Prepare yourself for a new character, Melee IC mains

Even if Ic remains EXACTLY the same(moveset-wise) in the transition from melee to Brawl, we're going to have to play them VERY differently from the way we currently play them. Check this out..

1. No chaingrabs. The new physics engine wouldn't allow it seeing as everyone's so **** floaty and smash DI is MUCH easier. Dthrow Dair will only become a viable setup for a smash. You know what that means? The only thing I see still being viable is D/Fthrow Fairspike regrab at low percentages and Dthrow Nanagrab. Wobbling's probably been erased completely.

2. More intelligent use of desynchs. I see Desynch combos becoming our main way of dealing damage, which is good, because honestly, that's how I think IC should be played anyways. I tried to mold my style around this, with little success, lol but it feels good to 0-edgeguard desynch combo someone. Maybe nana's box will be a little larger, meaning more flexibility in the combos. Maybe.

3. NO WAVEDASHING. Yeah, this hits hard, right? Get used to it. Honestly, if we we don't get some kind of buff with this loss, I can see us being low-tier, bottom-tier even. Losing wavedashing takes away ALOT of things. No wavedash mindgames, no wavesmashes/grabs to punish lag. No wavedash approaches. SoPo is basically SCREWED. Yeah, our ground game is ****ED. In addition to our subpar air-game, yeah, things aren't looking good for Nana and Popo. Utilt useless now? KUNFERMD. I'd suggest trying to play sans wavedashing now in order to get used to the feeling. be prepared to lose alot of matches. XD




Don't worry though. Things aren't ALL bad for nana and popo..

1. Auto-speetspotting. We can actually sweetspot now! Whew! Feels good, right? :D
2. New desynchs. The update that confirmed IC already confirmed a new desynch, the footstool desynch. It'll only be a matter of time before we find even more crazy stuff.
3. (Possibly) a better SoNa? Okay, yeah, the running joke among us IC mains is that Nana is too good but we all know the truth. While yes, sometimes she does come through and help us, for the most part, SoNa is useless. She runs into attacks, only jabs and can't even recover! We're not asking for AMAZING AI. Hell, adding Squall hammer to her moveset is an improvement. How about making her a little smart, eh?
4. They're even cuter than before.

LOOK AT THAT! They're so adorable! Let's show them that we're not to be messed with! ^_^


This may seem like a scary post but it's more than likely true. Sooo... whaddaya say? Are you ready to play a different, and possibly much worse, IC? I promise to make them as good as possible. If I can't do that, then I at least promise to contribute something to the community so that others can. I can't leave them now.


ARE YOU READY TO BRAWL?

Oceanlab's "Clear Blue Water" does great things to me. ^_^

Nice thread! I'm thinkin that the IC's might have some new moves since they're the only characters without the special moves update on the Dojo now. Hopefully, a more effective moveset.

good thread, sk8er.

it's going to be really fun to adjust to the new ic's AS LONG AS YOU LOOK AT IT WITH OPTIMISM. a lot of fox players are really depressed at how he has been "nerfed" and such, but you don't see me crying over ic's lack of wavedash.

since melee, ic's have always been a character all about creativity and adaptation, especially since people found new ways to beat their chain grabs and desynchs. they are a great character, but there is a reason they are mid tier. the best way, like chudat has proven many times, is to always adapt using the 2 characters to their fullest, no matter what strategies other people come up with.

i actually really look forward to the new ice climbers, despite how good/bad they will be.


ALSO, the fact that they are cuter than before has had me sold from the start.

I think it's too early to judge the characters, especially when we haven't seen the Ice Climbers in any of the demos so we have to judge things off of the few videos of them and I think that the game is going to be too different to accurately judge veterans from their old movesets and playstyles. Still the lack of wavedashing hurts but I'm sure that we will find plenty of nasty desyncs that will rise in Brawl.

I'm pretty confident that they are going to be worse, simply due to the lack of WD... which basicaly made them a monster in Melee.

But who knows. It'll really come down to if good desync strats are found. If not, they're probably toast.

Then again, the whole game seems slower paced, so maybe the missing WD won't hurt so bad.

S2 is right. I can see the whole "two characters, more possibilities" having a much larger effect in this game than in Melee. Desynching in melee was so risky and illogical in many situations besides grab combos and creativity... but since it will be our main source of skill, I'm sure people will be out there to create MANY new techniques even years after the game comes out.

In melee, new desynch strategies are still being created today.

yea after reading what s2 and chonater said i kind of agree. it is a whole new game and no one else has WD either. though WD was the very important in the success of the ic's this game is slower and they could have buffs in other areas so we should wait to the game comes out and exchange strategies which will be much easier since wifi is added,

all hail the ice climbers...even without Wave Dash

choknater said:

S2 is right. I can see the whole "two characters, more possibilities" having a much larger effect in this game than in Melee. Desynching in melee was so risky and illogical in many situations besides grab combos and creativity... but since it will be our main source of skill, I'm sure people will be out there to create MANY new techniques even years after the game comes out.

In melee, new desynch strategies are still being created today.

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IC will be more technical than ever in Brawl. In Melee, you could possibly get by with grab combos, etc. but in Brawl, we're going to NEED to have our stuff DOWN in order to be competitive. Difference is, whereas most characters were technically dependent on finger-speed. We'll need to expand our minds to the point where we can play them as two different characters. Put in the right hands, we'll be devestating. Can't WAIT to play them.

The lack of wd will be disappointing, but I will take it as a challenge.

Speedsk8er said:

IC will be more technical than ever in Brawl. In Melee, you could possibly get by with grab combos, etc. but in Brawl, we're going to NEED to have our stuff DOWN in order to be competitive. Difference is, whereas most characters were technically dependent on finger-speed. We'll need to expand our minds to the point where we can play them as two different characters. Put in the right hands, we'll be devestating. Can't WAIT to play them.

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couldn't have said it better sk8er

edit: 4500 posts!

Well, don't forget that other characters are going to be hurt by the lack of WD. It'll still be a challenge to go without it, though.

I used the IC's in Melee for four years, so I'm not giving up on them. It should be fun working with them in Brawl!

Ice Climbers are my main, but I never wavedashed once with them. I could never pull off that technique with any character and I'm glad to see it gone.

I've noticed ONE major improvement to the Ice Climbers in videos though. You know how normally only one character can grab a ledge at once? The Ice Climbers are now exempt from this rule. I also noticed that their Belay seemed to behave like a grapple a couple times. I.e., if one climber grabs a ledge during it, the rope will pull in the other climber and they'll both hang together in more ways than one.

I'm also hoping Belay is still one of the best projectile attacks in the game as it was in Melee. Nana could cancel out any attack when thrown.

well, that's a relief that the iceclimbers will both be able to cling onto the edge for life... but definitely the problem now is how to keep them together without wavedashing... If dash cancelling and dash dancing can still be used, the icies will be salvageable ^.^

No gimped recovery = good
No WD = O SHI-

The ICs are going to be quite interesting in Brawl, I for one will be firmly behind the little ****** kids.

I'm gonna stick with em no matter what.

I honestly don't think the ICs will be as nerfed as people seem to think. Plus, barely any of the people who have the game right now are huge IC mainers so we'll REALLy start seeing how good the ICs (as well as the other non-mainstream characters) are when the game is released in the US.

Either way, you're right. We're in for an interesting Brawl (u see wat i did thur?)

there's a vid of ChuDat using ic's in brawl

they look slow in the air, doesn't look too hot

but this is just the beginning... i'm sure we can work something out with ic's.

choknater said:

there's a vid of ChuDat using ic's in brawl

they look slow in the air, doesn't look too hot

but this is just the beginning... i'm sure we can work something out with ic's.

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Link please?

ICs were never big air fighters anyway so I'm not really sure how this would fair.

sfox8 said:

Link please?

ICs were never big air fighters anyway so I'm not really sure how this would fair.

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I actually liked the IC airgame. Since all people are trying to do is avoid being grabbed, i think it's pretty important.

I don't have a good feeling about Brawl ICs

nice sig zjiin!

The amazing determination of IC mains here has convinced me that I will finally put Ice Climbers on my list of mains. Oh, how they stir my heart!

Witchking_of_Angmar said:

The amazing determination of IC mains here has convinced me that I will finally put Ice Climbers on my list of mains. Oh, how they stir my heart!

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Lol forreal.

You are cool.

Witchking_of_Angmar said:

The amazing determination of IC mains here has convinced me that I will finally put Ice Climbers on my list of mains. Oh, how they stir my heart!

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YAY! :D

From what I could see:

1. Fsmash range nerfed...? Check 0:32 to clarify. I may be wrong. I think it's a little faster too though.
2. That little effect makes it hard for me to tell whether Bair's range has been decreased or not.
3. Nana doesn't automatically stand when knocked down. Good or bad? Bad for me. I enjoyed making nana Leap towards opponents and blizzard while I tech-rolled toward them.
4. FAir doesn't have that horrendous wind-up lag anymore.
5. Bounce taunt is too cute. ^_^
6. Nair is a lot faster. The hard swing out comes a lot quicker.
7. Bthrow can't tech-chase anymore! D:
8. Does Fair still spike? I didn't see one in the Chu video. Does it?

Seriously though, could someone give me the link to ChuDat's Brawl IC battle? I've searched youtube twice already...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87mvjVxr5o

Here is the link, for a bit there I was watching some ICs and I was getting pretty discouraged, after seeing this though I am feeling a lot better, I know there are plenty of trixies left to find and with pivot desynchs and what not, obviously tech chasing is all but gone so there is a skill I spent a long time on that wont be helpful anymore, but hopefully ICs are on more of an even level with other characters from now on.

Binx said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87mvjVxr5o

Here is the link, for a bit there I was watching some ICs and I was getting pretty discouraged, after seeing this though I am feeling a lot better, I know there are plenty of trixies left to find and with pivot desynchs and what not, obviously tech chasing is all but gone so there is a skill I spent a long time on that wont be helpful anymore, but hopefully ICs are on more of an even level with other characters from now on.

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I don't wanna sound like a Debbie Downer, but this video didn't fill me with much confidence. Its so painful to watch ICs speed cut down so much.

I love the IC's anyway, plus they don't look that bad to me. That's probably because my whole IC play didn't revolve around wavedashing. But for all you wavedashers, (everyone else) you can do it, just remember... There are two of them!!!

kackamee said:

I love the IC's anyway, plus they don't look that bad to me. That's probably because my whole IC play didn't revolve around wavedashing. But for all you wavedashers, (everyone else) you can do it, just remember... There are two of them!!!

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Unfortunately now that most of our reliable desyncs are gone it's more like there is only one of them-and it is slow and dies easily. This makes me sad.

Nana can triple jump when Popo is high, and she can recover by herself.

I'd rather not dwell on their weaknesses. It's about accentuating a character's strengths in order to make a character good. From the looks of it, they still have grab desynch combos, we just need to find ways in order to set them up.

Chu's IC play style is not heavy on desynching; once desynchers start exploring the possibilities, I'm VERY sure we'll have a great character on our hands.

Glad I'm not the only one who wasn't encouraged by that video. I thought maybe I was just watching the wrong video or something...

This isn't looking good, if even ChuDat is having a hard time. I'm sure with time we can work everything out, but I hope the ICs won't become a lost cause.

I don't know why you guys are being so pessimistic about ICs in brawl, sure they are slower but their range is still good, their air game is improved above most characters, Marth and Peach are obviously still better but the fair being so fast is a huge improvement, also you can still smash other characters out of grabs and you can grab down throw smash still which is nice, their recovery is much better and I am sure with proper desynchs and some new practice with throws to combos the ICs could still easily have the deadliest grab game.

Also down mmnjkb503255454547861454545

The problem is ICs actually getting to grab someone. Without L canceling some characters will now feasibly be sheild grabbed, but against anyone else that outranges us we are completely shut down without wavedashing. IC's approach is terrible, our air game is subpar, and our slow roll and standing dodge can no longer be desynced out of. So we basically have to have super amazing mindgames or hope our opponent walks right into smash or grab range. I'm not being pessimistic; I love IC's and want them to be good in brawl, but I am being realistic and things aren't looking good.

Two things, however, can to my attention recently that give me a little hope. One is that I saw both ICs dsmash yoshi together for 43%. Another is that you can now control Nana's throw, which opens up a new and exciting chainthrowing horizon.

Wave smashing is out but it looks like you can do dashing shield smashes.
Doesn't move nearly as far, but it's a sliding smash...how can you complain? ;P
Also pivot desync ftw.

Finch you are forgetting that they buffed our projectiles, we have ways to MAKE people approach us now like fox had in melee, now that ice blocks dont pop you up a little bit they are much more usable as a camping tactic, also pretty much nothing outranges our short hopped blizzard so with proper spacing we should be able to use that to approach some characters.

sfox8 said:

I'm gonna stick with em no matter what.

I honestly don't think the ICs will be as nerfed as people seem to think. Plus, barely any of the people who have the game right now are huge IC mainers so we'll REALLy start seeing how good the ICs (as well as the other non-mainstream characters) are when the game is released in the US.

Either way, you're right. We're in for an interesting Brawl (u see wat i did thur?)

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so true. ICs rule!

i wanna stick wit wut ur saying ssbm but it's seems like their's little hope for the ice climbers. I luv em, they were my 2-3 main after Pika and Fox but without wavedashing and the fact that their slower really disapoints me. Chu was beaten by Falco who used to be a horrible match up against the ICs =(. Nevertheless i'll still play them no matter what!

I was a Melee IC main, but in Brawl I'm switching over to Toon Link. The IC's will still be my number 2 though. This thread has me rethinking my decision though!

I think one of the reasons that we're seeing alot of IC defections is because alot of the new characters are fan favorites. Let's face it: no one would say that the Ice Climbers are their favorite Nintendo characters. When given a chance to play as someone they really like, most people are going to bolt. At least that's what I did anyway.

Jam Stunna said:

I was a Melee IC main, but in Brawl I'm switching over to Toon Link. The IC's will still be my number 2 though. This thread has me rethinking my decision though!

I think one of the reasons that we're seeing alot of IC defections is because alot of the new characters are fan favorites. Let's face it: no one would say that the Ice Climbers are their favorite Nintendo characters. When given a chance to play as someone they really like, most people are going to bolt. At least that's what I did anyway.

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lol well unless Nintendo snags Gunstar Red or Blue, Gum from Jet grind Radio, or Ryo Hazuki, then none of the characters are my fan faves. I recognize and appreciate them, but they don't draw an emotional reaction. My closest to fan fave is toon link. And for some reason, I didn't enjoy playing him that much. D:

there are actually still a few chain grabs. at least one. where you grab, walk forward with nana and f throw into her grab. rinse and repeat over and over. i think we got a bit of a f smash buff to. plus nana and popo can ledge grab at the same time and up b doesnt leave us wide open anymore since we can attack after and it autograbs the ledge. i didnt read the posts before me so sorry if you've heard this already

I will continue to use the Icies, in melee, WD was of vital importance to the icies game, but since its gone in brawl, doesn't mean the Icies are screwed. in fact, i think that the icies are even better because of it. no one else has a WD, so its not a disadvantage to the icies, losing the WD. i think that the icies will are more potent than ever. the new game physics will force us to change our play style tremendously (i know for me personally, at least that i keep wanting to revert back to the old play-style with WD especially in a pinch, or panicked state so it will take time to get used to not having the WD) and I think that everyone that views the new icies as a disappointment or a downgrade are thinking this simply because you have a melee mindset and aren't looking at brawl as its own game. you want to keep comparing it to melee, where the game play is a LOT different. you need to stop comparing and start playing brawl as its own separate entity and then you will start to see, that the icies are still VERY good characters. IMO they will soon be Top-upper tiered characters. you all need to say good bye to the good old days of wave smashing and WD approach to grab game, and start looking at the new desynch possibilties in all of its glory. Ice Climbers RULE!!!!!

Binx said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87mvjVxr5o

Here is the link, for a bit there I was watching some ICs and I was getting pretty discouraged, after seeing this though I am feeling a lot better, I know there are plenty of trixies left to find and with pivot desynchs and what not, obviously tech chasing is all but gone so there is a skill I spent a long time on that wont be helpful anymore, but hopefully ICs are on more of an even level with other characters from now on.

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is it just me or does it look like nana's a little dumber than before. she looks like she gets lost a bit more