 2-3 days of playing), the game makes it clear there are new horizons -- just that every one of them seems to be a 5 minute stroll from the epicenter.

Brawls design philosophy is the culprit. As stated, Brawl's game play mechanics are clearly and INTENTIONALLY limiting.


-You've heard this already, but there are very few real follow ups, setups or combos. No one has figured out a consistent 2 piece outside canned strings.

Falcon's Forward B is a good example: WHY does this move exist if following up with ANYTHING is impossible? You maybe get an Up Air at 0-10%. After that, your opponent is knocked so far that you can't even consider yourself on the offensive anymore, you're practically neutral with your opponent. It's a lunging launcher with no real purpose at this point. Same deal with ALL his throws.

-Very BASIC game play mechanics are either nerfed or GONE:

Light Shield/Analog Shield Physics: GONE

Power Shield: Seemingly GONE. If you timed your Shield presses correctly, you would get a new sound effect but no Parry or Projectile reflections (no game play effect). Maybe it changed somehow, but in the 2-3 days of my friends playing, no one has witnessed PS in effect. If an overpowered projectile develops you're ****ed.

Ledge Cancel: Obviously still in, but very limiting. You only can cancel with back/down on the Control Stick (so far), so doing attacks from the ledge is very hard. Furthermore, you have to wait 1/2 a second before letting go of the ledge meaning: no invincibility off the ledge or very few frames, if any.

Crouch Cancel: GONE.

DashDance: No mind game potential, so it's useless as you either have to do it REALLY fast (tiny direction changes) or VERY slowly over longer distances. The only consistent spacing tool right now is walking. Ground game felt hopeless in Brawl, but not just because of this. More on that later.

Applying Fox Trotting to other forms of movement seems less viable than I thought, but it just might require a **** ton of practice.

Different Falling Speeds: GONE. Everyone has a homogenized falling speed, meaning that the meta game inherently suffers.


-The alleged aerial game expansion remarks made by Sakurai at this point seem silly. There is little to nothing at this point that shows the general game play has gone more aerial (outside the characters that can fly/glide or jump multiple times). If anything, it's the opposite. I don't need to mention the obvious extraction of L-Cancel. The new Air Dodge does little to expand things at this point. It's a very long animation and after the second AD without touching the ground, you plummet downwards. You still suffer considerable lag after air dodging, so the only reason I can see Sak allowing multiple ADs at this point, is to allow one to come back to the stage after ADing off accidentally.

*edit*


Bolded portion is false. Only the apex of a jump or afterwards does one glide downwards from an AirDodge.


-This game was made to be played with items. I believe this whole heartedly. The only character that could kill before 100% consistently was Ike, so he won most of the matches. Killing off the sides for most characters doesn't happen until closer to 200%. Characters are so floaty, they often make it back to the stage without using their second or third jumps, they simply Air Control towards the stage -- often even after being intercepted by an offstage attack. Brawl tournaments will never finish within a reasonable time frame at this pace. This game was not meant to be competitive.

-Attempting Edge Guards at this point feels pointless with the auto sweet spot feature. This is why in vids, players seem so illogical when trying to edge guard. A character can sweet spot FROM ALMOST 2 CHARACTER LENGTHS AWAY.

In one situation, I was playing a timed Stock match, Ike vs. Fox. After going up one stock, I started ******* around and started dropping beneath the stage and regrabbing the ledge with his Up B. Fox could do nothing. Not only was it hard to attack me because of the Auto Sweet spot, he couldn't Shine because of the Super Armor present all throughout Ike's Up B. I got the time down to 20 seconds before I accidentally killed myself.

-This was my the strangest problem with this game. The game, amazingly, seems to have control issues. I don't know if it's just the nature of the new system and there's a mechanic we're not aware of, flirting with us, so I can't say for sure -- but everyone found themselves turning the opposite direction or jumping randomly when generally playing. It was quite annoying, the controls just don't feel very tight. This may be us just not being very good yet, but it's something that I don't remember experiencing in the previous games. It happened most after landing an aerial or trying to DashDance and was completely ****ing over the ground game.

If you pay attention to the vids, you can actually see other players having the same problem. Like I said, it's probably some mechanic no one's pegged yet, but it really got in the way of things. The seemingly random Tripping mechanic really didn't help things either.

The philosophy governing the development of this game is clear to me: this is a party game with fighting game aesthetics. Glitches and techniques will likely develop (like any other type of game) but they'll all exist within a paradigm of severe restrictions.

This game reminds me so much of the transition from Halo1 to Halo 2, but just way more drastic. I predict high level play in the future will consist mostly of glitches that don't completely break the general game play (just like Halo 2). New school players will stick with it, old school players will likely opt out (such as myself).

I'll gladly eat these words with a healthy seasoning of dead particles from the hairy ****** of an AIDS infested concubine if I turn out to be totally wrong in the future.

I'll let you guys know when I get the game later.


-Kimosabae

By not killing until closer to 100%, I would say that he increased character lifetime and decreased game speed, that's all. It doesn't mean that it's broken or anything, just different.

Power Shielding is all but confirmed gone. If you're going to reflect projectiles you're going to have to be a character with a move to reflect projectiles, rather than just have everybody do it. You can say this decreases options, someone else can this increases character individuality.

The whole higher percentage to kill thing is a recurring facet which can be explained away as new game physics. You want it to be as fast as Melee, but they changed things up like giving the characters more noticeably defined kill ranges. Also, a lot of characters have 100%-120% kill moves, at the very least, so I could argue this is because you're still new (stupid, I know). Just, please watch some of these vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/WifiWarsVideos

I've given into the fact that a lot of the handy Melee AT's are gone, in fact, it doesn't bother me at all.

I hate watching matches that have characters going to 150% every stock though

I like the analysis, but I can't make any fair judgments until I play the game (which could be today). I agree with you though, that Sakurai definitely wanted to put focus on items, and the long stocks help to show that. It should be said though that almost all characters have at least one decent kill move. Snakes fsmash is a ******* to hit with, but I've seen it kill at 105%

I like what OoNoiRoO and dmbrandon are doing too, maybe they are the start to the Brawl competitive niche.

lol brawl sux. I CALLED IT!

And for the record, I think Sakurai intended Melee's depth -- his philosophy regarding video games simply changed between the interval. Brawl is a reflection of his new philosophies. He even mentions this in the "Iwata Asks" interview. I truly believe when he created Melee, he wanted the game to hold up to any traditional fighter, despite the game being easy to pick up.


-Syn

I think you blew everything up and out of proportion. Looking back on early MElee videos, I would have thought "is this really Melee"? Same for Smash 64. They were so slow and oher things it somewhat shocked me.

Please STOP all of this until the game is out after AT LEAST a year or two.

seems like other people have adapted to the gameplay amd are having fun with it. Ur problem might be u were expecting melee, and uve let it spoil u. Its hard to see the depth because the game is new, if u dont like it then dont play it. i hope u will in time enjoy the game for what it is...
i cant really put up much of an argument cuz i havent played it, but i am sure there are people who could give u a good argument.

In almost every facet of the game's design, Brawl is limiting. Sakurai clearly had the intentions of making sure this game does not stray too far from his overall vision (whatever that is).

No Wavedashing is fine -- not even Melee truly needed it. I even convinced myself that L-Cancel wouldn't be necessary, because I felt the game play changes would expand Brawl to new horizons that made it unnecessary. In my 6 hours of playing (and everyone elses 2-3 days of playing), the game makes it clear there are new horizons -- just that every one of them seems to be a 5 minute stroll from the epicenter.

Brawls design philosophy is the culprit. As stated, Brawl's game play mechanics are clearly and INTENTIONALLY limiting.

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Oh shut up. The game works just fine. Has shields, smash, strong, regular, special attacks, final smash, guarding, dodging, it's a FUNCTIONAL smash game. Just because Sakurai took out cheap glitches and exploits that so-called "pro" players used to take advantage of the game, does NOT mean the game doesn't work. Get over it. Brawl is not Melee. It's not limiting, he just didn't want the elitist glitch-exploiters to have an advantage over other players simply because of some unintended gameplay functions.

You CAN chain combos. Check out the Israeli videos. Pro players can STILL have a good 1 on 1 match, and there will STILL clearly be a winner.

Different Falling Speeds: GONE.

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This is what he meant by balancing gameplay speeds. Some characters like Pichu and Sheik would just fall like a lead block, and some would remain floaty and unresponsive to gravity. Lol.

And for the record, I think Sakurai intended Melee's depth

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I doubt he knew the success it would have, and the various extreme tournaments that would come from it. I doubt he intended those glitches, otherwise they wouldn't be glitches, they would be promoted and taught gameplay mechanics in the game. Melee has a lot of depth because players discovered it over the years, the same will happen with Brawl.

If you're a newer player:

MAKE SURE YOU READ AND COMPREHEND MY POSTS BEFORE YOU RESPOND TO ME.

I swear to God I will place each and everyone of you on ignore.


-Kimosabae

tbh its this whole "wii thing". Families, old people and newcomers are the first priority, and since the wii sold so well, they're gunna stick with it. After all its getting them the money isnt it ?

The complete disappearance of edge guarding is pretty ridiculous, for a lot of reasons-- stupidly effective DI, ridiculous floatiness, and worst of all the auto sweetspot. Seriously, I was watching a Falco v. Snake video. Falco fsmashes Snake off the ledge and races to edgeguard. Hops to the ledge, jumps to intercept the returning Snake with one bair, jumps, a second bair, back to the ledge. Snake is barely knocked back at all. Falco continues his bair assault from the ledge. In the end, he lands at least 6-7 bairs on another character, who is off the f'ing ledge at over 100%, and Snake still makes an easy, sloppy recovery. It seems that, AT BEST, you can use your "edgeguard" opportunity to rack up a little damage while they're trying to recover. 9/10 of the KO's I've seen in matches have been from a high knockback move in the middle of the stage. Is edgeguarding dead?

The autosweetspot is even worse. Seems completely broken to me. Seems a lot of characters can just drop down and use their up B to snap back up to the edge, repeatedly and perfectly without any effort at all. I've also yet to see a move that can intercept a character when they're anywhere even close to the edge. Broken. Even if you ban edge stalls or something, it still hurts the depth of the game a lot. If an unskilled player can recover every time in their sleep, and a skilled player can do nothing about it... well, that's what I'd call shallowness, not depth.

Hmmm.

SynikaL said:

If you're a newer player:

MAKE SURE YOU READ AND COMPREHEND MY POSTS BEFORE YOU RESPOND TO ME.

I swear to God I will place each and everyone of you on ignore.


-Kimosabae

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So what was the point of making this thread if you're going to ignore us all?

I am NOT new, by the way. I've been playing since Smash 64.

MAKE SURE YOU READ AND COMPREHEND MY POSTS BEFORE YOU RESPOND TO ME.

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I did. You're complaining about Melee mechanics not being in Brawl.
Go play Melee then.

I swear to God I will place each and everyone of you on ignore.

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Do it. If you're too ignorant to stand people who oppose you then do it.

The complete disappearance of edge guarding is pretty ridiculous, for a lot of reasons-- stupidly effective DI, ridiculous floatiness, and worst of all the auto sweetspot. Seriously, I was watching a Falco v. Snake video. Falco fsmashes Snake off the ledge and races to edgeguard. Hops to the ledge, jumps to intercept the returning Snake with one bair, jumps, a second bair, back to the ledge. Snake is barely knocked back at all. Falco continues his bair assault from the ledge. In the end, he lands at least 6-7 bairs on another character, who is off the f'ing ledge at over 100%, and Snake still makes an easy, sloppy recovery. It seems that, AT BEST, you can use your "edgeguard" opportunity to rack up a little damage while they're trying to recover. 9/10 of the KO's I've seen in matches have been from a high knockback move in the middle of the stage. Is edgeguarding dead?

Hmmm.

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You realize the average joe with a life doesn't care about this. They're going to buy Brawl, enjoy it, and not notice much of a difference other than improvement. They're going to enjoy it as a multi-player experience like it was meant to be, not a ninja duel. They're not going to care about all these technical insignificance that didn't make it into the game. They're still going to have fun. "What the hell is wavedashing?"

Wow, what I expected all along. Not surprising that brawl sucks. At least Zeus put hope in Pandora's box, along with all of the sufferings. Sakurai just left us the sufferings and also took a dump in the box and called it brawl.

Sliq said:

Wow, what I expected all along. Not surprising that brawl sucks. At least Zeus put hope in Pandora's box, along with all of the sufferings. Sakurai just left us the sufferings and also took a dump in the box and called it brawl.

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Shut it. Buy the game and THEN judge it. If you want to play Melee, then GO PLAY MELEE!

WHY are people seemingly complaining that this is not MElee 2.0? We knew this since E for All, and even some time before then. Why are people complaining now I do not know. It's probably because they have noting to do or are really that bored/stupid/trolling.

i have to agree with the floatiness of the game. its does balance the gameplay out. fox and falco were broken because of the automatic fastfalls they had. having them floaty does even out the gameplay and the gameplay is till intense based on some vids i saw. at least sakurai fixed this problem from melee.

Along with increased life span being a new inherent mechanic, I also believe that the higher focus on aerial game will come from recovery battles, not air to ground attacks. I mean, air battles would mean both people in the air, not shuffling a grounded opponent, right?

It looks like if you want quick kills and aren't a power character, air to air combat away from the platform is the way to go.

As for the Ike on the edge thing, shouldn't have there been a point the Fox player could have attacked, right when you let go of the platform? You did say there's no invincibility coming off of the platform. The timing would have to be tight, but it does sound possible, and you could always recover if it's so easy to do. If it becomes a problem, we'll get around it like we did with Hyrule Temple.

Anyway, rather than edge guarding, jump off the platform and continue the attack. Also, if you're anything like me, and many other players, it takes time to learn new move links with new game physics.

Edit: Concerning the match with Falco, you can say Falco's back air is no longer a kill move. Should have tried to connect his down air.

http://www.stage6.com/user/crystal107/video/2181361/
http://www.stage6.com/user/crystal107/video/2182115/

Intense Brawl matches by pros.

Honestly, do you guys seriously think that because Brawl lacks these mechanics, 1 on 1 fights are going to be pointless and no fun and require no skill or something?

Just get used to the way it handles.

Dogenzaka said:

You realize the average joe with a life doesn't care about this. They're going to buy Brawl, enjoy it, and not notice much of a difference other than improvement. They're going to enjoy it as a multi-player experience like it was meant to be, not a ninja duel. They're not going to care about all these technical insignificance that didn't make it into the game. They're still going to have fun. "What the hell is wavedashing?"

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Good god, "with a life"? Was that an attempt at an insult? Go away.

Why the hell are people like this on Smashboards? What are they here to discuss? Costume color changes and taunts? Are they just here to have some fun annoying the rest of us with their ignorance of what makes Smash competitive and, in turn, FUN for the people who play that way?

Seriously. Explain it to me. This thread isn't for you. Why don't you go to a chess forum, or a poker forum, or a tennis forum, and tell those people to "get a life" and stop having fun with the game they love.

SynikaL said:

If you're a newer player:

MAKE SURE YOU READ AND COMPREHEND MY POSTS BEFORE YOU RESPOND TO ME.

I swear to God I will place each and everyone of you on ignore.


-Kimosabae

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im preety sure everyone is a newer player, this is a new game after all. That seems to be ur problem u want ur meele skills to carry over and theyre not...... sakuri is just making video games i really doubt he has the competive player in mind, the players turned melee into what it was, this game isnt just going magicly be the same, were going to have to work at it

Nice to see the exact same idea I get of this game in the first post. I guess I really need to play it too see for my self but I've talked to so many tourney players in my country and all say the same thing :S.

Too anyone saying melee didn't look appealing when it got out shut UP!!. Look at those matches in the beginning and it looks a lot better then what we see from brawl now. Melee had instant appeal from the day it got there. You would expect brawl to build on it not give you such a hard time trying to figure out why they changed it. I can completely understand sakurai. It's a typical approach to take especially for Nintendo and if you want newbies to have fun as well you take this. There's just so many other ways he could have done it and it's just too bad it turns out this way for the ones trying to really make this into a competitive sport . I can't remember for how long we have been trying to rid melee of it's party game image and then to see brawl so hardly enforce it is hard to accept .

looks fine to me

There's just so many other ways he could have done it

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Like?
Like making wavedashing an automatic and intended gameplay mechanic or what? Because that's essentially the same as taking it out altogether.

Good god, "with a life"? Was that an attempt at an insult? Go away.

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Was I even talking to you?

I simply said the average joe with a busy life that doesn't spend their whole time on the internet on forums or training in a video game, doesn't care about these missing exploits, let alone has heard about them, and if you try to explain it to them, they won't care.

Therefore, it is you, the minority, that cares about this.
But the majority of people, won't.
They just know it's a new Smash game and it will be fun.

Why the hell are people like this on Smashboards? What are they here to discuss?

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I'm here to casually discuss Brawl. Why?
If I liked Melee so much I wouldn't be on a Brawl board.

Are they just here to have some fun annoying the rest of us with their ignorance of what makes Smash competitive and, in turn, FUN for the people who play that way?

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Seems to me the competitive players are sad that the exploits they trained so hard and wasted their life working for don't apply in Brawl.

Why don't you go to a chess forum, or a poker forum, or a tennis forum, and tell those people to "get a life" and stop having fun with the game they love.

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I don't like either of those, one is a sport, and what's wrong with chess and poker? Nothing's wrong with them. Or Brawl.

Dogenzaka said:

Seems to me the competitive players are sad that the exploits they trained so hard and wasted their life working for don't apply in Brawl.

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Wasted their life working for? Seriously?

Ryuker said:

Nice to see the exact same idea I get of this game in the first post. I guess I really need to play it too see for my self but I've talked to so many tourney players in my country and all say the same thing :S.

Too anyone saying melee didn't look appealing when it got out shut UP!!. Look at those matches in the beginning and it looks a lot better then what we see from brawl now. Melee had instant appeal from the day it got there. You would expect brawl to build on it not give you such a hard time trying to figure out why they changed it. I can completely understand sakurai. It's a typical approach to take especially for Nintendo and if you want newbies to have fun as well you take this. There's just so many other ways he could have done it and it's just too bad it turns out this way for the ones trying to really make this into a competitive sport . I can't remember for how long we have been trying to rid melee of it's party game image and then to see brawl so hardly enforce it is hard to accept .

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Going from faster to slower will always be a lot more awkward in my opinion. You're saying Melee had instant appeal to you when it got here. Brawl doesn't. Melee had instant appeal for me then, and Brawl continues that for me now. And how can you completely understand Sakurai when he was the lead developer/designer, the guy who had everything down to the physics in his mind's eye from the beginning, more or less, as said in the Iwata interviews. Heck, he didn't even have a Nintendo developing team for this game. Are you sure you understand him now?

And what? We have image problems? People are going to call us nerds and geeks anyway, but we just shrug it off. People are going to call Smash a fighting game, but we can just shrug it off and show them that a party game is only one side of it.

Dogenzaka said:

Oh shut up. The game works just fine. Has shields, smash, strong, regular, special attacks, final smash, guarding, dodging, it's a FUNCTIONAL smash game. Just because Sakurai took out cheap glitches and exploits that so-called "pro" players used to take advantage of the game, does NOT mean the game doesn't work. Get over it. Brawl is not Melee. It's not limiting, he just didn't want the elitist glitch-exploiters to have an advantage over other players simply because of some unintended gameplay functions.

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Dash dancing; not a glitch. Fast falling; not a glitch. Power shielding; not a glitch. Light shielding; not a glitch. L-Canceling; not a glitch.

The only "glitch" they removed was wavedashing, which wasn't a glitch so much as an exploit, but semantics don't matter. He removed legitimate gameplay mechanics for seemingly no reason (how the **** is light shielding broken?) other than so bad people can compete with good people, a notion which in and of itself is ridiculous.

Dogenzaka said:

You CAN chain combos. Check out the Israeli videos. Pro players can STILL have a good 1 on 1 match, and there will STILL clearly be a winner.

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Links?

Dogenzaka said:

This is what he meant by balancing gameplay speeds. Some characters like Pichu and Sheik would just fall like a lead block, and some would remain floaty and unresponsive to gravity. Lol.

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You have no idea what you are talking about.

Dogenzaka said:

I doubt he knew the success it would have, and the various extreme tournaments that would come from it. I doubt he intended those glitches, otherwise they wouldn't be glitches, they would be promoted and taught gameplay mechanics in the game. Melee has a lot of depth because players discovered it over the years, the same will happen with Brawl.

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If only there was like a community that supported and taught these "glitches." Oh wait, that's THIS ****ING WEBSITE YOU *******.

Also, l-canceling is in the Nintendo Power Official Player's guide, so kill yourself.

Demon Kirby said:

Shut it. Buy the game and THEN judge it. If you want to play Melee, then GO PLAY MELEE!

WHY are people seemingly complaining that this is not MElee 2.0? We knew this since E for All, and even some time before then. Why are people complaining now I do not know. It's probably because they have noting to do or are really that bored/stupid/trolling.

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Dear moron, I not only watched other people play Brawl at Pound 3 (huge tournament that happened this past weekend) but I also played it myself, so eat a cock.

retro gamer 6 said:

i have to agree with the floatiness of the game. its does balance the gameplay out. fox and falco were broken because of the automatic fastfalls they had. having them floaty does even out the gameplay and the gameplay is till intense based on some vids i saw. at least sakurai fixed this problem from melee.

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Automatic fastfalls? You are ********. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Did you also know that the faster you fall, the more hitstun you have? I bet you ****ing didn't, which completely balances out their fall speed. Of course, you'd rather post your ignorant "opinion" about **** you have no idea what you are talking about as opposed to shutting your mouth and lurking moar.

I know this may sound obvious, but I believe Brawl is more fun focused than skill. Though that doesn't mean there is no skill involved. Remember, it's fun focused, but it has skill in there somewhere

Anyone's who's made any mention of me "Wanting this game to be Melee" is currently on my ignore list. Just so some of you don't waste your time. No one wants Brawl to be a different game more than I do -- I just don't want the arbitrary cap on game play possibilities Melee didn't have.

Ha ha. I was so blindly optimistic going in after watching recent vids, everyone was laughing at me towards the end of the night when I finally admitted I hated the game.


-SynikaL

Why are some people so mad about it? It's Brawl, not Melee 2.0. All we have to do is adapt to the brawl style and we'll be playing competetively in no time. At least the characters are alot more balanced. That's a good thing. We now don't have use the same 5 or 6 characters and then forget the rest. We'll get used to it. Don't worry.

No offence but...

It's threads like these that instantly kill my hype and make me go all depressed.

Surely Smash can't have been reduced to this. I mean, it's fit for pros and casuals right?

Someone please reassure me. I would be most grateful.

I know this may sound obvious, but I believe Brawl is more fun focused than skill. Though that doesn't mean there is no skill involved. Remember, it's fun focused, but it has skill in there somewhere

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Yeah but I thought the point of a video game was fun?

Anyone's who's made any mention of me "Wanting this game to be Melee" is currently on my ignore list. Just so some of you don't waste your time. No one wants Brawl to be a different game more than I do -- I just don't want the arbitrary cap on game play possibilities Melee didn't have.

Ha ha. I was so blindly optimistic going in after watching recent vids, everyone was laughing at me towards the end of the night when I finally admitted I hated the game.

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Have fun being ignorant.

Surely Smash can't have been reduced to this. I mean, it's fit for pros and casuals right?

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It didn't bring pros down to the level of casuals. Pros will STILL win a Smash game, like it or not. The game is still based on skill and intelligence, when it comes to duals. Taking out glitch exploits won't hurt that. The game BALANCED out what Melee didn't. Trust me, if you're a Smash fan, you'll still love the game.

However, if you just play and want the game so you can have 1 on 1 duals with no items, final destination and give absolutely no care to any other part of the game, then that's just a pity. Brawl didn't focus on that this time around. Doesn't mean that essence of the game doesn't function, it just means that the game focused on multiplayer-madness-and-fun more as a selling point.

SynikaL said:

The only judgment I'm 100% confident in, is Brawl's level of depth in comparison to Melee's, which I'll get to in a bit. This is the ONLY judgment I'm passing on the game in relation to Melee.

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Seriously? You're really confident that you understand Brawl's depth after less than a week? You're 100% certain? You've tried out every character, every stage, found every technique, incorporated every technique into your game, and found Brawl to be shallow?

Wow. That's impressive.

(I understand that what you posted implies Brawl may have less depth than Melee. But fighting games require a hell of a lot more time than a week before you can make an accurate claim of the game's depth.)

there are people people having fun with the game, this guy is just in denial, hes mad because the game isnt what he expected or wanted... he even says that all of his friends dont like it, hes not even giving the game a chance.... dont listen too him, wait and play the game for urself

This thread is full of win.

The whole "combos are hard to or almost impossible to do" thing is very disappointing. The only one I've seen is Kirby's Dthrow to up tilt.

Hopefully Brawl will be highly competitive and I still have hope that Sakurai hid some "advanced" stuff to be found in the future.

BUT I STILL HAVE TO WAIT A ****ING MONTH

I'm just so amazed by how much Brawl changed up everything. Edge guarding is different now. What we did before was developed for Melee. Shffling and other short hop type maneuvers are different now. What we did before was developed for Melee. Lag is different now. What we did to deal with lag before was developed for Melee.

So many things are different, and I've come to understand this, but people are still doing stuff that was specifically designed and practiced in the Smash community as techniques and counters to things that happened in Melee. Can anyone help me with this?

Gavisi said:

(I understand that what you posted implies Brawl may have less depth than Melee. But fighting games require a hell of a lot more time than a week before you can make an accurate claim of the game's depth.)

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But I never claimed it was an accurate assessment, I simply stated that I'm 100% confident in my belief system. Yes, I openly stated this is a very much prejudice opinion of the game. I also, stated that I'd eat an Aids infested v@gina if I somehow turned out to wrong. What more do you want from me?


-Kimosabae

Also, l-canceling is in the Nintendo Power Official Player's guide, so kill yourself.

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You seem to be unaware that Nintendo Power is not a Nintendo-made magazine, it's a fan-made publication. So Nintendo Power mentioning it is about as significant as IGN talking about it

It didn't bring pros down to the level of casuals. Pros will STILL win a Smash game, like it or not. The game is still based on skill and intelligence, when it comes to duals. Taking out glitch exploits won't hurt that. The game BALANCED out what Melee didn't. Trust me, if you're a Smash fan, you'll still love the game

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Pro's may still win but they won't like it as much as winning in melee.

Going from faster to slower will always be a lot more awkward in my opinion. You're saying Melee had instant appeal to you when it got here. Brawl doesn't. Melee had instant appeal for me then, and Brawl continues that for me now. And how can you completely understand Sakurai when he was the lead developer/designer, the guy who had everything down to the physics in his mind's eye from the beginning, more or less, as said in the Iwata interviews. Heck, he didn't even have a Nintendo developing team for this game. Are you sure you understand him now?

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Yes. If you read his interview. Follow the dojo. See the footage of this game, read the impressions and understand nintendo's new philosophy than it's pretty **** apparent. Besides that I follow a gamedesign education my self and you have to understand these things to do any good over there. I just think it's the worst way you can approach the problem for a competitive point of view. It is the perfect way for a party game point of view since battles will be very very hecktick with all the random crap happening.

Besided that it becomes very apparent in the level design which have all kind of aditions that will interrupt the gameplay in a unpredictable way. Adding random stuff is a common way to balance games and it seem they took the same approach here. There is a reason why boardgames have a die for example just as they added this kind of stuff to brawl.

Like synikal I really hope we are wrong about this though but the movement as I see it now seems very anoying and sluggish.

(I understand that what you posted implies Brawl may have less depth than Melee. But fighting games require a hell of a lot more time than a week before you can make an accurate claim of the game's depth.)

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Basic control should be fluid from the get go. Melee ran way more smoother than ssb64 for example and that was one of the wow feelings i got from the game besides the new characters and all the new additions. It just felt like a giant step up. There is only so much you can alter with new discoveries. If a character just sluggishly stops than that is how that char is gonna stop. You can't alter a characters move. if the speed of the move is slow or the knockback is weird than that is just what you have to deal with. You might find a way to act fast after it but if it just takes a long time to come out that that is that.