The Ask ______ Stuff about Doc Thread

Dogysamich · Nov 1, 2007

Cause ya know, just about every character has one of these, and we dont.

And it's pretty useful.

So, as people stuff about doc.

This isnt specifically questions to me, but to anybody in general.

Gea · Nov 2, 2007

What color do you play, and why? Somehow I'll guess green.

Itakio · Nov 2, 2007

In the case that this is supposed to be helpful to people new to the Doc, I'd like to ask - do his cape and/or the tornado improve recovery distance-wise?

eighteenspikes · Nov 2, 2007

Itakio said:
In the case that this is supposed to be helpful to people new to the Doc, I'd like to ask - do his cape and/or the tornado improve recovery distance-wise?

Yes, but the distance they give are not as useful as their capabilities for stalling. I believe it's like this -- to MAXIMIZE recovery, you should PTP as soon as knockback wears off, then double jump, cape at the apex of the jump, and up+b as late as a sweetspot will allow. However, in basically any other recovery situation where you aren't obviously dead, stalling becomes more important than distance optimization.

Gea · Nov 2, 2007

To put that a different way, in my matches I ONLY tornado if I have to, because I find it much more useful to try and outstall someone who is ledgehogging. Sometimes it really works.

Bullet Bill · Nov 2, 2007

Is dropping into marths upB with nair a good edgeguard? I've been trying it lately and it seems to work really well.

eighteenspikes · Nov 2, 2007

Yeah, the flying nair is a great situational edgeguard. I also use them to finish up juggles on floatier characters like Marth; when there's not enough knockback to set up a fair, an early nair is generally the best followup. I also ledgehop reverse nairs to interrupt space pets that over b above the ledge.

Dogysamich · Nov 2, 2007

I'll try that out myself. I've been tryin to find something good against stalling marths. >.>

___

Here's a question for somebody.

When you grab somebody, anybody at 0%. What's a good option OTHER than trying to regrab.?

I normally upsmash, but i dont like it because you cannot follow it very well, and I dont like u.tilt because you normally get interrupted when you try the second one.

gongbomb · Nov 2, 2007

I like to go for some shuffled uairs to juggle.

Rook · Nov 2, 2007

Dogy, when I throw someone, usually up at zero percent, I emmediatlly up-tilt. And most characters at suck a low percent it will uaually connect no matter ho they DI.
I just chainthrow a spacy.

Also, if it is a C.Falcon, I will:
Up-throw->Jab->Up-throw->Jab..... while following DI. It works well at low % when Falcon cant DI very far.

Yomi-no-Kuni · Nov 2, 2007

^
i´ll try that

i usualy do u/ d throw to utilt, aganist floatier characters 1 u tilt to uair...

sk8tinGam0r · Nov 8, 2007

0% i usually up tilt then depending on the char i decide what to do, falco and fox ill regrab and repeat till about 25% so its easier to chain throw. floaties ill uptilt to up smash to rack up the dmg. and by the way dogy u got a really sexy doc

St. Viers · Nov 8, 2007

How do you connect with an up-air that leads to a combo after a throw. It's been months now and I haven't figured it out. Do they just have to DI stupidly?

SmashMac · Nov 8, 2007

St. Viers said:
How do you connect with an up-air that leads to a combo after a throw. It's been months now and I haven't figured it out. Do they just have to DI stupidly?

This is pretty situational and depends on the character and their kind, whether it be fast-faller, weighted, floaty, etc. Usually against floaters like Marth or Peach for instance, I'll dthrow at around 40%, full jump a dair that they'll consume most of (because they're a floaty), and then fast fall the uair and then shffl a few uairs, and depending on their DI I'll finish with either a SH fair, full-hop fair, or whatever is best for that situation. There really aren't any static combos for Doc. I find most combos situational to begin with. That applies to all characters.

Sometimes you can get lucky if you start the right move at the correct %, you'll end up comboing. It really depends on your memorizing the correct %s to even begin with, or at least the range around them. In the end though, you have to consider the other person's smarts, DI, etc. That's why no combos really work consistently .... you will never know if your opponents DI is correct and there are so many ways of DIing each move that it's just best to look at the overall combo as a situation.

However I would like to say this, if you know the right %s and the right moves to do at those %s, the probability of the combo happening will go up, including great factors like DI. An example of this is CG combos. If you know to begin CGing Fox at 0% to 58%, and when you grab at 58%, you hit twice and throw him up, and whether he DIs it or not you know what to do, then you knew the entire situation and what was possible and probable as far as what your opponent could do, and therefore eliminated the chances by knowing the countermeasure for each chance. If the Fox DIs the throw, you can uair - fsmash (Eighteen Spikes), if he doesn't DI, you can utilt him with different angles of the utilt and then short-hop a fair.

My main point here is that combos are all situational, but what makes you better at them is knowing the possibilities and the probabilities of anything possible, and being able to counter them.

St. Viers · Nov 10, 2007

Thanks for the theory behind it. I guess the problem is I don't know the starting moves...<_<

I'll work on it though.

Desh. · Nov 10, 2007

heres a question...when using tornado for recovery...does anyone hold the controller differently to pbp ? or is it just really good smashing lol... in other words..is there any easier way to pbp...and if there is...how?

Dogysamich · Nov 10, 2007

whatever way allows you to tap b the fastest.

One thing to keep in mind is that the place where you are most likely to lose height is right after you start it.

Most people (myself included) tend to hesistate a bit before tapping to gain height from the tornado.

So make sure that you start tapping IMMEDIATELY after you initially press b.

Desh. · Nov 10, 2007

k i shall try also...is it smart to

say u jump over some1 and u could kill them with teh fair....but ur facing the wrong way in the air...so u cape to change directions sh(dont necessarily need to jump again if u have height i guess) and fair them?

are there anythings that could possibly get me punished? thats what i seem to do when i can..it works pretty good most of the time...any look on if thats really useful? i like tryin it instead of a bair or something..it works well for me just wanna make sure theres nothing dangerous or if i have a better option =D

i also do this sometimes after i'm coming down from really high ...normally from getting hit up obviously

Dogysamich · Nov 11, 2007

Gea said:
What color do you play, and why? Somehow I'll guess green.

Rofl, i completely missed this question.

Normally i play black because most other people i play against play a light colored character and i like contrast, but im not really too particular about colors. >.>

Yomi-no-Kuni · Nov 11, 2007

do you have a tip how to get the Uair out fast. after rejump, doing it with Cstick....?
it always takes me so long

oh yeah...
any tips on how to make sure you get the Fastfall down?
i always mess up due to the hitlag

answer appreciated! :D
yomi

Dogysamich · Nov 11, 2007

i personally use the c-stick and i just have fast (enough) hands to do it.

Some people use the control stick, but that requires more precision in the left thumb. >.>

As for fast falling, you have to wait and make sure you hit the shield before you fastfall (or do it normally if you hit them with the later part of the attack)

The best way to practice this is to just sit with a lvl 1 computer, and u.air the crap out of him. Get him up to about 60% and see if you cant juggle him across the stage. If you're having problems getting atleast 2, you're probably hitting down too early so it dont register.

Gea · Nov 11, 2007

I control stick. *****es.

abit_rusty · Nov 11, 2007

Is Doc a viable sheik counter? I suppose you can take the word "counter" lightly in this case, maybe the term "easier to handle sheik with" works. My CF loses often to sheik but my Doc is also pretty decent...At the last tourney I went to I debated on using Doc vs a Sheik whom I knew was good, but ended up using CF and getting *****.

St. Viers · Nov 11, 2007

I like the sheik doc matchup, but my brother mains sheik...<_<

she can't combo him as well as most other characters (floaty and good stun recovery+n-air interrupting), can't be cg'ed, and her excellent gimping isn't as useful as against other character (most people can easily gimp doc's recovery/abuse it in some way).

She can be cg'ed. She is cape-able. can be comboed (relatively easily).

She is of course still hard to keep up with, and her needles are a b****, but not impossible by any stretch

WhatIsPie? · Nov 11, 2007

So, is there a proper way to reset invincibility frames while on the edge? I can't seem to do it correctly, especially against Marths. For example, I kill Marth. He respawns. I jump on the edge and do repeated ledge hops to reset my invincibility frames over and over again. Marth always manages to knock me away from the edge with his dtilt.

Don't suggest a better way to run away from Marth during his respawn invincibility. I have a few others. I just want to know how to reset invincibility frames properly.

otg · Nov 12, 2007

Maybe you could try to space him out with some Ledgehop Pillspamming, grabbing the ledge each time. You could also try DIing away from the stage with a Dair and than grab the ledge for invincibility frames just to fend him off. Best way back onto the stage is a ledgehop waveland while your invincibility frames are still intact.

scha-k-47 · Nov 12, 2007

Dogy, my question to you is how did you get to be so **** awesome?

Desh. · Nov 12, 2007

steroids

/10 char

Yomi-no-Kuni · Nov 12, 2007

WhatIsPie? said:
So, is there a proper way to reset invincibility frames while on the edge? I can't seem to do it correctly, especially against Marths. For example, I kill Marth. He respawns. I jump on the edge and do repeated ledge hops to reset my invincibility frames over and over again. Marth always manages to knock me away from the edge with his dtilt.

Don't suggest a better way to run away from Marth during his respawn invincibility. I have a few others. I just want to know how to reset invincibility frames properly.

no, you will always be vunerable if your doing this

but try to let yourself fall down and sweetspot with UpB, this might be a bit safer, and is a lot easier to tech incase you´re hit (imo)

$hYne · Nov 12, 2007

Yomi-no-Kuni said:
no, you will always be vunerable if your doing this

but try to let yourself fall down and sweetspot with UpB, this might be a bit safer, and is a lot easier to tech incase you´re hit (imo)

yeah and it is a lot easier to punish/gimp ...

Dogysamich · Nov 12, 2007

abit_rusty said:
Is Doc a viable sheik counter? I suppose you can take the word "counter" lightly in this case, maybe the term "easier to handle sheik with" works. My CF loses often to sheik but my Doc is also pretty decent...At the last tourney I went to I debated on using Doc vs a Sheik whom I knew was good, but ended up using CF and getting *****.

If you ask me, i said no. Sure Doc can chaingrab sheik, but so can ganon, and a solo popo. Sheik still has a ******** range, tilts that lead to f.airs, a good jab'n'grab game, etc etc. You yourself might be better with doc than CapFal vs sheik, that's perfectly understandable, but doc sure as hell doesnt "counter" sheik. I dont even call the matchup easy. (Then again, i say NONE of docs matchups are easy)

WhatIsPie? said:
So, is there a proper way to reset invincibility frames while on the edge? I can't seem to do it correctly, especially against Marths. For example, I kill Marth. He respawns. I jump on the edge and do repeated ledge hops to reset my invincibility frames over and over again. Marth always manages to knock me away from the edge with his dtilt.
Don't suggest a better way to run away from Marth during his respawn invincibility. I have a few others. I just want to know how to reset invincibility frames properly.

Yeah, hate to burst your bubble; but unless im mistaken, doc has no infinite stall. You MIGHT be able to do one if you ledgehop stall frameperfectly (i was actually messin around with this the other night and i convinced myself it works), but i dont think it works.

The best thing you can do is just get away and try to read attacks.

Jump on a platform and lightshield. He will either hit you, or he'll grab you. But to grab you, he has to jump on the platform, which is blaringly obvious.

Just dont spam roll. XD

scha-k-47 said:
Dogy, my question to you is how did you get to be so **** awesome?

[rant]
XD, ya know, it's really dumb luck. I dont really consider myself awesome cause im not winning tournies, or knockin big name people around; but it's really dumb luck that i am where i am.

I learned all of the universal techs (wavedash, l-canceling, etc etc) years ago from reading smashboards, watching videos, and practicing myself. I learned a few of the advanced techs ( like SHL) from videos; most a majority of them i didnt learn till a year or 2 ago when i started going to tournies and getting "manhandled"

..... (i quote manhandled cause, imo; i still get manhandled in tournies).

But yeah, i've NEVER had anybody actually teach me anything, but i'm always teaching people stuff (im teaching about 6/7 different people right now). Reason for that is because of my location.

..--shrug-- i dunno how to explain it other than; "Really, it's just dumb luck. I still get obliterated by people i 'shouldnt ever drop a game to', and i can beat people that i 'shouldnt be able to touch'."

[/rant]

Yomi-no-Kuni · Nov 12, 2007

$hYne said:
yeah and it is a lot easier to punish/gimp ...

how´s that mah frien? xD
except if they cliffhange you, you can tech everything they throw at you...
and you can be cliffhangered if you regrab the ledge too....
if you do the UpB before they cliffhanger, you can hit them if you´re fast enough, or you land on the stage and eat an attack... which you will eventually if you spam 2-3 ledgehops in the time you can drop/upB

so
whats your point except sounding smart?

l3lue2ain · Nov 12, 2007

I have two questions My first question is how is the double back kid off the stage with dr.mario done properly sometimes i fall straight down sometimes it works. The next question is how do i do the down b recover when i
m off the stage and how applicable is it in a real game?

Hinosaki · Nov 12, 2007

Any tips with SHFFLing u-Air? I tend to tilt it too high and double-jump most of the time.

Also, even though I've read the sticky, are there any tips against Peach players? Namely one who likes D-Smashing a lot.

Desh. · Nov 12, 2007

^^^ sweet spot, dont get hit , nair approach., up pill game, and fair. that sums it up kinda for the d smash happy peach...well..thats what i do and it seems to work

abit_rusty · Nov 13, 2007

Use c-stick for uair shffls.

St. Viers · Nov 13, 2007

l3lue2ain said:
I have two questions My first question is how is the double back kid off the stage with dr.mario done properly sometimes i fall straight down sometimes it works. The next question is how do i do the down b recover when i
m off the stage and how applicable is it in a real game?

1. Couple of ways depending on your height.
--A. jump off doing on, do another, and then jump back up and use upB
--B. Do one, jump back towards the stage while C-sticking the other, and use upB

2. Mash B like mad, and hold towards the stage with the analog stick while doing so.

SmashMac · Nov 13, 2007

Hinosaki said:
Any tips with SHFFLing u-Air? I tend to tilt it too high and double-jump most of the time.

Also, even though I've read the sticky, are there any tips against Peach players? Namely one who likes D-Smashing a lot.

As far as shffling uairs, sounds like you're not using the c-stick. Use the c-stick. It's important.

Now, as far as Peach goes. She tends to love the stick, if you know what I mean .... >_>'. I usually space with bairs, and full jump dairs a lot. Pill approach is nice but it can be countered with float/float-cancelled bairs or nairs. Usually you want to space with bairs, ftilts, fairs, utilts and come down from the air with uairs. Usually when I land a grab on her I'll do something along the lines of the following:

1.) 0%, grab, dthrow, full jump dair (she can nair out of this if she knows what she's doing)
2.) 35%, dthrow sh uair to see if I can shffl her with some uairs and juggle her until I can land a finisher or something (depending on the situation).
3.) 85 - 100%, dthrow, full jump fair (following DI).

Yeah usually when you grab her at around 90%, you can dthrow her to full jump fair which will most likely kill her. Just make sure you follow her DI since (if she knows what she's doing) she will probably try and DI behind you.

When you see her camping on a platform, don't go near her unless you can reach her with the highest tip of your utilt. Even then it's just overall safe to stay away from her and pill-spam (correctly).

Another thing I'd suggest doing is banning Mute City as a counterpick. Terrible stage to fight Peach on. If you do that though, beware of Dreamland 64 and Kongo Jungle (the level with terrible edges, like a 1000 X worse than Battlefield).

If you land the first part of the nair on her when she's around 90%, I'm pretty sure she'll be sent in range of a full-jump fair.

Hope that helps.

Dogysamich · Nov 13, 2007

Speaking of following DI with f.airs, here's a random tip from dogy that I learned the hard way.

Do not try to d.throw -> f.air jiggs from %70-%80. They can rest before your f.air comeso ut.

... i said i learned that the hard way for a reason. XD

Dogysamich · Nov 13, 2007

SmashMac said:
Another thing I'd suggest doing is banning Mute City as a counterpick. Terrible stage to fight Peach on. If you do that though, beware of Dreamland 64 and Kongo Jungle (the level with terrible edges, like a 1000 X worse than Battlefield).

**** the other stages.

Ban mute city.

Period.

Unless you youself have a sick peach/jiggs; ban mute city.

I shouldnt have to reiterate this, and $mac shouldnt have to say it.

OH DEAR GOD. >.>

The Ask ______ Stuff about Doc Thread

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